Crazy Data in Old Manual

[jimkim]

First: I'm not using nor am I going to use the data. My question is, when did Ideal/Lyman start pressure testing their loads? I was looking at some OLD manuals tonight, and was shocked with the maximum charges they had listed. One that stuck out was a 30-30 load of 36.0gr of IMR-4895 under a 170gr jacketed bullet. That seems a bit on the warm side.

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[EDG]

Lyman started listing CUP pressures in manual #45 sometime around 1970.

[William Yanda]

just out of curiosity, what does Quickload predict? Anyone?

[rbuck351]

I have an early Speer Manual that shows some loads that are more powder than you can get in the case and that is not leaving any room for a bullet.

[BCB]

QuickLoad shows that as a 114% loading density--as mentioned will fill the case with no room for bullet...

QL predicts 65335 psi--A bit stiff for the 30-30 Winchester!!!...

Good-luck...BCB

[AZ Pete]

Speer #3 (1959) shows 38 g. of 4895 behind a 150 g. jacketed bullet as max. No indication if it was IMR or H.... They show 2374 fps for that load


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[BCB]

Speer #3 (1959) shows 38 g. of 4895 behind a 150 g. jacketed bullet as max. No indication if it was IMR or H.... They show 2374 fps for that load


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Just out of curiosity, I put 38 grains of 4895 in a 30-30 Winchester case and it comes to about 1/8" below the case mouth. It surely would be compressed with a 150 grain jacketed bullet. QL shows that as being a 109.3% loading density. And they show the velocity of 2342 fps which is not too far from what you are saying. But again, the pressure was way off the scale for a dirty-thirty...

Interesting this stuff is. I do remember when I first started reloading right around 1970, some of the loads I put into my Security-Six 357 Magnum (some time down the road from my beginning reloading) from published data seemed pretty wild. And that was a novice (me) looking at them after they were fired...

Some 1/2 dozen years farther down the road, Ruger put a new forcing cone in that handgun. Loads too hot? Or just a bad piece of steel in the forcing cone in the Ruger?...

Don't know, but I surely don't load to those numbers anymore...

The good ol' days!!!...

Good-luck...BCB

[jimkim]

I wonder if the older IMR-4895 had smaller kernels, or more density, or the cases were A LOT thinner. Gotta be one or the other. Another thing I noticed was the shotgun data. Only one powder list for every shell from 410 to 10 ga. That one powder was Red Dot. Funny thing is, the 410 Red Dot load was within a half grain of the 38-40 data I use for my brass cased slug rounds. Makes me wonder what kind of pressure 7.0 gr of Red Dot under a 1/2 oz of shot, and a 1/2" of felt produces. It didn't even show the wad pressure. I thought that was a critical part of the recipe, with felt wads. I do love reading the old manuals, even though the data is sometimes crazy.

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[Texas Tinker]

I too began reloading in the 1970s and my first reloading manuals were Lee and Lyman circa 1960ish. I remember being disappointed that I could rarely work up to a maximum listed load because I always followed the advice of my teachers and followed as closely as I could to the methods listed by Mr. Ken Waters for "working up to a maximum load for each gun" and measuring case head expansion.
As more detailed information and MUCH more conservative manuals became available. I realized the soundness of the advice and guidance I had received. I am very thankful to them all for the fact that I still have 2 eyes that see and all 5 digits on each hand.


Texas Tinker

[JohnH]

I wonder if the older IMR-4895 had smaller kernels, or more density, or the cases were A LOT thinner. Gotta be one or the other. Another thing I noticed was the shotgun data. Only one powder list for every shell from 410 to 10 ga. That one powder was Red Dot. Funny thing is, the 410 Red Dot load was within a half grain of the 38-40 data I use for my brass cased slug rounds. Makes me wonder what kind of pressure 7.0 gr of Red Dot under a 1/2 oz of shot, and a 1/2" of felt produces. It didn't even show the wad pressure. I thought that was a critical part of the recipe, with felt wads. I do love reading the old manuals, even though the data is sometimes crazy.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk1/2 ounce is right at 218.7 grains

[deadeye ruck]

I have an early Speer Manual that shows some loads that are more powder than you can get in the case and that is not leaving any room for a bullet.

Same here! When you compare the loads to other manuals the minimum load listed it the speer occasionally exceeds the maximum in other manuals. Yikes!

[jdfoxinc]

Everything changed with she formation of SSAMI and their lawyers.

[country gent]

The powders from that era in time may not be the same as todays are either, IE, 1960s Imr 4895 may not be quite the same as 2017 IMR 4895 is as to burning rate and density. Powders have changed gradually over the years sometimes from lot to lot number even. Starting low and working up has been a standard procedure for many years. Along with checking data from2 or 3 sources

[David2011]

Everything changed with she formation of SSAMI and their lawyers.

SAAMI was founded in 1926.

[HangFireW8]

QuickLoad shows that as a 114% loading density--as mentioned will fill the case with no room for bullet...

QL predicts 65335 psi--A bit stiff for the 30-30 Winchester!!!...
Not recommending anyone try it, but QL does not predict compressed overload pressures correctly. I still find it useful.

[BCB]

Not recommending anyone try it, but QL does not predict compressed overload pressures correctly. I still find it useful.

That may very well be the case as I have no way to prove or disprove that pressure that is predicted...

But, I do know one thing that is for sure, I will let you try that load first in one of they 30-30 Winchester firearms. That is, if you can even get that load put together...

Good-luck...BCB

[376Steyr]

Sort of on topic: For years, Hornady manuals listed a maximum load of 44 grains of IMR-4064 and a 150 gr bullet for 2800 fps in the 300 Savage. This load was about 10% heavier than any other manufacturer's. I see the latest manual finally dropped back a couple of grains. I never tried that load, it would probably work okay in a Remington 722, but would maybe a bit much for a Savage 99.

[HangFireW8]

That may very well be the case as I have no way to prove or disprove that pressure that is predicted...

But, I do know one thing that is for sure, I will let you try that load first in one of they 30-30 Winchester firearms. That is, if you can even get that load put together...

Good-luck...BCB
It's still an overload, as I mentioned, and I won't be trying it.

-HF

[KCSO]

Each LOT of powder varies so if you change lots of powder your should work up your load again. You can't expect even a 10 yer old manual to be more than an approximate. For serious work in BPC shooting we teat each lot of powder and re work the loads up to spec again. I have manuals back to the 1940's that my Father in Law used and still have loads for Lightning and Bulk Smokless.