.38 special bullet size

[lotech]

Granted, this is hairsplitting, but a lot of what we do in the way of experimentation is... for years I've run my .38 Special and .357 Magnum cast bullets through a SAECO .358" size die. Bullets are cast from wheelweight alloy and the as-cast .360" bullets come out of the sizing die at about .3575" or .3576". These bullets will snugly pass through chamber throats on some of my Colt and S&W revolvers, but for the cylinder throats on other Colt and S&W revolvers, the bullets are too large. I use the bullets anyway and loaded cartridges chamber fine. Accuracy is generally good with my handloads that approximate standard velocity factory ammo using the 160 grain H&G #51 SWC.

Lately, I've been experimenting with running the bullets through a .359" die; they come out of that one at .3585". Testing is not complete at this point, but preliminary results show a very slight accuracy improvement in comparison with the smaller diameter bullets. Anyone else using bullets slightly larger than .358"?

[Outpost75]

I have two older S&W revolvers which have HUGE cylinder throats which require. 360.-361" bullets.
I also have an old 3-screw Ruger which likes .360". In .38 Special with soft 8-10 BHN alloy and standard pressure loads, such as 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 150-160-grain bullet, a bit larger does no harm.

[Wally]

I also use a .359" sizer die for cast bullets in my .38 Spl & .357 Magnum pistols.

[mozeppa]

if yer clock chimes every half hour...and bongs every hour...don't fix it , cuz it ain't broke!

[FergusonTO35]

My shaky hands can't discern the accuracy difference between .357 and .358 in the .38 Special. .358 gives more consistent velocity so that's what I use. I size (or rather, just lube) boolits to .360 for my Marlin 1894C.

[tazman]

I use molds that drop anywhere from .358 to .360 and usually use them as cast in my 38 specials. They all chamber fine in my revolvers and I can see no real difference in accuracy.
The throats in my revolvers are all over the place as far as size but, in each revolver, the throats are all sized the same in that cylinder.

[avogunner]

Ok, this discussion raises a question about reloading dies. Do you guys have custom expanders to keep the ID of the .38spl case at a specific size (say for example using a .360 sized boolit)? If not, have you seen the case sizing/swaging the boolit down when you are loading?

[Sasquatch-1]

If the bullets are snug in the cylinder at 3575 why would you make them larger? Do the cylinder throats swage the bullets down when using the larger bullets? And, final question, have you slugged the barrel and do you have the results of that?



Granted, this is hairsplitting, but a lot of what we do in the way of experimentation is... for years I've run my .38 Special and .357 Magnum cast bullets through a SAECO .358" size die. Bullets are cast from wheelweight alloy and the as-cast .360" bullets come out of the sizing die at about .3575" or .3576". These bullets will snugly pass through chamber throats on some of my Colt and S&W revolvers, but for the cylinder throats on other Colt and S&W revolvers, the bullets are too large. I use the bullets anyway and loaded cartridges chamber fine. Accuracy is generally good with my handloads that approximate standard velocity factory ammo using the 160 grain H&G #51 SWC.

Lately, I've been experimenting with running the bullets through a .359" die; they come out of that one at .3585". Testing is not complete at this point, but preliminary results show a very slight accuracy improvement in comparison with the smaller diameter bullets. Anyone else using bullets slightly larger than .358"?

[bedbugbilly]

I have quite a few different molds for 38/357 and with the range lead I use, some drop at .358, others larger with .360 not uncommon. I started size them .358 when I got started reloading but then played with "as cast", etc. I will state that I tumble lube in alox/paste wax and am pretty much a "plinker", not a competitive shooter - and the many 38s and 357s I have shoot better than I am capable of . . . but I digress.

I played with sized and as cast - noticed a little bit better accuracy with shooting "as cast" which usually was around .359 - .360 area. I decided to buy a 2 cavity Lee mold for the 158 grain tumble lube semi wad cutter "just to see" how it did. I wanted to be able to get the traditional 358-311 to work well but when I started loading and shooting the tumble lubed Lee boolits, they just seemed to shoot the most accurately out of my Colt, Ubertis, Smiths and Ruger. My mold drops the tumble lube SWC at around .3595. Try as I might to get the more traditional boolits from my Ideal/Lyman molds to shoot equally as well, I still keep going back to the Lee 158 TL SWC. I guess the lesson for me was that "if it works and ain't broke, don't try and fix it". Now, for the shooting I do, I pretty much just stuff that Lee 158 TL SWC in my 38 brass as well as the small amount of 357 that I shoot and it seems to work the best in all of my revolvers - and much to my surprise, it's one of the best out of my 357 Handi Rifle as well. And, on the plus side, I no longer am spending time sizing for my 38/357 reloads.

[lotech]

Sasquatch- I have not slugged the bores. I'm beginning to wonder if the slight accuracy improvement I've noticed in using a .359" die might have something to do with less bullet distortion when sizing. Again, the difference isn't great and I could easily get by fine sizing everything in the smaller bullet size die.

I'm sixty-eight and the sight picture isn't as sharp for me as it once was. As a result, I have to fire many groups before I can comfortably make a valid assessment. I consider a two or two-and-a-half-inch benchrested group fired at twenty-five yards very good to excellent, but that may be a low standard of accuracy for others.

[tazman]

If the bullets are snug in the cylinder at 3575 why would you make them larger? Do the cylinder throats swage the bullets down when using the larger bullets?

Using larger boolits is more not wanting to have the extra step of running the boolits through a sizer if it makes no difference in accuracy(this assumes tumble lubing). The cylinder throats will swage down an oversize boolit as it passes through.

[lotech]

I run all bullets through a size die, at least for lubrication. I tried tumble lubing years ago and am not a fan of that process.

[tazman]

It doesn't work well for everyone. Lots of different ways to do things.

[Sasquatch-1]

If the cylinder throats swage the bullet down smaller then the bore this is where the problem could start. I think the simplest check for the OP would be to run a bullet through the smallest diameter cylinder chamber and then see how far it drops into the forcing cone. Not very scientific but what do you expect, I live in W. V.


The cylinder throats will swage down an oversize boolit as it passes through.

[tazman]

Yes, the throats need to be the right size in relation to the groove diameter of the barrel. If the cylinder throats are too small, you will have problems no matter what your boolit size.
In my case, the cylinder throats are .002 larger than my groove diameter. That is why it works for me.

[tazman]

Ok, this discussion raises a question about reloading dies. Do you guys have custom expanders to keep the ID of the .38spl case at a specific size (say for example using a .360 sized boolit)? If not, have you seen the case sizing/swaging the boolit down when you are loading?

I haven't had that problem in 38 Special. I use an alloy that is hard enough for that not to be a problem with 38 cases(water dropped range scrap with a small amount of lino added). I do have that problem with 9mm if I try to seat the boolits too deeply into the case.
Most 38 Special cases have thin enough walls that squeezing down the boolit bases isn't an issue. Under the proper circumstances(soft alloy, extra thick cases,etc) even 38 Special cases can swage boolit bases smaller.
The problem usually raises it head when loading wadcutters(which are longer boolits) deep enough into the case to crimp over the end of the boolit. Some brass just isn't set up for this process.

[lotech]

I've checked a number of times over the years and have never had a problem with .38 bullets being reduced in diameter after seating. In fact, I don't recall this ever happening with other cartridges either. I've used mostly Winchester brass for everything.

[tazman]

I've checked a number of times over the years and have never had a problem with .38 bullets being reduced in diameter after seating. In fact, I don't recall this ever happening with other cartridges either. I've used mostly Winchester brass for everything.

I was experimenting with heavy/longer boolits in 9mm when I ran into the problem. Specifically, the Lee 358-150-1R. This needed to be seated deeply enough that I couldn't find any brass that would not swage the base down a few thousandths.
I switched to a boolit design from NOE that cured the problem by having a longer nose and not needing to be seated as deeply into the case.

[charlie b]

I never sized pistol bullets. I pan lubed them cookie cutter style. A little messy but it worked well for me.

Accuracy was more about the load and the gun for me. My Python liked heavy charges and 140gn or heavier bullets. FIL had a Uberti .357 SA that liked light charges and 125gn bullets. His Marlin rifle liked heavy bullets but lower charges.

Our 1911 pistols all liked near factory velocities and 200 or 230 gn bullets. If the bullet fed cleanly it shot well.

[FergusonTO35]

Pan lubing works great, if you don't really cast that much it's a good option. I got a lube sizer because of all the extra time I was spending removing stray lube from boolits and dies. I would love to see Lee's take on a lube sizer machine. I bet they could create one that mounts on your press and costs half as much as the others. I've had plans rolling around in my head for such a machine for a few years now.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

My shaky hands can't discern the accuracy difference between .357 and .358 in the .38 Special. .358 gives more consistent velocity so that's what I use. I size (or rather, just lube) boolits to .360 for my Marlin 1894C.
I've gone into all the local gunshops asking if they had a gun that didn't shake when I held it.

[tazman]

I've gone into all the local gunshops asking if they had a gun that didn't shake when I held it.

Dog gonnit. Now I have to go get a towel and clean the spit off my keyboard.
I haven't heard that one before.

[USSR]

Ok, this discussion raises a question about reloading dies. Do you guys have custom expanders to keep the ID of the .38spl case at a specific size (say for example using a .360 sized boolit)?

I had a custom expander made to size to .3575", not for .360" bullets, but rather to be able to load .358" swaged lead HBWC's with minimal tension so as not to reduce their diameter further.

Don

[tazman]

I had a custom expander made to size to .3575", not for .360" bullets, but rather to be able to load .358" swaged lead HBWC's with minimal tension so as not to reduce their diameter further.

Don

That is needed for those boolits since they are really soft. If you can find some wadcutter brass, that will help as well.

[Outpost75]

A .38 S&W (not Special) expander plug would generally be .358" or 0.002" under bullet diameter, in normal practice.

[sniper]

Interesting thread!
My facts are: I have cylinder mouths that run from .3572-.3577. I had my bore slugged and measured, and it is .3567. The person that measured my barrel slug recommended .358 sized boolits.
357 "J" woid boolits go through my cylinder mouths with just a gentle push. The fellow recommends .358 boolits. I don't cast any more, so, what size should I order, .357 or .358, or doesn't it matter a whole lot?

[DougGuy]

First off, all it does when you size larger than the throats is raise pressures. There is no gain from doing this since the boolit will exit the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. If you are sizing .358" and firing through a cylinder that has .357x" throats, your cylinder is nothing but a multi-port sizing die and the boolit will exit the throat at the same diameter as the throat when it passes through it.

Some guns will be more accurate by doing this because it distorts the boolits enough to lengthen the bearing surfaces by compressing the crimp and lube grooves somewhat, but most will not show improvement from sizing larger than cylinder throats.

In a *perfect* world, there are two schools that will help a revolver be accurate. The dimensions of a revolver read much like those of a common kitchen funnel, that is every step the boolit travels through on it's path to the muzzle gets progressively smaller so it keeps swaging and squeezing the boolit and it retains a good seal in the bore in this manner. Larger dimensions in the back by the breech, smaller as it goes to the muzzle. No tight cylinder throats, no thread constriction where the barrel meets the frame, no raised ridges in the bore behind the roll markings on the outside of the barrel.

The other school is that the boolit needs to be .001" to .002" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel, and cylinder throats need to be .0005" to .001" larger than the boolit. This is the best arrangement for cast boolits.

Also, the most important thing about the cylinder throats besides the fact that they need to be larger than groove diameter, is that they are all even in size to each other. You can always size to fit the throats, but uneven throats cause variations in pressure which causes the gun to recoil differently in the shooter's hands from shot to shot, and it will consequently shoot to a different point of impact from shot to shot.

Leading will be much less noticeable or none at all when the revolver's cylinder throats, boolit diameter, and groove diameter are all properly established and if need be, corrected. Accuracy will improve immediately from having cylinder throats all even and all sized as I described earlier.

[GWM]

My old Colt has a .354 barrel and .359 throats. The chambers will take a maximum of .358 sized boolits. Other than that the forcing cone is very tight and will fill up with lead in no time with large sized boolits.

So I size to .355 and that makes me use a .223 rifle sizer die and an undersized expander for the brass to grip the boolit.

Now I guess the gun was probably made for factory HBWC ammo, but I don't have that. I did get a HBWC mold but haven't manager to make good enough boolits with it yet.

Is there anyone else still using a Colt Officers Match .38 revolver?

[lotech]

I have an Officers Model Match from the late '60s. It shoots its very best when I use .357" bullets, but I'm no longer going to size bullets for individual revolvers. It shoots almost as well with a .358". However, my Trooper .357 from the same era is considerably more accurate with a .358" bullet than a .357.

I guess I've wound up with too many .38 and .357 revolvers. From a practical standpoint, one shouldn't have to use more than one diameter for .38 caliber bullets.

[Outpost75]

I believe that the key to flexible performance over a variety of .38 Special revolvers of different sizes is to stick to SOFT bullets and MILD, standard-pressure loads and .358" bullets. These will fit the great majority of .38 Special revolvers, but 8-10 BHN alloy loaded with a fast-burning powder such as Bullseye or TiteGroup will upset fairly well to fit chamber throats which are only slighty oversized.

Sticking to mild, standard pressure loads also tends to mitigate against pressure spikes caused by trying to size down an oversized, too hard bullet by slamming it through too tight cylinder throats.

Seems like when we go back to the way the cartridge was ORIGINALLY LOADED, not +P, +P+ or Bubba Wannabe Magnums, that it all works out right. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye cast 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead with 150-160-grain flatnosed lead is pretty hard to beat as a one-size-fits-most load.

[lotech]

Outpost - I agree. I often use the H&G #51 160 SWC, not because it's the utmost in accurate bullets, but because I have a 4-cavity mould. 3.5 BE or 4.3 231 work about equally well; velocities and accuracy are comparable.

[rintinglen]

I have an Officers Model Match from the late '60s. It shoots its very best when I use .357" bullets, but I'm no longer going to size bullets for individual revolvers. It shoots almost as well with a .358". However, my Trooper .357 from the same era is considerably more accurate with a .358" bullet than a .357.

I guess I've wound up with too many .38 and .357 revolvers. From a practical standpoint, one shouldn't have to use more than one diameter for .38 caliber bullets.

Heresy, rank Heresy. Too much is never enough, when it comes to 38's.
Back on topic. I hold with those who hold with chamber throat as the critical dimension. However, a soft HBWC will likely give good accuracy in just about any quality 38.

[TexasGrunt]

I don't have a Colt Officer's Match but I do have a Colt Officer's Special.

It's a 1951 revolver and I shoot it often. I love shooting that gun. It's been modified to SAO, has a trigger shoe and an action job that makes grown men weak in the knees. It shoots like a laser. I mainly shoot wadcutters through it, occasionally a SWC. I don't hot rod it at all. I size everything to .358 and have no problems at all. I use 50/50 COWW/Pure.

One of these days I'd like to find a companion to it, one made in 1960, that's the year I was born. I'd take just about any nice .38 revolver.

[tazman]

Outpost75-----A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye cast 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead with 150-160-grain flatnosed lead is pretty hard to beat as a one-size-fits-most load.

I agree with that. That load is my standard go to for everything 38 special.
I have other loads I play with and shoot a lot, but that one always seems to work well.

[robertbank]

Man reading some of these threads regarding the 38 spl could make a grown man weep. I picked up a Model 10 5" last summer and eliminated one line on my lifetime bucket list. Not sure why it took to darn long. The cylinders are now all an even .358 and that is what I size to.

My nephew gave me a half dozen boxes of wadcutter ammo marked RCMP from one of his detachments to burn off. They just make for a fun afternoon of plinking. The rounds have to be from the 70's because the RCMP left the revolvers behind years ago.

I have a 158 gr RCBS RN that drops bullets .359/.360 and they shoot like lasers through my Model 10 and my Ruger GP-100. 2.8 gr of Clays works wonders for IDPA SSR Division.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

I believe the RCMP was buying revolvers into the mid-1980s, at least when I went through the Ruger armorer's school in 1985 they were producing a batch of 5-inch fixed sight Service Sixes, mostly in matted blue finish with lanyard loop, and a smaller number of the same gun in stainless. While these might have been for a municipal police order, the Canadian government had sent two inspectors who were RCMP out of Regina, Sask. to supervise and act as their QARs on the order, which was for several thousand revolvers, IIRC.

[robertbank]

They retain a substantial number of them in Regina to this day. Our local Dog Man was given one for training purposes. It was brand new when I got to shoot it. Just a beautiful firearm. You gotta ask. "...and what was it used for Bob"? He spent three weeks running around the roads near Terrace throwing the gun into gravel ditches. The dog would be released and have to find the gun. You should have seen the gun three weeks later. Chewed up all to pieces.

You are right on the dates of course. The Model 10 is a true classic and is just a wonderful gun to shoot. I would not be surprised if the Queens Cowboys end up getting the M&P 9MM Gen 2 guns if the Liberals get their hands out of the taxpayers pockets long enough to actually do something good with our money but that is another issue for another day. I think S&W will do everything they can to retain the RCMP contract. They have been suppliers of handguns to the Mounties almost from the beginning. One of their S&W 45 Colt revolvers was on sale on one of our gun forums for around $1KCdn. It was tempting but she who knows best would likely have used it on me.[smilie=f:

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

What we were told at the time was that the revolvers headed to Nova Scotia, Labrador, PEI and part of the BC allotment were stainless and the others were blued. IIRC the stainless guns were all .38 Specials, and the blued guns .357, but my memory may have confused the particulars.

This was at the very end of the Service Six run before the tooling and fixtures were crated and sent to Manhurin in France. The order included all the necessary repair tools, fixtures, armorer training and parts to service and maintain the guns for 25 years, including a number of replacement barrels and cylinders in both calibers, as well as a quantity of 9mm cylinders.

I fully expect that they will be heaving those training guns in ditches for many years and they will still work.

[robertbank]

I would think they were all Model 10 38spl. To my knowledge the RCMP never carried .357Mag or 9MM revolvers. Today they soldier on with the 5946 semis while some of the ERT team members get DAO SIG 226's. The former are stainless models. You will see them down your way whenever they get replaced.

Take Care

Bob

[Outpost75]

Too long ago to remember details. They were running .357s at the time for US Customs, but I remember that the 5-inch fixed sight were not catalogued and therefore unusual.

[robertbank]

I got one of the 686 US Custom guns. I know of three up here. They all have barrels greater than 105MM, although listed as four inch barrels ala 102MM. We are restricted to handguns >105MM or approx. 4.2". My 686 CS marked gun is 105.14MM long and registered as such. I prefer my Ruger GP100 4.2" for IDPA but I have the 686 as a back up. God Bless generous tooling back in the day. One of my boys will get it as it is the shortest barreled gun he will ever be able to own thanks to the XXXXLineral Gov't we elect every other decade or two.

Take Care

Bob