Glock 23 shooting low with WST

[superior]

Hi guys, long time no post.. I usually load with Bullseye for the 23, but all I would find in my area was WST. My boolit is the Lee 401-175-TC. After some snooping around, I decided to use 4.7 grains.. At at 15 yards, the gun shoots 6" low. Ok, so I shouldn't have made 50 rounds of that load. The wife and I shot about 20 rounds with the same result. So I did some reading up and bottom line, I'm not sure whether to increase or reduce the charge to bring the groups up with this powder. Can anyone help? The 4.7gr load seems mild, pleasant and doesn't throw the cases as far as 180gr factory loads. The powder burns clean, and oddly enough, smells like black pepper. It's a bulkier powder and fills the case better than BE. It made tight little clusters as well. I'd really like to continue using WST. It seems to work well in my wife's Ruger LC9. The question is, higher or lower charge? Thanks

[44MAG#1]

Maybe i am simple minded but I would measure the height of the rear sight and if it is not the tallest one Glock offers I would get the next highest or the next two highest and try them. I think 3 bucks apiece.

[35remington]

Agree that sight change likely will work better than load change. Sights should be regulated for that weight already. If they are not I suspect the sights.

[superior]

Thanks guys...i bought the gun new in'92 and it's shot perfectly with hs-6 and BE. I'm stumped as to why this powder shoots this much differently.. after all, wst should be between the two on the burn rate charts.. I was hoping to avoid a sight change, simply because I never looked into how it's done. I became confused recently with ballistic theory regarding the effects of bullet weight vs velocity vs recoil force.. Every article I read, including Chuck Hawks left more questions than answers.. That being said, I'll load 5 more rounds, reducing the charge and fire for effect... If they shoot even lower, I'll try increasing it.. I should still have room for more than I'm using now... If the sights are easily changeable, I might get more sights also.. OR, hold out for different powder to become available. The wife's 9mm shoots great with wst, and I'll try it in some of my other guns.. Now, to look into the possibility of a rear sight change.. I appreciate the feedback..I was thinking that not too many people want to touch the topic of Glock / cast boolits with a ten foot pole. I've been shooting cast ammo through it since it was new.. Thanks again

[HATCH]

You need to get a chrony
if it's shooting low but grouping well then the issue is velocity
keep in mind this is provided your using the same weight boolit for your test.

[superior]

Hatch, will higher velocity make it shoot higher? or lower? :killingpc I use only one cast boolit.

[FergusonTO35]

Burn rate isn't always a good predictor of how a powder will behave. For example, Bullseye, IMR Target, and Titegroup are nearly identical in terms of burn rate. However, I find Bullseye definitely behaves like a faster powder than the other two in .38 Special and .380 Auto. IMR Target is supposed to be a Bullseye alternative but honestly the stuff reminds me more of HP-38, the charges are closer to the latter in fact.

[WebMonkey]

Since your poa is the same, increase velocity to bring poi up.
Good luck
'Monkey

[clum553946]

Amazon sells oem Glock adjustable rear sights for a little over 20 bucks

[44MAG#1]

The OEM adjustable rear sight on Glocks site is 15 bucks and comes with the adjustment tool.
The one that came on my M41 had quite a bit of slop in it. I didn't like that.
But to each his own. I would get the Dawson Precision set 310-096 if I were to get adjustable sights at 104 bucks plus shipping. Plain black.
But again, to each his own.
By my calculation you will need a rear sight that is .067" taller to just zero the gun.
You aren't shooting from a rest are you?
The front sights from Glock are 2 bucks and comes with the screw in case as a temporary fix you decide to file the front down.
From the shortest to the tallest Glock rear sight there is only .047" difference. That would get you 4.25 inches higher if your gun has the shortest sight.
Something doesn't make sense to me. Where do factory loads hit on target?

[jcren]

In my experience, it depends. Usually in a handgun, lower velocity means the bullet is in the barrel longer and the gun recoil up more before the bullet leaves the barrel, therefore, raising poi. However, extra light loads will go the other way due to the shooter being less affected by the lighter recoil. Hot loads will sometimes raise the poi as the recoil increases. It is a function of where the bullet is during the recoil pulse.
For instance, in my 1911, unique shoots about on at 5.7 grains, and the poi drops slightly with each step till about 6.9, but then starts coming back up and shoots to the sights again at 7.2

[DougGuy]

Since your poa is the same, increase velocity to bring poi up.
Good luck
'Monkey

It would seem like this would work but it works opposite. Dwell time in the barrel of a handgun determines vertical point of impact. Heavier boolits recoil more and will shoot higher, slower boolits have more dwell time and will shoot higher, generally increasing velocity causes the boolit to exit the muzzle at a lower point of the recoil arc causing the group to strike the target low, and decreasing velocity allows the boolit to exit the muzzle at a higher point in the recoil arc causing the group to strike the target at a higher point of impact..

[NSB]

If you were to chronograph your new load, you'd find it's faster than what you were shooting (assuming you only changed powder, not bullets as well). You need to reduce your powder charge to raise your point of impact. I've been shooting handguns for around fifty years and I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in practice and competition. I'm not guessing about this: faster loads shoot lower with the same bullet, and slower loads shoot higher with the same bullet. A couple of responses were spot on with this advice and one was completely incorrect. Your new powder is giving you more velocity and the bullet is leaving the barrel sooner than the load you were using with Bullseye.

[str8wal]

You need to get a chrony

What he said ^^^

[WebMonkey]

It would seem like this would work but it works opposite. Dwell time in the barrel of a handgun determines vertical point of impact. Heavier boolits recoil more and will shoot higher, slower boolits have more dwell time and will shoot higher, generally increasing velocity causes the boolit to exit the muzzle at a lower point of the recoil arc causing the group to strike the target low, and decreasing velocity allows the boolit to exit the muzzle at a higher point in the recoil arc causing the group to strike the target at a higher point of impact..

gotcha, the poa has been 'altered' before the projectile leaves the barrel.
please forgive me and pretend my blackhawk is strapped to a steel pier or concrete dragon's tooth when i shoot.
;)

'monkey

[superior]

If you were to chronograph your new load, you'd find it's faster than what you were shooting (assuming you only changed powder, not bullets as well). You need to reduce your powder charge to raise your point of impact. I've been shooting handguns for around fifty years and I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in practice and competition. I'm not guessing about this: faster loads shoot lower with the same bullet, and slower loads shoot higher with the same bullet. A couple of responses were spot on with this advice and one was completely incorrect. Your new powder is giving you more velocity and the bullet is leaving the barrel sooner than the load you were using with Bullseye.

that makes sense, until i read about recoil force (which increases with velocity/pressure) .. in any case, my intuition leads me to reduce powder charge, like you suggest, and see what happens..

[35remington]

Actually, if you read General Hatcher, velocity has little effect on significant POI change. Slow bullets stay in the barrel longer.....but it does not rise as far in recoil. Fast bullets cause more barrel rise but leave sooner.

Amongst recognized sources, the effect is known to cancel out with increases or decreases in speed. My results agree. Want point of impact to change substantially? Change bullet weight or change sights. Don't pin much hope on velocity.

Try and confirm. Claiming velocity greatly affects point of impact recognizes barrel time but neglects to account for differences in recoil during bullet transit.

[NSB]

Actually, if you read General Hatcher, velocity has little effect on significant POI change. Slow bullets stay in the barrel longer.....but it does not rise as far in recoil. Fast bullets cause more barrel rise but leave sooner.

Amongst recognized sources, the effect is known to cancel out with increases or decreases in speed. My results agree. Want point of impact to change substantially? Change bullet weight or change sights. Don't pin much hope on velocity.

Try and confirm. Claiming velocity greatly affects point of impact recognizes barrel time but neglects to account for differences in recoil during bullet transit.
I recently purchased a Ruger SP101 with fixed sights. In order to get it to hit POA, I had to "play" around with the loads I tried until I got one to hit where I was aiming. I'm not going to argue with General Hatcher, or you, but after shooting handguns extensivily for fifty years both in competition and for hunting, I can assure you that different loads can make significant differences in point of impact. I also know several shooters who are top competitors and and they can attest to the same thing. I kept extensive notes on loads tried in the Ruger SP101, and it's quite enlightening how much different loads can effect impact. I've done this with many guns over the years. Most experienced handgun shooters will concur with my observations. I've been a very successful competitor for many years and I'm really not guessing about this. If in doubt, put a very heavy bullet 38spl load in something like the Ruger with a light powder charge and then put a very hot 125g 357mag load in and see the difference...... huge difference in POA. Sorry General, but that's the way it is.

[35remington]

Sorry....but you mentioned a light bullet and a heavy bullet. Which proves my point. Reread what I said, please.

Bullet weight accounts for it. With same weight bullets the effect is very much less.....as you just confirmed.

Life may have taught you lessons, but you may have not been paying attention. Your last paragraph supports my point more than refutes it.

Please remind yourself the OP is keeping bullet weight the SAME, and increasing or decreasing speed only. Thus barrel rise is counteracted by barrel time.

The General was quite right. As he usually was.

When fixed sight guns are regulated, it is for a particular bullet weight, and such sights are so regulated over the range an autoloader will cycle. My 1911's and fixed sight autoloaders and revolvers say so.

You are taking issue with something I did not claim. I have been doing this awhile myself.

[NSB]

Actually, muzzle velocity will make the POI change quite a bit. A good example of this is using different height front sights on a fixed rear sight handgun. Changing loads (powder charges only, not bullet weight) will make significant differences in POI. The Ruger I referenced will demonstrate significantly different POI simply by changing different powders which change MV with the same bullet. Again, this is EASY to demonstrate for anyone. Simply load two loads up with the same bullet and then create as much difference in MV as you can by using the slowest load possible and then the fastest. Just get your Lyman book out and find out which is the fastest and which is the slowest. Again, you can use a very slow 38spl load and a very fast 357mag load using the same bullet. No keyboard expertise here, just demonstratable facts anyone can try.

[35remington]

Within the range of possible velocities obtainable with this 40 pistol, changing velocity will make little difference in point of impact as long as bullet weight stays the same. Said by a guy who has this same caliber in this same pistol and has done exactly that.

This is the most relevant possible advice given here.

See my very clear explanation as to why this is so. Barrel time counteracts muzzle rise.

[35remington]

Let me ask the OP a more relevant question.....when you say the gun hit low, were you shooting offhand or over sandbags? Was something about how you were shooting different than what you normally do? Shooting from a different position will change the point of impact as a rested shot may see the handgun bumping or striking the rest upon recoil and will change point of impact.

[superior]

Let me ask the OP a more relevant question.....when you say the gun hit low, were you shooting offhand or over sandbags? Was something about how you were shooting different than what you normally do? Shooting from a different position will change the point of impact as a rested shot may see the handgun bumping or striking the rest upon recoil and will change point of impact.
i was shooting off hand at 15 yards, as i always do..my wife had the same results... i've never encountered this until switching to WST..

[35remington]

I would wonder if something else is not going on. Flinch, etc. Once Glocks are sighted as they are, which is with 180's, I cannot think of something that would cause a point of impact deviation that did not involve you in some way. Or perhaps something changing with the sighting equipment or how the gun is allowed to recoil in the hand.

As you mentioned, bullet weight is very similar to what the gun is sighted for. And from what I know of WST, your velocities should not be greatly different enough from factory with the charge mentioned to enter into it.

You are are one of the few other people that has mentioned the peppery smell of WST besides myself as I have noticed it as well.

Perhaps another range session is in order. I am suspicious of examples of one. Repeat checking would give more assurance that it is not something else.

Don't give up yet. Keep trying other things......don't let me discourage you there. I am just trying to get you to temper your expectations of what is possible by pointing out the physical realities of how the pistol functions when the same bullet weight is sped up or slowed down a bit. Given the range of expected velocities possible, which is in the 800-950 fps range, a pistol with fixed sights such as a Glock really changes its point of impact most notably when changing bullet weight.

One consolation is that if the gun universally hits low and this is proven beyond all doubt with multiple range sessions eliminating all variables, it is easily zeroed by changing rear sights or taking a very little off the front sight. Your call.....but be sure before doing anything to the gun.

Measure twice, cut once.

[superior]

I still have about 30 rounds of the offending load ,and I'll make up 5 more with reduced charges, and 5 that are warmer... I'll be able to pop them off tomorrow, and report back. I'm extremely comfortable shooting this pistol and with this load, it seems more mild than 180 factory stuff. The answers I'm getting seem to verify the uncertainty of the outcome tomorrow.. It seems there are several factors at work here... (dwell time, powder weight, unlocking mechanism, recoil force, pressure spike differences, pressure/velocity) The only constant is the gun,boolit, and the way I shoot it.
Thanks for the replies, all

[35remington]

Until it is reshot to verify, the constants may have been less than constant. Maybe.

[superior]

If you were to chronograph your new load, you'd find it's faster than what you were shooting (assuming you only changed powder, not bullets as well). You need to reduce your powder charge to raise your point of impact. I've been shooting handguns for around fifty years and I've shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in practice and competition. I'm not guessing about this: faster loads shoot lower with the same bullet, and slower loads shoot higher with the same bullet. A couple of responses were spot on with this advice and one was completely incorrect. Your new powder is giving you more velocity and the bullet is leaving the barrel sooner than the load you were using with Bullseye.
NSB you were correct..as you may recall, the offending load was 4.7 grains WST. i loaded 5 rounds with 5.0 grains and 5 with 4.4 . I shot the lighter loads first..they tightly clustered 1 1/2 " OVER the poa !! i fired the hotter 5.0 grains and they struck 4 inches lower than 4.7. what a difference! thanks all for the input. i love this new powder now.. they say that powders of similar burn rate can behave differently and now I see what they mean..

[superior]

You need to get a chrony
if it's shooting low but grouping well then the issue is velocity
keep in mind this is provided your using the same weight boolit for your test.

Hatch.. you also hit the nail on the head..Thank You i didn't want to do a sight change. moral of the story here...if you own a glock 23 and you use the same components as i did, you will most likely get similar results.. WST is now the powder of choice for me in 40sw. It's performance characteristics yield a high velocity with a small puffy charge.

[garym1a2]

Wst works really good in 40's with light loads. I ran 3.8gr and a 175gr bullet in my G22 and latter G35 as my USPA action load. It was a very soft load at minor power factor loads.Makes it easy to get on target fast.

[HATCH]

Hatch.. you also hit the nail on the head..Thank You i didn't want to do a sight change. moral of the story here...if you own a glock 23 and you use the same components as i did, you will most likely get similar results.. WST is now the powder of choice for me in 40sw. It's performance characteristics yield a high velocity with a small puffy charge.

I own two Glock 23s and two Glock 22s.
My brothers each own a 23 and one also owns a 22.
I been down your road before.
I use 5.2 grains unique with a 172 grain lead hp.
It is smokey but POI matches factory 180s and it matches factory height sights.

You really do need to invest in a chronograph.
I use one every time that I am working up a new caliber/powder/load
It allows you to know exactly what your doing without guessing.

Decades ago when I was just a kid I would load whatever the hornady book said was the middle of the powder range. I was happy with it because at the time I couldn't hit the same hole twice no matter how hard I tried or how many shots I fired.
To me it was just cheap shooting.
Now that I am older I prefer to make my shots count and I can put them in the same hole from time to time.


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[35remington]

Superior, that is great, but I will still have to maintain that something else is going on. Having about a 100-120 fps velocity change make about a one foot change in point of impact at 15 yards (4.4 to 5.0) makes no sense. If velocity is the same as factory loads point of impact should be the same as well.

That was and is my findings and I never was able to move point of impact greatly in changing powder charges with my 23. Nevertheless, glad something worked.

What is is hard to explain is why things are happening as they are. Bear with me a bit and read the following.

Think about this for a minute......5.0 WST and a cast 175 most closely approximates factory velocity at around 950 fps and should hit about where factory loads of the same weight do (or at least closest to their point of impact compared to other loads) as barrel time and recoil are about the same, yet it hits way low for you. Something don't add up. The closer you get to factory load velocity, the further away you hit. The opposite should be true. Barrel time don't seem to be explaining this one.

Further, it was earlier posited and explained that your 4.7 grain loads hit lower than factory because they were thought to be much faster, when from chronographing I know 4.7 WST is a bit slower than factory loads, and by this logic should hit higher. You yourself said 4.7 grains seemed lighter than factory loads. By the logic of what was claimed earlier, should not lower velocity loads hit higher instead of lower?

What this adds up to is something else appears to be going on to change point of impac from a direction other than expected. Why do faster handloads approximating factory speeds shoot further away from factory load point of impact rather than closer?

If you want to resolve whether it be the load or the bullet, ensure that speed is the same by checking how fast 5.0 WST is going versus factory loads by chronographing. If f point of impact is greatly different while speed is the same, we all have a lot more postulating to do over why this is occurring.

[superior]

@35 remington I wan't aware how much different the barrel angle in relation to the target could be with a given velocity change, but I'm convinced that what Hatch and NSB said appears to be all too true.. The difference in the loads made a major,major difference. I cant dispute what i see..I would suspect that a difference in pressure spike location in the barrell, as well as other aspects of physics which are beyond my ordinary enthusiast mentality, can and will affect tragectory as much as the final muzzle velocity... in fact , this, i think, is what is meant by powders of similar burn rates "behaving differently". The pistol still shoots to the same poa with my traditional loadings.. in any case, sir , I appreciate the interest you took in helping me.
Thanks

[35remington]

You are welcome, for whatever it was worth.

You'll have to forgive me for seeing the velocity explanation as less than persuasive proof as to what is going on with your results. By the arguments all are making here, velocity equivalent to factory loads should hit equivalently with the same bullet weight, yet you claim to see something different happening.

The closer you got to factory load speed, the further away you hit. Nobody here claimed that that result would occur. You have to wonder about that, and I do.

A good follow up would be to try a commercial (Hornady, etc.) jacketed bullet of the same weight at the same velocity, and see what happens. When something happens differently than everyone predicts I myself like to find the cause.

In any event, glad it is working out somehow.

[superior]

[QUOTE=35remington;4044847]You are welcome, for whatever it was worth.

You'll have to forgive me for seeing the velocity explanation as less than persuasive proof as to what is going on with your results. By the arguments all are making here, velocity equivalent to factory loads should hit equivalently with the same bullet weight, yet you claim to see something different happening.

The closer you got to factory load speed, the further away you hit. Nobody here claimed that that result would occur. You have to wonder about that, and I do.

A good follow up would be to try a commercial (Hornady, etc.) jacketed bullet of the same weight at the same velocity, and see what happens. When something happens differently than everyone predicts I myself like to find the cause.

In any event, glad it is working out somehow.[/Q
It seems that the biggest unknown,due to lack of a chrony ,is the velocity of the 4.7 load.. it's common knowledge that given the same pressure,a cast boolit will have higher velocity than a jword will.
Another factor is how a shot's recoil pulse feels ..I suppose it's possible for a shot to feel more powerful and yet, have a lower velocity.. Those two factors, I'm sure help add to the puzzle.. Nobody here was completely incorrect... We still don't know how close the velocity was in relation to the standard load...but after seeing these results, I must concur it was substantially higher.. Perhaps someone with a chrono may be able to provide a more understandable explanation through verification.

[35remington]

Having it substantially higher, or even higher, is very doubtful. I've chronoed WST at very near that load level and online data also suggests what I know.....you ain't running faster than a factory load. Factory loads should be in the mid to upper 900's at a minimum from a four inch or longer barrel. Your own impression of lower recoil confirms it. In any event, load data sources will not post info that allows such a large velocity increase that explains such large point of impact deviation.

Since recoil is pretty much bullet weight times velocity, having a shot feel weaker in recoil yet go lots faster pretty much doesn't make sense either. I do agree you should chrono this and resolve why all the advice you are getting does not match the results you are getting. I would chrono 4.4, 4.7, and 5 to see what you get.

[HATCH]

I agree.
You should be in the 950 fps - 1000 fps range using a 180 grain bullet.
Doesn't matter if it's jhp,fmj, lead, or whatever.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170513/57d5fd6f9e0b30aa8e65fc996f49d5f4.jpg

If you look at the above chart.
Depending on your distance to target, it is possible for a slower velocity round to hit higher then a higher velocity round.
Trajectories are a curve.
The bullet will rise slightly then start dropping.

Until you measure the velocity of your loads, Your just shooting in the dark here.



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[charlie b]

So, I don't believe everything I read, but, I do have one glaring example.

.357Mag, 4" barrel. Shoots to POA with 125gn hot loads. When I put 125gn .38spl loads in it the POI is very low.

My .45 is backwards from that. Hot 185gn loads shoot lower than low vel 185gn loads.

[35remington]

Charlie, your results and the OP's result are exactly why we are having a hard time explaining those results compared to what is "supposed" to happen, which is why we are asking for velocity information. Even if we get it, I suspect something unexplainable will still be present.

As to why your slower 125's hit way low and the fast 125's hit on, I would say nobody here would have the faintest idea unless it had something to do with the gun or how it is held. The situation is much like the OP's, where loads no faster than factory loads, if even as fast, hit a lot lower. By all estimations here that should not be happening. All we can do is make guesses of the probable outcome and let the actual results fall where they may.

As I said, the important thing is that something is hitting where it is supposed to. The puzzle is why things are contradictory.

[HATCH]

As to why your slower 125's hit way low and the fast 125's hit on, I would say nobody here would have the faintest idea .


It's velocity.

Remember the curve as shown above.

Here is the exact chart that will explain it a little better.
This chart shows two 125 grain magtech fmj projectiles. One at 38sp velocities and one at 357 mag velocities
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170513/d0193993b975f9304ba61e7f188aea5f.jpg

As you can see the curve is different yet the only change was the velocity of the projectile.



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[35remington]

Sorry, Hatch, but velocity don't explain it. In one instance the low velocity load hits low, in the other the low velocity load hits high when you read his post about the 125 in 38/357 and the 185 in .45. In each instance the bullet weight is the same. This runs contrary to any possible explanation because the results are contrary to expectation no matter your explanation. Velocity as an explanation cannot account for both of the scenarios mentioned, nor the OP's results, which leaves you just as much in the dark as the rest of us.

Enjoy the company! This entire thread has been unable to explain the observed results in any way, and you're firmly a member of the "failure" group, as am I and everybody else. That is why we are asking for more information, but somehow I think it ain't gonna help unless we know more than we do even then.

[HATCH]

I load 90% pistol and 10% rifles

My load testing is this
Shoot 10 rounds factory for a base line.
These rounds are the same weight as the rounds I want to load or close as I can get them.
I then load up at 2/10th increments starting at the minimum listed load to the max listed load.
10 rounds each load.
Everything gets shot across the chrony.

Once I get a load that closely matches the factory velocity and has the lowest standard deviation then I shoot for accuracy.

I have always been spot on.

I can not explain why someone can shoot a 185 45 cap and the higher velocity hits lower then the lower velocity.


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[35remington]

I can't explain how point of impact can go one way in one instance, and the other way in the other instance.....so join the club! Everything going on here is contradictory to what everyone is saying.....no matter what you say or believe!

[Geezer in NH]

Easy fix. Go back to the original powder you were loading or get different sights.

[superior]

Easy fix. Go back to the original powder you were loading or get different sights.

Why would I do that ? , I've already fixed the problem by reducing the charge, thanks to very good advice I received here on this forum.

[Hamish]

I can not explain why someone can shoot a 185 45 cap and the higher velocity hits lower then the lower velocity.

I've seen it explained as the bullet exiting the barrel sooner during muzzle rise than a lower velocity load. ie, a slower load will hit higher.