Old things revisited

[David2011]

You won't find anything earth shattering here. It's just some musings of what I've always done combined with what I did when I had lots of time. While recovering from a recent knee replacement one of the few things I've been able to do is work in the reloading/casting room because almost all of it was designed to be used sitting from the beginning. It has also helped the knee due to pushing myself around in a rolling office chair, getting lots of knee bending exercise. Initially I could only spend maybe a half hour at a time but as I got stronger I could spend more time, opening up experimentation of things done my many thousands before me that I had never tried. I hope it's worth the time you spent reading it.

When I first started casting my mentor had several formulae that he used for specialty loads but also a universal mix for general purpose casting that worked over a broad range of cartridges. His mix was 20 pounds of clean COWW alloy and one pound of monotype. I still have a few boolits that we made together from the early '80s as keepsakes. They still look as they did the day they were cast, looking more like CNC machined aluminum than a cast boolit. It would work in any handgun with reliable results. I bought his casting stuff when he became unable to get out into the shop and among the items was his 5 gallon bucket of pristine monotype in individual letter form. It was about 135 pounds of casting gold. I stuck with Mac's formula but eventually tried cutting his 1 pound of monotype back to a half pound per 20 pounds of COWW. The boolits were still very nice and I was more comfortable with the longevity of that bucket of monotype.

Monotype is 10% tin, 16% antimony and 74% lead so it adds significant metal to the COWW in small amounts.

Wheelweight Reduction: Since so many don't like the word "smelting" and I know it's not a correct term, I'll call it reduction, as in a wine reduction sauce. Most of my early collections of COWW had enough tire lube, chaw, grease and oil on them that they were self cleaning and made great ingots using a cast iron pot and crawfish/turkey cooker. I read for years about fluxing while reducing but never found the need. More recently I've gotten a lot of much cleaner WW and tried sawdust as has been touted here for years as a great flux. It was an amazing experience. The steel clips cleaned up better and I could tell by the weight of what I was skimming off that it was much cleaner than past meltings. Very little dross was being skimmed and the metal in the pot looked great. The resulting ingots were very clean.

Poor results with a known alloy: I needed to cast some 50% COWW/50% Linotype .38s for a friend. He can't handle a mold any more so he brings me his metal and I make boolits for him. I think 50% lino is a waste for powder puff .38s but it's his metal so he gets what he wants. The lino is in print metal form and clean. His COWW are in cornbread muffin form. I've made boolits with this mix plenty of times in the past with good results but the last batch was awful. The boolits just weren't as smooth as usual. I dropped some beeswax on the melt and stirred it in. No improvement. Added some tin. No improvement. Finally opened the door for ventilation and tossed a golf ball sized clump of pine sawdust and let it toast and then stirred it in. Something was obviously happening in the pot. Crud was coming up and skimmed off. The corncob COWW obviously was not as clean as it initially appeared. After a couple of fluxings the boolits cast as expected. Sawdust saved the day.

Try new alloys: "Why not?," I thought. I like going back to original loads from time to time. I love to shoot my Blackhawk in .45 Colt and when I'm not hunting I have no need for those stout Ruger and Contender Only loads. I decided to cast some 20:1 lead to tin using an RCBS 45-250 RNFP mold. The alloy cast easily and from what I have read matched the original .45 Colt bullet. Some of them were loaded with 5.0 grains of of Trail Boss just for fun loads when I'm able to return to the range.

Although my standard COWW/Mono alloy will hold up in a .44 Mag I had cast some straight lino RCBS .44-250K (Keith type SWC) to test what I had read. They were loaded with a Ruger/Contender only load of 2400. That batch of about 125 boolits has lasted several years because I have found about 5 rounds to be my bench shooting comfort level but I have hunted with them. I've written bout this before. The loads should develop 1350 fps in a 7.5" revolver but in the Super 14 Contender barrel the velocity is 1600 fps so recoil is substantial. The lino boolits neither shattered nor expanded on feral hogs but "they will kill" with through penetration from any angle. I'm going to try some COWW/Lino mix boolits with a lighter load in the near future, looking for 1300-1400 fps.

.38 Plinking Loads This is another place where I've used my "standard alloy" for forever. As my stash of pure lead has gotten bigger I've looked for places to utilize it. I'm experimenting with 50/50 COWW/pure and 20:1 with these boolits using my tried and true awesome Saeco wadcutter mold and a Lee 358-158 RNFP.

Accumulated old stuff: Again, looking for things I cold do from a chair I rounded up all of the old, unmarked ammunition that had come in a mass purchase and neutralized it. This can be a tedious, time consuming process because there is such a variety of scrap and very little that is exactly repetitive since the calibers and types of projectiles will vary widely. Much of it came from my friend who was known to shoot hot loads. The rest was a mishmash of one of this and three of that that had collected at the back of the bench from years of reloading. I broke down the ammunition and salvaged the components I could. The nickeled brass split at the mouths an almost every piece so they all went to the scrap brass box after removing the primers. I deprimed using a Lee universal decapper and while I am gentle decapping live primers, I do not feel that it is excessively risky done on a single stage press. Safety glasses required! I know many others here do the same thing. I went through and rounded up every piece or loaded or primed brass and took appropriate action with them. The reloading room is in better shape than since it was built.

Y'all add your two cents, please. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon7.png

[OS OK]

A very nice article here David and was a pleasure to read.
I'm with you on the sawdust, just not in the pot I pour from. My tablesaw keeps me in plenty of that stuff. I try to make the lino and Lyman No. 2 go as far as it can when adding to pure Pb and very little goes a long ways.
Since reading E. Keith's writings I have backed way off the 'acceptable hardness' values we consider a must today. It is amazing how soft you can shoot PC'd casts in pistols and revolvers when you stay clear of the wrist breaking .45 Colts that only work in the Ruger variety...I'm feeding a Colt SAA and I call them the wimpy rounds but they are substantial at 850 & 800 FPS and 200 to 255 grains. I'm sure they'd drop a hog easily.
I mostly like to experiment with loads like HP's, the old variety of Ideal designed by Keith...you have to get the aloy right to get them to operate at low velocities...that's where the learning curve starts for me.

I really enjoyed your post...charlie

[BrutalAB]

Good read.
How did you know which kind of primers were used in his loads (magnum or standard) it sounds like a safe bet he used magnum primers. This being the only thing I ever hear anyone concerned about in regards to primers.

[bbogue1]

I, too, have had cleaner lead when fluxing with sawdust. Mr. Frexyl, in his book "Ingot to Target" tells why the carbon in toasted sawdust chemically reacts with the impurities to give a cleaner lead.

I melt my wheel weights in a separate stainless steel pan, skim off the dross and make ingots. In my bottom pour pot I only put clean alloy from ingots then add tin (I have found the calculators available here on Cast Boolits to be very helpful, although, I like your idea of a simple mix for plinking).

[David2011]

Brutal, I looked at the powder and weighed it, just for a wild guess as to what the primers might be. The boolits were gas checked and the cartridges had 8.0 grains of what appeared to be Unique. That's either an incorrect ID or above anything in my books for Unique, .357 and 158-160 grain boolits. I was NOT and never will try to identify powder for re-use by looking at it; just trying to identify the primers. Based on knowing the loader and his penchant for hot loads I'll assume they're small pistol magnum primers. I'll also use them with cat sneeze loads of a fast powder like 2.7 gr of Bullseye where it won't matter if they're standard or magnum.

Bbogue, you're on the right path. Do it yourself and do it right. Every time I try to use ingots someone gives me they end up being less than completely clean. I have to re-flux all of the ingots from my friend.

[BrutalAB]

Rats,was hoping you would have some magic way to tell them apart. I can identify my own but I have a pretty small variety of brands and date of manufacture. I would assume time would lead to changes of appearance within a brand and type.

[robg]

Good read I'm going to give sawdust a try next time I'm casting.

[David2011]

Rats,was hoping you would have some magic way to tell them apart. I can identify my own but I have a pretty small variety of brands and date of manufacture. I would assume time would lead to changes of appearance within a brand and type.

If you have known primers for comparison you might be able to tell by the color of the foil under the anvil that covers the actual priming compound. Most manufacturers use different colors of foil to designate standard and magnum. Large rifle primers are taller than large pistol, .123" for rifle and .115" for pistol but small rifle and pistol are the same size. From what I've seen changes are not frequent. If I ran across loose unidentified primers (and I have, in a paper lunch sack) I would not attempt to use them.

[David2011]

Good read I'm going to give sawdust a try next time I'm casting.

Please do, Rob. It's like a miracle drug for lead alloys.

[JohnH]

You won't find anything earth shattering here. It's just some musings of what I've always done combined with what I did when I had lots of time. While recovering from a recent knee replacement one of the few things I've been able to do is work in the reloading/casting room because almost all of it was designed to be used sitting from the beginning. It has also helped the knee due to pushing myself around in a rolling office chair, getting lots of knee bending exercise. Initially I could only spend maybe a half hour at a time but as I got stronger I could spend more time, opening up experimentation of things done my many thousands before me that I had never tried. I hope it's worth the time you spent reading it.

When I first started casting my mentor had several formulae that he used for specialty loads but also a universal mix for general purpose casting that worked over a broad range of cartridges. His mix was 20 pounds of clean COWW alloy and one pound of monotype. I still have a few boolits that we made together from the early '80s as keepsakes. They still look as they did the day they were cast, looking more like CNC machined aluminum than a cast boolit. It would work in any handgun with reliable results. I bought his casting stuff when he became unable to get out into the shop and among the items was his 5 gallon bucket of pristine monotype in individual letter form. It was about 135 pounds of casting gold. I stuck with Mac's formula but eventually tried cutting his 1 pound of monotype back to a half pound per 20 pounds of COWW. The boolits were still very nice and I was more comfortable with the longevity of that bucket of monotype.

Monotype is 10% tin, 16% antimony and 74% lead so it adds significant metal to the COWW in small amounts.

Wheelweight Reduction: Since so many don't like the word "smelting" and I know it's not a correct term, I'll call it reduction, as in a wine reduction sauce. Most of my early collections of COWW had enough tire lube, chaw, grease and oil on them that they were self cleaning and made great ingots using a cast iron pot and crawfish/turkey cooker. I read for years about fluxing while reducing but never found the need. More recently I've gotten a lot of much cleaner WW and tried sawdust as has been touted here for years as a great flux. It was an amazing experience. The steel clips cleaned up better and I could tell by the weight of what I was skimming off that it was much cleaner than past meltings. Very little dross was being skimmed and the metal in the pot looked great. The resulting ingots were very clean.

Poor results with a known alloy: I needed to cast some 50% COWW/50% Linotype .38s for a friend. He can't handle a mold any more so he brings me his metal and I make boolits for him. I think 50% lino is a waste for powder puff .38s but it's his metal so he gets what he wants. The lino is in print metal form and clean. His COWW are in cornbread muffin form. I've made boolits with this mix plenty of times in the past with good results but the last batch was awful. The boolits just weren't as smooth as usual. I dropped some beeswax on the melt and stirred it in. No improvement. Added some tin. No improvement. Finally opened the door for ventilation and tossed a golf ball sized clump of pine sawdust and let it toast and then stirred it in. Something was obviously happening in the pot. Crud was coming up and skimmed off. The corncob COWW obviously was not as clean as it initially appeared. After a couple of fluxings the boolits cast as expected. Sawdust saved the day.

Try new alloys: "Why not?," I thought. I like going back to original loads from time to time. I love to shoot my Blackhawk in .45 Colt and when I'm not hunting I have no need for those stout Ruger and Contender Only loads. I decided to cast some 20:1 lead to tin using an RCBS 45-250 RNFP mold. The alloy cast easily and from what I have read matched the original .45 Colt bullet. Some of them were loaded with 5.0 grains of of Trail Boss just for fun loads when I'm able to return to the range.

Although my standard COWW/Mono alloy will hold up in a .44 Mag I had cast some straight lino RCBS .44-250K (Keith type SWC) to test what I had read. They were loaded with a Ruger/Contender only load of 2400. That batch of about 125 boolits has lasted several years because I have found about 5 rounds to be my bench shooting comfort level but I have hunted with them. I've written bout this before. The loads should develop 1350 fps in a 7.5" revolver but in the Super 14 Contender barrel the velocity is 1600 fps so recoil is substantial. The lino boolits neither shattered nor expanded on feral hogs but "they will kill" with through penetration from any angle. I'm going to try some COWW/Lino mix boolits with a lighter load in the near future, looking for 1300-1400 fps.

.38 Plinking Loads This is another place where I've used my "standard alloy" for forever. As my stash of pure lead has gotten bigger I've looked for places to utilize it. I'm experimenting with 50/50 COWW/pure and 20:1 with these boolits using my tried and true awesome Saeco wadcutter mold and a Lee 358-158 RNFP.

Accumulated old stuff: Again, looking for things I cold do from a chair I rounded up all of the old, unmarked ammunition that had come in a mass purchase and neutralized it. This can be a tedious, time consuming process because there is such a variety of scrap and very little that is exactly repetitive since the calibers and types of projectiles will vary widely. Much of it came from my friend who was known to shoot hot loads. The rest was a mishmash of one of this and three of that that had collected at the back of the bench from years of reloading. I broke down the ammunition and salvaged the components I could. The nickeled brass split at the mouths an almost every piece so they all went to the scrap brass box after removing the primers. I deprimed using a Lee universal decapper and while I am gentle decapping live primers, I do not feel that it is excessively risky done on a single stage press. Safety glasses required! I know many others here do the same thing. I went through and rounded up every piece or loaded or primed brass and took appropriate action with them. The reloading room is in better shape than since it was built.

Y'all add your two cents, please. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon7.png

When I first began casting, linotype was the metal being pushed for all purpose shooting in the gun rags. (we didn't have the 'net back then Al Gore was still a politician not an inventor ;) ) I was having a devil of a time with accuracy and leading in an S&W Model 10 HB. The older fellas around the gun range told me my boolits were too hard and I needed to use something softer, even pure lead would be preferable to linotype for my purpose. Being unteachable in those days, I ignored this as I thought surely the guys getting paid for writing articles in the gun rags knew more than anybody. (yeah my learning curve was going straight up) A few years later I found myself with nothing but COWW on hand (and this was the old stuff which was still too hard by the standards I know now) and naturally used it. Imagine my surprise when those problems went away. (Of course I had become a better shooter by then too) A good lube and plain lead at 38 Special velocities and pressures simply will not lead in a good barrel. These days I use straight COWW for all my shootzen I've found it performs quite well from 700 to 1600 fps without fuss or muss and FWFL or 45-45-10 will get you there without trouble. I'm pretty much of the belief that alloy, other than being too hard, is rarely the source of our problems

[TexasGrunt]

I use 50/50 COWW/Pure for all my handgun shooting. Haven't had a problem at all.

[lightman]

An interesting read, David. I still use the word "smelting" for turning wheelweights and other lead into ingots. My "smelting" pot will hold close to 400# of lead and I use sawdust in it, every since I read about it on here. I've used different kinds but pine seems to work best. I use candles or beeswax in my casting pot. I have quite a bit of linotype, monotype and foundry type but I hardly ever use anything other than straight clip-on wheelweights. But that lino sure makes purty boolits!
I don't salvage much from pulled down ammo except the brass. I save the powder in a jar until its full and usually dump it in the flower bed and the bullets go into my next batch of lead. I just dump the primers in the trash can.
I know you are doing some of this while you are recovering from knee surgery (hope you continue to improve) but this is the kind of stuff that I do in the winter after hunting season closes and its too nasty to get out. I call it cabin fever!

[Digital Dan]

Smelting my thoughts on David's post: Agree, pretty much across the board.

In the background I do more work with free form wood craft than most and have an abundant supply of softwood dust/chips. I read the teachings of Lord Fryxell, took them to heart and it's been a mostly uneventful path to success with bullet casting. I still ponder the point that each of my too many moulds have their own personalities and are subject to pouting upon change of alloy/temp/phase of moon.

I blend alloys for my own purposes, primarily based on BHN. I bend the rules too. "Conventional Wisdom" tells me I can't do this or that...so far I have with little repercussion. My reference for BHN revolves around the Lyman #2 alloy and the adventure led to alloy ratios which I refer to a Dan's #1.25, 1.5 and 1.75 alloy. They scale 8, 10 and 12 BHN on hardness. The1.25 is superfluous in that is basically mimics 30:1 alloy which I use for a variety of BP and smokeless loads. 1.5 and 1.75 are useful in a broad range of applications.

That said, I am a law breaker. I have read that one can only go so fast or rise to certain heights on the pressure scale before things go sideways. Too, I am cautioned that Alox tumble lube only works to a point then one must join the masses and comply. Horsefeathers. My world, experience and guns, not your own of course, but I have not been curbed by conventional wisdom.

I do not own a lubrisizer, but instead pan lube when prepping for BP loads, or the occasional smokeless load as deemed appropriate. Otherwise I exercise my Lee push through sizers. I began using Alox before understanding the finer points and quickly mended my evil ways. I do NOT tumble lube, but rather, dip lube with my fingers or for small caliber bullets, use of an appropriate sized rubber tube over the bullet nose and small dowel/straw or something to nudge the bullet out onto wax paper for drying. I have, to date, driven bullets so lubed and properly sized to velocity in excess of 2300 fps (#2 alloy) with 2 MOA precision at 100 yards with 30 shots. A recent group with a .30-30/311041 at 50 yards with a Savage 24 went into 1/2" for 3 using leaf sights, bag rest and 2150 fps.

I am at present attempting to ascertain whether or not my dusting of Alox lubed bullets with graphite benefits the process or is unnecessary. Doing so in concert with motor mica was my first and successful excursion in dealing with gummed up seating dies. I can tell you w/o qualification that it does not interfere with precision.

http://i.imgur.com/sXOvzlK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yo8Zf6g.jpg?1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Ravage%20Surreal%202_zpsksmlwhv0.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/Ravage%20Surreal%202_zpsksmlwhv0.jpg.html)

[Digital Dan]

David2011 got in touch via PM and inquired about expanding discussion on my ventures and I will do so. It will include a few pictures and a bit of ramble.

I started reloading circa 1973 for a RSB and rather enjoyed the process. It was the first gun I owned that utilized CF ignition and shot bullets. A slow methodical evolution began and due to limited funds it was not until 1984 that the first CF rifle came into my possession, a Winchester 94, in .30-30 of course. I had been hunting with friends in the Everglades and learned that a pistol just couldn't kill a deer, no matter what anyone said. In retrospect, I do not object to their influence else I'd not have wound up where I am today.

Many dead critters and more than a few years later I wound up doing something on a lark. Ruger had just introduced the 77/44 and I figured that since I still had the dies it would make for a good and complimentary addition to my arsenal. And I still had blank spaces in the gun rack.

Up to that time I had wound up with a number of styles of rifles from single shots to bolts and with the new -kaff- SS rifle in possession I had also ordered a book by Paul Matthews, "The Paper Jacket". You see, in all my pursuits chasing the accuracy ant I had tried commercial cast bullets and as a result had little respect for that angle. In my many different attempts I'd not found any that provided anywhere near what I required insofar as precision went. I was a neck turning, concentricity gauge abusing, mad dog rabid accuracy nut. I did not care what the platform, it was going to shoot well or go down the block. In broad terms I was successful, finding that with exception of the Win 94 all were capable of the mystical 1" group @ 100 yards...if I did my part.

So, long story short, I determined to shoot the paper patch and see where it went. I was not bashful and I was lucky. I conferred with Montana Precision Swaging and after some dialog they agreed to develop a new bullet for me and that was to be a .422" diameter, 300 grain swaged bullet of pure lead, flat base and 1/4" meplate with about a 1.5 radius ogive. They wanted to use lead that had some tin in it, I don't recall how much, but I resisted valiantly. The order arrived a few months later, to include a supply of flat base and cupped base pure lead bullets.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg.html)

Patched with 9# onionskin the finished bullets mic'd at .430" diameter and after the patch dried they were finger lubed with 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline.

The cupped base bullets were OK up to around 1250 fps then started to blow skirts. I was younger and far more focused....got rid of the twisted tail on the flat base, added a card wad of .030" thickness and stuffed the case full of Li'l Gun. I have been blessed many times by the result of all this in the form of wee groups and table fare. The image below is fairly representative of what I expect from that gun/load combination and I ask that you note the date fired vs date loaded info on the target. I use a Millet SP-1 red dot sight w/3MOA dot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

I zeroed the load on the next target and went to Mississippi a few days later for a deer hunt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/PaperPatchDeer009_zps3a52d58c.jpg.html)

I did not appreciate it that the old gal made a single leap after the shot and piled up in the largest blackberry patch I've ever seen. The bullet broke the right foreleg, 2 ribs on the way in, cut the heart in half, 3 ribs on the way out, the offside foreleg and came to rest under the hide. She weighed 173# on the hoof.

My conclusions? Yeah, paper patch works, and works well. Too well perhaps. It is what led me to fiddle with cast lead. Observation has been made here in various threads that paper patch and grease groove rules are different and that is very much true with few exceptions. The one thing where the process is common is the requirement for compatible dimensions between bullet and leade/throat. My patch and groove diameter are the same, .430". I don't know there is much else in common between the pursuits. I found that using a 1/8" overhang on the bullet base, folded over while wet eliminated the errant fliers experienced in the course of load development. I found the card wad pulled group size down from about 2" @100 yard to MOA'ish on a consistent basis. My records show the smallest group of 3 at that range to be .485". Chronographed MV with 18 grains of Li'l Gun averages 1585 fps. It is a max load and presumably generates around 36 KPSI pressure. Since embracing the idea and with the passing of years, Hodgdon has reduced their max load for a 300 grain bullet to 17.0 grains, or so the most recent data in my possession states. I've experienced no excursions of pressure to indicate 18 is inappropriate and still use the brass purchased near 20 years ago. Until recently I did not target shoot with the gun, but used it to hunt, period. I had a load, end of discussion. I have killed a number of deer and hogs with it, none took a second step. The bullet pictured above is representative of performance on a consistent basis.

I fiddled with three different bullet styles with this project, 4 powders and 3 different configurations of patch/wad etc to get to where I am today. There is no experimenting left to be done for me. Boring rifle, boring load, dead nutz accurate and deadly, right here, right now. I caution the load and gun are not compatible with neophyte shooters. The recoil is sharp and not the least bashful. I love it anyway.

Was deer hunting a few years back, pausing from the normal still hunt routine and watching a trail, back against a tree. An armadillo approached, and by odd fluke seemed intent upon humping my boot. I'm just not that kind of fella, and the thing that shocked me most was the way he absolutely vanished into a mist of red and small bits of shell when he tried to catch the bullet in his teeth.

So, with that said I have the following advice:

Mind your dims.
Do it right if you have high expectations.
Don't be afraid to experiment a bit.
Taper crimp is your friend.
Mind your dims.

If you're interested in the telling, I'll review affairs related to other guns and other successes, and probably a couple of failures to illustrate the true and righteous path. Lemme know...

Semper Swamp,

Dan

[David2011]

Excellent read, Dan. Thank you. Yes, please continue to tell of other successes. You're a wealth of information and write in a manner that's easy to understand. That you're shooting as accurately with a lever gun as most new bolt action rifles is pretty remarkable.

Looking forward to more!
David

[Digital Dan]

Well, OK then!

Somewhere along the path of life I misplaced the instruction manual which decrees orderly progress and transition to higher planes of existence. I admit to being influenced by a pack of rascals nested quietly in a shooting niche few are aware of, and they shoot archaic creations borne in the 1800s. They use black powder and a lot of lead. Their pursuit was choreographed by the likes of H.V. Perry, Billinghurst and the National Rifle Club. There is some information available at the following web site, but the record is still being assembled. http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary

Had occasion some years ago to start consorting with these galoots and one day I had the brass to suggest that lead bullets did not play second fiddle to jacketed creations insofar as precision went, and only because they are pragmatic and I'm prone to ricochets I was laughed out of the bar that night. I stick to my beliefs despite the laughter. I will not claim it is easy to equal the quality of modern production bullets, but the physics suggest clearly that "if all else is equal...". Quality control is a different beast entirely.

Returning to the NRC and like pursuits, the general overview is these fellas were shooting off a bench with large bore guns, generally at targets on the 40 rod butt. Translated, that is 220 yards and "butt" was the old vernacular for where you were sitting when you jerked the trigger. Matches ranged from 10 to 30 rounds and they used string measure in evaluating the groups. String Measure = the aggregate of measure from point of aim to point of impact. It is a measure of both accuracy and precision. The standing record for that class of gun on the 40 rod butt and 20 shots is something in the 6" range and was shot in the very late 1800's.

They were muzzle loading guns, generally of large bore and used optical scopes before it was widely popular. The bullets were paper patched by cross strips or the Chase patch method. The bullets were cast of lead, generally pure lead, then formed in a hammer swage for use.

A few pics follow to illustrate the craft and hardware:

The business end of a .50 caliber scoped rifle by David Hall Hilliard of Cornish, NH, circa 1870-1880. The scope is functional with crosswire reticle, twist is 1:16". The tools represented in the image include the false muzzle, bullet starter, and monkey fist. The latter is the brass disc which is used on windy days to keep the cross strips in place while loading and is remarkably efficient. In the background not fully in frame is the strip cutter (yes, use a hammer) and collection of strips. The gun is a transition piece between the era of picket rifles and slug guns.

http://i.imgur.com/Yz9p7uy.jpg

A brass mould for casting the "slug".

http://i.imgur.com/Xx6lbbD.jpg

Newer production hammer swage tools for two styles of bullets, one illustrated in the picture. It finishes at 490 grains. Get a bigger hammer. On the left is a foot rest which mounts about 6" behind the muzzle and perches on a metal plate for shooting. These guns were about precision, nothing more or less.

http://i.imgur.com/xHT3TMD.jpg

Finally, the operator's end of the affair:

http://i.imgur.com/akixnav.jpg

I will return later today to finish discussion on this segment of my journey and toss in a few photos that will likely amaze if you are one of those who have never heard of this piece of our history.

Dan

[Wayne Smith]

The Caplock Muzzleloading Rifle by Ned Roberts has a good chapter or two on this process, too.

[Digital Dan]

Yes indeed and it is an excellent book.

The world of shooting competition began to jell in the few decades prior to the Civil War. Information I've read has it that one of the first forms and common uses of conical bullets started in the 1840s with what were called Picket Rifles. They used a bullet that in cross section form resembled a guitar pick and were cloth patched.

196174

In the image below, a 1876 vintage example by Peter Reinhard presents in the foreground and a H.V. Perry .56 caliber slug gun is in the background.

http://i.imgur.com/KFdm2bP.jpg

In the course of affairs in that era there was much experimenting underway and much of it found success. The following image represents an evolution of bullet design and some of it might surprise.

http://i.imgur.com/olGTJwJ.jpg

L-R:

.25 ACP
.462" flat base picket two piece
.530" Nelson Lewis belted picket
.545" Nelson Lewis double belted picket
.532" picket
.510"/.495" two piece of 850 grains
.555" "plinking bullet" for the HV Perry gun above. The competition bullet for that rifle is two piece swaged and 1,300 grains.

The Hilliard rifle above took second place on the 100 yard line at a NRC match in Cody, WY in June of 2011 against a dozen competitors and 15G25 full value wind L-R.

[Digital Dan]

In general terms you have a view of the last 20 years of shooting pursuit in my life. There are a couple of items that flesh out the package and perhaps provide insight to my self imposed standards.

My personal background includes 2.5 years in Vietnam and extension of the aviation career that included 3 years as a corporate pilot and a bit shy of 25 years as an FAA air traffic controller at Miami and Jacksonville Enroute Air Traffic Control Centers. That background instills a certain focus on success, meaning that everyone survived w/o significant injury on a day to day basis. Planning is integral to success in both endeavors. Likewise, planning in the world of shooting will lead to success if one is diligent.

Oddball guns aside, I do have a few "normal" guns. Previously mentioned is the 94 Winchester and Savage 24. Also in the locker is a T/C Contender with 3 barrels. .22 Short, .30-30 and .30 Sneezer, a perfectly odd and at this time, unique cartridge in the sense of application. I have a Marlin 94 that is close to 100 years old, originally chamber for the .25-20 Marlin. The bore was a mess and I had it relined/chambered into .25-20 Win. This is the gun that got me started on casting conventional style bullets about 10 years ago. That said, here's the short version of evolution, where I did my homework and why.

Retired in 2003 and moved to Yankeetown, FL. a coastal community about 100 miles north of Tampa. It is rural and nested between a large tract of cypress swamp/pine forest known as Gulf Hammock and the Withlacoochee River. It became apparent almost immediately that my neighbors were rude, obnoxious, disrespectful and otherwise unwelcome at my home.

http://i.imgur.com/dJT42YJ.jpg

The first one I shot was at a measured 38 yards with the pictured rig and CCI CB shorts. I did not expect it to fall over dead on the spot, but it did so. The little porker was about 40# and the bullet penetrated its neck fully, severing the spinal cord along the way. The experience sharpened my focus on placement.

The process continued for several years and the body count grew. It came to pass that the manager of a state owned preserve on the other side of the street and I met one day, talked about the hog problem and next thing I knew I was an official volunteer hog whacker with instructions to kill 'em all. Oh, I had to use .22 rimfires due to surrounding residential properties and well, you know how old folks like to quibble about petty stuff, right? Noise footprint was an issue, take it or leave it. I ran with it.

Long story short, pigs died in large numbers over the years that followed. They were not all small.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2958_zps7c69f49a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2958_zps7c69f49a.jpg.html)

Doing this with any success requires the discipline to take the good shot and walk away from the bad ones. Unless of course you like to climb trees with alacrity.

The "Turf".....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN1956_zpsc82cdd08.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN1956_zpsc82cdd08.jpg.html)

So I got into casting for the .25-20 and other cartridges as well. At present I shoot both smokeless and BP in the field and do a bit of "research" at the range. Cartridges I cast for include the following: .22 K-Hornet, .25-20 Win, .25-20 SS, 7x57, .30-30, .30 Sneezer, .38 Spcl, .38-55, .40 slug gun, .40-38-55 ML cartridge gun, .44 mag and .45-70. I do so for very specific applications and I think that drives the buggy down certain paths. With exception of the K-Hornet and 7x57 and .30-30 I use softer alloys, 30:1 being one of my more reliable blends. I have not used an alloy harder than Lyman #2 and likely will not....ever. Being of a mind that all things have their place and purpose, I do not see the need for such things. After all, I do have a few jacketed bullets on hand if compelled to take heroic action I can load them up or shoot what is on hand. Making cast bullets perform at the extreme ends of the envelope is problematic, both for precision and terminal performance. If a fella keeps an open mind, crosses the T's and dots the I's, a more pedestrian realm of performance will reward far beyond the expectations of most shooters.

-You want to be a good offhand shot? You need either a lot of trigger time or...a flintlock. There is nothing in the world of offhand shooting that will help you more than the leisurely lock time of a flinter.

-You want to build cast bullet loads that are stupid accurate? Pay attention to the advice to be had here with emphasis on the "stickies". Take the time to look at the technical data and dialog on this site as well: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

-Listen to those more learned on the topic and have the courage to admit YOU may not know everything. Billy Dixon illustrated that the long shot was doable at Adobe Walls many years ago, it isn't a new innovation of modern tech.

-Do your homework. That starts with nailing down the dims of your gun barrel and configuration of the chamber/leade etc. Those things will tell you what path to follow.

-Don't be afraid to spend a little extra, it's a lot cheaper in the long run. The Sneezer project involved my limited imagination, Dave Manson ( https://mansonreamers.com/ ), Bullberry, Steve Brooks ( http://brooksmoulds.com/index.html ) and Hornady's Ben Syring (custom dies). It worked pretty much right out of the box because the design was integrated across the board on dims, dies and mould.

-Don't be afraid to experiment. The Sneezer project has involved 12 powders, 2 bullets, 4 alloys, 2 brands and 2 styles of primers. I have at this point, 5 different loads which are far more than adequate to whack a pig. Do NOT change more than one element at a time while developing loads. The aforementioned components as example, seating depth, neck tension and crimp, etc. One step at a time, else your data will be corrupted by multiple variables and of little use. You may have good groups, but you really won't know why. You more likely will have unsatisfactory groups....and not know why.

Case in point: The targets I previously posted in this thread include one from the 77/44 and a 320 grain RNFB bullet fueled by 12.5 grains of 2400. I used a card wad on that one, just like the others and had somewhat larger groups with each of 4 additional strings. Not bad, not great. I pulled the card wad and started cutting one hole groups with multiple loads. So simple even a caveman can do it?

Case #2: Fiddle with this and fiddle with that and one day you ask yourself, "Why didn't I try that?" Out comes the Blue Dot, load up the Sneezer and .44, trot up to the range and find yourself smiling. The world of reduced velocity/subsonic loads is fraught with low load densities in most cartridges. It causes erratic velocities with many combinations, and with others not so much. Many think the velocity excursions which result from such things are of little importance at close range and so far as drop is concerned they are correct. What is important is the effect it has on barrel harmonics or vibrations if you prefer. A suppressor will magnify those effects due to its increased mass addition to the barrel.

Best to you and hope you find harmony with the endeavor,

Dan

PS: You can now tell your friends you know a guy that has loaded and shot black powder and cast lead thru a suppressor. It shoots quite well thank you. And I can clean the can in the dishwasher.

[Digital Dan]

Having been hanging around here for a spell, a couple of suggestions directed at those on the steep up slope of the learning curve as relates to loading technique.

Powders: Priority #1 is to use published load data whenever it is available. I recognize that it isn't for a lot of cast bullet loads, but you can segway off of data for jacketed bullets if necessary and appropriate. Be cautious.

Smokeless powders tend to burn dirty when used with light loads that generate low pressure. At the charge increases that trait will fade away. Low load density contributes to that and erratic velocities with many but not all powders. Load density is a measure of the amount of space in a loaded case that is filled with powder. In a perfect world you might have 85-100% load density, but cast bullet shooting in modern design cases is far from a perfect world. By modern I mean bottle neck cases in the main, though there are a few exceptions from days of yore such as the .25-20, .32-20 and so forth. In any case, and assuming everything else is proper, work your loads up in small increments until you find something akin to your goal(s) and then begin to massage it. Referring to the 3 bull target posted earlier, you may note the ES numbers correlate directly with published burn rates, Red Dot (fastest) having the smallest and 2400 (slowest) the largest. Were I to increase the 2400 charge that number would shrink considerably.

Primers: They are variable by brand and style, and from lot to lot. I suggest that if you find one that suits, stock up. A recent example of mine came from the Sneezer project wherein Winchester SRP and SPP were inconsistent and the CCI 500 turned out to be a jewel. The picture posted earlier of three bulls, the lower center being a small ragged hole, were all shot with the CCI primer. The same loads with WW primers have generally posted groups in the 1-1.5" range with all else equal.

Case prep: I would guess that meticulous case preparation is something that grows on a handloader over the years. It makes a difference, but is not something commonly passed on thru the manuals in great detail. Back in my youth I was pretty much in the "get'r done" mode. Size/decap....charge and seat...crimp if required and boom. Today is a different world for me because I've seen the benefit of taking one step at a time and have substantial allegiance to cause and effect, dimensions and other minutiae.

My routine:
1. Decap
2. clean
3. lube and size w/o the expander plug/ball (bottle neck cases)
4. Install expander and apply on the up stroke of the ram.
5. Seat bullet
6. crimp as necessary

The steps are slightly different with a 3 die set, but the methodology is pretty much the same....one step at a time.

Using a neck expander when the ram is in the down stroke causes the case to be only partially supported by the shell holder and can contribute to neck concentricity problems, or run out as the engineers might say. For those using a 3 die set, this is not an issue and generally I have found run out to be a non-issue with straight wall cases and that die configuration.

One of the significant issues that must be addressed if one is intent on precision with cast bullets is neck tension. Those thinking that a crimp is a proper substitute are mistaken. Those that insist on jamming three pounds of sugar in a 2# bag are not helping themselves either. My experience with smokeless loads is that a bullet diameter of .001" over groove is adequate to prevent blow by IF the alloy is proper for the pressures generated. I do not EVER load cast bullets with more than .002" neck tension and very much prefer .001". If the geometry of bore/bullet/case prevents that, I make adjustments as required. My reference for proper alloy is found on the LASC website in the windows that stipulate the max pressure for a given alloy as balanced against the minimum pressure required to obturate the bullet (BHN x 1422). I do not believe in magic.

I do believe in annealing the brass after two reloading cycles. It is one of the easiest ways I know to avoid work hardening in the case AND manage neck tension. Brass hardens with each cycle in the loading process and if not annealed you will eventually wind up with zero neck tension. It is a certain path to failure IF precision is your objective.

Case selection: Pretty much 10 times out of 10, if I have a choice I will opt for a straigtwall cartridge for shooting cast bullets. Alternatively, a long neck will get the job done as well. Examples? .25-20 Win., .30-30, etc.... I'm not saying you can't find success otherwise, and am saying I'm a lazy pig and that's the way I roll.

That is all,

Dan

[David2011]

Dan,

This is great information. I have heard people talking about very light loads in the 7.62x39 and 8MM Mauser in surplus rifles to the point that they were very quiet. Please, more on developing very light rifle loads. Thanks!

David

[Digital Dan]

David, I have no experience with the 8mm Mauser but would suggest in the most general terms that reduced loads in that cartridge would follow the same path as the .308 Win. If looking for the very lowest sound signature I would consider a pinch of Bullseye and a .310" buckshot. Little bit of grease on the ball wont hurt.

I have vast experience shooting arms chambered for the 7.62x39, such as the AK47, RPD and SKS. My approach was varied. Sometimes I shot them with a minigun, now and then with 2.75" FFARs and if feeling especially grumpy a section or two of TAC fighters. Napalm and cluster bombs were very effective. No lube required.

Sorry, could not resist.....

In truth, I haven't jerked the trigger on any gun chambered for that cartridge.

[castalott]

Dan... A wonderful post! Well written and full of information. More Please! Dale

[Digital Dan]

Should add that my suggestion for the .310 round ball implies that it be paper patched due to the larger bore of the 8mm.

I know, that's cruel and unusual.

[David2011]

Since the pressures are very low I assumed that the process for developing Sneeze level loads would be about the same for all medium sized cases. Is that not correct? I'm thinking of a full cast boolit at minimal velocities. I've loaded powder puff .38 Specials for a few decades and have a 1911 in .45 ACP that functions 100% with 200 grain boolits at 645-650 fps but that represents a lot of work on the gun. The action is glass smooth and goes as far as re-radiusing and polishing the firing pin stop. It took a lot of trial and error with recoil springs, too. Keeping it clean is different from normal loads, too. Since the pressure is too low to seal the brass to the chamber there's a tendency for carbon to build up in the chamber. I've never had that problem in my STI running USPSA Major loads in .40 S&W. The light .45 loads are a ton of fun but it's a more maintenance intensive combination because of the carbon buildup and low recoil impulse. If it gets very dirty the slide doesn't run smoothly either.

[Digital Dan]

David, in general terms I would agree with your assessment. Stray thoughts for whatever they may be worth.

Dunno what platform you're working with for either cartridge, but if you are considering low vel. loads for a Soviet design auto, best of luck.

Thinking that twist rate is important and can pass along that the .300 AAC (twisted 1:8") will work at subsonic velocity with a BHN in the range of 10. I'd not try to use a harder alloy as it would likely lead to gas cutting on the bullet. Use as heavy a bullet as available, it helps boost pressure and gives a cleaner burn and better obturation. This is said not knowing what overall length you'll be loading, you'll have to be the judge of that.

Take a look at shotgun powders, such as Red/Green/Blue Dot. They are bulky, burn clean and seem to work well in both the Sneezer and .44 Mag. 2400 and 4759 will work also, but burns like trash until the pressure starts to move up a bit. I suggest staying away from 800X, it's a bit squirrely for this exercise.

If you don't have a chronograph, get one. It is a most useful tool for evaluating what's happening in the case.

If you have Quick Load it simplifies affairs greatly. It gave direction for the Sneezer and simplified load development a great deal.

[David2011]

Of the rifles I have I would only be interested in light loads in the Yugoslavian Mauser in its original 8mm chambering. I have no interest in tinkering with the SKSs; they're only there to dispense 7.62x39 in a worst case scenario. I've never cast for a rifle and the light loads are intriguing. I've shot a few boxes of Super Colibri .22LR. From a rifle I only hear the firing pin and the bullet impact. I don't expect that level of quiet but if I could shoot accurately at 50 yards with no more report than an air rifle I would consider it a success. Still waiting and hoping for the Hearing Protection Act. Shotgun propellants sound like a good place to start. I only have one .30 caliber rifle, a Garand. I know it will shoot cast but I prefer to shoot jacketed in it. All I would need to try 8mm loads is brass, a mold and a few more hours in the day. The Yugo's bore is very nice and I have dies on hand.

[Digital Dan]

OK then, a few things to consider. Largish case volume and desire to shoot quiet out to 50 yards? No problem (he chuckles softly in the background).

My frame of reference for the Sneezer has been subsonic with a suppressor. This deletes the sonic crack, the other does the muzzle blast report. W/O a suppressor at play your primary source of muzzle blast is the exit pressure, or what is vented from the barrel when the bullet leaves Dodge City. Hundreds of pounds/square inch is quiet, thousands suggest a supersonic gas jet which makes its own crack. I mentioned heavier bullets earlier? Works for me, may not be in your best interest in the short term. In the process of initial review with Quick Load the program opined exit pressures for select loads as low as 600 PSI and as high as several thousands for others. Framed by the powders I had available, the range was from 730 to 3230 psi with the lower numbers represented by shotgun powders as previously referenced. Keep in mind this was calculated with a 180 grain bullet and 19" barrel, your mileage may vary. The highest pressure came from IMR4198 and 2400 was in the mid range.

Given your objectives I'd try the 2400 and likely use some dacron fiber to minimize the issue of position sensitivity. Lacking success, try one of the Dots or equivalent. BHN in the range of 7-8 is sufficient for what you pursue. No crimp, minimum neck tension and if the gun allows for it, seat the bullet to contact the lands...just a kiss.

Best of luck on all!

[OS OK]

An awesome read here Dan...I can't wait to hear about the Yugo and 8mm...not so much in the low pressure but heavies in the 1,800 to 2,000 FPS range if that's in your designs...

thanks . . . charlie