Please splain neck sizing to me.

[fastdadio]

I think I get the big picture here. I have a lot of 100, 30-06 cases dedicated to my Weatherby Vanguard. I have fired and reloaded them twice now. Since they won't be fired in any other rifle, I think it is best to only neck size them. This should make them last longer? I've never done this before. Do I just lower the expander/decapping rod lower down in the die so that I don't have to run the case all the way up and resize all the way to the base? Is there more to it than this?
Thanks,
Dave.
:?:

[725]

Once a case is fired in a chamber, it expands to the form of the chamber and then rebounds ever so slightly. The neck expands enough to release the bullet. Neck sizing only reshapes the neck and is then expanded back to correct dimension to give tension for the next bullet. Having the body "form fitted" to the chamber centers it with a tighter tolerance thus lining up the bullet before the barrel. Full length sizing "works' the brass more than just letting it stay "form fitted" and that's how brass hardens up. "Work Hardened". Working it less should prolong the brass life. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the neck is getting worked back and forth, getting work hardened. Annealing brings the brass neck back and softens the brass for a longer life. At least that's how I understand it.

[Bird]

You may not need to resize the complete length of the neck, depending on how far your bullet is seated into the case. After a few firings you will need to bump the shoulder back, which will become apparent when it becomes difficult to chamber a round. I do this for every rifle I reload for.

[Char-Gar]

If you want to neck size 30-06 cases, order a neck sizing die. When you have it, adjust it just like your would a FL sizing die.

[Texas by God]

Use a kitchen match to smoke the neck of a lubed case. Run it slowly into the sizing die until the soot is rubbed off just shy of the shoulder. Adjust the lock ring and decap stem accordingly. I load all my rifle cartridges this way except AR ammo.
Best, Thomas.

[BK7saum]

I gave up neck sizing a long time ago. IF I have to full length resize anyway every 4th or 5th loading, I decided to full length resize every time for consistency. I bump the shoulder back 0.001" from the fired measurement. Never had a problem with inaccuracy or shortened brass life. Most times if you don't anneal, the neck is the first thing to go by cracking.

I think where folks have issues with full length resizing and case life is setting the die to cam over on the shell holder. In some cases, the loader could be bumping the shoulder 0.001-005 or even 0.008" or more, which would lead to case head separation in short order.

[Texas by God]

A sizing die should never contact the sizing die past the stroke. A sheet of paper between the die & shellholder for fl sizing. A seating die should be well away from the shell holder to prevent shoulder alteration. 1/8" of gap is good.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm still trying to digest what "Texas by God" wrote but I think he meant the SHELL HOLDER shouldn't touch the sizing die but I could be wrong.

In any event, bottle necked rifle casings that are only fired in one rifle, benefit from neck sizing. 725 explained it well in post #2.

I have seen significant improvements in accuracy by neck sizing casings and confining them to a specific rifle.

[Char-Gar]

A sizing die should never contact the sizing die past the stroke. A sheet of paper between the die & shellholder for fl sizing. A seating die should be well away from the shell holder to prevent shoulder alteration. 1/8" of gap is good.

That would be correct, if we are talking about carbide dies and handgun rounds. However if you are talking about full length resizing of bottle neck rifle cases, that is incorrect. One should read the instructions that come with the die. You will learn that the FL die should contact the top of the shell holder with enough snap to remove the slack from the linkage. If the die and shell holder are of the same make and in spec., this will give a resized case of of standard dimensions that will chamber in any rifle chamber that is also in spec.

Sometimes this does not happen. That is why I always check a FL sized case in a Wilson case gauge or the rifle chamber itself.

Like Petrol & Powder, I neck size only if the case is going to be fired in the original chamber. This removes any slack between the case and the chamber and does help with accuracy. A reloaded can also partial size the case where the case shoulder is not contacted by the die and not moved back. This is done by smoking the case and adjusting the die down to resize the neck and not contact the shoulder. I prefer to buy a proper neck sizing die and avoid the hassle of adjusting the FL die.

These days, when I want to FL size a 30-06 case, I used a Wilson FL sizing die and an arbor press. These dies are so built that they will produce a case just like the new ones that come out of the package. A little slow, but no mistake.

[Texas by God]

CharGar I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't set the die to compress the linkage unless drastic measures are called for. (Diff'rent strokes haha)
I will not load ammo for friends/family without the firearm present. I'll not buy a ton of loaded round gauges either.
IMO- Thomas.

[Char-Gar]

CharGar I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't set the die to compress the linkage unless drastic measures are called for. (Diff'rent strokes haha)
I will not load ammo for friends/family without the firearm present. I'll not buy a ton of loaded round gauges either.
IMO- Thomas.

This Wilson Case Gauge is not a loaded round gauge. It measure the headspace of the case and it's over all length. It is not used on loaded rounds but cases.

I do not have any loaded round gauges, having never seen the purpose. I can check if a loaded round will chamber, by either putting it in the cylinder of the revolver, or pulling the barrel of an autopistol and dropping the rounds in the chamber. I do this with a round or two to check the die setting and them proceed to load the batch. I have never had a round fail to chamber using this method.

[robg]

Handloader had an article on this .if I remember correctly there was no difference in accuracy between full length sizing and nck sizing .me I just full length size I'm the weak link for accuracy not the ammunition.

[Char-Gar]

Handloader had an article on this .if I remember correctly there was no difference in accuracy between full length sizing and nck sizing .me I just full length size I'm the weak link for accuracy not the ammunition.

Better check with the bench rest shooters who are trying to put 10 bullets through one hole before coming to any conclusions about being no difference in accuracy between FL sizing and neck sizing. In a hunting rifle, it is not a significant factor, but if you are chasing ultimate accuracy it is.

Please realize the people who write commercial pulp magazines are cranking out words for pay. They are trying to appeal to general shooters and not accuracy buffs. Their "testing" is directed to their readership most of whom are not sophisticated shooters. I have read lots of stuff in pulp magazines that have no value to me and often are wrong or misleading. That is why I have no bought or read one in the last 15 years.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

You can neck size only with standard full length sizing dies for those calibers that have some body taper - 30-06, 30-30, 7x57. Simply leaving a gap between the die and shellholder accomplishes this. The less taper a case has, the less likely this will work. It has not worked for me for the 308 or 243, while my 303 Savage and 32 Special neck size just fine using full-length dies. The Lee collet die works well for neck-sizing. I use a Redding S die with neck sizing inserts to minimize working the brass for both neck sizing and full length sizing(different dies). I do neck-size 30-30 and 303 Savage using my Redding 308 S die with the 'right' diameter insert. I also use the Redding Competition Shellholders when full-length sizing most calibers. Then Redding Competition shellholders are designed to fully impact the sizing die to more precisely control headspace of the sized case. Depending on your load levels, you can also reduce headspace pushing the shoulder back on rimless cases due to firing pin impact. Some folks swear by neck sizing while others don't like it. It was very popular 30 or 40+ years ago when there was less equipment available for reloading. It can lengthen case life although neck annealing will come into play sooner or later.

[Texas by God]

I had a late friend that was an accuracy buff. His stepson brought over the 6mm Dasher that my buddy used in competition.
The ammo was neck sized only halfway down the neck.
I fired three shots into .19"-he said that group was a "yawner"-lol.
I truly believe there is a difference in accuracy fl vs ns.
Brass lasts longer too. That is a fact.
Best, Thomas.

[Larry Gibson]

fastdadio

By NSing the cases you will get many, many firings per case.......many more than if you FL sized or attempted to partial size. The problem with partial sizing using the FL die as you suggest is, depending on chamber dimensions, the case will be expanded clear down to the expansion ring near the head. The FL die, even when backed out, can still size the sides of the case. The brass there is pushed in and the shoulder is pushed slightly forward. This can lead to hard chambering in only a couple firings necessitating FL sizing and trimming. With that he case gets progressively thinner in the expansion ring and eventually the case develops incipient case head separation.

Best to just get a regular NS die as already mentioned. A regular NS die as sold by Redding and RCBS will work fine but the Lee Collet die is also to be recommended. NSing LC Match '06 cases for use in my M1903 Match rifle I get 9 - 10 firings with full power M72 Match equivalent loads using 4895 and Varget under 174/175 match bullets. I then use a RCBS X-Die to FL size and continue NSing after that. I have not had to trim the cases nor have I lost any to any reason.

If you want to FL size after each firing then I recommend the RCBS X-die. I have fired full power loads though 20 test casts for 20 reloads and they are still going strong.


With cast bullet loads all I ever do is NS. I've not found FL or partial sizing to ever be needed for any bolt action of any caliber. These are from minimal psi loads to 50+ thousand measured psi. I have 1 box of 50 cases for my 30x60 XCB rifle which I push a 164 gr cast 30 XCB bullet out at 2900 fps with 49k psi. The cases have been fired 10 times now and have never been FL sized since forming. NSin is all that is needed.

Also not that with cat's sneeze, squib, mouse fart etc. type loads used in push feed actions case headspace may become a problem but that has nothing to do with sizing.

Larry Gibson

[robg]

Better check with the bench rest shooters who are trying to put 10 bullets through one hole before coming to any conclusions about being no difference in accuracy between FL sizing and neck sizing. In a hunting rifle, it is not a significant factor, but if you are chasing ultimate accuracy it is.

Please realize the people who write commercial pulp magazines are cranking out words for pay. They are trying to appeal to general shooters and not accuracy buffs. Their "testing" is directed to their readership most of whom are not sophisticated shooters. I have read lots of stuff in pulp magazines that have no value to me and often are wrong or misleading. That is why I have no bought or read one in the last 15 years.

I was not talking about specialist equipment for bench rest I was Referring to your factory rifle ,I also like to know I won't have trouble chambering a round when I need it .I can't shoot well enough to see a difference.��

[Texas by God]

I am sorry about Post Number 7. My brain slash finger interface was not working properly.

[fastdadio]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I knew the what, and the whys, I just didn't know the how to. Also, I didn't know there were dies made just for neck sizing. So i went out and read up on that, and then went shopping. I think I'm going to order the Lee collet for neck sizing. From what I read, a lot of folks are happy with them. About $10.00 bux cheaper than the RCBS die. Lee dies will fit my RCBS rock chucker press correct?

[clearcut]

lee will fit rcbs rock chucker.

CC

[fastdadio]

lee will fit rcbs rock chucker.CCThank you sir. Lee collett it is.

[fatelvis]

Another option, if you're planning on neck sizing several different calibers is:
Buy a Redding bushing "neck size only" die for a short, wide cartridge. (I use a 7mm BR sizer). Doing this allows you to just buy the appropriate sized bushing for each cartridge you wish to neck size. The die acts as a universal "bushing holder". Economical, versitile, and if you buy the Tin coated bushings, you won't need lube while sizing, (I still lube though).

[fastdadio]

Another option, if you're planning on neck sizing several different calibers is:Buy a Redding bushing "neck size only" die for a short, wide cartridge. (I use a 7mm BR sizer). Doing this allows you to just buy the appropriate sized bushing for each cartridge you wish to neck size. The die acts as a universal "bushing holder". Economical, versitile, and if you buy the Tin coated bushings, you won't need lube while sizing, (I still lube though).Interesting, and thanks for mentioning it. You know this has to lead to more questions, right? So, the only other cartridge I may want to neck size is the 30-30. Cases fired only in my Trapper. However, I did read this may not be a good idea for lever guns and could lead to tight chambering action and possibly a stuck cartridge. Izzat true? Then there is the fact that I shoot mostly mouse farts through that rifle (+/- 1200fps) 170gr. and brass is cheap and plentiful. So the question is, is it evern worth pursuing?

[fatelvis]

I neck size my 30-30 brass every other loading. I load them pretty light using a 311041, and closing the lever doesn't pose a problem. When I do FL size, I use Redding's competition shellholders and only set the shoulders back .002". Brass has lasted over 10yrs so far.... Can you tell I'm a fan of Redding? Lol

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I seldom full-length size my 30-30 and 303 Savage cases used with 'modest loads'. I use 18 grains of H4198 under the NOE (RCBS) 30 FN (195 grains). In the my 1963 Marlin 336 30-30 I shot 15 grains of IMR4227 with the Lymnan 311041 and the Lyman 311407. I have gotten more 10 firings or more firings from a case before more sizing was needed. Annealing is usually needed before resizing with modest loading. I did start by full-length resizing cartridge cases that had fired 'full' or factory jacketed bullet cases. In 1964 that's where you got brass to reload. I use my Redding 'S' 308 Win bushing die for 243, 308, 30-30 and 303 Savage. The 308 bushing diameter I use (.336 or .335) does not size the thinner necks of the 30-30 and 303 Savage. I use a .331 or .332 bushing for them. A Lyman or NOE 'M' type stepped expander is then used before seating. I am a fan of the Redding Competition shellholders for full-length resizing. I usually only crimp for tube feed magazines, then lightly unless heavy recoil is involved (444, 45-70). I chamber the fired cases during load development(carefully). If a case rechambers and extracts after firing and before resizing, I consider that load level safe and relatively mild in my rifles.

[Smk SHoe]

+1 on the redding bushing neck sizer die. Once you figure out how much tension you want and the brass thickness then you just order that bushing. For all my bench guns that I neck size for, I have the bushing I Need and one +.002 and one -.002 to cover any changes.

[fastdadio]

OK folks, I'm back with issues. I got the Lee collett neck sizing die and sized a lot of 40 rds of 30-06. This brass has only been fired through my Vangaurd which is the rifle I'm loading for. I then flaired the case mouth of two pieces using an RCBS neck expander and checked and found the boolits drop right in. Way too loose. So I then ran those back into the standard sizing die just deep enough to size the flair back down. I decided to simply load the rest of the lot as they came out of the collett die. Still too loose. Loading the Lee 170gr, fl, gc, sized .3095, I seated 7 rounds to the crimp groove and gave them a very mild bump crimp into the crimp groove. The boolits are now fixed in place by the crimp but I can spin them between my fingers in the case neck. I don't this is right. Should I run the rest of this lot back into the standard resizing die to tighten the necks up? Other ideas? Opinions on what I'm doing wrong? I have 33 pieces of brass charged with powder sitting in the block. Which way should I go?

[sghart3578]

Make sure that you followed the set up instructions. I would then remove the center mandrel and measure it with a micrometer. It should be around .305".

I have gotten oversized expanders before.

Resist the urge to over tighten the die in your press thinking that you can increase neck tension. With the mandrel in the neck there is only so much sizing possible. The only thing that you will accomplish is jamming brass up into the fingers of the collet and seizing it up. There is a finite adjustment for the Lee Collet Die, once you reach it going past that point will cause damage.

To adjust the die, raise the ram of your press with the shell holder in it. Screw the collet die down slowly while watching the bottom of the die. It spins independently of the die body. As you are screwing down stop when the insert stops spinning, as in first contacting the shell plate. The lower the ram and screw in one more turn and lock it down. That is your starting point.

A lot of folks make the mistake of screwing down the die until there is no more movement, then going one turn past that. This is too much and can jam up the works.



Steve in N CA

[fatelvis]

Fastdadio, it is evident that you need to tighten the neck tension. This can be done in two ways... tightening the sizer, and/or using a larger boolit. Personally, I would do a little of each. Chuck up the sizing mandrel in a drill and bring it down .001" -.002" with some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and size your Boolits about .001" bigger. My eight 30 cal rifles shoot best with boolits sized between .310-.311". If you can spin the boolit after being loaded, you need at least .002" more neck tension.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toallmy]

I don't think you have the lee die adjusted properly , take your time and start over , don't reload or shoot the ones you can drop a Boolit in .

[Silverboolit]

OP....Off topic for sure, but you have a vanguard, right? Have you done a pound cast of the chamber yet?? I have a Howa 1500 in .308 and had a myrid of problems with it shooting well. It was brought to light with the cast of the chamber that the throat measured .312 right in front of the chamber. Also, the groove diameter was .309 instead of the usual .308. After I started to size to .312 about half of my problems went away and I am shooting much smaller groups.

I use the same collet die as you, but I have substituted the .303 british mandrel as the .308 mandrel was sizing down my boolit too much. The .303 is at .311 diameter and doesn't size the boolits at all.

Just thought that I'd throw this in to the mix. Maybe help you, maybe not.

[fastdadio]

OK guys, I'm on a roll out here. I didn't have the collett die adjusted correctly. Things I've learned in the past two hours: Set the die deeper, It takes more force than I'm used to having to apply to a die, Press the case multiple times rotating the case between presses. It sure is nice having a lap top out in the garage. Mamma got a new one so I get to have the old one out here. Kind of like the cars. She gets a new one and I get the beater. Thanks for the good advice and keeping me going. I'm loading up ladders of H4895 under the Lee 170gr starting at 33 gr up to 36gr. Looking to get into the 2000fps range for corn crunchers and yotes.

[fastdadio]

OP....Off topic for sure, but you have a vanguard, right? Have you done a pound cast of the chamber yet?? I have a Howa 1500 in .308 and had a myrid of problems with it shooting well. It was brought to light with the cast of the chamber that the throat measured .312 right in front of the chamber. Also, the groove diameter was .309 instead of the usual .308. After I started to size to .312 about half of my problems went away and I am shooting much smaller groups.

I use the same collet die as you, but I have substituted the .303 british mandrel as the .308 mandrel was sizing down my boolit too much. The .303 is at .311 diameter and doesn't size the boolits at all.

Just thought that I'd throw this in to the mix. Maybe help you, maybe not.

I have not done a cast. However, This is not my first loading with this rifle and it did very well with cast last time out. The Lee boolit I'm using is a bore rider. When seated in the crimp groove, a round chambered and extracted bears witness marks from the rifling. Last time out, I printed 1.25" group at 50 yds. with 39 grs 4895, no leading at all. Not too shabby. I also shot 12 rounds into a raggety hole at 50 yds with the same boolit with no gas check. loaded with7 grs of Tite Group. Nice. The rifle is new and I'm just getting started in my load development. Never had copper down the bore and It's showing great promise as a cast shooter.

[Silverboolit]

Glad to hear that you are not having the problems that I had. Best of luck!!

[Silverboolit]

Glad to hear that you are not having the problems that I had.. Good luck!

[guicksylver]

Glad too hear someone mention the Lee collet die..while not the best on the market ..I have found through the last couple of years using them like three times a week ..that they can be adjusted quite readily to compensate for differences in thicknesses of the brass in the necks..i.e Rem. vs Winchester vs FC..

Being able to do so helps in lessening the working of the brass even further and makes adjusting the neck tension easier....as well as making expanding the neck easier..win win all around...

[fastdadio]

Being able to do so helps in lessening the working of the brass even further and makes adjusting the neck tension easier....as well as making expanding the neck easier..win win all around...

Which leads me to the question of annealing. Estimate of how many loadings before it becomes a good idea to do it? I started this prolect with 100 new Winchester nickle plated. I have 50 set aside until I get my pet loads figured out and then I'll load those. Until then, I'm on my 3rd loading of this lot of 50. I bell the mouths only so slightly as to be able to get a boolit started. Any opinions on when I should anneal this lot?

[toallmy]

I always found nickel plated bottle neck rifle brass much harder to resize . Although it has been years since I used it .

[fastdadio]

I bought it because it is purdy and would be tarnish resistant. And yes, it does seem harder. I have a lot of Lake City brass for the M1 and this nickle stuff is harder than that. I think I just talked myself into annealing it after this loading. Can't hurt.