Filler in a .357 Cowboy load??

[WildmanJack]

OK guys, again I come to the wisest of the wise. I am loading new unfired .357 brass for cowboy action shooting. I'm using a 125 grain Pb cast Boolit over 2.5 grains of Clays. I'm concerned with the theory that too light a powder charge could cause an explosion in the case due to too much surface area exposed to the primer flame. Thus destroying my brand new Taurus Gaucho's, my hands and the head of the guy standing either side of me. I was thinking of using dryer lint or toilet paper, or something as a filler. I recently had a .45 acp case blow out due to a very light load of powder and although it didn't hurt the weapon it sure was a mess to clean up and the plastic mag follower was destroyed..

Your thoughts please...


:castmine:so I can :Fire: and then have a few :drinks: :mrgreen:

[felix]

Load 3 grains. ... felix

[Doc Highwall]

Why not just use TrailBoss, that is what it was designed for. No velocity speed records, damn near impossible to double charge and gives you a piece of mind that you will not get a S.E.E. ( Secondary Explosive Effect)

[WildmanJack]

Well Doc, I thought of that. And I don't want to seem like I'm Cheap, but I have 6 pounds of Clays in the closet from loading shotshells and I figured I could use that till I finished it off. I guess your right, I should use Trail Boss and not worry.. I was hoping to use the Clays but maybe it's just a bit too fast burning for these loads.
Jack

[Scrounger]

Hodgdon publishes loading data for all their powders; as long as you stay within their guidelines, I wouldn't worry about it. Now if the load you mentioned is lower than the published minimum, just increase it to that amount. If they don't publish a load for the .357, I'd switch to .38 Special cases for which they do have a load. Power is not needed in Cowboy Shooting, no reason at all not to use .38 Special cases.

[Echo]

I agree with Scrounger re .38 Spcl cases, but remember to RELIGIOUSLY clean the cylinders after every firing session to get the residue out of the gap between the end of the .38 case and the end of the chamber.

[Christian for Israel]

i use cotton balls for filler. they leave no residue behind, hold the charge in the bottom well and are easy to use...i highly recommend them.

[miestro_jerry]

I use COW (Cream of Wheat), Coffee grounds, new not used and if it is a bigger case, I use a disk made from sile seal insulation.

Jerry

[35remington]

I'd say "explosions" "due to too much surface area exposed to the powder flame" are imaginary.

Extensive tests have been done with fast powders, and light loads of fast powders in cases much larger than the .357. Example: 6 grains 231 or 5 grains Bullseye with light cast bullets in many rifle cartridges like .30-06, .30-30 and many others fired in great quantity by the shooters on this board, or recommended by such as Ed Harris.

Much more powder surface area has the potential to be exposed than a teeny charge in a little .357 case, and no grief has been caused in these potentially "explosive" situations. The potential energy of 2.5 grains Clays is hardly enough to "explode" a gun no matter how much "surface area" is exposed. Even if ALL the potential kinetic energy of the charge were somehow released all at once it isn't sufficient.

Light charge "detonation" is seriously unlikely.

I'd say you're better advised to worry more about reasonable velocities in the Mouse Fart Ballistic Olympics that is Cowboy Action Shooting to prevent sticking bullets in the barrel.

Why not slingshots and spitwads? Loading super super light as is often done makes tiddlywinks the next step in ballistic potency. What CAS is promoting in allowing super light loads well below loading manual minimums, even for already mild cartridges like the .38 Special, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Rarely do .45 ACP shooters experience gun destroying pressures. Far more common is the case bulge or blowout of the weak unsupported section of the case. Obviously this is not a "detonation" that results in a gun wreck.

I rather seriously doubt your case blowout in a .45 ACP was due to too light a charge of powder. A blowout of the case head only is due to overpressure that is far below that required to destroy the gun, and the unsupported .45 ACP case will blow out due to a double charge. The case will vent, and if the rest of the gun is undamaged the pressure was FAR below that needed to completely blow up the gun, as you appear to fear from light charges. This is in the nature of a double charge in the low pressure .45 ACP case. Even double charges of many standard loads in .45 ACP don't possess the KE to completely blow up the gun. Why? The pressure is low to begin with, and double charging often moves pressure into rifle range. The 1911 can withstand this, at least for a few shots. The case definitely cannot.

Hatcher experimented with double, triple and heavier charges in the 1911. Double and heavier charges blew the case out. Quadruple charges destroyed the gun. Triple charges bulged the barrel. If the "detonation" of light charges of powder was factual and is gun destroying, where was the absolute destruction in your case? That fact that triple to quadruple charges were needed to blow the gun up (Hatcher's Texbook of Pistols and Revolvers, p. 378) further reinforces my statement that there is not enough KE in a super light charge to blow up anything - somehow 1/3 to 1/4 the powder is supposed to produce the same pressure? Not at all likely. Especially when you consider the .45 bullet is free to move out of the way before pressure builds up to any "detonative" level with a super light charge.

Only with the enormously greater KE potential of a triple charge greatly increasing the actual burn rate of the powder because the bullet cannot get out of the way fast enough is a "detonation" occurance likely. Actually, it's a fast powder running at far, far higher pressure than it's designed to run, thus burning super fast - and a blowup.

Another possibility is a bullet driven deeply into the case in the feeding cycle due to poor tension, as may occur with certain die combinations and Remington brass, for instance. Not being able to locate an exact cause does not make an unlikely and unproven conjecture that is not supported by the experiences of most shooters and actual testing a fact.

The fact of the matter is that light charges of fast powder that take up a small amount of case volume have been used for many years. Given sources like Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading, the findings of the NRA, ballistic tests and recommendations of such authorities over 100 years, if "light charges blow up" had any validity it would have been substantiated by this time, given the millions of cartridges fired to date that have been so loaded.

It hasn't. Does that tell you anything?

[WildmanJack]

35, I guess you have a point. I know a number of cowboy shooters that shoot rounds that are not much more than a mouse fart. But , I have to tell you, it is a hell of a lot of fun. I realize that none of the rounds are true to the way they were way back then, but then personally, I'm not in it for that. Getting all cowboyed up and letting rip with your six guns is a hoot. I shot competitive .45 ACP and .22 in NRA shoots for many years and still love that kind of shooting, I shoot IDPA now and it too is a blast.. This is just something different to do.
Oh before I forget. That .45 CP round that blew on me was one of 15 rounds I loaded and weighed individually. Just an experiment to see how light I could go and still operate the slide. I was totally shocked when I heard this mild little Pffft, and all that black smoke came up out of the gun, the round went down range but that's about it. I was using once fired Winchester brass, and just figured it may have been a defective case, or a case that may have gone off out of battery. But be that as it may. I truly appreciate your input about ignition of small amounts of powder. After reading a few other boards, I wondered if that theory really held water..
Thanks again to all for the suggestions...
Jack....

:drinks:

[35remington]

I understand loading light, so don't get me wrong.

I just don't understand loading super light. There isn't any difference in recoil, and the thought of lodging a bullet in a long barrel and firing another immediately behind it bothers me.

Here's a clue why what you experienced wasn't a detonation.

"the round went down range but that's about it."

Low pressure makes a bullet travel at low speed. High pressure makes a bullet travel at high speed. If you detonated a case, believe me, the bullet would have receive enough impulse from pressure to go downrange very rapidly. Even if the case blew out, because the bullet receives most of its impulse from the powder charge in .45 ACP even before the bullet clears the case mouth. Especially in the event of very fast burning, high pressures. A blowup produces vigorous motion of the slide and heavy recoil as well. If these things didn't happen pressures weren't high enough for a blowup. From your statement pressures sound like they were quite low.

"I was using once fired Winchester brass, and just figured it may have been a defective case, or a case that may have gone off out of battery."

That's a lot more plausible.

Weak bullet velocity and no recoil mean no "detonation."

If the case blew out under high pressure, believe me, you wouldn't forget it. Trashed magazine, remaining rounds in magazine telescoped and mangled, follower destroyed, spring mangled, grips split with splinters and brass bits in your hand.

[WildmanJack]

About 30 years ago I was shooting a centerfire match over in West Palm Beach. At the time I was shooting a Jim Clark custom 1911 super .38 he had customed to fire .38 wad cutters. I had a round blow in that gun. Blew the side of the case out, messed up all the rest of the rounds in the mag, and blew the slabs off the side of the gun. it was a real wake up call. I took the gun to a gunsmith and found that someone ( not Mr. Clark) had made the feed ram a little deeper than it should have been so it didn't support part of the case . I never shot that gun again!
I agree with super light loads. The day that happened I was just messing around with really light loads, loading only one round at a time and writing down the results. I'll stick with Hodgdon's suggestions for light loads in my .357. I know that way I'll not have to worry about sticking a slug in the pipe..
Jack

[sniper]

Light loads are fun, and the only danger that I can see or have experienced, is a bullet stuck in the barrel. If economy is the rationale, how much does one load of any powder cost, anyhow? That kind of stuff is what the .22 Long rifle is for.

Some years ago, a gunzine carried an article about light loads, soooo... I ran right out and tried it. As I recall, the scrivener recommended picking a light load of Unique, and reducing it by half, until we came to "the" load. So I reduced my standard load of 5.5 gr. by half a couple of times, I got to one little tiny Lee dipper (can't remember the charge weight) in the 357 case, loaded 141 gr. wadcutters over it.(no filler) and sure enough, I stuck a bullet!

After that, somehow, I didn't see much need for really light loads, so never tried it again.

Of course, the little guy at the range, who asked his mother; "Mommy, why is that man banging on his gun?" as I was driving the bullet out of the barrel might have had something to do with it. :mrgreen:

[trickg]

i use cotton balls for filler. they leave no residue behind, hold the charge in the bottom well and are easy to use...i highly recommend them.
I actually read about using cotton filler in an article recently, and up until that point, I was unaware that it was something that could or should be done.

[35remington]

Dacron is superior to cotton balls. Lighter, no problems with flammability, cheaper.

Read posts here in archives for how to employ it properly.

[Christian for Israel]

i don't know about cheaper as i have no source for dacron (it may well BE cheaper) but flammability isn't an issue for me here in the desert. where do you get your dacron? i use plain old facial cotton balls.

as for light loads, that's something i won't mess with in a pistol but i do find it useful for varmint loads in my .30-06. normally i load 10gr of ramshot 'zip' under a 93gr 1R lee boolit (with filler, of course).

[35remington]

It's sold as pillow stuffing in hobby or craft stores. Two bucks for a big pillowcase full. A lifetime supply. Often says "100% polyester fiberfill" on the bags.

Apply so all the airspace is taken up by the dacron filler. This usually amounts to a few tenths of a grain in most loads. Its extreme light weight is a plus. Poke in the case with a square bladed screwdriver but do not compress it - just gently place it against the powder.

Again, no airspace between powder and bullet.

[Christian for Israel]

thanks, i'll try it.

[Freightman]

i don't know about cheaper as i have no source for dacron (it may well BE cheaper) but flammability isn't an issue for me here in the desert. where do you get your dacron? i use plain old facial cotton balls.

as for light loads, that's something i won't mess with in a pistol but i do find it useful for varmint loads in my .30-06. normally i load 10gr of ramshot 'zip' under a 93gr 1R lee boolit (with filler, of course).

The next time you have an old pillow (unless you use feather pillows) cut it open get a large trash bag and fill it with the insides all you will need for a very long time. If you do not have that source Wal Mart has bags that are in the sewing/hobby section sometimes for $0.99 which will keep you loading for a long time.

[missionary5155]

Here again is another example of a GOOD sport going down the tubes because "WE must have the edge" so we can WIN ! If "winning" (your name in print on a sheet of paper) is all there is by forgetting that NO cowboy ever desired the weakest possible load then I guess you have your prize.... but what good is a load that bounces off the feathers of a sparrow ? I am hoping CASS wakes up and gets a MINIMUM POWER FACTOR (realistic) in place.

[WildmanJack]

Here again is another example of a GOOD sport going down the tubes because "WE must have the edge" so we can WIN ! If "winning" (your name in print on a sheet of paper) is all there is by forgetting that NO cowboy ever desired the weakest possible load then I guess you have your prize.... but what good is a load that bounces off the feathers of a sparrow ? I am hoping CASS wakes up and gets a MINIMUM POWER FACTOR (realistic) in place.

Missionary5155,
I have come to the realization that you and a few others like REmington35 are right. I often wonder if one of those "Champion SASS shooters" were to have to shoot real loads what the out come would be. I think I'm going to go back to the books and just load nice shootin, rounds and forget the recoil. I personally I only compete against one person...ME... I've won more shootin trophies than I even want and now it's just for fun. Gettin Cowboy'd up makin noise and knocking down a few chickens.. I'm done with the super light loads, just gonna go shoot and the heck with the time or the recoil. Shoot enough and the recoil won't have much effect on your scores anyway..

:castmine:so I can :Fire: and then have a few:drinks:

[Echo]

+1 for Missionary5155 - Maybe they would consider airgun competition for CASS.

(A year ago, at the range I volunteer at, a new CASS shooter showed up with NEW matching Colt SAA's, w/consecutive SR's. He had purchased a Dillon and reloaded a bunch for his pets. The first shot had no powder - the primer lodged the bullet in the forcing cone. A moneyed newbie... there is probably more to say, but I will refrain.)

[Heavy lead]

I don't shoot CAS, however it does look fun.
Here is the question I have:
Isn't there much more danger of a ricochet due to a light or super light load with those steel targets, than a heavier one.
20 years ago I decided I was going to load some roundballs with a tiny snuff pinch of bullseye, can't remember how much, but it was a recommended load from a manual, I shot a few into the oak and hickory wood pile and took one in the shin. That was it for me, it didn't go into my let, but in hurt like h&%$! Isn't there a risk of a fairly round, short rnfp going really slow as well ricocheting?
Just a thought.
Any experience?

[Christian for Israel]

i don't care to participate in CAS. i use my light loads specifically for shooting varmints with my .30 rifles. that way i always use the same rifle and don't have to bother taking a .22 into the field with me. currently i'm loading 65 gr pellets into my .30-06 on top of 8 gr of ramshot 'zip' powder. they're accurate out to 100 yards and should kill a dog sized target, though i don't have a chrony to figure out velocity or energy.

[rusty marlin]

Here again is another example of a GOOD sport going down the tubes because "WE must have the edge" so we can WIN ! If "winning" (your name in print on a sheet of paper) is all there is by forgetting that NO cowboy ever desired the weakest possible load then I guess you have your prize.... but what good is a load that bounces off the feathers of a sparrow ? I am hoping CASS wakes up and gets a MINIMUM POWER FACTOR (realistic) in place.


They do have one. And it is realistic, in comparison to the Cap and Ball black powder ballistics of the day.

http://www.sassnet.com/NewsArticle.php?subaction=showfull&id=1203940800&archive=&start_from=&ucat=6&


Lets see if I can answer a few other questions while I'm at it.


I often wonder if one of those "Champion SASS shooters" were to have to shoot real loads what the out come would be.

They'd still clean the course of fire and still clean your clock. The light loads aren't what makes a champion shooter, its the hours of practice and 10's of thousands of rounds fired per year that make a SASS champion.

In reality the champion shooters, by a vast majority, are not the ones shooting the mouse fart loads, its the wannabes that can't stand getting beat every week. You will find that the high end shooters are launching 125 grain or heavier .38's at 700 to 900 FPS. The super light loads aren't consistent in thier ignition from shot to shot and run the risk of a sqib. A high end shooter has to have ABSOLUTE TOTAL CONFINDENCE that every time the hammer drops the round will fire and strike steel. These shooters simply go too fast to catch a squib. If you want to know how fast they go do a google search on sass world records. They run single actions revolvers faster than an autoloader.
Not that I'm an expert, but I do know what I'm talking about.

Rusty Marlin
SASS NH State Champion 2001, 2003
SASS ME State Top Gun 2002

And shot with .44 specials with 200grain pills at 650FPS. ;)

[35remington]

"They run single actions revolvers faster than an autoloader."

If you mean they shoot their single actions faster than they themselves shoot an autoloader, that may be true.

But an autoloader mechanism can cycle much faster than the fastest shooter can shoot a revolver, even Miculek or McGivern. Calculations show the cyclic rate of a 1911 is about three times that of a double or single action revolver, inclusive of "fanning the hammer. The trigger must return forward on the double action, and if the single action is fanned, the hand must move forward and back to complete the stroke.

Both are slower than an autoloader, many of which run around 1500 rpm in cyclic rate.

When both are used to include the human element, single actions are still not faster than autoloaders assuming skilled shooters and even allowing for unaimed fire in the single action.

Watch Leatham or Miculek with an autoloader some time. Compare speeds.

[rusty marlin]

for pure mechanical speed you are correct, but when the human factor is thrown in...
I don't remember how many IPSC and IDPA shooters I showed what "fast" means by burning their butts in 5 shot drills, and yes on a timer. Me and my SA and them and thier semi-automatic. I got more them my fair share of fee sodas. ;)

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I first started reloading I used a Lee Loadmaster. It is a long learning curve, but that is another story.

Anyhow, my first couple of hundred .38 Spcls were a hit and miss affair. The first time I popped a primer in a load without any powder in the casing it locked up my S & W 586 like a bank vault. The round did not clear the forcing cone and part of it was still in the casing. Shooting done for that day.

I learned to take a range rod and mallet for the following stuck rounds. When my reloading skills grew I started to load for 9 MM. One day while shooting another S & W, a model 39 I dropped the hammer on a dud round. Again no powder just a primer.

Of course I was in the middle of a fast clip and when I heard just a pop rather than a full report I stopped. Dropped the mag and made sure the barrel was clear. It was.

My friend to my left was on the ground laughing his head off. The weapon fired and the boolit just cleared the barrel and bounced about 3 feet ahead of me onto the ground. He thought it was hilarious. He asked me to make up some rounds for him just like that but wanted me to put in COW instead of powder to make a puff of smoke.

That weapon had lite enuf springs to cycle the action and eject the round but not enuf to strip a new one from the magazine. I made up some rounds for my friend and he loved to surprise his friends with his special reloads. However I told him that he should load only one round in the mag and check to make sure that the boolit clears the barrel before resuming the festivities.

I shoot a plinking 8 MM round using COW as a filler over light charges of powder to ensure that I do not get big swings in muzzel velocity. Using a light charge and a cast boolit I used to get vertical stringing at 100 yds. Adding a Lee scoop of COW to allow a slightly compressed charge stopped that and keeps my MV within a narrower deviation.

As I load those 8 MM rounds with a 50 round loading tray it is easy and safe to do. I do not have to clean my rifle anymore as the COW does a good job with every shot. However some of my shooting buddies are wondering about the smell and all the white crap floating around in the air. It it my secret. They are shooting VMBAR with full power military surplus rounds and their accuracy shows it. I get up there and my Mauser sounds like a .22 compared to the report of theirs. I am good to about 200 yards. After that I go to a full power round to reach out the 300 and 600 yd targets after I readjust my sights.

My iron sights with full power loads are good from 300 yds at the lowest setting and can be adjusted higher for longer shots. With the iron sights and full power loads I am hitting 12" high at 100 and a little lower at 200. I needed to get a taller front sight or do something else.

Something else was loading down the round and using CB and COW. It is easier on the shoulder and the pocket.

[Bullshead]

I am loading new unfired .357 brass for cowboy action shooting. I'm using a 125 grain Pb cast Boolit over 2.5 grains of Clays. I'm concerned with the theory that too light a powder charge could cause an explosion

That's a VERY light load.........you're better off using that in a .38 Special case especially since it's used in a revolver.

As an 8 year veteran of Cowboy Action Shooting I've been thru the ENTIRE loading experience.
I started with phart loads........and shot them for quite some time.

But.......after 8 years I've standardized on moderate level loads in the revolvers and fairly warm loads in the rifles.

WHY?

It's an accepted fact in the higher level shooters (match winners, club champions, state and national winners) that higher pressure loads and thereby faster velocity loads work better in competition for several reasons.

1) When shooting lower pressure, lighter loads the brain has a tendency to wait and watch for the bullet impact on the target. That slows you down.

2) Your body responds in a positive manner with regards to recoil and target acquisition.......your body feels the recoil and programs itself for the next target.

3) Spotters are sometimes good......and sometimes they're bad........a stronger CLANG on the target insures a better response from the spotters than a "tink" from light loads.

4) Higher pressure loads seal better in the chamber and diminish blow-by past the cartridge case toward the shooters face.

CLAYS is a very good powder, a nice clean powder........I use it in my .45 Colt loads.

The 125 gr slug is a good weight.........but I'd suggest an increase to at least 3.0 grs for the revolvers.

If you're using a .38/.357 mag rifle I'd suggest going to the 3.5 gr maximum load.

May I ask why you are using .357 mag cases for Cowboy Action Shooting?

I've used fillers when I was shooting phart loads........they work good.......but with the warmer loads, fillers are not necessary.

I used foam backer rod in 3/8 inch diameter for the .38 Spec loads and cut it about 1/2 inch long and pushed it into the case after the powder and before the bullet was seated/crimped.

[Bullshead]

I often wonder if one of those "Champion SASS shooters" were to have to shoot real loads what the out come would be.

I shoot Cowboy..........As I mentioned in my last post I shoot "real loads".......come compete with me and the loser buys lunch! :drinks:

[WildmanJack]

Bullshead,
I guess I ruffled some feathers with that comment and sure didn't mean to. After years of shooting .45 ACP matches and then watching some of the cowboy shoots on TV it sure seemed like they were shooting really light loads.
I have already moved to 3.5 of Clays, and found it a nice comfortable load. As far as using .357 cowboy is cause I picked up 2500 rounds of unfired un primed for $25.00 and didn't have very many empty .38 brass. Otherwise no particular reason...

[Bullshead]

I have already moved to 3.5 of Clays, and found it a nice comfortable load. As far as using .357 cowboy is cause I picked up 2500 rounds of unfired un primed for $25.00 and didn't have very many empty .38 brass. Otherwise no particular reason...

Excellent find! :-D