Ok, I'm an idiot, need help.

[JNG3]

I have an older Lyman 358429 mold. Just started casting with this mold. Thought I'd make some up to use in my Henry Big Boy 357. Casted a few last night and made up some 'dummy' rounds to check for function (no primer no powder). Well using 357 mag brass and crimping in the crimp groove I ended up with an overall length of 1.641". Max length according to the Lyman casting book is 1.590". The brass is just under max length. Even if I trim to minimum length I'm still grossly over max overall cartridge length. And no they will NOT feed through the Henry at 1.641"! The dummy rounds barely fit the cylinder of my GP100, although they would work. So what gives? I know this is a very popular design/mold for the 38spl/357mag. How are you all loading these?

[44MAG#1]

Lyman loaded short and crimped over the leading edge of the front band. Their data will be safe at that length. At Lyman's length they should feed in the Henry.
As long as they fit and function in the revolver at the longer length they will be fine.
Ive used them many times at the longer length in Handguns. Don't over think this.

[Toymaker]

So don't use the crimp groove. With my 30-06 Garand, 45-70 Rolling Block, 38-55 High Wall, and Colt Officer's Target 38 Special I've found that case tension of a full-length sized, then neck expanded is sufficient to hold a cast bullet in place. Because the RB and HW are single shot rifles to test them I thumped the butt soundly several times and re-measured the OAL. For the Garand I loaded the enbloc and re-measured the OAL of the remaining rounds after each shot. For the pistol I did the same thing. For a Rock River AR in 5.56x45 I did the same but used jacketed bullets. That made me curious and I redid the test with the Garand and Colt using jacketed bullets too. I didn't get any significant change in the OAL of any round. But accuracy with the Garand is better with a taper crimp. I haven't tested the SIG P229 (40 caliber), Beretta PX-Storm Subcompact (40 caliber) or S&W .380 as yet.

[Mk42gunner]

The thing people tend to forget these days is the fact that Elmer Keith designed the 358429 for the .38 Special and the short cylinder of the N frame S&W years before the .357 Magnum came out. Why S&W didn't lengthen the cylinder of the Magnum is a good question.

The GP-100 cylinder is one that some times works with the 358429, sometimes not; depending on which variation of Lyman mold you have.

Robert

[gundownunder]

I think you will find that the 358429 was not meant to be a 357 magnum bullet. It was designed to be a 38 special bullet. Elmer Keith used it to make his 38/44 loads, which are a 38 special load designed for a revolver built on a 44 special frame.
You can safely duplicate that load in 357 magnum guns.
You will need to look the load up to confirm the details, but if I remember it correctly, it is 38 spl brass, 358429 bullet, and 12 grains of Alliant 2400.
I did make up a similar load many years ago when I first got my 357 Marlin, but my bullet was a 175 grain RNFP. Accuracy was poor compared to standard 357 loads.
Those 38/44 loads are a 357 magnum load in a 38 spl case. Do not let them find their way into a 38 spl revolver, as they will have catastrophic results.

[rond]

Trim your brass.

[44MAG#1]

Do as Lyman does. Don't over think this. Keith's load was 13.5 gr 2400 and is well documented

[osteodoc08]

Just crimp lightly on the front driving band.

id recommend against trimming brass below spec. It will invariably get mixed in with other brass and could result in higher pressures of some load down the road. If you do want to trim, just get 38 special brass and load to 38 special data.

[mdi]

I think I'd try 38 Special brass. If you really need velocity, you can use +P loads...

[Tackleberry41]

I had the same sort of issue with a 158gr NOE bullet. Data in the lyman book is very bullet specific. Using 357 mag brass trimmed to the proper length and using that NOE bullet, they were way long, not enough wouldn't fit in a cylinder, very close tho. But the velocities were way low. Same issue with 45 colt using an NOE bullet. I had to cut the case short to get a good crimp and the proper length. You would probably get low velocity with the 357 your messing with, you will have to trim to fit the bullet and get that length. Really need that crimp on 357 and a lever gun.

[44MAG#1]

Do yourself a favor and do the simple first. Load so you can CRIMP OVER THE EDGE of the front drive band. Work up the load before you go hog wild with doing a bunch of experiments that may or may not benefit you.
Then if you don't get good enough results try something else. Go simple at first.
Not rocket science.

[gwpercle]

That's the only problem with that design....but then it was designed for 38 special.
Why not use 38 special cases and drop the powder charge accordingly.

[Char-Gar]

You are not an idiot! I know that because idiots don't ask for help.

[woody1]

I'm looking at my 358429 loads for my Marlin 1894. The label reads
358429 @ 172 gr. .360 "
12.1 gr. 2400 w/ wsp
oal 1.593 (rifle) ~1600 fps

These are only taper crimped at just short of the forward edge of the forward driving band. They feed and shoot dandy in my rifle. YMMV

Forgot, these are loaded in W-W nickle 357 mag cases.

[prsman23]

You are not an idiot! I know that because idiots don't ask for help.

I was just about to post the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Texas by God]

Seat a bullet in a dummy .357 case until it will cycle in your Henry. Crimp there if possible; if not use .38 brass.

[JNG3]

OK, did some research. Seems this bullet design pre dates the 357 mag. It really was developed for the 38 spl. Based on comments in this thread and the research, I have 3 choices-
1. Crimp in front of the front driving band.
2. Use 38 spl cases and load data.
3. Use 357 brass and data BUT cut the cases down until the COAL matches the load data and then I can crimp in the crimping groove.
I know some here don't recommend cutting down 357 brass due to time involved and the fear of mixing that load in with 38 spl.

[gundownunder]

My mistake on the Keith load.
The 12 grain load was actually Glen Fryxell's
He loaded the 358429 behind 12 grains of 2400 in a Marlin lever gun for 1556 fps.
His article is a good read.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/marlin_1894.htm

Crimping over the front band may have its own problems.
If you don't have a full case of powder what stops the bullet backing into the case.
Remember that the crimp over the front band was done for revolvers, where recoil would cause the bullet to back out of the case. In a rifle the bullet is more likely to push into the case, due to pressure from the magazine spring.

[Teddy (punchie)]

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Bullets/358429_170g.gif


358429 Designed by Elmer Keith for .38 Special and .357 Mag. (PB, SWC, 168 - TP is 429)

1.553 is the OAL is noted for the 358429 bullet at 170 gr.


okay kiss :

1.280 trim to length

OAL is 1.590

in notes : Lyman manual

""In order to maintain a maximum cartridge length of 1.590 it is sometimes necessary to crimp cast bullets on forward edge of driving band ""

[Teddy (punchie)]

I have an older Lyman 358429 mold. Just started casting with this mold. Thought I'd make some up to use in my Henry Big Boy 357. Casted a few last night and made up some 'dummy' rounds to check for function (no primer no powder). Well using 357 mag brass and crimping in the crimp groove I ended up with an overall length of 1.641". Max length according to the Lyman casting book is 1.590". The brass is just under max length. Even if I trim to minimum length I'm still grossly over max overall cartridge length. And no they will NOT feed through the Henry at 1.641"! The dummy rounds barely fit the cylinder of my GP100, although they would work. So what gives? I know this is a very popular design/mold for the 38spl/357mag. How are you all loading these?

After reading over things the Lyman Bullet casting Manual says 1.553 OAL for the 358429 bullet so you were 37 thousands too long.

I hope to get a 357 lever one day, :smile: but after used a Henry 22 lever once was enough, had to dig the 22 rim fire out. :groner: I liked the looks and feel of a Henry . :sad:

Have a Good One!!

[Bzcraig]

Henry's were designed for round nosed boolits (if you do a search you'll find a few threads about this) and my Henry in 44mag won't feed any boolit with a sharp shoulder regardless of OAL.

[Bigslug]

OK, did some research. Seems this bullet design pre dates the 357 mag. It really was developed for the 38 spl. Based on comments in this thread and the research, I have 3 choices-
1. Crimp in front of the front driving band.
2. Use 38 spl cases and load data.
3. Use 357 brass and data BUT cut the cases down until the COAL matches the load data and then I can crimp in the crimping groove.


4. Cruise over to the NOE Molds site and jump in on this group buy before it closes: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php?topic=1880.0

Thanks to the WFN nose profile you get about the same weight (179 vs 173 grains), a shorter nose (.315" vs. .351"), and a shorter shank in the case (.370" vs. .393") taking up space in your boiler room.

[DougGuy]

So far in this thread I have read some great advice but there is one glaring omission. What are you sizing the boolits to OP? Not only is COA a factor but also boolit diameter. Some leverguns will chamber anything that will go through a 38/357 loading die, could drop .359" - .360" and drop right in the chamber where these same loads won't chamber in a revolver because the boolit is too big to go into the cylinder throat.

You mentioned they would barely go in your GP100, are you sure there is no interference with the boolit in the throat or your levergun and not just COA alone that is giving you fits?

[BrutalAB]

JNG3 If you happen to find a load that is reasonably accurate with that boolit in the Henry would you mind sharing it? I gave up on it after a few loads because of finding other boolits that were easier to find good loads.
To get back to your original question, if you seat that boolit to the depth Lyman suggests you will find that the crimp will be just over the front edge of the boolit. I found that the amount of crimp applied will affect the overall length in the end so make sure all your brass is trimmed to exactly the same.

[JNG3]

OK, here's what I've accomplished so far on this. I cut 357 brass down to 1.195". When crimped in the crimp groove, this gives an overall length 1.56". Lyman calls for an overall length of 1.553". It's my understanding that Lyman has made umpteen changes to the 358429 mold over the years. This is I get with my mold. The dummy cartridges feed and chamber effortlessly in my Henry BBS 357. Now to develop the load. Thanks to all that helped!