TC's QLA Muzzle

[54bore]

First off i will say i am not at all fond of the QLA, i only own 1 rifle that has it, a New Englander. I understand its intention is to start a Maxi Ball easily, and it definitely does that. Back in the winter I gave my dad a really nice .54 Cal Hawken Barrel, This barrel has the QLA Muzzle, I got a decent deal on the rifle, all i wanted it for was the stock (I used this stock for my Green Mountain LRH .45 Cal barrel to build my 'Hotrod Hawken') Dad and i have shot together a few times, dad shot the barrel VERY well each time, his load is 100 grains of Goex 2F powder, a wool over powder wad, and Lyman Plains bullet, he also shoots a TC Maxi ball, accuracy is very similar with both bullets, the Lyman plains bullet might have a slight edge, but its close. We shot together today and i had him try my .060 Vegetable over powder wads that i make with a 9/16 Hole punch, the rifle shot ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE, and my dad is an AWESOME open sight shooter. This was only 50 yards, dad shot 4 or 5 shots and they were all over the place, one shot hit the ground in front of the target, i seen the grass part! The bullet actually ricocheted off the ground and tumbled through the target! The only thing different was the .060 Vegetable fibre over powder wad, he switched back to the wool over powder wads and shot a group, the rifle shot great again! The Vegetable Fibre wad is DEFINITELY a NO GO in his rifle with the QLA muzzle! Has Anyone else had anything like this happen? I would not buy a TC with a QLA Muzzle unless it was DARN cheap, and i needed it for the stock and parts.

[54bore]

My Lyman Plains Hunter 1:32 fast twist .54 Cal shoots AWESOME with these exact .060 Vegetable fibre OP wads, look at the group i shot yesterday in my other thread.

[triggerhappy243]

funny you bring this up. a local has posted a new englander rifle for sale. $250.00......... looks clean. what do you think?

[Saxtonyoung]

My experience with a TC QLA has been with a 45 caliber Omega. The only bullets I ever used with this gun is a 420 grain Lyman 457193 sized to .450 for a slip fit . The other bullet I used was a 225 grain 40 caliber bullet I use in a sabot. I had excellent results with both combinations out to 150 yards.

[bubba.50]

the QLA is just somethin' that is there or it ain't. pay it no mind & it'll cause you no problems whatsoever. sounds to me like yer wads were the problem with dad's gun & the QLA had nothin' to do with it.

[54bore]

funny you bring this up. a local has posted a new englander rifle for sale. $250.00......... looks clean. what do you think?

Personally i would AVOID it like the plague, its my least favorite TC, They are a meat potatoes gun. You have to pull the tang to remove the lock, kind of a mickey mouse setup in my opinion. A New Englander wouldn't make a knot in the buttstock of a Renegade or Hawken

[Good Cheer]

New Englanders? I love 'em except when they have a QLA.
A .54 with the QLA became my heptagonal groove .458 bore.
196349

When talking with the TC shop about the QLA, was surprised find out that the square bottom on that counterbore was by intent.
Someone was making goofy decisions at TC.

Happened to pick up a right hand .50 a while back with the idea of using a mag spark and a tang peep with globe front on a longer barrel. Got the parts except deciding upon the caliber... maybe a .47 bore for those .476 molds? Got a .465 ball mold sitting around to use with one also. Maybe so. A longer barreled .460 bore would likely be more useful.

[Saxtonyoung]

Heptagonal - your bore is 7 sided ?

I thought Witworth's hexagonal barrel was interesting.

[Good Cheer]

Well, the "grooves" are shallow trapezoids in cross section with the sides darn near pointing at each other and the geometry worked out to a seven sided polygon more so than a round bore with grooves. The corner of the grooves are effectively a little bulge at the points of the polygon. After seeing how it worked out it gives me pause in planning a similar sized bore as the effect is certainly gratuitous towards cleaning. Reckon that if a body properly pondered the matter some benefit could be derived also towards minimizing the of amount boolit expansion needed to seal off the bore as the "bulges" aren't needed.
Last bore I designed was a .52 and more of a shallow mutli-groove. That works well for the large diameter. If I go for a longer barrel .46 then the seven sided bore is going to get looked at for sure. Or eight sides? I just don't know.

[54bore]

Me and the New Englander just aren't a good fit, I don't like the feel of the wrist, i dont like the way they are put together, i HATE the single trigger, these guns are lightweight and kick noticeably harder than my Hawken or Renegades, 95 grains of swiss 2F behind a 460 Grain bullet MIGHT possibly cause you to forget where you parked your car? Idahoron drilled and tapped the Tang on my New Englander, I mounted a Lyman 57SML on it, with Lyman 17AHB Globe which is quite low for this particular gun, it works awesome for me, but to be safe i would advise the little taller 17AML Globe on this particular rifle.

I can't make myself like the QLA muzzle, in my opinion it was a bad idea. Why can i shoot these Vegetable fibre over powder wads in 2 of my 54s with rifling to the muzzle, but my dad Absolutely can NOT shoot them through his QLA muzzle? I just shot under a 1" Group easily at 50 Yards with my Lyman GP Hunter, And i also shoot an old Pre warning Renegade .54 really well, both with the Vegetable fibre over powder wads, My dad couldn't hit a piece of Plywood yesterday, with a proven barrel/load. I think Gasses are escaping differently each time the bullet and Wad enter the QLA causing the bullet to go Ape ****

[OverMax]

Seems to me there's been allot of belly aching over the years by some T/C owners over that one inch loss of barrel the QLA drilling took. Poor QLAs been blamed for so many inaccurate shots and down range terminal disappointments that~~~ honestly I'd like to have a nickel for each one of those complaints I've heard and read. Although it is unusual.
Such a disappointing T/C QLA equipped firearm is still one of the most desired manufactured B/P firearm/s to this day.

BTW: I've always desired to own a New Englander model knowing they had the ability to change-out its rifled barrel to a choked shotgun barrel at whim. That rifle would have been the cats meow for me up in "my neck of the woods."

[koger]

Well, I have had 2 NE's, both .50, that shot lights out, for hunting, both had the QLA. They would shoot several load combos well, but neither would shoot the Powerbelts well. I have 2 TC Omegas, that are among the most accurate ML's I have ever shot, period, both with QLA, they don't shoot Powerbelts well either. About everything else I have tried, shoots in them, to within1" or so, for 3 shots at 100yds, and my best loads, shoot under 3" @ 300yds. Triggerhappy, if the NE is in very good condition, buy it, will only go up in price, good investment! I recently had a guy, who had a TC Omega, that would not shoot his favorite slug well, I cut the QLA off at his request, recrowned the barrel, drilled and tapped it, replaced front sight. With the Lyman .50 plains slug, oiled veg. fiber wad, and 90grs of 2ffg, literally eats a ragged hole at 100yds, scoped.

[54bore]

BTW: I've always desired to own a New Englander model knowing they had the ability to change-out its rifled barrel to a choked shotgun barrel at whim. That rifle would have been the cats meow for me up in "my neck of the woods."

I will admit the choked 12 Gauge barrel i USE to own for my New Englander was kinda cool, and i was able to pattern it VERY well, looking back I probably should have kept the 12 Gauge barrel and designated my New Englander as a BP Shotgun.

[bubba.50]

funny you bring this up. a local has posted a new englander rifle for sale. $250.00......... looks clean. what do you think?


I wouldn't want to pay $250.00 for it unless it was in absolutely 'like new' condition & had an awesome piece of wood in the stock but, other than that, there's absolutely nothin' wrong with the New Englander. they ARE a bit light so, ya probably wouldn't want it for yer heavy-load gun. as to the non-issue about the tang, properly maintained there is no need for frequent lock removal. and if it's that much problem for ya, file enough off the bottom of the shield to where tang don't need removed to take out the lock and touch it up with a bit of cold blue.

[54bore]

I wouldn't want to pay $250.00 for it unless it was in absolutely 'like new' condition & had an awesome piece of wood in the stock but, other than that, there's absolutely nothin' wrong with the New Englander. they ARE a bit light so, ya probably wouldn't want it for yer heavy-load gun. as to the non-issue about the tang, properly maintained there is no need for frequent lock removal. and if it's that much problem for ya, file enough off the bottom of the shield to where tang don't need removed to take out the lock and touch it up with a bit of cold blue.

That's a DARN good idea bubba!! I like to be able to easily access my lock, and having a tang mounted Lyman 57 on mine makes removing the tang a PITA! I have a project now, i will probably do this today

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

First off i will say i am not at all fond of the QLA,

...SNIP
while my BP knowledge/experience is limited, I'd like to share my little bit of experience with QLA.
(besides the gun in the story below, I've owned 4 other ML long guns, none of those had QLA)

Years ago...like mid 1990s, I bought a Seneca 45 from a fella trying to pawn 4 long guns at the LGS...the LGS offered $100 for all 4, the fella refused. As he walked out the door, I followed. I asked him how much he needed for the Seneca? After a bit of negotiation, I handed him $90 cash for it. At that time, I was real new to Muzzle loaders(only shot my friends TC Hawkin a few times) so I didn't know what to look for when buying a used gun. Well, the barrel was a sewer pipe...a really really bad sewer pipe.

After I buried a brass jag in the bottom of the barrel, then totally ruining the barrel by trying to remove the breach plug while the barrel was clamped in my harbor freight Vice...well that should be enough said on that [smilie=b: The gun, then sat in the corner for about a year, til I heard of Fox Ridge outfitters at a gunshow (yes, this was before the internet...well, before I spent time on the internet anyway). I ordered a 36 cal QLA barrel. It was a dream to load a patched RB and was very accurate. I had the 36 Maxi-ball mold (that I sold you) and never got it to shoot good, but I never tried adding a wad, just pushed the lubed conical onto the powder.

[54bore]

Anyone ever done a trigger job on a New Englander? After shooting good set triggers it is REALLY tough for me to grab this New Englander with single trigger and like it, I let my dad shoot it yesterday, he looked around at me and said 'wow, i don't remember that trigger being that stiff?' My dad is who gave me the New Englander so at one time he knew it fairly well, but he has shot his Renegade with set trigger long enough now that the New Englander felt horrible. I think i could learn to like this little New Englander ok with the Tang modified to easy access the lock, and a decent trigger pull

[Saxtonyoung]

I right there with you as far as disliking the single trigger on these guns. I own 2 White Mountain Carbines that have the single trigger and it definitely takes getting use . I own 3 Renegade stocks and purposely avoided the single trigger models when I bought them.

[54bore]

bubba.50, Thank ya for the fix idea on the Tang, it worked flawless! Now i can easily access my lock without ever removing the Tang (I HATED doing it with a hard mounted Tang Peep)

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[54bore]

And last pic, i need to find another old style Tall Hammer, this one works fine, but I'd prefer the old tall one, i know they are interchangeable cuz ive tried it, i just don't wanna rob one off My Hawken, or Renegades

196377

[54bore]

Interesting read on the QLA i just came across

emrah wrote:
Maybe I should rephrase my title. I know what the QLA is, and I've seen the diagrams posted here by somebody (sorry, I can't remember who) that shows how the QLA is offset from the barrel rifling.

Here are my questions:

1. Are ALL T/C's with QLA's off-center? I don't understand how a barrel's rifling can be made (cut, forged, etc.), but for some reason, the QLA is off-center. I mean, it obviously goes in some sort of lathe or fixture, correct?

2. Even IF the QLA is off center, why does it affect conicals and not sabot rounds? Isn't the inside diameter of the QLA larger than the sabot or conical's diameter? In other words, isn't the QLA nothing more than a really deep recessed muzzle crown?

Thanks,

Emrah


This is copied and pasted here from another thread - see if this might help you with some of your questions..

The 'crown' at the bottom of the QLA - is exactly the problem. TC understands this and knows it. That is why they will tell that their rifles are for sabots and not conicals.

Here is what I am trying to convey...

The way TC chooses to bore and install lands and grooves is different that most other barrel manufactures. What they choose to works very well but on occasion the bore does not come out in the middle of the barrel. They have a +/- number of thousands that it can be off center. The fact that the bore might be off-center to the barrel has nothing to do with accuracy at this point. It will shoot sabots and conicals equally well. The problem is that for most consumers the cosmetics of the bore being off-center would not be acceptable. To hide this slight problem TC chose to install the QLA to cover the slight descrepency.

This does not happen in every TC bore it does in some.

Here is a picture of a cut off QLA... I believe in this picture you can see that bore is just slightly off center of the barrel.

Image

While on this end the QLA looks just fine at it install in the center of the bore.

Image

Then this is the picture of the bore recrowned and now able to shoot conicals as well as sabots, but notice it is still slightly off center...

Image

I talked to a TC Tech about all of this and from that conversation I created this simplistic picture as a representation of the problem.

Image

Again TC is aware of this and if you were to call them they would tell that their rifles are built for sabots.

I would also tell you that you do not find this in all TC/QLA rifles but enough of them to make you a little leary of the problem.

CVA uses and al lot of other companies, such a
Green Mountian Barrels choose to use a different type of boring to insure this problem does not exist. Yes CVA uses a form of QLA but the bore and the QLA are concentric - not a problem...
Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast
Top

[54bore]

196427

[idahoron]

I am not real wild about the single trigger. I did alter mine to help a little.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Guard4_zpscf0d730c.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Guard8_zpse8477b28.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Guard9_zpse1ea2c42.jpg

[54bore]

Ron, I REALLY like that finger hook! Did you use anything special? Or just cut a piece of metal from scratch and make the bend? I would love to do this to my New Englander, metal work and welding are not something i am comfortable with, i have a friend here that could do this for me tho. I copied your pics to show him. When you get use to a Renegade/Hawken with the finger hook it's tough to grab a rifle without one, i use the hooks to pull the rifle into my shoulder good and snug

[idahoron]

That is just mild steel. I brazed it and filled holes with two part epoxy. Then I painted it.

[Good Cheer]

New Englander with a .458 bore barrel, soft cast 45-70 boolits and plenty of FFg is a :happy dance: .
A longer barrel, maybe thirty inches, could be even better. Much more and it might get muzzle heavy.

[54bore]

That is just mild steel. I brazed it and filled holes with two part epoxy. Then I painted it.

This is definitely on the 'to do list' for my little New Englander!

[54bore]

New Englander with a .458 bore barrel, soft cast 45-70 boolits and plenty of FFg is a :happy dance: .
A longer barrel, maybe thirty inches, could be even better. Much more and it might get muzzle heavy.

Good Cheer, Do you do any work on your New Englander triggers? I pulled the sear today and used Flitz metal polish on a polishing wheel in my dremel and gave it a REALLY nice high lusture polish, it definitely feels better to me, but stil nothing like my set triggers, its tough for me to like the single non set trigger after a steady diet of shooting my set triggers. If this little New Englander had a Set trigger i could learn to like it a BUNCH better

[koger]

Why not buy a set or single set trigger, they work great, easy to install.

[725]

Question -- Has that finger hook ever grabbed anything (clothes, possibles bag, etc) and interfered with a shot? I sure like the look and like to shoot with that type of grip.

[54bore]

Why not buy a set or single set trigger, they work great, easy to install.

Set Trigger is in the works, Just found a like new set trigger and Renegade/Hawken Guard, Kill 2 birds with 1 stone here

[54bore]

Why not buy a set or single set trigger, they work great, easy to install.

Back to needing a set trigger, my deal fell through (outbid) Did TC make a Single Set trigger? I don't recall ever seeing one? Would the single you speak of be an easier instal than the double like the Hawken/Renegade? I can't imagine it being that major of an operation to do? If I don't feel comfortable with it i have a good friend here that i know can do it for me. I need to get out and shoot the New Englander this morning and see how much difference i notice from my high lustre polishing job on the sear end

[bubba.50]

I believe some people improve their T/C single-triggers by addin' or subtractin' metal from the trigger bar to get a better trigger to sear geometry. somethin' along the lines of waksupi's fix for the cva trigger listed above. I've got a couple extras that could be had cheap if anybody wants to experiment with it.

[idahoron]

Question -- Has that finger hook ever grabbed anything (clothes, possibles bag, etc) and interfered with a shot? I sure like the look and like to shoot with that type of grip.

I have never had it hook on anything. It is based off the finger hook on the two trigger models. If a person has trouble with a hawken you will probably have trouble with this one.

[idahoron]

I seem to remember that the parts in the lock and trigger are hardened but it is a surface harden. Once the hardness is gone the parts wear fast.

[54bore]

I seem to remember that the parts in the lock and trigger are hardened but it is a surface harden. Once the hardness is gone the parts wear fast.

I read that exact same thing, all i did was high lustre polish the tip of the sear with a polishing compound, its likely this rifle wont get shot enough to know if it's gonna wear or not. I might make a winter project out of this New Englander, Cutting the QLA off and recrowning the barrel would be the VERY first thing i did. I dont buy into the QLA, I think its a BAD deal, I have 4 other 54 Cals that shoot from good to exceptional, and NONE of them have the QLA muzzle.

[OverMax]

The so called problems a QLA causes are simply old wives tales.
Although a unaltered single bow trigger on White Mountain 54 I have keeps me from wanting to shoot it. There are a number of ways to smooth and reduce such a triggers let off but~~being a antiquated mechinsum many Smiths {hidden in the bushes here} familiar with those techniques will promote to a novice its often best not to tinker with things ~~like triggers..
Funny.~~Years ago there was a demand for adapted double set trigger frames retro fitter so to accommodate a single trigger only. As I recall such triggers for T/C Renegade & Hawken side-locks only >were sold by Fox Ridge Outfitters. And now Four Five Bore wants just the opposite for his New Englander. "Whats this world coming too."


:kidding:

[54bore]

The so called problems a QLA causes are simply old wives tales.
Although a unaltered single bow trigger on White Mountain 54 I have keeps me from wanting to shoot it. There are a number of ways to smooth and reduce such a triggers let off but~~being a antiquated mechinsum many Smiths {hidden in the bushes here} familiar with those techniques will promote to a novice its often best not to tinker with things ~~like triggers..
Funny.~~Years ago there was a demand for adapted double set trigger frames retro fitter so to accommodate a single trigger only. As I recall such triggers for T/C Renegade & Hawken side-locks only >were sold by Fox Ridge Outfitters. And now Four Five Bore wants just the opposite for his New Englander. "Whats this world coming too."


:kidding:

I dont know OverM, i just can't make myself trust it. Without Confidence in my gear i am defeated before i walk out the door, and i have zero confidence in the QLA muzzle. It really made me think the other day when my dad shot with me using my Vegetable Fibre wads, that rifle barrel has the QLA as well, Dad has proven the barrel to shoot very well (with wool felt wads) Then we try these Vegetable fibre Wads for something different and he couldn't of stayed on a sheet of plywood twice? I watched one shot part the weeds several feet low, hit the ground and tumbled through the target (50 yards)

I totally understand we changed Wads to try something different, BUT why will 4 different 54 Cals of mine YES 4 WITHOUT the QLA shoot either or? Vegetable fibre wads or the wool felt, it doesn't matter which i use? But in my dad's barrel with the QLA it will NOT shoot a Vegetable fibre wad, they fly all over the place (were talking several feet at just 50 yards!!) What else can it be besides the QLA?

This little New Englander has never shot anything worth a ****e, so I can't base anything off of it, but my dads rifle i can

[OverMax]

Staying on point with the QLA
You already know not all rifled B/P barrels are accustom to shooting hard/thick {smooth bore} wads.
Get the hack-saw out and cut that false muzzle off your Fathers rifle. I dare say your Father may not share the same thought.
As for me. The QLA eliminates my having to carry a short starter afield. And that's a good thing. Especially for this feller who has lost two short starters in a single hunting season. If you're still disappointed with the New Englander. Send it to Bubba. I'd most assuredly be willing to pay the postage costs on that generous deed.

[triggerhappy243]

could it be that the new englander bore is just a tad larger in diameter?

[54bore]

could it be that the new englander bore is just a tad larger in diameter?

Trigger, it's actually tighter, i have to size my bullets to .538 to fit good, i have one other .54 that is tighter bored like this, an old pre warning Renegade, the old Renegade shoots Vegetable fibre or wool felt wads equally well. I have no belief in this QLA garbage, If i decide to shoot this rifle again it will have lost its QLA