44 frustration

[Trailblazer]

I have been having a ball shooting the old Winchester 73 I bought recently. I have been wanting to shoot the levergun silhouette match and finally got the opportunity yesterday. The rifle is very accurate and is made to shoot off hand and I expected to break 30 with it. As it happened I only shot 26. Part of the problem was that a new shooter walked up just before the relay started. He had no idea how to shoot the course and the relay started while I was explaining to him what to do. I didn't have time to get set and get into my rhythm and had to rush to get five rounds off. So I missed three chickens to start. I should have told him to watch one relay to see how it is done, but hind sight is 20-20!

The next nail in the "30" coffin happened on rams. I cast my first bullets for the rifle from wheel weight. I had to cast more for the match so I cast them from range scrap which is mostly black powder cartridge rifle silhouette bullets. I figured that would make a good alloy for 44 WCF. I had enough wheel weight bullets for one animal so I used them for turkeys since that is the smallest target and I used a few more for sighters. I had my ram sight picture all worked out for the wheel weight bullets and verified it before the match. The bullet hits just a few inches above point of aim at 200 meters so I hold just a hair up into the belly. The range scrap bullets hit considerably higher. They were over the back even when I held on the rail. To hit I had to hold under the rail. So anyway I missed to many rams to salvage "30"! Next time! Whenever that is since hunting season opens in three weeks and I won't be playing on the silhouette range for a while.

This whole 44 WCF thing is new territory for me. I have never played with a pistol type cartridge before. I usually use a 30-30 at around 1700 fps for the silhouette game. I don't have a proper 44WCF mold so I am loading a Saeco 441 at 256 grains with 6 grains Unique. I haven't chronoed them but they are really loafing along out there. It did heat up drastically during the match. When I shot sighters the temp was in the 70's. By the time I got to rams the temp was pushing 100. The thing is my turkey load was right on with the wheel weight bullets so I don't think temperature had much to do with the flatter trajectory although I suppose the velocities are really dying between 150 and 200 meters and any temp differences would be magnified there. I think most of it it has to be the different alloy. The range scrap is softer than the wheel weights since a lot of the black powder shooters use a lead/tin alloy. The other indication that things were different with the range scrap is that I had a wet lube ring around the muzzle. The muzzle stayed dry with wheel weight bullets.

I don't understand why the softer bullets shoot so much flatter and why I would have a lube ring with them and not with the wheel weight. The bullets are sized the same and use the same lube. I wouldn't expect 6 grains of Unique to bump them. The bore is rough in the old rifle and resembles sand paper more than anything else. It amazes me it shoots so well. It must be the slow twist that saves it. But, I digress. I am puzzled! The softer bullets seem to be sealing better but I don't know why.

[Bass Ackward]

Remember, when bores were made rough for lead, they used pure. After it smoothed up, they took their guns in to be freshened up. This amounts to being roughed up again.

It can be confusing. But the bottom line is that you have to seal if your running slow and your bore is rough. But you need to be smooth if you want high pressure. Everything else falls somewhere in between rough and smooth, slow and fast.

[Trailblazer]

You ain't helpin any Bass! Rough for slow?

[JesterGrin_1]

If you read what Bass said it does make sense. He just puts things odd at times lol.

So what he is saying is that wayyyyyyyyy back the bores would be a bit rough due to the way the were cut for the rifle. And they used what you said very soft lead so it takes much less pressure for pure lead or say a 20 to 1 mix of lead to seal and also the speed at which these pure lead bullets were pushed were slow.

If you have a smooth bore you can push them a bit faster and have less leading as well if you use a harder alloy bullet then they must be pushed faster to fill out the bore.

So to be honest you really need to try and pick which alloy you wish to shoot and then work up a load with that. As you did notice that when you change the alloy of the lead point of aim will at times be way off.

So what I am saying is try and be consistant and only change one thing at a time. Yes this takes work lol.

If you look through this forum 44MAN as well as Myself worked long and hard with the 1894 Marlin in .44 Mag. I put roughly 500 rounds through mine until I was happy. :)

[runfiverun]

if it were mine and i had access to softer material that i could count on to consistent
that is what i would use in that rifle, just judging from the lube star,and the better velocity
it seems to me that the rifle is telling you what it wants.

[Trailblazer]

Yes the flatter trajectory is a real plus since with the wheel weight bullets I had to shim under the rear sight elevator to be on at 200 meters. Probably don't need the shims with the soft bullets. Either bullet shoots very well. Accuracy is not a problem and the fouling looks the same other than the lube ring. I have a fair stash of the range scrap since I always pick up whatever I see on top of the ground after a match and I have never used any of it. I know where there is more! I will melt the whole collection down together to get a consistent batch.

The thing I am not used to is how much difference in trajectory there is for what seem to be minor changes in bullet and powder. We are talking about 1-1/2 to 2 feet at 200 meters with just a change in bullet hardness. I guess it is just the low velocity. I ought to take the Chrony up this week and clock it. It would have been interesting to see the difference in velocity between the wheel weight and range scrap but the wheel weight bullets are all gone.

I am trying to visualize why the softer bullets seal better and apparently go faster. The lower engraving pressure makes sense and maybe that is the key. The wheel weight bullets apparently leak more, maybe because the wheel weight tears more when it enters the rifling? I find it hard to believe that there is much obturation with 6 grains Unique in that large of a case but the lesson in all this seems to be that small changes make a big difference, so just a little more obturation may be enough to matter.

At any rate it is a fun gun and it has given me a new appreciation for 19th century engineering. We all know the old Sharps rifles were very accurate but a Winchester 73? I think this rifle would rival a Sharps at 200 meters. It was a real treat when I could make a good shot and see the bullet strike the center of the silhouette. It is so slow that it is not a problem to see them hit out at 150 meters and energy is so low that the targets take time to fall.

[runfiverun]

they are engraving the rifling better sealing better and you aren't burning your lube with hot gas.
also the boolits are probably a bit larger from the mold.
my 44-40 will shoot my softer boolit sized at 428 better then commercial at 429.
you could also cut your ww's 50-50 with pure and 1% tin for a bit of re-peatability.

[Trailblazer]

Bullet size is the same. Both were bumped up in a .431" die. The softer bullets do bump easier. The wheel weight cast at .4285-.429" from the original mold. That is small so I Beagled the mold. The range scrap cast at .429" after the tape got compressed. So no gain in diameter with the alloy change. Weight is the same too. I will Beagle it again before I cast more.

[VTDW]

I have a suggestion and it is with all due respect. Here it is. Go back and re-read what JesterGrin_1 posted and let it sink in for a while. I have to do that sometimes myself. He gave what I think is an answer but we may not be understanding the question if you have one. Sometimes it is hard on this Internet to get across our points or questions.

Dave