Wth! Which mold for an AR15?

[jayjay1]

Hi Gents,
I´m cruising the forum for over an hour now and found some information about cast bullets in an AR15, but still don´t know where to start with.

Please correct me if I´m wrong.
The way to go is a powder coated bullet with a gas check, right?

I´m having an AR15 in .223 Remington, 20" barrel with a 1:9 twist rate.

Which mold / which bullet design is the way to go?


Begging for help.

[Reddirt62]

I use a Lee C225-55-RF.

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[Jal5]

NOE Has one that is very similar to that lee mold mentioned above. Gas checked mine with a variety of liquid alox tumble lube. See Bills Liquid lube on castboolits.com
Works well with no leading provided your boolit dia is good

[jayjay1]

Ok, thanx so far.

Just because I´m curious.
I thought a bit a heavier bullet, maybe in the 65gr. range, would slow down velocity a bit and better / easier to manage.
Not?

[Smoke4320]

you will be just fine with a 65 grain and a 1-9 twist ..
gas checking then powdercoating will make life easier in the non leading and accuracy dept ..
Size at least .002 over bore .003 will probably be even better

[HtNRun]

Just trying to add an option:

Looking in the "Swaging" section and check out BT Sniper's .224 simple kit. Turns .22lr into whatever weight jacketed hollow point bullets you want. I have the kit and have shot a lot with ZERO problems.

Again, just offering another route/option.


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[Digital Dan]

Generally inclined to use the GROOVE reference for sizing for smokeless.

[woodbutcher]

:sad: With ITAR like it is,don`t think BTSnipers tooling will make it out of the USA.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[35remington]

Yes. Sizing "0.002 to 0.003" over "bore" will yield dismal results.

"Bore diameter" has a specific meaning that is misused. "Groove diameter" is what they mean, but do not correctly attribute. Done way too often here, where precise meaning is important lest one convey poor information.

[Scharfschuetze]

Is the AR for "cast only" use? If so, consider a barrel with a slower twist rate. A 1 in 12" barrel will perform much better with cast bullets than the faster 1 in 9" twist.

Also I would suggest a fairly heavy mould design for optimum performance with cast bullets. Given the short neck of the .223/5.56mm, the design below should allow you to load to magazine length while keeping the lube groves inside the neck of the case.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=24_111

The heavy cast projectile can be shot to the same velocity as a lighter cast bullet in the .223/5.56mm given cast bullet limitations. With its greater weight, a heavier bullet will retain its velocity better and shoot with less trajectory and wind deflection than a lighter bullet.

At one time I compared 22 LR performance with the Army sub cal .22RF kit between the old M16A1 and the newer M16A2 rifles. The slower twist M16A1 (1 in 12") had significantly better accuracy than the fast twist M16A2 (1 in 7") barrel.

The 1 in 12" barrel is a good compromise and should allow you to shoot 55 grain jacketed bullets well as well as the heavy gas check cast bullets. Given your range limitations in Germany, the heavier jacketed bullets requiring the 1 in 9" twist are probably not necessary unless you have a range of 300 meters or more.


Viel Glueck mit dem Projekt.

[jayjay1]

Dear Gents,
I´m having an AR15 with a 20" barrel in 1:9.
So that´s what I have to start with.

The heaviest FMJ bullet I could stabilize with it was the SMK 69gr. (1380), 75 grainers made nice "long holes" all over the disc.
Wouldn´t that be the same with such heavy lead bullets above 70gr.?

So, regarding this weight limitation (if I´m not wrong), still looking for the right mold design:

+/- 65grs.
ready for GC
w/wo lube grooves?

Any suggestions here?

[jayjay1]

Just trying to add an option:

Looking in the "Swaging" section and check out BT Sniper's .224 simple kit. Turns .22lr into whatever weight jacketed hollow point bullets you want. I have the kit and have shot a lot with ZERO problems.

Again, just offering another route/option.


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Dear sir,
as this is a veeeery interesting chapter, I´m shy becaus of the enormous costs.

For 1.500+ bucks an old Grandma has to knit some socks, as we say over here.
:(

[Lloyd Smale]

I actually just started shooting that lee bullet. Cast out of 5050 ww/lyno water dropped, pc coated and with a gas check and with enough ramshot exterminator to get about 27500fps out of the 16 inch barrel. First try yesterday wasn't to promising. Shot in a 1-7 twist colt ar that routinely shoots sub moa at a 100 yards. I was getting about a 4 inch group at 50 yards. Good enough for minute of man but nothing to write home about. When this rain stops ill try one of my 1-9 twist ars to see if the twist was to fast for that bullet.
I use a Lee C225-55-RF.

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[Scharfschuetze]

Wouldn´t that be the same with such heavy lead bullets above 70gr.?

Probably not. Bullet stability is dependent on length and not necessarily weight. Cast bullets like the one I posted a link on are much shorter than an equal weight jacketed match bullet. The cast bullet in the link that I posted above should still be a good bullet in your 1-9" twist barrel. It is .750" long so it should work fine and the JBM calculator shows that it is actuall over stabilized at velocities as low as 1,000 fps.

Hornady makes two different 75 grain match bullets. The 75 grain A-Max really needs the 1 in 8" twist, while the 75 grain hollow point boat tail will generally stabilize in a 1 in 9" twist barrel. The A-Max is generally used for single loading and not from the magazine. The HPBT is for loading from the AR magazine. It's the length making the difference: HPBT at .990" v. A-Max at 1.005"


I´m having an AR15 with a 20" barrel in 1:9.
So that´s what I have to start with.

I read this as one of our "future tenses" (Ich werde es gemacht haben) or an "in progress build not completed yet" so my recommendation for the 1-12" barrel. My bad. Now I understand that you already have a 1-9" barrel.

[jayjay1]

Hi sharpshooter,
thanks for your infos, and btw., pretty good German for a non-German.
:)

@Lloyd Smale:
Holy cow, that´s a neat velocity from such a short barrel.

Did you see any abrasive signs/leading in the barrel.
Just thinking about, such a velocity and bad accuracy would show in this direction, not?

@all:
Found molds from Miha / MP molds, of which I´m owning some.
Pretty good molds so, think that could become my starting point.

https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds/mp-227-65-gc-nato

https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds/mp-227-75-gc-nato-6-cav


Because of Scharfschütze´s intervention I´m a bit unsure now if I should go with 65 or 75gr. with my 1:9 twist barrel.....

I can´t stabilize 75gr. FMJ for sure.
:???:

[LeadPoisonTX]

Because of Scharfschütze´s intervention I´m a bit unsure now if I should go with 65 or 75gr. with my 1:9 twist barrel.....

I can´t stabilize 75gr. FMJ for sure.
:???:

Load some 65's and some 75's, shoot and compare the results. It is an empirical process: experiment, observe results, try something else, repeat.

[jayjay1]

Sure I would, but I don´t have any mold of those yet.

So it is up to me to make a decision which of those both would work rather.

I hoped that the experience of the forum might help me a bit with that.
:wink:

[Gamsek]

Jayjay1, I can send 20 bullets that I casted from MP Molds 227-65 to try. They are casted from ww, pc'd, sized to 226", Hornady GC.

I tried them in 222 (1/14") and 223 (1/8") both bolt action, after that one time limited test I now believe you have to not only match weight/length to your twist, but also speed, something about RPM.

For instance, when I increased speed in 1/8", accuracy went bad. In 1/14" I had to increase speed to stabilize it properly.

I attach photos of my "one range trip-try once" (different powders, speed) experience with cast 62grs pills. I was happy, but decided its not worth the fuss (mostly gas checks-no way to get them from USA).
Much easier and faster for me to swage my 224" bullets, specially since I have new core mold from MP Molds too.



196081
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/6f2c1e85a4634882cc1b0a3449be2b8a.jpg196082

Pm me your address and I will also send you few swaged bullets. Just made a bunch of them in 58grs for my friend with his new AR.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/1158837de375fe4e307bc9dece47d1f6.jpg

[Scharfschuetze]

I gave up on cast bullets in my HBAR with a 1 in 7" twist barrel, but I have some reduced data with jacketed bullets.

55 grain:

3.5 grains BE: Ave 924, Sd 44. Just too light for good uniformity.
4.7 grains BE: Ave 1370, Sd 16.

Very accurate out to 100 yards or so. .34" 10 shot groups at 50 yards. Much too light to operate the action, but for off hand practice or teaching a child to shoot, it's a great load. It's best shot in a bolt rifle, although the AR15 functions just fine in a manual mode.

My tests with 2400 powder gave unusually high velocities and as my goal was for a 100 yard practice load, I discontinued any further work.

55 grains FMJ:

17 grains of 2400: Ave: 2914 fps, Es: 64, Sd: 26

Accuracy was good (sub MOA) with this load at 100 yards and ejection was 100% although the load would not always lock the action open on the last shot.

While these loads are not cast loads, they should give you an idea of what Bulleseye and 2400 will do with reduced loads using cast bullets.

Gamesek,

Nice looking swaged bullets!

[aspangler]

I use the Lee mold for my AR with 1/7" barrel. Also use a heathy dose of IMR 4895 under it. Full function and good lock back on last round. YMMV

[Lloyd Smale]

shot probably 50 of them that day and no leading what so ever. barrel looked a bit dirtier when looked down after that session then it normal does. I shot 5 jacketed bullets when I was done and it looked no different then if I would have shot jacketed all day. Some of the "dirtiness" could of just been from the fact I was using ramshot exterminator with the cast bullets. Its a bit dirtier then my normal loads using 2230 with jacketed bullets.
Hi sharpshooter,
thanks for your infos, and btw., pretty good German for a non-German.
:)

@Lloyd Smale:
Holy cow, that´s a neat velocity from such a short barrel.

Did you see any abrasive signs/leading in the barrel.
Just thinking about, such a velocity and bad accuracy would show in this direction, not?

@all:
Found molds from Miha / MP molds, of which I´m owning some.
Pretty good molds so, think that could become my starting point.

https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds/mp-227-65-gc-nato

https://www.mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds/mp-227-75-gc-nato-6-cav


Because of Scharfschütze´s intervention I´m a bit unsure now if I should go with 65 or 75gr. with my 1:9 twist barrel.....

I can´t stabilize 75gr. FMJ for sure.
:???:

[JeffG]

I use the Lee 225-55-RF gas checked and sized .225 with NRA 50/50 lube, no powder coating. This is ahead of 20 grains H4895. I shoot these in an M&P15 which is 1/9 twist. One question would be what are you planning to do with it? I'm mainly doing tactical training no more than 50 yards so it works just fine for that. I don't need 1 moa accuracy for that.

[Smoke4320]

I have the same mold as gamsek mp 227-65 fn
And it shoots great in my Sig 516 5.56 rifle
I gas check, pc , size to 226 and load to slightly less than 2800 fps and get Sub MOA
Get some from Gamsek . try them I think you will be happy with a little experimenting.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup even with my results a 4 inch group at 50 yards makes it capable of being a just in case bullet for when or if I couldn't find jacketed bullets for my ars.
I use the Lee 225-55-RF gas checked and sized .225 with NRA 50/50 lube, no powder coating. This is ahead of 20 grains H4895. I shoot these in an M&P15 which is 1/9 twist. One question would be what are you planning to do with it? I'm mainly doing tactical training no more than 50 yards so it works just fine for that. I don't need 1 moa accuracy for that.

[jayjay1]

Yes, Gamsek pm´ed me and offered me to send some of his products, what I´m happy to confirm.

Thanks so far gentlemen, next step will come.
:drinks:

[JeffG]

yup even with my results a 4 inch group at 50 yards makes it capable of being a just in case bullet for when or if I couldn't find jacketed bullets for my ars.

Exactly, I don't need to burn up the jacketed stuff, extra powder for training in mag swaps, keeping on target, etc.