A subject that yas been beaten PAST death......

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

.....but I need advice/information due to crappy searchfu on any forum.

My 9mm's all slug out to .355, and the standard is to go to .357 boolit diameter size in this instance, correct?

Or am I remembering wrong, and it should only be .001 over bore size?

Or, (3rd question I have) does .002 over bore size not too bad of an idea?

Straight wheel weights for boolit material, 45-45-10 lube, no gas checks, and no super velocities pushed with these loads.

I just would like error on the side of "better" than too small and leading problems.

Thanks guys!

[35remington]

Standard advice is usually actually 0.001" over groove size. 0.001" over "bore size" would be hopelessly too small. If you can get it to fit in the chamber, try it. Then try the next bigger yet.

[osteodoc08]

Try and see. If it'll chamber it'll shoot.

Most size to .356 or .357 for 9mm.

There is a difference between bore and groove size.

[tazman]

I have two that slug at .355 and one that slugs at .357. I size everything at .357 if I size them at all. Often I just run them unsized since I tumble lube and the chambers are all large enough to accept whatever I can get inside the case. I have used up to .359.
The only one that gets special ammunition is my Range Officer. Not because of the diameter, but because of the OAL needed to feed properly.
The Beretta and the S&W eat anything with no problems.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I have 2 Witnesses and one SAR B6P (stilll a CZ75 clone) and just trying to find what will work with the least amount of problems.

I am going to try some at .358 (sizer I have on hand) and see if that works. If not, I will get another smaller sizer later.

Going to check out the expansion of my case sizing to make sure that is working with my cast boolit sizes, and those associated steps for loading.

Thanks for the replies.

[9.3X62AL]

If you slug the barrel's THROAT, rather than its grooves, your profits will increase markedly. Size bullets at or a few "tenths" above the throat's dimension. IOW, treat the 9mm like a rifle--because it acts like one (high pressures & fast twist rates).

I think A LOT of inaccuracy and bore leading gets created by misuse/overuse of die features, in particular TAPER CRIMPING. I am not talking about Lee factory crimp dies here--mostly this has to do with RCBS tooling. It is well-nigh impossible to simultaneously seat a bullet AND set a taper crimp on its case. Bullets will be marred and often reduced in diameter, which leads to inaccuracy and bore leading. Seat the bullet FULLY, IN A DISCRETE DIE STEP. Then, in a separate die step THAT DOES NOT MOVE THE BULLET, set a light taper crimp. LIGHT, as in " turn the case mouth flare straight"--not BURY THE CASE MOUTH INTO THE BULLET SIDEWALL. Using a caliper or micrometer to "set" taper crimp diameter is a fool's errand in 9mm, because of wide variations in case mouth thicknesses between case makes in 9mm.

Ditto for 40 S&W and 10mm. Thankfully, case dimensions in these calibers are not so varied between makers.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

9.3x62AL,

That is good advice.

I already seat and crimp in different steps, so this will be mostly a die adjustment practice then.

The fun part will be getting the throat measurement, at least for me.

[GhostHawk]

9.3x62AL nailed it IMO.

On most of my calibers I aim at 2 thousandths over. One or two do fine with 1. I have a couple, 2 for sure, both 9mm that need more than that.

At .356 it was keyhole and shotgun patterns. Factory loads were better on the keyhole but patterns were bigger than 1 lb coffee can's.

Once I started loading .359-.360 keyholing was gone and groups were smaller than coke cans. One of those is a Handi Rifle stub barrel, the other is a Hipoint C9 pistol.

I'll admit I did not slug either of those.
I just grabbed my .38 special/.357 mold and tried bigger ones.

And watched to make sure I was not crimping too much.

Bullet fit is king, get that right first. Then worry about the smaller variables like lube, powder, charge, crimp.

The good news is most guns will give you clue's if you don't already have your mind set.

[9.3X62AL]

9mm barrels can be diabolical. MOST OF THE TIME, throats I have slugged are just a few tenths larger than groove diameter, but there are exceptions to this--especially when dealing with wartime-manufactured sideiron produced by some of the countries who finished toward the back of the pack rather than gain the floral wreath in the winner's circle. I have slugged exactly ONE 9mm barrel whose grooves were at the .355" spec and whose throat was a couple clicks under .356". This is out of 40+ barrels I have messed with on my own and other people's pistols. This exemplary barrel was in a Springfield Armory Stainless Loaded 1911A1 9mm that I had a few months' possession of, and it remains the most accurate 9mm pistol I have ever fired. It was box-stock, too. An LAPD pal had a much-modded Beretta 92SB-F that could keep up with it, but that was a $3K pistol in 1990s dollars. No, I could not pry that SA 1911A1 away from its owner (he still has it, too) at any realistic price or trade offer. I would feel the same way, were it mine.

Back to that "Treat it like a rifle" idea. OK, bear with me. For bullet release in a rifle chamber, the ideal is usually believed to be about .001"-.0015" of radial expansion upon firing/total expansion .002"-.003" in order to get safe bullet release and maintain bore alignment. In that context, we need to be careful about that "fatter is better" mantra in 9mm barrels. It IS usually better, up to a point where bullet release is affected by some combination of over-fat bullet, over-thick case mouth, and/or under-sized chamber--this last bugbear is often seen in chrome-lined chambers meant to address corrosive priming.

This will first become apparent when your loads fail to fully chamber during feeding. THERE IS A PROBLEM when a case and bullet assembly tapered from nose tip to rim edge will not feed. Figure out where that round is hanging up--Magic Marker on the cartridge makes a great polygraph.

Make sure the bullet fits the throat. That established, make it your BASE LINE.

Separate your brass at least by maker. Using a tubing micrometer (or careful use of a caliper) determine case mouth thicknesses of each make. Do the math--bullet diameter + (case mouth diameter x 2) = X. Compare this result with the outside diameter of several cased fired in the pistol in question. Subtract your first result from the fired-case diameters' average. If you don't have .002"-.003" of difference in your components combinations, proceed cautiously. You might consider reaming case mouths or even the pistol chamber. I have a chamber/throat diameter relationship story along this line regarding my ChiCom Tokarev TT-30/33 (7.62 x 25). Some other time.

Relatively hard metal (92/6/2, usually)--relatively soft lubes (NRA 50/50, usually)--and sized to throat spec has worked for me very well for 20+ years. I use commercial Remington cases because their case mouths are a bit thinner than that of the free-to-me Winchester Super-X I had access to for years at work. Those W-W cases were a PITA, anyway--the primer pockets were VERY undersized, even an RCBS slam-swager couldn't cure them.

[tazman]

I suppose I should give a bit more information about my pistols and my loading for them.
My Beretta 92FS has a generous(possibly oversize) chamber that will accept almost any 38 caliber boolit, unsized and feed without hiccups. It just works with almost any OAL and nose profile and is acceptably accurate but is no target pistol.

My Smith & Wesson is a 929 revolver which presents it's own issues, since the chambers are tighter but much longer. There being no rifling to worry about running into with an overly long OAL. This one shoots extremely accurately.

I also have a Springfield Armory Range Officer(stainless) in 9mm. I haven't had this one very long. While the chamber will accept boolits up to .358, it feeds better with .356 boolits so the chamber is fairly tight. I have 2 molds that drop right at .356 right from the mold. These are a Lyman 356402 and a Lee 356-125-2R. Both run well in this pistol.
I found, with this pistol, if the OAL isn't fairly long, the pistol won't feed. I get double feeds and stovepipes with cartridges trying to enter the barrel. The nose is hitting the ramp at the wrong angle and bouncing up when the case is released from the magazine. When the OAL is over 1.125 the issue disappears and the pistol runs perfectly. The barrel slugs at .355 so these 2 boolits work well with this gun. Boolits such as the Lee 358-125-RF can't be loaded long enough to feed and still chamber in the pistol. I am going to try some 147 grain HP boolits from an NOE mold (TC ELCO) the next time I go to the range to see how they shoot.
This is the only center fire semi-auto I own that will shoot as accurately my revolvers. It prefers full power or nearly so, powder charges. Since finding it's preferences, I have run over 400 rounds through it without any malfunctions at all.
I hope this may help some.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

The CZ75 clones like shorter OAL lengths, so that is something I need to keep in mind for correct feeding. But as long as the round fits in the magazine (with the correct amount of nose profile "roundness"), it feeds....but shorter is better for 100% functionality.

[robertbank]

If you slug the barrel's THROAT, rather than its grooves, your profits will increase markedly. Size bullets at or a few "tenths" above the throat's dimension. IOW, treat the 9mm like a rifle--because it acts like one (high pressures & fast twist rates).

I think A LOT of inaccuracy and bore leading gets created by misuse/overuse of die features, in particular TAPER CRIMPING. I am not talking about Lee factory crimp dies here--mostly this has to do with RCBS tooling. It is well-nigh impossible to simultaneously seat a bullet AND set a taper crimp on its case. Bullets will be marred and often reduced in diameter, which leads to inaccuracy and bore leading. Seat the bullet FULLY, IN A DISCRETE DIE STEP. Then, in a separate die step THAT DOES NOT MOVE THE BULLET, set a light taper crimp. LIGHT, as in " turn the case mouth flare straight"--not BURY THE CASE MOUTH INTO THE BULLET SIDEWALL. Using a caliper or micrometer to "set" taper crimp diameter is a fool's errand in 9mm, because of wide variations in case mouth thicknesses between case makes in 9mm.

Ditto for 40 S&W and 10mm. Thankfully, case dimensions in these calibers are not so varied between makers.

This in spades. To make life easier on myself I do size all my bullets now to .357. To many 9MM guns I am afraid to say. I do find more issues with OAL using RN bullets though. MY CZ's will not deal with longer cartridges like my S&W and Beretta 92A1 will. Get the OAL to long and they just are not going to seat in the CZ's.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

This in spades. To make life easier on myself I do size all my bullets now to .357. To many 9MM guns I am afraid to say. I do find more issues with OAL using RN bullets though. MY CZ's will not deal with longer cartridges like my S&W and Beretta 92A1 will. Get the OAL to long and they just are not going to seat in the CZ's.

Take Care

Bob

This issue is why the Lee truncated-cone designs are such a daisy in my 9mms. They cast fat enough to size cleanly to .357". They feed wonderfully when seated with about .020" of front drive band exposed, that conical nose portion dodging the steep leade edge quite well.

[Ed_Shot]

This in spades. To make life easier on myself I do size all my bullets now to .357. To many 9MM guns I am afraid to say. I do find more issues with OAL using RN bullets though. MY CZ's will not deal with longer cartridges like my S&W and Beretta 92A1 will. Get the OAL to long and they just are not going to seat in the CZ's.

Take Care

Bob

+1.... Not only for my CZ 75 but also the 9MM conversion barrel for my G22. I size all 9MM to .358. I load for several 9MM in the family and I find that if I stick to the Lyman recommend OAL's I everybody get perfect function and good accuracy. Agree that you have to watch OAL's closer with round nose boolits.

[robertbank]

Al and Ed I am convinced the issues lie with the olgive of the bullet. My Lyman 356402 bullet loaded to 1.10" cartridge length is scary accurate and feeds like butter on a hot knife. My 147 gr Lyman on the other hand could drive a dead man crazy. Get it an eye lash to long and you have an expensive club in your hand. When I talk about accuracy, with my eyes, fine accuracy is limited to about 15 yards. After 15 yards I enjoy hitting the 8" Down Zero on an IDPA target. Beyond 25 yards I will get you but Allah Akbar, I think that means God Willing or God is Great....wharever.

The bullets go where the bullets want to go in no great order. LOL As a Iraqi soldier said to a friend of mine who at the time was serving with our Special Forces over there when asked why he didn't use his sights. "God willing if the bullet is meant to kill my enemy it will, if not, it won't, the sights don't matter apparently. When I shoot IDPA there are times I think the Iraqi was right.....

Take Care

Bob

[gwpercle]

I size them to .357 because I have a .357 die. No other reason.
Alloy is 50/50 COWW and lead.
Gas checks are used if the boolit has a place for one. Plain based boolits are shot plain.
OAL's are determined by the guns chamber.

Gary

[9.3X62AL]

I agree, Bob--ogive of the bullet meeting with the steep concrete-street-curb profile of many 9mm throat leades, and said leades are darn short. 9mm chamber reamers are DEEPLY under the influence of their lever-action rifle cartridge counterparts.

[tazman]

I have to be very careful with seating depth when using any boolit that isn't stepped to a bore riding dimension right in front of the case. Any round nose boolit that doesn't have a step can be a bear to get seated without interfering with the rifling.
By the same token, any truncated cone or stepped boolit feeds easily in the majority of 9mm pistols. The only pistol I have had an issue with was my 1911 9mm. When the OAL got too short it simply didn't feed properly. Longer OAL works fine.
The Lee 356-125-2R runs a fine line between being long enough and too fat for the rifling. I am not sure if I am going to continue messing with that one since the Lyman 356402 works so well.
The Lee 356-120-TC ends up being a little too short for perfect function in my 1911.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

You guys are making me rethink my thoughts of RNFP style of boolit for the 9mm, mostly from a standpoint of it it is needed in a bad situation, the boolit would work best; to stepping over to the truncated cone style of boolit for ease of feeding/function through the 9mm.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

FWIW, though, I did get the LEE 358 125 RF to feed perfectly from the magazine by hand (no powder loads yet)....time is of great shortness for me...no range time at all for last 2 months.

I haven't even been able to size the boolit for testing yet, but will post results when finally done.

[robertbank]

You guys are making me rethink my thoughts of RNFP style of boolit for the 9mm, mostly from a standpoint of it it is needed in a bad situation, the boolit would work best; to stepping over to the truncated cone style of boolit for ease of feeding/function through the 9mm.

Well along with accuracy and feeding the truncated cone style leaves a clean round sharp hole in IDPA cardboard targets which leads me to think it might just do the same thing in flesh cutting blood vessels etc. I can tell you the TC design sure ends a lot of frustration when it comes to loading for several 9MM pistols. I load my 356402 bullet to an OAL of cartridge of 1.10" +/- .02" and my guns sing. (Well as much as my ineptness will allow them to sing).

All the Best

Take Care

Bob

[GONRA]

GONRA's 1960's era Lyman 356402 mould has been a Huge Success in all sorts of oddball 9mm caliber ammo loads

[Drm50]

I have a lot of handguns and don't have much use for 9mm. I never bothered to load for the run
of the mill pistols. Then I got a Brn HP Comp model,exceptional shooter with hard ball. This pistol
has driven me crazy trying to find a cast bullet or sizing to make it shoot. I just can't get it to shoot with anything I have tried. This is the most accurate 9mm I've ever shot and I would really
like to come up with a cast bullet for it.196732

[tazman]

I have a lot of handguns and don't have much use for 9mm. I never bothered to load for the run
of the mill pistols. Then I got a Brn HP Comp model,exceptional shooter with hard ball. This pistol
has driven me crazy trying to find a cast bullet or sizing to make it shoot. I just can't get it to shoot with anything I have tried. This is the most accurate 9mm I've ever shot and I would really
like to come up with a cast bullet for it.196732

What have you tried?
More information would eliminate failures and give us a place to start with suggestions.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

GONRA's 1960's era Lyman 356402 mould has been a Huge Success in all sorts of oddball 9mm caliber ammo loadsI actually have some samples of that boolit on hand to try out from the boolit exchange....I was interested in comparing both against each other.