Decapping issue with S&B cartridges(primers "sticking")

[JBinMN]

I ran into an issue that I have never run into before this morning while removing the primers from some S&B .45ACP cases.


What is happening is some of the S&B cases I just recently got from a member is that a few cases that the pin would not push the primer out, but dimpled it into a cone shape with the sides still in the pocket. I think that were only 1x fired from factory. (I am pretty sure they are & trust the member I got them from.) So, I am thinking these came from the factory like this. For the problem cases, when I had the decap pin set at 3/16 below the die, a couple of the cases got stuck in the shellholder because the primer was sticking out but not letting go of the sides.

I had to extend the pin several times to get the primer to finally break free & push out. Almost to 5/16ths out. I was afraid I was going to either break a pin or punch through the primer or both. I finished about 100 of them that did not have a problem, so I had a few that stuck & the rest did not so I could keep going to finish the loading process. But, I have about another 100+ to go of this lot to go through the process & would hope to know more before I try sizing & decapping. ( Note: Since I wrote this I went $ did the other 100 or so, and got 8 more of the ones with the "sticking". Raising the percentage to around 6% per 100 of "sticky primers")


Which leads me to some questions? Maybe someone has had this type of issue and can help out. I can imagine with all of the reloaders here , that this has come up before...
So, if ya can help please do.
:)



If you ever had a struck primer, was it S&B cases/primer from the factory?




If it was S&B first time decapping, about what percentage of them had the problem?
(So far I am now at about 6%) out of the 200 figuring they came from the factory possibly with an issue of some kind.)




Since they were sticking, do you think was it because the primer pocket in the case was too small for the primer, was it the primer too large, or some of both?




If it was the case being too small, did reaming out the case primer pocket solve the issue to install any other makers primer, or was it that the S&B primers had a few that were over size from normal?




Has anyone else had this happen as a common enough issue that it would be something to look out for in certain makers like in this case with S&B? ( I am not familiar enough with this company as I have never tried their products, so I am curious as to the quality of their products for the future)




And unless I can think of any other questions the last one would be...

Do you think that it was from the firing & the primers expanded outwards into the pocket like a case will in a chamber, thus making it harder to get the primer out? Like a case of over pressure might do?
(They did not show signs of overpressure because after the first one I started looking for it... Remember that I believe these to be "factory" rounds, but do not know for sure...???)


Anyone who could help me out here with answering the questions would be appreciated.


:)


Note: Earlier, I posted this in another current topic, the "Decapping" one, but after some thought decided to make it into it's own topic so it might be easier to find if someone has a similar issue. So, I am deleting the one there & putting it here.
:)
Note2: I searched the site using "sticking"+ "primers", as keywords, and did not get any applicable hits using those keywords. If There is a topic about this, please let me know. Thanks!
:)

[tazman]

Do a search for S&B brass problems or just the brass. Others have the same issue.

[Loudy13]

I have had the same issue, my regular progressive set would only push out the primer if I ran it through twice. I am not sure if it is the crimp or the primer that holds it up but they are a pain in the decapping pin!! I separate all the S&B brass into a different bucket now and will deal with it all at once (which is about 1500 of course) I figure I will set my press up with the decap pin out a little farther and see if that works or maybe I will have to do it with a separate press and just a decapper before starting the run.

I would say the percentage of the S&B brass I had an issue with on my progressive was about 75% with .45 brass, 9mm S&B on the other hand the primers come out decent but in is a little harder and the brass is quite a bit harder than other cases FWIW.

[JBinMN]

Do a search for S&B brass problems or just the brass. Others have the same issue.

OK. I will try that. Maybe I was too specific asking about "primers".
Thanks!
:)
----------------------------------------------------------

I have had the same issue, my regular progressive set would only push out the primer if I ran it through twice. I am not sure if it is the crimp or the primer that holds it up but they are a pain in the decapping pin!! I separate all the S&B brass into a different bucket now and will deal with it all at once (which is about 1500 of course) I figure I will set my press up with the decap pin out a little farther and see if that works or maybe I will have to do it with a separate press and just a decapper before starting the run.

I would say the percentage of the S&B brass I had an issue with on my progressive was about 75% with .45 brass, 9mm S&B on the other hand the primers come out decent but in is a little harder and the brass is quite a bit harder than other cases FWIW.

Thanks for the info! In just these 2 posts I have already learned that it apparently seems to be a problem with S&B brass.

I will go read what I can find with new search keywords. I will try "S&B+ Brass+ Primer+Issue+ problem" first to see what I can find & then I will mix it up with some shorter combintations to try to narrow if it gets too large a response.

I am mentioning the search keywords for any others who may come along & see this to try to help them in the future.
:)

Thanks again to the both of ya!
:) :drinks:

[JBinMN]

Whoah! 603 hits of that string of keywords... I can see that I am definitely not the only one with S&B issues. As I said, I have never used it before. Now I need to do some reading. See if I can ream them a bit if needed. I was just getting ready to work some loads with some old Red Dot I have. I have CCI LPP to use or I can use Winchesters large or mag ones. I do not want to have to fight this. I have other brass. But I don't want to throw them away or try to screw someone else over with passing them off. So, off to the trenches of research I go.

Thanks again for the help!
:)

I am thinking....Maybe I should try to delete this topic, or ask a mod to do it. No need to add to the list...
Sheesh.

:???:

[Bmi48219]

Was the brass wet tumbled before you deprived? Never had that issue with S&B but similar (worse) problem with Lake City .30 carbine. They had been wet tumbled before I purchased, but not de-primed. I think the primers fused to the pocket walls. Lost about 90 of the 500. Actually punched through the bottom of them, they looked like the opened lid of a miniature can.

[corbinace]

Hi JB,

Not the exact thing as yours but...

When I tried to reload range pickup S&B 9mm brass on my older Dillon dies, the primer would get stuck as you describe. My solution was an addition to the scrap brass bucket. It got to where if I noticed the head stamp, it would go directly to the scrap bucket. Of course this was much less valuable 9mm, but I think I would do the same with 45 today.
A bummer to have to pay and then trash it. Good luck in your search for an economical solution.

[JBinMN]

Was the brass wet tumbled before you deprived? Never had that issue with S&B but similar (worse) problem with Lake City .30 carbine. They had been wet tumbled before I purchased, but not de-primed. I think the primers fused to the pocket walls. Lost about 90 of the 500. Actually punched through the bottom of them, they looked like the opened lid of a miniature can.

No, I dry tumbled for 30 minutes in a half treated corn & walnut, then shook them in the separator to get most of the tumbler media residue off them. Shook them in a towel for a minute to almost all of the dust/residue & then went to depriming with a Hornady Carbide Die. I did give every tenth one a roll on the lube pad to help with the process as they seemed tough to run up & down. Not from the depriming part, but that they just seemed harder than most other cases. ( I think I am gonna anneal them after this round of loading if I don't throw them in a scrap bucket.)

The only thing I have done after that was do the "shake of citrus powder/couple drops of dishsoap with hot water treatment", then swirled them around with a whisk to get most of the rest of the tumbling residue & any lube off off them, drained in a colander & shook them in an old towel to get them mostly dry. Then I let them sit on some dry paper towels a little while while I did other reloading stuff. I then chamfered the insides, ( forgot to do that before the bath since I was thinking about why they were so much hassle ) then tap the insides down on a paper towel to get the lil shaving out & now they are now sitting in a couple of reloading trays awaiting the priming. That is the whole process up to now. So, I do not think it was from anything other than the factory, based on what I understand from the member I got them from...

A puzzler for me, but after reading those other folks posts, I am not the only one for sure...
;)

[mold maker]

I just had the same problem with 3 gal LC 5.56 outdoor range brass. About 3-4 % of the primers lost their top leaving the ring in the cup. Quiet a few only partly tore off and tied up the shell holder.
These had been stored for over a year in an open bucket in an unconditioned area. No major tarnish and only slightly darkened color.
I have decapped lots of S&B 45 but never hat a problem with them.

[JBinMN]

Hi JB,

Not the exact thing as yours but...

When I tried to reload range pickup S&B 9mm brass on my older Dillon dies, the primer would get stuck as you describe. My solution was an addition to the scrap brass bucket. It got to where if I noticed the head stamp, it would go directly to the scrap bucket. Of course this was much less valuable 9mm, but I think I would do the same with 45 today.
A bummer to have to pay and then trash it. Good luck in your search for an economical solution.

Thanks for sharing your experience!
:)

I think I am going to experiment a bit. I am gonna try to install some primers in a few & see how troublesome it is. Then I am going to try chamfering the edge of the primer pocket & try a few more, then if they are still troublesome I will take a Lyman tool I have & ream the pockets a bit on a few to see if that will help. Unless someone tells me a better idea & those attempts don't work I will pitch the lot & never try the doggone things again. LOL
:)
{Unless someone wants to buy them off me, trade or something...LOL & G'luck to them if they do. I can also give them away, but would be sure to tell them of the issues I have had & what I tried to do to solve the issue. Or.. Sell the scrap & buy some lead. :) }

I just bought them & I hate to not be able to use them, so I will inform the fella I got them from so he is aware & try to avoid those S&B cases for anything I load. I like doing this stuff, but having hassles in doing it is not good.
;)

I will post what I end up doing. Thanks for your replies!
:)

[JBinMN]

I just had the same problem with 3 gal LC 5.56 outdoor range brass. About 3-4 % of the primers lost their top leaving the ring in the cup. Quiet a few only partly tore off and tied up the shell holder.
These had been stored for over a year in an open bucket in an unconditioned area. No major tarnish and only slightly darkened color.
I have decapped lots of S&B 45 but never hat a problem with them.

It kind of blew me away that it happened, as I have never had any issues like this before. The way I understand it is these come off a range & are sent out in abut a week, so the turnover is pretty quick I would think & no chance for any issue to develop from a long sit in crappy conditions. From what I read in the research & about 20+ old posts is this is not an uncommon thing for some. Although there are others who have no issues. I am gonna give it a hell of a try & once I have learned as much as I can, I will decide what I am going to do with these & any others I run across. ( I just remembered I have some of these in 9mm & about 500 .380 to sort & likely will have some in there too. Need to find a solution or they are gone from my world. LOL ;) )

Thanks for sharing your experience!
:)

[Cowboy_Dan]

I've only come across S&B brass in 7.62x54mmR. Primers came out just fine, but were a real bear to put in. I just swaged the pockets and it's all good in the neighborhood now.

[David2011]

I'm with Corbinace. S&B goes directly to the scrap brass bucket.

[NoAngel]

S&B brass sucks. Worst brass I ever tried to load. Square edge on the primer pocket and often WAYYYYY too tight. They're difficult to reprime correctly in my experience. They are worth only what scrap yellow brass brings. No more.

[JBinMN]

Thanks for the replies!
:)

I understand there is a more hate than love for them & I have partly experienced why today. I hope I am done with the issues.

I did something a little backwards from normal as I usually expand for the bullet/boolit before I prime, but in this case since I was worried about issues in seating primers I reversed the process as to not waste the time until I found out what it was gonna take... Well, I just got done doing 100 of them, half with CCI 350s( Magnum because I want to experiment with some 45ACP loads using them & the other half with Winchester WLP ( large/or magnum) primers.)

I decided to start out with cases that had nothing done to them to see how that worked. I did 10 without any issue with the CCI. so I kept going... At the end of the 50 CCI I only had a few issues where I could feel the tightness in the primer pocket, but I was seeing little brass shavings every time I removed the "tight" cases from the shell holder, and I think I was shaving a little brass from the case as I ran the primer in. (These primers have steel/looking cups.) It wasn't a lot of effort though, just enough to make me think, "Uh Oh... What is gonna happen now.", but they all seated well with no loud pops or anything like that & I didn't have to remove any. So, the same thing happened with the Win WLPs, jus had a few tight ones & the rest went in fine.

So, I went ahead and expanded the mouths & now they are sitting there on the bench for powder & boolits. My last concern now is either cracking mouths or boolits swelling the case for some reason. After that it is time for shooting & seeing how they behave there. I will then try to remove the primers I put in & see what happens then.

I am very happy that I did not have to do all that other crapola to get the primers in. Whew...

So, I may finish them overnight if I get up in the middle of the night ( I often do now a days), but if not, then not likely til at least tomorrow night as it is my youngest sons 30th B-day & I plan to spend time with him & the rest of the family and have a small party for him.

Thanks again for everyone who posted!
:)

I will let ya'll know what happens in the next stage of this deal. I'm gonna be bummed if I have to start pulling primers because of splits...

[EDG]

I decap all brass with a hand punch so I never have problems knocking primers out.
That includes hundreds of S&B brass.

I have had primers stretch out like you describe but they were US military crimped in primers.

[William Yanda]

I bought some 9mm that had been wet tumbled and had similar issues, even though I deprimed with a hand punch. I did not notice that the issue was isolated to any particular head stamp.
Bill



I decap all brass with a hand punch so I never have problems knocking primers out.
That includes hundreds of S&B brass.

I have had primers stretch out like you describe but they were US military crimped in primers.

[Walter Laich]

along a similar vein i had some very old 357 cases where the primers would just dimple vs. pop out. About 1/2 of a couple of hundred.

turns out the primer metal and brass had developed some kind of chemical reaction that caused a great deal of friction.
Once out and wet tumbled the problem went away.

and S&B 45 ACP brass is my least favorite right along with blazer small primer 45 acp brass

[dragon813gt]

I'm with Corbinace. S&B goes directly to the scrap brass bucket.

Same here. To many different issues w/ it. I can always feel when one slips by and makes it to the FL sizing stage. Not worth my time to mess w/ it.

[Wayne Smith]

I have not had a problem decapping S&B brass. I always assume the primer pocket is tight and they all their primer pockets uniformed with the Lyman uniforming tool. Nary a problem with them since. It's a one time problem with a one time solution.

[jetinteriorguy]

Try depriming with a universal depriming die. I use Lees die, I punch out a primer in a sample case, then loosen the collet on the depriming pin and slide it down until it won't go any further through the hole, then just move it ever so slightly up and lock in place. This way the pin will protrude as far as possible to punch the primer as far out of the case as it can go. Using this method I've found even primers that stretch will eventually pop out and fall clear. Then if the primer pocket is tight you can chamfer it either using your case chamfering tool or a primer pocket tool like the Lyman tool.

[BrutalAB]

Op, it was s&b brass that killed my decapping pin that sparked the other thread. and a herters that broke my homemade one.
Both have really tight primer pockets from my experience.

[JBinMN]

Op, it was s&b brass that killed my decapping pin that sparked the other thread. and a herters that broke my homemade one.
Both have really tight primer pockets from my experience.

Thanks! I appreciate ya saying what happened. I was wondering, as ya saw in the other topics post... I can certainly see how they could do it. I do have a few herters ones, maybe about 20 & I may not even use them if they are gonna be a hassle. I may be getting some extra pins myself, now that this has happened.

G'luck! in solving your troubles also.
:)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've been using a batch of Mil surp 45acp as well as R+P 45acp, so I haven't sorted 45acp range brass in a long time...but I recently ordered a large quantity of 45acp range brass from a member here, so I'll be on the lookout, when I get to that.

But, I will say, I have learned to be on the lookout for S&B brass in 9mm. The primers are sealed, I suspect that in combination with pocket tightness are the issues with difficult decaping. S&B 9mm has given me problems during FL sizing as well, and also bullet seating. So now, I sort them out and do not use them for reloading. "Amerc" brand are even worse.

Those experiences have caused me to sort all my range brass by headstamp. I've found each brand has a different feel when loading them. I load on a turret press and have developed a 'feel', so when a case acts different, it is usually a problem, I stop and reject the case...but when you load mixed headstamp cases, the differences with brands is enough, that it doesn't allow me to do that.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Whoah! 603 hits of that string of keywords.

SNIP...




SNIP...

I am thinking....Maybe I should try to delete this topic, or ask a mod to do it. No need to add to the list.

No need to delete. This is how a discussion forum works.

If I come across a reloading/casting problem, I don't want to read one single thread that has 1,000 posts. I want to sort through 100 threads with a handful of posts each. That is why choosing a title name that is search friendly is so important when starting a new thread, although few people think if it, at that time...that's kind of a pet peeve of mine...seeing a thread with a title, "Check this out" just makes me cringe on the inside.

[JBinMN]

Thanks for your input JonB!
:)

Yes, I was thinking maybe I was just adding o the mix of already covered stuff, but after reading 20+ of the 600+ I thought to leave it here & let it run its' course. If it had not been informative, I would have asked you or one of the other Mods to decide if it should stay or toss it.
:)

I tried to make the topic name as Specific, but short as possible, just so folks would have a better idea of what was in here.

The info posted here has helped me so far from what you can see & I hope it will help others also.
:)

I plan to be shooting those rounds this afternoon, as it looks like more rain for us coming tonite & the next couple days.
I have .380, 9mm, 38 & 357 44mag & .45acp to test some loads so I will be a busy feller if I can get them all done in the time I have to get out there.

& BTW, I have some 9mm S&B brass I rec'd recently & now I am concerned about those cases after reading yours & some others having issues with them. I don't have as many as the .45 ones, but I am thinking around 50-100. I hate throwing away things if I can get them to work, but I certainly don't want to break anything trying either. It is too bad about not being able to heat them a bit to maybe help loosen, but I do not want to anneal or damage the primer end, I will stick to the mouth end for that. Speaking of which. I plan to anneal these S&B 45 cases right after I get done shooting them. I am hoping to get a little more elasticity out of them for sizing/expanding & seating that way. Should help I am thinking, unless it is just crappy stuff anyway.

Thanks again for your posts!
:)

[pertnear]

I've had the same problem & determined that some type of corrosion in the primer pocket was "gluing" the sides of the spent primer to the pocket walls. I put all the cases in a shallow pan & sprayed with PB-blaster (a rusted nut loosener like Liquid Wrench). Let set for a short while then not a single problem from then on. Of course the brass had to be throughly cleaned after de-capping.

FWIW & good luck!

[JBinMN]

I've had the same problem & determined that some type of corrosion in the primer pocket was "gluing" the sides of the spent primer to the pocket walls. I put all the cases in a shallow pan & sprayed with PB-blaster (a rusted nut loosener like Liquid Wrench). Let set for a short while then not a single problem from then on. Of course the brass had to be throughly cleaned after de-capping.

FWIW & good luck!

I will give that a try with some of those 9mm S&B cases just to give it a try. I don't have the PB stuff, but do have the Liquid Wrench.

Thanks for the idea!
:)

[Drew P]

I would try oil also. Stand them all base down in a pan and fill with any old oil and let sit for a while, maybe days. Even if it only reduces the force needed to deprive by 15% it may be enough to make a difference.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

let us know if the Liquid wrench works

[John Boy]

What is happening is some of the S&B cases I just recently got from a member is that a few cases that the pin would not push the primer out
S&B primer pockets are tight - the brass you received had dirty pockets and were reloaded with S&B primers. Knock the primers out and use a pocket reamer to enlarge the ID and you'll be fine reloading them again

[No Blue]

Thanks for your input JonB!
:)

Yes, I was thinking maybe I was just adding o the mix of already covered stuff, but after reading 20+ of the 600+ I thought to leave it here & let it run its' course. If it had not been informative, I would have asked you or one of the other Mods to decide if it should stay or toss it.
:)

I tried to make the topic name as Specific, but short as possible, just so folks would have a better idea of what was in here.

The info posted here has helped me so far from what you can see & I hope it will help others also.
:)

I plan to be shooting those rounds this afternoon, as it looks like more rain for us coming tonite & the next couple days.
I have .380, 9mm, 38 & 357 44mag & .45acp to test some loads so I will be a busy feller if I can get them all done in the time I have to get out there.

& BTW, I have some 9mm S&B brass I rec'd recently & now I am concerned about those cases after reading yours & some others having issues with them. I don't have as many as the .45 ones, but I am thinking around 50-100. I hate throwing away things if I can get them to work, but I certainly don't want to break anything trying either. It is too bad about not being able to heat them a bit to maybe help loosen, but I do not want to anneal or damage the primer end, I will stick to the mouth end for that. Speaking of which. I plan to anneal these S&B 45 cases right after I get done shooting them. I am hoping to get a little more elasticity out of them for sizing/expanding & seating that way. Should help I am thinking, unless it is just crappy stuff anyway.

Thanks again for your posts!
:)

Your prose is too prolix....tighten it up.

[JBinMN]

Your prose is too prolix....tighten it up.

Well, I think you just trolled me. Very politely but I figure it is trolling just the same, since it offers NOTHING, to the discussion about S&B brass/primers/etc., but to offer how ya don't like reading long posts, and in particular mine.

I would like to tell YOU more of what I think of your comment, but I am a guest here.


There is an "ignore" setting, if ya don't want to read what I write.

I will leave it at that. I don't like to feed trolls....

[No Blue]

Well, I think you just trolled me. Very politely but I figure it is trolling just the same, since it offers NOTHING, to the discussion about S&B brass/primers/etc., but to offer how ya don't like reading long posts, and in particular mine.

I would like to tell YOU more of what I think of your comment, but I am a guest here.


There is an "ignore" setting, if ya don't want to read what I write.

I will leave it at that. I don't like to feed trolls....

Do a web search, you'll see where it comes from, and why it accurately describes...you are a wordy one....LOL Just extend the pin out, that will knock the primer out and you won't have go on and on and on and on about it... LOL. I'm not sure why that didn't occur to you as a first step??? The feedback loop of observing and then taking the appropriate action seems to be missing with a lot of reloading peeps...don't know why that is.

[JBinMN]

Do a web search, you'll see where it comes from, and why it accurately describes...you are a wordy one....LOL Just extend the pin out, that will knock the primer out and you won't have go on and on and on and on about it... LOL. I'm not sure why that didn't occur to you as a first step??? The feedback loop of observing and then taking the appropriate action seems to be missing with a lot of reloading peeps...don't know why that is.

Perhaps your reading comprehension skills need some work... Maybe go read the first sentence in the 2nd paragraph where I describe what I did as a FIRST STEP... to deal with the issue. The first sentence of the original post describes the issue from "my" experience. The first full paragraph dealt with what was happening & gave details on the background of the cases & the method I was & have been using for a long time. I would quote it here for ya, but this is gonna take some effort on your own part to figure out...

I see the issue with ya Mr. No Blue... You posted your opinion of my method of posting & did not make any comment towards the subject of the topic. Then your next post here is one of derision and with an attempt at patronizing someone. Maybe ya also need to work on your skills with communicating others in a more polite manner. So far, it appears to me that you are still trolling...

I am thinking you go work on your reading skills & I will work on brevity, bub.

Once more, I am a guest here at CastBoolits & am going out of my way to be civil & polite. I am not that way in person, & if I were not a guest, my replies to you would not be the same way. Maybe you ought to consider that you are a guest here also, before ya post to me again.

[No Blue]

Tl:dr

[Valley-Shooter]

I just bought some 45 ACP brass from a member of the forum. There are quite a few S&B cases in the box.
I read your post about having problems. I figured I better check this out.
I polished the brass in my dry tumbler. Sized ten on my Square Deal. No problems there. I took my Hornady primer pocket reamer and reamed the primer pockets. It cut a nice chamfer in the pocket.
I seated some Winchester WLP primers with my Square Deal. That didn't feel right. They went in hard, but I did get them in.

This ain't going to work on a progressive reloader. I need a smooth operation for consistency. I'm going to segregate these out, size and prime special. Then shoot them when I not not picking up the brass. Maybe the next GSSF Match.