38/357 die spacers

[Bmi48219]

Anyone know of an alternate source for (.135") 38 / 357 spacers? I want to buy a couple but the only ones I find online ( Brownell, Midway) are the Redding Spacer kit. It contains one along with a .125 for 44 / 44 mag and a no crimp spacer. I don't need those, just two of the .135 spacers. Nothing on flea bay either.

[JBinMN]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/312274/redding-die-spacer-135-height-38-special-357-magnum
^ Just the spacer^

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well this is interesting.
I don't use those bushings and I have several 38/357 die sets, so I went and looked at what I had, that I could part with. I found two bushings, one in a RCBS 38/357 die set and another one in a Pacific 38 spl die set.
Both of these bushings measure .1275
I am reasonably sure those rings originated with those sets, at least when I got them used at a gunshow, although I can't recall when? BUT both sets appear to be older than me, so I got them used somewhere.

[JBinMN]

JonB,

I have two RCBS dies sets I got back in the early 80s ( Steel 38/357Mag & 44spec/44Mag) & they both came with spacers in the kit & not an extra that one had to go buy. I went down to the bench measured them & they are 0.125 for the 38/357 & 0.127 for the 44.

I do not know why the Redding one in the link I posted is 0.135. I also do not know why there would be 0.010 difference, except for perhaps they wanted the finished rounds on the .357 to be that much longer for some reason.
But it is confusing to me a bit.
???

[JBinMN]

The kit is a better deal for $11.99 rather than $5.99 for just one, but only if ya have the weapons/dies to use them. It shows this list of the 3 for thicknesses:

Kit Contains:
No-Crimp or partial resizing spacer (.062)
44 Special/44 Magnum spacer (.125)
38 Special/357 Magnum spacer (.135)


Here is the link at Midway:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/189290/redding-die-spacer-kit

-------------------

I still don't understand the need to have a .010 for the 38/357 though.
As ya said...Interesting. I have never had any trouble using the ones I have, although I have not ever used them that often. I like to recheck things too much I suppose.

P.S> - Now it is making me wonder if I somehow got them mixed up years ago, or they were not correct in the first place... ??? Got me puzzled...

[NoAngel]

I guess I'm the fly in the ointment here but is it really that hard to screw the die in to touch the shell holder? How much time can the spacer really save? It takes me less that 10 seconds to screw a die into a press. I guess I'm just too simple minded.

[JBinMN]

I can't speak for others, but the only times I have used mine is when I have been working up loads with different powders on each weapon to test the amounts & types of powders, using the same bullet profile/type, in small batches of 10 or so. The only other times I have used one is when I was loading up a lot of both calibers with the same bullet type & only change was to be powder measure. It saved me from setting for the 38 & 357 for the same bullet type all of the time. I just add the spacer.
( I.E> - when I was only reloading a lot of WC for each, the spacer worked fine, & there was no need to keep adjusting the locknut/etc. for each bullet/boolit type or profile, but if I go from WC to SWC on the 38 & a Factory bullet for the 357, then the spacer is not always appropriate and I would have to set each for the type of profile I was using for each caliber.)

I hope that makes sense. I tried anyway.

I don't know why the OP wants them, but I would speculate that he has more than one press or more than one operator & using different types of bullet/bullet profiles thus intending to save set up time... IDK??

[2011redrider]

Just call RCBS and they will send them to you. I have 2 from 44 mag die sets, and but some used 38/357 die sets that didn't have the spacers. Called RCBS and they sent them, just specify the spacers for 38/357 dies since they are the .135 that you are looking for.

[Bmi48219]

According to specs a 357 casing is .135" longer than a 38 special casing. My intent is to load RNFP in both cartridges. I assume (and will soon find out) that by using a .135" spacer under the .38 special flaring die I will get the same amount of flare on the 357 as I get using a un-spaced 38 flare die on 38 case. And the same assumption for seat/crimp. As long as my 38 cases are trimmed to uniform length and same for 357 cases.
i took a micrometer with me to Ace Hardware after starting this thread. Found welded steel rings, slightly larger than 7/8" ID. They mike to .137". $1.10 each. Going to give them a try, once my Xtreme order arrives.

[M-Tecs]

I guess I'm the fly in the ointment here but is it really that hard to screw the die in to touch the shell holder? How much time can the spacer really save? It takes me less that 10 seconds to screw a die into a press. I guess I'm just too simple minded.

You don't use the spacer on the size die. It's used for the expander and crimp/seater dies. Carbide sizing dies and crimp dies should not be touching the shell holder. How could a single crimp die that is touching the shell holder work with two different case lengths?

[NoAngel]

Well obviously it couldn't. Not sure where my head was at with the sizer die. Can you have a middle aged senior moment cause I'm pretty sure I just did.

I'm so used to the way I do things I forget everyone else does things different. I never lock the locking rings and I back off the seater every time I am done with it. I never know what I will be loading and I always have to sneak up on the first one to get the OAL I want so I have just made it a habit for every die I use.
As far as the carbide goes, I never cam it over but I run the ram all the way up and run the die down till it touches. There's no pressure on it so it can't hurt anything. If anything there's probably a couple of thousandths of backlash in the linkage that give it clearance when under pressure.

[jmorris]

I know it's not what you asking about but you can get a cheap indicator and make a mount for it that makes many adjustments repeatable with precision.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssw-AbNH7N4

[JBinMN]

More & more Interesting...

So I wonder now, that I rec'd the wrong spacer for my 38/357 die set when I bought the set years ago. It did just fine in the past as far as I could tell. Although I did not use it that often. That 0.010 did not seem to be an issue then. And I was getting ready to use it again in a week or so when I was going to load up a bunch(approx 300) of 38 & 357 with the same WCs for each cartridge.

Another ??? for me to figure out.

I am gonna ponder on this for a while to see why it would even matter about that there would be that much difference ( 0.010). Might even ask RCBS about it if it gets to bothering me & I can't figure it on my own.

I never had 44 Spec., so I never needed to use it on the 44 dies. but the .125 is right in there for the cartridge length difference...

Yes.. Very interesting.

+ It looks like JonB has the same problem with both of his die sets with the measurements at .1275 & they are different makers of the die sets...

Another ???

Sheeesh...This is likely gonna be a "rabbit hole" for me...

Gonna Thank Bmi48219 for the Ace tip & for posting his question in the first place, & JonB from Glencoe for his comment, or I would not have known that what I had is supposedly an incorrect spacer. Even though my efforts to help find the spacer online didn't work for the OP...

[SARuger]

I have two sets of the older, non carbide, RCBS 38/357 dies sets that both have .127 spacers with them. I ordered and use the Redding .135 spacer since that is the actual length difference between .38spcl and .357mag. I never used the dies with the .127 spacer so i don't know if the will work or not but logic would say that you will have a tighter crimp and a deeper set bullet.

[Bmi48219]

My goal is to make reloading these cartridges as safe, simple and repeatable as possible. One press, a T Mag, and plenty of turrets. Setting up one turret for 38 / 357. Hoping I can get the dies set to load both with minimal, easily made adjustments. Thanks for all the help. Will post how the substitute rings work out.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

+ It looks like JonB has the same problem with both of his die sets with the measurements at .1275 & they are different makers of the die sets...

That's why I posted. I measured my Bushings and expected them to be .135
when they weren't, I wondered why the OP wanted .135 and also why Redding offered .135
then I looked up the case length specs for 38 and 357, then discovered...heck yeah, they should be .135
and why are my two bushings (that I never used) measuring at .1275 ?

I hoped a conversation would ensue.

[JBinMN]

Well, there is a connection going on here that looks it may not be a "fluke". I, along with JonB & now SARuger all have older RCBS 38/357 die sets ( + JonB's Pacific die set that came with a spacer at .1275) seems to point to there was a reason those sets came with those particular spacers at that particular thickness of .127+/-. If RCBS had sold them with that spacer by mistake, then that would be one thing, but the Pacific one then becomes an outlier. The Pacific one could have been like what the OP did & someone just put the spacer in the set by asking someone with an RCBS die set how thick the spacer was & just got one from somewhere, or had one made.

But it still seems unusual that all of the spacers(RCBS) are that .127 thickness when the cases are .135. In my case, it is certainly possible that I bought the spacers as extra 35 years ago, but I don't remember. I seem to think they came with the die sets... What I do know is that in the box I kept my reloading gear in from long ago has many of the rec'ts from when I bought the items. I have not yet gone through the rec'ts to see if there is any for the spacers, since I think they came with the sets, but at the time I got the spacers it is a possibility that I did buy them separate and just grabbed the wrong spacer or the wrong one was in the spacer selection by mistake when they were stocked. As I said, it was 35 years ago & I remember buying the stuff at Dales Gun Shop in Rochester, but not the particulars of each item purchased.

So, for me, and apparently you others if it bothers ya like it does me, that there is a bit of a mystery going on and I want to know why. I intend to stop in to one of my local 2 hardware stores( we have an Ace here in our small town too) & see if they have a spacer that is .135 or so to try like the OP did. But the mystery will remain though & over time I will try to research why it was created & try to solve it.

If anyone else has a clue as to why/how this happened, it would be great to know.
;)

[JBinMN]

In the lower left corner of the 4th panel down of this PDF file of an RCBS instruction sheet is a black box with a "Special Note for Certain Calibers", where it mentions that the spacer comes with the set & how to use it. The last 2 sentences in the box says that, "This will give the approximate setting. However additional adjustment may be necessary, depending on the case length. " So, apparently my memory about them coming in the die set seems to hold. When I get the chance I will go downstairs & check the instruction manuals for the die sets I have & see if they have the same special not or something that describes the spacer & it's use. Along with looking to see if it is on the parts list breakdown, if there is one.

I might add that I went to the Midway site & looked at their 38/357 steel die set & it lists that you need to buy a separate shell holder, which is common, but there is no mention of whether or not the spacer is included now a days. I am guessing it is not.

Anyway, it is entirely possible that in the case of RCBS anyway, that they just included a spacer of one approx. thickness for the 38/357 & perhaps the 44spec/44mag also, but since the case differences in 44spec/44mag is .125 & the spacer I have for is .125 that one is correct. Perhaps someone was just putting the same approx. sized spacer in all of the die sets???

Well, I am gonna take a break from the mystery & do something else for now, but, this is sure interesting to me & I wonder how many others are not aware of this deal?
I am gonna bet not a lot of folks are aware of it, & I would guess many did like I did & just used the spacer as it came & did not check on whether or not it was .135 or not. "Hey, it came in the box sealed with it, must be right..." "Right?" LOL
;)

[SARuger]

I'm interested in hearing what the smart folks at RCBS has to say. I might try calling them today.

I use the Redding spacer with all of my 38/357 die sets, even the LEE that I have as I drill out/tap the LEE rings for a set screw, its easier on the turret press to just remove the seating die, PTE die, and FCD, then place a spacer under them than to keep messing with the die adjustment.

I have a total of (6) 38/357 die sets that I use often. I ordered enough spacers to keep Redding in business for a while.

[Bmi48219]

Come to think of it, Ace had bushing-like washers / shims, I think they were called "motor support or motor spacing washers. They had them in either .125 or .127 thickness, among others. Also big diameter flat washers in that thickness. Could .127 be a standard gauge thickness? For sure .125"= 1/8".

[bedbugbilly]

I solved the issue of die adjustment and shims but not in the cheaper way of using shims. I primarily load 38 specials as I prefer that cartridge over the 357 - old hands, a little recoil sensitive at times. But, when I got a .357 Handi-Rifle, I found myself loading more 357 and it was a PIA in readjusting the dies. I use a Lee classic 4 hole turret press. I ended up buying another set of 38/357 dies and now have a separate turret plate for each - one for 38s and one for 357s.

38/357 dies are probably one of the most common die sets out there and used sets are fairly easy to find. If you are doing a lot of switching off from 38s to 357s and back again, why not just pick up a used set and set the die ring nuts to the correct locations - one set for 38s and one for 357s? I'm guessing that you could probably find a used set for about the same price that you'd pay for a set of shims with the added shipping.

Just a thought . . . .

[SARuger]

I solved the issue of die adjustment and shims but not in the cheaper way of using shims. I primarily load 38 specials as I prefer that cartridge over the 357 - old hands, a little recoil sensitive at times. But, when I got a .357 Handi-Rifle, I found myself loading more 357 and it was a PIA in readjusting the dies. I use a Lee classic 4 hole turret press. I ended up buying another set of 38/357 dies and now have a separate turret plate for each - one for 38s and one for 357s.

38/357 dies are probably one of the most common die sets out there and used sets are fairly easy to find. If you are doing a lot of switching off from 38s to 357s and back again, why not just pick up a used set and set the die ring nuts to the correct locations - one set for 38s and one for 357s? I'm guessing that you could probably find a used set for about the same price that you'd pay for a set of shims with the added shipping.

Just a thought . . . .

I've done this as well. In fact I have 6 sets of .38/.357 dies, 3 LEE, 3 RCBS. Three turrets set up with powder measures, two for 38 and one for 357. But I also single stage load .357 for precision and I have die sets with my "Bug Out" reloading box that I use for both .357 and 38. So I put spacers with all of the die sets just for the fact I can do both calibers with any of them. It's an OCD issue :-)

[dverna]

I solved the issue of die adjustment and shims but not in the cheaper way of using shims. I primarily load 38 specials as I prefer that cartridge over the 357 - old hands, a little recoil sensitive at times. But, when I got a .357 Handi-Rifle, I found myself loading more 357 and it was a PIA in readjusting the dies. I use a Lee classic 4 hole turret press. I ended up buying another set of 38/357 dies and now have a separate turret plate for each - one for 38s and one for 357s.

38/357 dies are probably one of the most common die sets out there and used sets are fairly easy to find. If you are doing a lot of switching off from 38s to 357s and back again, why not just pick up a used set and set the die ring nuts to the correct locations - one set for 38s and one for 357s? I'm guessing that you could probably find a used set for about the same price that you'd pay for a set of shims with the added shipping.

Just a thought . . . .

I went the same route but for different reasons. I load my .38 "plinking" rounds (130 gr) on a 1050 and decided to get a set of dies to load .357 (158 gr) on the 550. It was a minimal investment to avoid readjusting dies. Used dies in .38/.357 are easy to get inexpensive.

[Wayne Smith]

My solution is similar but older - I load 38's on my TrueLine Jr set up with dies and a Lyman 55. Dedicated setup.

[fecmech]

I went to Ace Hardware and got 2 Pcs of 1/8 key stock 1/2" long. I have the lock rings set on my seat and tapercrimp dies set for .38 spl. When I load .357 I back the die out, put 2 pieces of keystock between the die and the press and snug it down. Quick and easy!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I solved the issue of die adjustment and shims but not in the cheaper way of using shims. I primarily load 38 specials as I prefer that cartridge over the 357 - old hands, a little recoil sensitive at times. But, when I got a .357 Handi-Rifle, I found myself loading more 357 and it was a PIA in readjusting the dies. I use a Lee classic 4 hole turret press. I ended up buying another set of 38/357 dies and now have a separate turret plate for each - one for 38s and one for 357s.

38/357 dies are probably one of the most common die sets out there and used sets are fairly easy to find. If you are doing a lot of switching off from 38s to 357s and back again, why not just pick up a used set and set the die ring nuts to the correct locations - one set for 38s and one for 357s? I'm guessing that you could probably find a used set for about the same price that you'd pay for a set of shims with the added shipping.

Just a thought . . . .
yeah, this was the route I choose as well, I had 2 sets for the longest time, when I got into casting my own and learned/experienced the nuances of loading boolits, I found some seaters weren't cast friendly, so I started buying all the used sets that I could find inexpensively, and now have lot's of choices when having issues with a new boolit. The seater from the pacific set (that came with 3 inserts) seems to be the most universal for the molds I have and has the best for WC. I really dislike the RCBS seater, but it works great as a crimper for 38 with the internals removed. I prefer the Lee FCD (collet style) for crimping 357.

[JBinMN]

I checked & the instructions do have the "box" that says the same thing as the online PDF file. They instructions also have the breakdown of parts but do not include the spacer in the parts lists I have.

Thanks again to Bmi48219 for starting the topic, as it helped discover this incongruity, so it might get corrected or "solved" for those of us that care/are concerned.
:)

I also appreciate the advice/alternatives/posts about this "spacer thickness mystery"/ situation.
Thanks for the help!
:)

SARuger, If you call RCBS, I, & I am pretty sure some others, would sure like to hear/read about what they say about this spacer deal.
;)

[375supermag]

Hi...
I have never used the spacer rings for .38/357Magnum die sets.
I set my dies for a particular bullet...I have bullet seating dies set up for about 6 different bullet styles/weight for .357Magnum.
I currently only shoot one bullet in.38Spl so I have a dedicated set of dies for all of my .38Spl reloading.
I do the same for .44Spl/44Magnum as well. Dedicated seating dies for each bullet whether jacketed or cast.

I almost always buy a separate seating die for whatever bullet type/style I use in any given caliber. I just don't like to fiddle with constantly adjusting seating dies.

[Bmi48219]

I just talked to RCBS CS, had to replace some seating stems. The gentleman I spoke to said while the trim-to case length is .135" longer, they only make the .125" spacer. He didn't know why but that is the thickness they have always provided.
stem-wise,
RCBS is sending me a RN .35 cal seating stem so I can seat RNFP Xtreme bullets with my .38 / 357 die. The current stem is for wad utters. Also sending the same (.35) diameter size for my 45 die. I have a RN seating stem in my 45 seat / crimp die now but the depth of the radius end in the seater piston isn't deep enough to fully align a 230 RN. As a consequence unless I start the bullets an 1/8" with a leather mallet before putting the round into the seat / crimp die, the bullet cocks off center ( 20% of the time) shaving the jacket. Most times these loaded rounds won't fully chamber. I'm not too thrilled about the .10" difference in diameter of the .35 seat piston in the 45 die sleeve, I guess I'll have to rely on the rigidly of the 1/4" stem thread stem to hold the piston in the center of the die. CS said it will work fine. If I still have problems I can have a custom stem made.
But they wouldn't accept payment so kudos to RCBS again. Just affirms my satisfaction with RCBS.

[JBinMN]

Thanks for sharing your info. Apparently the "mystery" is solved by the fella you spoke with. That they "always provided" that thickness. Kinda bummed he couldn't say the "why", but no matter.

Still gonna go check out Ace anyway for those thicker washers ya spoke of. Going right by there this afternoon anyway.
:)

Thanks again!
:)

[lightman]

This thread prompted me to go and dig around on the die shelf and check mine. My 357 dies are made in 1989 and the spacer measures .127. My 44 die set was made in 1990 and the spacer measures .126. I have never used these, preferring to simply readjust the dies. These look like the standard equipment shims that I have seen in industrial supply places.

[JBinMN]

I went to Ace today & bought a washer to use as a spacer, even though the ones I have seem to be acceptable. I just wanted to try the difference, just for personal interests sake.

The washer is .138 for the whole thing, but for where they put a stamp into it where it is .140 dimpling one side & making a bump on the other side from the stamp. I am going to either put it up against a sander or a grinder or a lil bit of both to get it to the .135 or relatively close. Total cost was $1.49 + tax. less than 1.60.

Worth it to me, to give it a try. WT heck?
;)

[SARuger]

I went to Ace today & bought a washer to use as a spacer, even though the ones I have seem to be acceptable. I just wanted to try the difference, just for personal interests sake.

The washer is .138 for the whole thing, but for where they put a stamp into it where it is .140 dimpling one side & making a bump on the other side from the stamp. I am going to either put it up against a sander or a grinder or a lil bit of both to get it to the .135 or relatively close. Total cost was $1.49 + tax. less than 1.60.

Worth it to me, to give it a try. WT heck?
;)

Tape some 1600grit to a piece of glass and use a "figure 8" motion while sanding each side flat, should do the trick and some light oil will help as well.

I rebuild railroad air brake systems and many of the sealing surfaces are brass on brass, we have a lapping machine for this job that takes surfaces to flatness of 1 millionth of a inch, but hand lapping is just as effective to achieve flatness.

Glass is a common source for a flat surface. Us light pressure as glass does bend and you will cut the edges of the washer and not the center.

[hd09]

Steel Arbor Shim Assortment Kit, Matte, Full Hard, AISI 1008-1010 For Chemistry, 7/8'' ID, 1-3/8'' OD (Pack of 19)These are a good assortment. Around $15

[Bmi48219]

JB, what size washer did you buy? I looked at some that measured .140" but I would have had to grind the OD to get them to fit or leave every other die out of my turret. I tried one of the .137" "welded steel rings" last night. Slipped under the lock ring of my previously set .38 flaring die. Flared about 150 pieces of .357. It appears the ring being .002" oversize doesn't result in a big difference in the amount of flare. In fact I can't detect a difference in flare diameter when compared to a .38 flared w/o the ring in place. I'll know more when I have .357 bullets to seat but so far I can live with +.002
Incase anyone else goes with welded rings, pick through the bin until you find ones that don't have an offset at the weld.

[JBinMN]

SARuger,

The washer is a hardened steel one, I believe. I went through about 3 trips back & forth to borrow their v.calipers from across the store, checking the thickness of 3 different types of washers, then finally asked if I could just take the V.C. to the aisle to check & save me time of walking back & forth. I should have brought my own but I forgot it... But if I remember correctly it is a hardened steel one.

Anyway, I am going to take the dimple spot to the grinder first to try to get that close to the .138 of the rest of the washer. Then I will either try using a belt sander or palm sander & if that gets me close I will go to the lapping method you mention. It will be a trial and error thing. I live a mile from the store & can go get another any time if I do happen to mess this one up so it won't work. It won't take long to find out how the other methods do, as I am going to be only doing 1/2 of one side at a time, by holding the washer in a vice grip to get that dimple spot out. If it goes faster than I want & seems to abrade more material by a light touch, then I will move on to the other methods. Thanks for your tip & I will certainly keep it in mind.
:)

Bmi48219,

I do not remember what "exactly" is the size other than it said, 7/8 x ??? ( <About 1-1/8th if I remember right. It is down on my bench right now), and I remember exactly which bin it was in , in the aisle they keep nuts bolts & washers + specialty items, but do not remember the "name" of it. I did not ask for a rec't since it was just a small purchase & I did not intend to return it for any reason, or need it for taxes. I do not have a turret press, but I am guessing that it would take a little grinding to get it down to size. The other ones I have are maybe 1-1/16 or so in O.D., maybe a lil smaller. This washer is certainly larger than the "original" in O.D., & should work on my RC3S or the little LEE, but I can imagine that it won't work well on a turret type multiple station press. I can go back there later & look at the name, & to get ya a specific "number" or "name", if ya like. Just let me know here or in PM.
:)

If I get around to going downstairs I will get the actual measurements off of the factory & the recent bought washers for those who want to know & for comparison.
:)

[Bmi48219]

JB,
No need to get me the info but thanks for offering. I was just curious. I looked at Lowes & HD first as they were really close to home, nothing there. I can live with the welded rings for now.
Once I get the 38 / 357 spacers confirmed I will, sooner or later, start on spacers for 9mm & 45 acp so I can set Hollow Points & RN without resetting dies. I think Ace had enough different "motor washers" (can't remember the exact name on the bin/box) to build up the spacer thickness I need.
I really don't like resetting dies.

[Rich/WIS]

Back many years ago when I loaded both 38 and 357 got two 7/8 ID washers and took them into the machine shop where I worked and cut them to .135 on a surface grinder. Only took a couple of minutes and had them for years. When I stopped reloading for the 38 I gave them to a friend who still does both. OD was not an issue as I loaded on a Lyman Spartan C press. Did have two that were same size as the die lock rings and if IIRC they were .135, but don't remember where (or when) I got them, they went with the other washers.

[Bmi48219]

Just an update on using the ACE Hardware .1375" welded steel rings as die spacers. My .357 CPRNFP bullets arrived. I set the .38 Special dies up on T Mag press & loaded 100 test rounds. COL with FP projectile is 1.4390" (crimped to show most of cannelure). Then backed out flaring & seating dies and put ACE rings under the lock rings. The test .357 loads are coming out at 1.587" with same amount of cannelure showing. With both COL's I am measuring a variance of +/- .001" and averaging .1395" longer COL for .357 than .38. Not sure where the extra .02" is coming from but I think I can live with it. With ACE ring under flaring die the .357 flare is good enough to hold projectile for seating. I will be range testing Tuesday.