Hollow Points, Wadcutters, and Round nose, OH MY!

[sniper]

It seems we have come full circle, or, as one of the Utah Jazz basketball team once remarked, "We'll just do a 360, and get out of here!"

First, there were the round-nose boolits, which were relatively low-velocity, and called "widow-makers" by lawmen who carried them, even when "high velocity" loads were introduced. These were sometimes replaced by full wadcutter target ammunition, at about the same velocity, which were said to be more effective. They were replaced by hollow-point semiwadcutter ammo, that was said (with some justification) to be more effective and accurate at longer ranges. In the '40s, my Uncle, as a detective, (as a beat cop , he once had a gun battle with his reflection in a mirror, when he found a store door unlocked and open!:mrgreen:) carried conical "armor piercing" ammo in his Colt snubby, that had clear plastic grips, inside of which he had a picture of his second,"trophy" wife, "Skippy". At 5, I was an observant little tad.:D

When I started loading in the '60s, there was +P 158gr LSWCHP " FBI/Dade County/RCMP" load, which was carried by those who probably didn't want to carry the new, high velocity "Blue Whistlers"... 125gr @ ~1,400 fps, which wrecked the forcing cones of many fine K frame Smiths. (We shoot best with what kicks us least, maybe?)

Now, we have .38 Special 158, 125 and 110 gr +P loads, which are said to be only a little less effective than full-snort Magnum loads, much easier to shoot accurately, and wonder of wonders, the old, all most forgotten Wadcutter Match loads @~ 7-800 fps have been rediscovered by scads of knowledgeable shooters as easily-handled self-defense loads!:shock: Even in the little teeny guns that have become so popular lately!

Now, there are plain square-based, and bevel-based wadcutters and round nose-flat point boolits.;)

What's a person to do? Does it all come down to the meplat? Used in a self-defense scenario, do bevel-based Wadcutters act like the round-nosed boolits of old, or does the flat area increase effectiveness? Are round-nose flat point boolits as effective as the "old technology" semiwadcutters, with the only real advantage faster speedloading for competititions?

[Walkingwolf]

Bullet placement.

[35remington]

Yep. I don't worry so much about the other stuff as that.

My reloads are the 358311 (horrors.....a pointy roundnose!) loaded to 850 fps. Why? Because in the dark they speedload more reliably than any other configuration. Carry is a load identical or very similar to Ed Harris's (see the article he penned) full charge wadcutter.....148 Lee WC at 780 fps or so from my 638.

I don't worry about whether the bullet will expand or not because it ain't gonna.

I do not believe a shoulder on a SWC bullet adds to the wounding effect. The flat point, in my opinion, does all the work.

[buckwheatpaul]

Bullet placement, control-ability for quick follow up (you know 2 in the chest and one in the head), practice, practice, practice, and faith in your weapon and your ability will always trump hard thumping and no practice!

[Bigslug]

There's a lot of sense in the post-'86 FBI prioritization, which is placement, penetration, and expansion/diameter, in that order, and it's really not all that different from what a lot of old timers and big game hunters were all about.

Once all that's achieved however, there is benefit to a shape that causes wounding beyond the diameter of the bullet itself, even if that's only a couple tenths of an inch. The crush/grab/pull/tear effect of a flat nose (or an HP that becomes one) might produce the major arterial bleed-out that the round nose didn't.

Keith did a lot of his SWC pioneering on the easily-observed FACT that the full-diameter shoulder makes a nice clean hole in paper, and the THEORY/ASSUMPTION that it would do the same in meat. We seem to be learning that the meplat causes all the "splash" in tissue, and that the SWC shoulder ends up untouched in a void caused by what the meplat displaced. That, I can't fully speak to, as both styles can make a dandy mess of things, but I can say that the RNFP/LFN/WFN IS a better use of the space available, allowing more weight to be moved forward out of the powder chamber by virtue of the generally wider body of the nose. We frequently discuss the inability of Elmer's 173 grain 358429 (originally a .38 bullet) to work with normal crimp-groove seating in a .357 case because a lot of cylinders are too short for that combo, where there are plenty of similar weight RNFP's that will work fine in that role.

Only two potential problem with the .38 wadcutter as a house load: (1.) It's typically sitting on top of truly creampuff powder charges. So long as it's going fast enough to make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop, party on. It's a great option for those who can't shoot the hotter stuff or afford the expensive stuff (2.) Getting it cleanly into a chamber in a hurry under stress can be problematic - not really an issue if you get it done in the first five.

The 110 grain HP's I wouldn't touch with a 30 foot cleaning rod, as they hearken back to the ill-conceived notion of the 1980's 9mm load - fast, rapid expansion, rapid energy loss, didn't penetrate worth a damn. Momentum is your friend, and ping pong balls don't have it.

[Drm50]

I've got a few S&W revolvers and shoot WCs in all them except 41mgs. Don't have a 41WC mold.
My K32, K38s & M19s all are fed WCs / Target loads. I don't usually hunt with the S&Ws. I have
a M25-83/8" that is a outstanding shooter. I shoot the 454-309 WC, 237g / 12.5 gr Win -630
gives me about 800fps. Anyway took the 45 deer hunting and shot a small buck at 30yds, broadside. Classic heat & lung shot. Deer made it 15yds and went down for the count. I couldn't
have killed it deader with a HP. If you are wondering about Win-630, I was at a auction some
years back. They had seven sealed drums of W-630 , they also had many other shotgun powders.
W-630 was first up, they couldn't get a bid. Auction went clear down $4.50@, I couldn't stand it
and bought it. The rest of the powders went higher than store price.

[Scharfschuetze]

W-630 was first up, they couldn't get a bid. Auction went clear down $4.50

Lucy you. That was one of my favorite 38 Special powders in the early to mid 70s.


The 110 grain HP's I wouldn't touch with a 30 foot cleaning rod, as they hearken back to the ill-conceived notion of the 1980's 9mm load - fast, rapid expansion, rapid energy loss, didn't penetrate worth a damn. Momentum is your friend, and ping pong balls don't have it.

Amen to that. In the early 1980s I was issued what we called the Treasury Round during training at the FLETC. It was a 110 grain +P+ JHP and as noted, it didn't seem like a very good idea and it required a drastic sight change from the agency's normal 357 load.

I'm with the bullet placement gang for hand gun stopping abilities. Certainly calibre, velocity and bullet shape and type all contribute to it, but in the end, you need to hit vital organs, arteries or break a major bone. Even with center of torso hits, stopping an Adrenalin or drug saturated biped is not a guarantee of an immediate stop.

What African hunter said "Use enough Gun"? I think that it was a fellow named Ruark. Probably good advice for the hand gunners too.

[Outpost75]

AutoComp tracks really close to WC630 in terms of charge/pressure/velocity in .38 Special.

In a strong gun built for .357 you can use 630 data as a guide for loading .38 Special +P withAutoComp.

[Char-Gar]

Bullet placement.

That is about as close to pure truth as we will likely ever know. However, I would add, I pick ammo based on where I will be. If, I am in a people rich environment, like church, I carry old Federal 125 grain +P Nyclad HP in my 38 Special to reduce the risk of over penetration. Otherwise I load the revolver with full charge wadcutters.

I have a very long history with DA revolvers in 38 Special and shoot my carry gun frequently. I have a high level of confident that I can put whatever bullet, in the right place.

[Beagle333]

Bullet placement is it. Any bullet, any type, just get it (or 2 or 3) into him and then you can start nitpicking about details when he's down.

[Groo]

Groo here
As long as the hole goes where and when you want it and goes deep enough to hit the "good stuff", the rest is up to debate.
The depth a bullet goes [at a given range] is controlled by speed and the size of the flat.[ including the deformation ]
Just why someone has not made a "Flat pointer" [like for 22lr] for RN 38spec load, I don't know?

[tdoyka]

Groo here
As long as the hole goes where and when you want it and goes deep enough to hit the "good stuff", the rest is up to debate.
The depth a bullet goes [at a given range] is controlled by speed and the size of the flat.[ including the deformation ]
Just why someone has not made a "Flat pointer" [like for 22lr] for RN 38spec load, I don't know?

Paco Kelly’s AT System Flatface Rimfire Bullet Reforming Tools (http://www.gunblast.com/Paco-Flatface.htm)

i used to do my own 22lr. i'd take a chunk of steel and drill it out. i would then take a 22lr out and set it up on the table. then i would put my chunk of steel on top of my 22lr so only the nose was showing out. then i would file it away. it was a little spartan but it did the same thing. that had to be 30 or so years ago. i wonder where the chunk went?:sad:

[Good Cheer]

NEI made a 358-148 gas checked wadcutter mold that works well cast soft and jacked up.
In some revolvers you can size the front part to be a bore rider and seat the slug way out for lots of 296.
Good mold but another 25 grains would be better.

[tazman]

NOE makes a hollow point version of the 358432 which is designed to load long leaving plenty of room for powder. It shoots great.

[Von Dingo]

How bout dat

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

They also have done .380, 9 mm, .40 S & W, and .45 ACP. Worth a look.

Let the Flaming begin.

[gwpercle]

When I questioned my grandfather about his use of a single shot 22 LR rifle to hunt and kill wild hogs with , when my daddy and uncles all swore a 30-30 or 12 gauge with slugs was the minimum that could be used.....He told " Boy I'm going to tell you a secrete they haven't learned yet....it's not what you shoot them (hogs) with....it's where you place the bullet ! One shot , through the ear hole and into the brain and you got a dead hog.....every time. Remember that ."
According to the old man shot placement mattered .
Gary

[Der Gebirgsjager]

People are not made of ballistic gel.

[jmort]

Whether you accept it or not, the FBI and others have settled on it as the best medium for the prediction of terminal ballistic effect. Do you know of a better medium???
Goats have been used but that will not fly today. So what do you propose for ballistic testing???

[RoyEllis]

Whether you accept it or not, the FBI and others have settled on it as the best medium for the prediction of terminal ballistic effect. Do you know of a better medium???
Goats have been used but that will not fly today. So what do you propose for ballistic testing???

How about "Gitmo Ballistics and Autopsy Academy".....has a nice ring to the renaming, don't ya think?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

jmort--I don't care what they use. There are no bones, ligaments, tendons, or vital organs in ballistic gel. I am a firm believer in utilizing the data collected from actual street shootings. Very often the results don't correspond to gel testing at all.

[jmort]

I guess the answer to my question is that right now ballistic gelatin is the best testing medium available. The FBI testing standards are a guide to consider. The FBI has confidence in their testing protocols. Makes sense to me.

[TexasGrunt]

There's one bit of data that will help ya with gel data.

Human skin = 3-4" of gel penetration.

[Scharfschuetze]

Back in the mid 70s, the FBI rolled out one of the first computerized models of the human torso with the goal of comparing bullet effectiveness on actual bipeds. The best description of the program appeared in the long discontinued "Police Marksman" magazine. Computer Man was pretty cutting edge technology for the time when computers were still beyond anyone but big companies or governments. It predicted bullet performance to some extent, but it didn't last too long in LE circles even though it tried to differentiate between various organs, bone and what not.

While ballistic gel is obviously not perfect, there is a pretty good relationship between its results and the actual results on the street of projectiles. As an LE department firearms instructor for several years, I've seen all kinds of test media used to test various projectiles. One just has to be smart enough to understand what the media tells you compared to what it is. Don't throw the baby out with the wash water. Any bullet strike should tell you something no matter what the media even if it is protected by dry wall, plywood, clothing or what not.

In the end, humans or animals don't always respond the way they should; even with all the testing done by numerous agencies, scientists and companies all over the world.

[35remington]

Actually, due to long use, gelatin results are hardly uncorrelated to anything. Constant input from actual shootings has affirmed the FBI protocols in gelatin. That's why they are still being used decades later. The uniformity of the medium, while not exactly replacating the human body, is more desirable because it is uniform and repeatable results are more easily and uniformly obtained when comparing different ammo types and velocities.

The previous post happened about the same time mine did but we are affirming the same thing.

[Scharfschuetze]

The previous post happened about the same time mine did but we are affirming the same thing.

Yep, we were posting at the same time... like minds too.

[Walkingwolf]

Gelatin, oh yeah that is the stuff they give you in the hospital. I look at the gelatin testing the same way I do the flipper in a Glock trigger. It is a joke, IMO.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Lots of FBI fans here. I am not one of them. The FBI is a highly overrated organization that is stuck in their own self-created traditions. How long did they hang on to snubby .38s shot one-handed in a crouched position? Their gel tests are another hidebound tradition. And then, how did that 10mm work out for them? What is their number of defensive shootings total compared to that of police officers working the streets? So I ask you, who is in the better position to judge? Read the book, and related books by the same authors, "Street Stoppers."

A head shot with almost any caliber is almost always disabling, usually fatal.

A hole in the heart is the same, but may take a minute or two longer.

Most people who are shot anywhere say, "Oh my gosh--I've been shot. Time to cease and desist, shut down, go into shock", and in most cases it doesn't much matter what they are shot with. This is known as self-preservation and being reasonable.

Some, notably those on drugs, insane, or with a intensely focused mindset continue to resist/fight/aggress, until further action is made impossible due to the mechanical destruction of body parts necessary to accomplish their intentions. That would mean broken/shattered bones, extreme blood loss, etc.

Given the necessity to accomplish the mechanical destruction in these cases, without a head or heart shot, it follows that "bigger is better." Big holes leak faster. Big bullets smash bones. A .44 Mag. is preferable to a .25 ACP. Everything else falls somewhere in between, some enhanced by blunt noses or hollow point bullet configurations, but all things being equal, i.e. a .38 Sp. JHP or a .45 ACP JHP, bigger remains better. But maybe they don't penetrate gelatin as far as.......? Oooohhh--bad, bad--must drop from consideration!

All types of "media" have been used over the last century-and-a-half to test penetration and expansion. That would include plywood baffles, pine boards, newspaper wet and dry, and gelatin. If you're impressed by how many pine boards your favorite bullet will penetrate, then so be it and be happy. If you can convince yourself that the amount of gelatin penetrated by your favorite bullet is has direct correlation to the real world, be happy. As far as saving my butt goes, I'll stick with what has been shown to work in actual use. Want to know what that is? I don't mind telling you. I used to be a .45 ACP 1911 fan. Still love them, own at least a dozen. But after reading books on what actually has worked I went to the 9mm. Not just any 9mm. The best are the modern JHP designs like the Starfire and similar. I stayed with the 1911-type design in that I switched to a Star Mod. B. One size does not fit all, and you'll have to choose your own poison.

And that, my dear and highly esteemed friends, like Forrest Gump said, "is all I have to say about that." Fire away, but that's it for me! :D

[Walkingwolf]

While Jeff is not a member of the FBI I believe his testing with pork ribs, and meat are much more realistic. Is it consistent, hell no, the the human body is not consistent. Gelatin tests of 12 ga birdshot at close range have been unacceptable. But his tests of pork butts, and ribs showed that withing 20 feet the results are devastating.

JMO but if you are going to buy what the seller is telling you as gospel stay away from used car lots. They will tell you what you want to hear every time, and their only goal is putting wads of money in their bank account.

[35remington]

Given the FBI testing protocols have not been superseded by anything, rallying against something that is still being used as the standard is a waste of time. When it gets replaced feel free to declare how obsolete it is. Until then....it is neither obsolete or irrelevant. Because it is still the standard.

Better start campaigning for skinless pig rear ends as the new standard! Be prepared for the naysayers!

[Walkingwolf]

Given the FBI testing protocols have not been superseded by anything, rallying against something that is still being used as the standard is a waste of time. When it gets replaced feel free to declare how obsolete it is. Until then....it is neither obsolete or irrelevant. Because it is still the standard.

Better start campaigning for skinless pig rear ends as the new standard! Be prepared for the naysayers!

Sorry, but we can accept, or throw in the trash any standard, it is the American way. Not everybody walks in single file, some of us like to make decisions for ourselves.

[35remington]

Since most agencies use the FBI protocols, it is not for us to say their results in testing are invalid unless we suggest something they accept as superior. Their testing is the widely accepted standard until something supercedes it. Just how it is right now. Like it or not.

[Walkingwolf]

Since most agencies use the FBI protocols, it is not for us to say their results in testing are invalid unless we suggest something they accept as superior. Their testing is the widely accepted standard until something supercedes it. Just how it is right now. Like it or not.

I can say what ever I want, YOU will have to live with it, or not. I don't care, I am one of those people who make my own choices instead of blindly following some yahoo in government. As far as accepted, yea people will swallow anything, that is why so many voted for Obama.

[35remington]

Walkingwolf, just pointing out the FBI and the shooting community that uses FBI protocols, which is the very considerable majority, will keep using that protocol until they decide to change. There is considerable backing and reasoning for doing so. There is no sense getting upset about it.

[Walkingwolf]

Walkingwolf, just pointing out the FBI and the shooting community that uses FBI protocols, which is the very considerable majority, will keep using that protocol until they decide to change. There is considerable backing and methodology for doing so. There is no sense getting upset about it.
They can keep doing whatever they want, it has nothing to do with me, and many others here. If you want to shake the FBI's hand, and give them kudo's I believe they have a website.

[35remington]

Since the rest of the firearm industry and law enforcement and shooters have paid great attention to the FBI protocols and use said protocols as their overwhelming standard of comparison, I would say the FBI is getting enough congratulatory attention that they do not need mine as well.

[Walkingwolf]

Apparently not, since those industries still sell in large quantities firearms, and ammo NOT based on the FBI. Hate to break your bubble, but those are the facts.

[35remington]

The standard ballistic testing protocol for defensive ammunition for rifle, pistol and shotgun is the FBI's. That is also fact.

[Walkingwolf]

The standard ballistic testing protocol for defensive ammunition for rifle, pistol and shotgun is the FBI's. That is also fact.

Yup, and again that standard is FOR the FBI, and the others that will defecate in the middle of the road if the FBI told them to. As for the rest of us, this is still a free country where we can buy any type of ammo we like in most states, we can also buy the gun of our choice in most states. And to add a cherry to the topping on the cake, we can thumb our nose at the fanboys.

And that is a fact, one that is very painful for fanboys.

[35remington]

Walkingwolf, at this point you are ranting. The lurid invective suggests you are way too personally involved with your feelings about something you can't change. This is a waste of your time.

I get that you are horribly upset that the FBI standard protocols exist. I get that you are upset that a lot of knowledgeable people pay attention to the results of such standardized testing. Trouble is, a lot of credentialed people do just that. Standards have to exist as a basis for comparison, and nobody has come up with a better one yet, so here we are.

It is unlikely a guy who favors shooting chopped up dead pig rear ends will replace it as the standard testing methodology anytime soon.

Feel free to develop your own methodology, popularize it and defend it from any detractors. It is a free country. Lots of freedom to do so still exists.

FBI testing protocols are the most widely used and accepted ballistic testing occurring at the moment. Unless your own ideas suddenly get widely accepted there is not a lot you can do about it.

[Walkingwolf]

Hey, I am not the one making demands, YOU are. I am only posting that I have a free mind, and make my choices without someone holding my hand. That is clearly upsetting you, and I am enjoying it.

[35remington]

I have not made a single demand whatsoever. Just pointing out how it is.

Try to get some sleep tonight. I guarantee that tomorrow nothing will have changed.

[Walkingwolf]

Since most agencies use the FBI protocols, it is not for us to say their results in testing are invalid unless we suggest something they accept as superior. Their testing is the widely accepted standard until something supercedes it. Just how it is right now. Like it or not.

Seems to me you tried to lay down the your mandate, and impotent mandate at that. That free will defeats overbearing every time.

[35remington]

Be calm, WW. It will be okay in the end.

[Walkingwolf]

Be calm, WW. It will be okay in the end.

I am calm, worry about yourself. Sorry you messed up trying to speak for the members, but that free will got in your way again. Calm, yea I am laughing my butt off at you watching you squirm.

[tazman]

:popcorn:

[Walkingwolf]

:popcorn:

How about a beer with that popcorn, this could be long night before he gets it.

[tazman]

How about a beer with that popcorn, this could be long night before he gets it.

I tried to post it right after he responded but you were too fast.

[tazman]

What I use depends on where I am and what my expectations are.
For general purpose around the house use for quick put downs, I have an 870 12ga loaded with #4 steel shot. Usage no further than 30 feet.
For the bedside, I have a 1911 45acp so if he is close and I need him to back up a couple of steps, the 230 hardball should get his attention.
For more precise use in the desk is a S&W 15 loaded with wadcutters. That little gun will shoot eyeball size groups at 10 yards.
For CCW currently is a S&W model 60 3 inch with wadcutters and a speedloader with 358311 loads to make the reloading easy.
In the basement near where I work is a Beretta 92fs. If I get visitors there, I probably need the extra ammo for the friends that bad guy brought with him.
I don't worry much about bullet expansion. I intend to put the first, second, and third boolits where they will be most effective. That is why I practice twice a week.
I sincerely hope I never need to use them.

[Walkingwolf]

Most of the police officers I grew up with were hunters, and most were crack shots. The other officers could shoot on a range, but when they asked to go hunting with my father they lacked the skills to hit a running rabbit. Now that may sound odd ball, but a running rabbit is a small target. Hunting, shooting skills, and tactics are more important that ammo, IMO. Some agencies also IMO could have saved lives by concentrating on tactics, and training instead of wasting money on gelatin. Unless ambushed, it is usually tactical failures that get officers killed. Is it any surprise that some of the most famous lawmen gunfighters were cowboys, and hunters, or sportsmen with a lot experience with a gun.

But changing ammo, and guns is a good way to line some pockets, pretty much how government works.

Tazman your choices are pretty much the same as mine. The first rounds in my revolvers are wadcutters, the reloads are SWC. I like either 230 ball, or 200 lead flat point for the 45, and I practice almost daily with training aids. I shoot at least once a month sometimes once a week. I shoot airsoft replicas every day.

A lesson can be learned from units like Massad, and special forces. Spend enough time training the type of ammo really does not matter. Also having the right equipment for the job is a must, the FBI should spend the money to make sure every agent is outfitted, and trained with a rifle, and shotgun. Everyone outside of desk riders IMO should be on the range once a month, if not more. Instead of shooting gelatin, they should be working on their tactical skills.

My first dept was a small dept, but we were required to be on the range every month. We were not given a pass for poor marksmanship, no less than 90 hits out of 100. Every month at least a couple officers were sent to specialized tactical training. That could be night shooting, felony stops, high risk takedowns, and even staying alive on traffic stops. As well as practice clearing buildings, and responding to calls. We pretty much trained like firemen, and it is exactly what most agencies should be spending their money on. From what I have seen even the NYPD has a better record of keeping their officers alive in firefights than the FBI.

[Char-Gar]

I thought the classic Morgue Monsters vs. Jello Junkies debate was over, but it appears I was wrong.

In the end, we all carry the handgun and ammo that suits our fancy at the time. If we need to use it, we just hope our fancy at the time was a good one.

Addendum: Police officers are trained very different today. They are taught to get off quick shots at center mass very quickly and very close. Pitch a beer can out to 25 yards and most can't make it jump.

[tazman]

Addendum: Police officers are trained very different today. They are taught to get off quick shots at center mass very quickly and very close. Pitch a beer can out to 25 yards and most can't make it jump.

This is true. They are also taught to keep shooting until the threat is stopped(read that as until the body stops twitching or you run out of ammo). No offense to police officers here but this was told to me by 2 police officers in a local large city and I don't think they were kidding.

I had a friend a few years ago( he moved) who trained constantly on draw and shoot 2 to center of mass so that it became a reflex for him. He was good at it too.
Only problem was the reflex took over to the place where he couldn't carry the gun unless he was on duty or at a range. If you surprised him at all he was ready to shoot(as in gun was drawn) before he could stop himself. He got a little spooky to be around.
I think he finally stopped training because he was afraid he would shoot some one when he should not. Haven't heard from him in years now.

[Scharfschuetze]

This is true. They are also taught to keep shooting until the threat is stopped(read that as until the body stops twitching or you run out of ammo). No offense to police officers here but this was told to me by 2 police officers in a local large city and I don't think they were kidding.

Quite true Taz. It works too. A hostile and armed target is much different from a tin can or paper target and has to be dealt with quite expeditiously under a great deal of stress and usually in dim light. Ranges are generally very short compared to what we do at the range or when plinking. Gun, ammo, speed and accuracy all play a part as well as the psychological motivation to survive or win.

[Walkingwolf]

The tactic is seriously flawed, and it the reason that bystanders are shot. It is reckless to engage in spray, and play, and that is exactly what has taken place in so many shootings. When it comes down to it the threat is stopped by one, or two shots, all those others give the threat time to kill.

Darren Wilson fired 12 rounds, only connected with six, and only two stopped the threat. God knows where those other six rounds went

He made similar mistakes as the FBI by flying by the seat of his pants, and trying to be a hero. His own testimony showed he acted with lack of respect for his life, and that of responding officers. He clearly saw the size of MB, and that he was not alone. When told to get out of the street DW admitted that MB became verbally combative using profane language. Then he heard the report of an armed robbery that he could be suspect. Yet with all that he drove his SUV up to MB, and rolled down his window. Doing this to a bad guy is like having a neon sign over the head that says "assault me".

Accuracy, tactics, restraint, proper planning, enough backup saves lives. In the case of the FBI cooperation with local, and state law enforcement, and proper equipment. Fortunately civilians do not have to be heroes, and take risks that police do. We do not need rifles, unless we expect trouble, then we can avoid trouble. Add to that if we shoot an innocent bystander especially practicing spray, and pray we will lose everything dear to us.

ETA if like me you carry a SA revolver accuracy is very high on the list, as well as tactics.