PP nose Q's/design Q?

[wonderwolf]

I'm saving my pennies for one of Red River Ricks molds. He has sent me several pictures of examples he has done for some people on these boards. I sent him a sharps design I found online from awhile back and he sent me a modified gibbs design that really peaked my interest. The design he had utilized a longer nose (.760 as compared to the sharps .650") which should result in a higher BC if I'm not mistaken. The Rapine PP mold I'm using now (501gr) has a nose length of around .350 which so far has served well at 200 yards but I crave an adjustable mold with a longer nose.

So whats the "specifics" for postells, gibbs and sharps nose lengths. What profile determines its this design or that? I know the mold I get from him will be a FN and if I'm not mistaken the postell has a round nose?

This is for a 45-70 sharps by the way.

[EDK]

Powderburnerr sold me one of Rick's moulds for my 50/90 while I was at the Quigley shoot....a copy of the original Sharps design. I cast up a bunch, but screwed up and cast them out of wheel weight equivalent. Size went from .494, per Rick, to .497. I'm going to try and get some loading and shooting in this week end, but it's 90+ and humidity to match (I'm 5 miles from the Mississippi river!) They sure came out nice and I got good ones pretty quickly...none of the horror stories I'd heard about cup base/hollow base moulds! They came out better a lot quicker than I could have hoped.

Not to volunteer someone else. you might try contacting Orville at the Shiloh web site...He has some original/replica moulds and loading tools...and does an enormous amount of experimenting...and more than willing to share data and show you his toys. Meeting him was another reason to go to Quigley.

With an adjustable mould, it has to be be nose pour and a flat nose. Rick's work is outstanding...machine work is equal or better than everything I've owned, from LEEs to HENSLEY & GIBBS to my STEVE BROOKS for the 50.

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

[BrentD]

What are you going to do with the bullet? Kill targets or game? How far and how big? Until you know those parameters, nothing can be ruled in or out.

Sharps made lots of different nose shapes for lots of different purposes.

Brent

[carpetman]

wonderwolf---I'm not going to get involved in picking your nose---you'll have to do that yourself.

[wonderwolf]

tehe, well the way I look at target bullets vs hunting bullets is this. 1st -I don't hunt anything big enough to need a special bullet design just for hunting 2nd. you hafta hit your target first in order to kill it and I do alot of mid range groundhog hunting with .223 target bullets. IMHO a target bullet will work just as well on elk as it will on the 1000 yard range.

Though today's hunting bullets and target bullets are growing closer and closer together in likenesses.

Simply put A target paper patch bullet is what I'm after. The sharps is a silhouette model but I would not hesitate to take it out hunting. even though it weighs 13 pounds.

Edit, I Thought about what I just wrote and I'm not saying that hunting bullets compared to target bullets are inaccurate its just for the amount of hunting I would be doing I would prefer to be more familiar with a accurate bullet than with hunting bullet I don't shoot much with because it is not cut for the task of precision shooting. The only exception I have of this is with my .458 Win Mag.....I still have tons of factory loaded 510gr soft nose I use if I can sneak up on groundhogs close enough :)

[BrentD]

Wonderwolf, I could not disagree with you more. I would never use a long range target bullet on an elk. At the range that you will be gunning elk, bullets designed soley for accuracy will be no better than a hunting bullet. I would recommend a flat nosed, or very blunt round nosed bullet. A Sharps long range bullet would be, in my opinion, very ill advised.

Brent

[Don McDowell]

I've been messing with this bullet from Old West.It was copied from a pulled down original Sharps round. I can get plenty of hunting accuracy out to 300 yds, but I haven't been able to stop the vertical stringing beyond that. At any rate from the bullets I've recovered from behind the 200 yd target it out to turn a bull elk into winter feed with no sweat.:-D
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/paperpatch.jpg

[wonderwolf]

Wonderwolf, I could not disagree with you more. I would never use a long range target bullet on an elk. At the range that you will be gunning elk, bullets designed soley for accuracy will be no better than a hunting bullet. I would recommend a flat nosed, or very blunt round nosed bullet. A Sharps long range bullet would be, in my opinion, very ill advised.

Brent

The gentleman who hosted the paper patching website I got the modified sharps design from ( and has since stopped hosting the website) hunted elk with the original sharps design bullet with much success as per pictures of kills (elk) with the round nose (what looks like a target design). I'm sure lots of hide hunters (way back when) went back and forth on this as well. I'm not saying the Paper patched target bullet IS the all around bullet just the existence of the hunting FN design is evident of this. But the projectiles both being of the same material I don't think a more target oriented bullet will over or under perform a blunt nose bullet by much. Many million dead buffalo can't be wrong. and I know they were killed with probably just about every bullet design under the sun then. The 501gr rapine mold I have has a short ogive , If and when i get a more target oriented bullet I will shoot phone books at distances out to 300 yards and see what comes of things comparing both bullets. I admit however I don't have 1st hand experience hunting med or large size NA game I'm working in theories and what i've read...I apologize if this disappoints in my ability to uphold my case (no pun intended) :drinks:

[BrentD]

Those 20-60 million buffalo were not killed with a Sharps target bullet.

Shooting phone books is not very useful in my opinion.

I have shot exactly one animal with a target bullet - an antelope. I will not do this again as the well hit buck (double lung shot) took me half an hour to finish. Some years ago, someone wrote a similar story about shooting a deer or elk with a similar bullet and having similar results.

You can do whatever you want, but justifying the use of a target bullet because it is more accurate at long range does not get to the meat of the matter. A hunting bullet will never be used at such long ranges, it can be just as accurate at shorter ranges, and it will kill much much better. In the grand scheme of things, a new mould is really not that expensive and really will be a worthwhile investment, especially on an animal like an elk which are big, renowned for being hard to bring down, and generally pretty expensive to hunt - even for residents.

So, I am always willing to invest in the right bullet and be happy to know that the only variable of question in the equation for success is me.

Brent

[wonderwolf]

I don't think we're just going to agree much on what the other has to say. Though I will say that whatever mold I get its going to have a slight FP anyways, And to me a new mold at least of Red River Ricks make is slightly expensive ($150) being in college and all. I will admit that the short ogive and larger meplat of my Rapine PP mold was giving me excellent 200 yard groups from my sharps beating up the 4" X ring after a coaching session gave some of the guys who were shooting AR's and M1 Garands a new view of "old technology"

I would however like it if somebody could help with my original Q in the first post. Though from what I've gathered the Gibbs design has a tapered body?

[leftiye]

If you're shooting BP loads you'll end up with pretty low velocity. Many smokeless loads likewise. If this is the case, at longer ranges, you won't have velocity enough for much expansion unless you hit bone. If you don't have expansion or deformation, the flat nose bullet will kill much better. Inversely, if the range is shorter, and if you can get some expansion, there is still an advantage for the flat nose, as its poorer nose shape ballistically will matter less, and it will expand more. A friend of mine did however get a fine one shot kill on a bull Elk with a .58 cal. frontstuffer at about 200yds. with a 500 grain spire point. Two steps, lay down, DOA.

[wonderwolf]

I don't disagree with the fact that a large meplat will kill better than a Round nose I use large 70% meplat bullets in all my handguns for groundhogs and am planning on getting a 80% meplat mold cut for my 500 S&W. I also have several large meplat molds that I use in my .458 Winchester Magnum.

but like what brent said


At the range that you will be gunning elk, bullets designed soley for accuracy will be no better than a hunting bullet. I would recommend a flat nosed, or very blunt round nosed bullet. A Sharps long range bullet would be, in my opinion, very ill advised.

Brent

I probably will never get the chance to go hunt elk or buffalo,( well maybe buffalo as i recently made friends with some people who have some and allow a few to be shot) So I won't worry about it until I get a chance to get some real world feedback 1st hand. I think its kind of a moot point with a bullet as large and heavy as the 45 can throw.

[BrentD]

Just as a point of reference, two years ago, I shot an eland (2000 lbs) with a .45-100 using a 535 gr 40:1 flatnosed PPB. The range was right at 60 yds. The bullet did not expand. The eland died quickly because he was perfectly, and luckily heart shot. Had it been a double lung shot a few inches higher up, the results would have been much worse. This was with a flatpoint bullet on an animal as big or bigger than your average bison and much bigger than your average bull elk. http://bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=753&start=0 If it had been a lung shot with a long range bullet, it would have been much worse yet.

Bullet performance is a probabilitic thing. Not a certainty. So, why not put all the variables in your favor and use a bullet intended for hunting and not one intended to kill paper?

Conversely, that same bullet, load and rifle 2 days later killed a springbok at 215 yds and the bullet expanded, almost excessively. That is what I mean by bullet performance being a probabilistic thing, not a certainty.

there is a reason that hunting bullets are hunting bullets and long range target bullets are long range target bullets. Trust to the experience that 150 yrs of hunters and shooters have poured into their development.

Brent

[montana_charlie]

The gentleman who hosted the paper patching website I got the modified sharps design from ( and has since stopped hosting the website) hunted elk with the original sharps design bullet

I have shot exactly one animal with a target bullet - an antelope.
The gentleman referred to by wonderwolf is (I assume) Brent Danielson.
The remarks offered by BrentD seem to be contrary to what wonderwolf believes.

My question is...
Is BrentD actually Brent Danielson?

If so, you guys are talking in a circle that somebody needs to straighten out...
CM

[BrentD]

yes BrentD is Brent Danielson. And I never shot anything with a modified sharps design except targets. The elk on my old webpages was shot with a very blunt roundnose/semiwadcutter bullet. Not a Sharps long range bullet. It was unintentionally spined by the way and went straight down. It was my first bpcr kill as a matter of fact.

The animal I shot with a target bullet was shot a pronghorn that took 5-7 bullets, I now forget, after the first Hoch 317 gr .38-55 bullet passed through both lungs at 180 yds. That was NOT a paper patch but that does not matter. It was most definitely an ugly affair, and I regret it very much. This rifle now shoots a 317 gr wide flatnosed paper patch in .38-72 caliber and has accounted for a whitetail or two and a nice muley buck. All of which died post haste.

Brent

[montana_charlie]

yes BrentD is Brent Danielson.
Alright!

That information should help wonderwolf accept what you say with more confidence in it's value.

Also, I am glad to hear that you are among us. It makes it easier to talk to you about 'whatever'.

I know that your REAL webpage is 'in progress', but did you notice that, if you click on "Loading PPBs", you actually get "Hunting & the PPB"?

I hope the "Loading PPBs" page hasn't been lost...

CM

[wonderwolf]

Alright!

That information should help wonderwolf accept what you say with more confidence in it's value.

Also, I am glad to hear that you are among us. It makes it easier to talk to you about 'whatever'.

I know that your REAL webpage is 'in progress', but did you notice that, if you click on "Loading PPBs", you actually get "Hunting & the PPB"?

I hope the "Loading PPBs" page hasn't been lost...

CM

Yes I noticed that as well and the thought had crossed my mind if it was the same person. But I don't have the name of the person who wrote the article I read a few years ago. And from what BrentD has claimed and the school of thought he is coming from they are not the same person. I might have printed the article off but it would be in a box of stuff back home. I'll dig it out next time I'm home and look at who wrote it.

I can see things from Brents point of view as well and I understand where he is coming from. I can understand a more target oriented bullet having over penetration esp if it did not hit bone. I can see that point and that a larger meplat/blunt nose would perform better under those circumstances. I understood all of that before. I'm not have not learned anything new yet.

I'm after a target bullet pure and simple. I have plenty of molds on hand that fit Brents prescription for a hunting bullet and if the chance ever presents itself (or I buy a cow) I'll try them on a carcass and I'm sure I can already guess the results. For the sake of humanity I'll refrain from using a target bullet for hunting.

[montana_charlie]

I'm after a target bullet pure and simple.
This is simply a pure target bullet http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,7253.html
CM

[Digital Dan]

Well, since we're on the subject I'll toss in a couple of observations on the subject of bullet form and terminal performance. My limited experience goes to two rounds, one a .44 Mag, the other is .45-70. 300 grain RBFB with a .24" meplate of pure lead. The latter is a sleeker form of 510 grains, RBCP and no meplate, and about 1:30 alloy. It has been my observation that both will expand around 100% in any sort of berm dirt, damp, wet or dry. Both retain 97%+ weight in the process, this at ~1600 fps muzzle velocity, range of 50 and 100 yards. They are both usually found about armpit deep in the crater which results.

After breaking both forelegs and cleaning the plumbing off the top of a deer heart the .44 bullet looks about like this under the offside hide.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/PaperPatchDeer009.jpg

Or a hog, in thru the shoulder and coming to rest on its offside ham:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/DSCN1881.jpg

The .45-70 does about like this:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c264/Muffin1954/Cape%20Gun/MVC-003S.jpg

Draw your own conclusions and takes your own chances.

Dan

[windrider919]

No one can argue that a large meplat will deliver more energy to the target (animal) than a round nose or spitzer. However, before I became a large bore cast bullet shooter I used to shoot those J bullets. There is a significant difference in design and construction in those bullets. The target bullet has a softer, thinner jacket and is produced to a more uniform standard. The hunting J bullet [today] is designed for controlled expansion at a wide range of velocities. And given that it might be launched out of a classic cartridge at BP velocities or out of a magnum and expected to perform from point blank to even 800 or so yards they do an amazing job. But even one of these bullets will not do the job if not properly placed. Contrawise, even a non expanding bullet WILL do the job if properly placed. And sometimes the perversity of the universe happens: I have seen a bull elk shot through the heart {when we cut him open there was NO complete fragment of heart left, just mush} yet this fine animal ran over 110 measured YARDS before dropping.

However. We are a cast / swaged bullet group using non-jacketed bullets. And most of us are using big bore to boot. Here I am going to go into personal opinion based on 40 years of hunting and a lifetime of research on bullet performance. I have found that I will confidently hunt large game with a lead 'target' bullet because I know that when I hit my target point in the animal the terminal ballistics of that large bore soft lead bullet are equal to or greater than that small bore J bullet. The difference in tissue damage between a 500 grain flat point and a 500gr round nose are undetectable on the animal. The only difference is that I have more confidence in hitting exactly that vital point on the animal with the "target' bullet. Whether the large bore bullet expands is irrelevant if it destroys as much tissue and dumps as much FP of energy into the animal. And a 45 cal 500 gr that passes completely through the animal can and does damage as much as a 150 or 165 gr 30 cal that completely blows up inside the animal. Thats one of the main reasons I shoot big bore instead if 'trick' bullets, because they are MORE CONSISTANT and RELIABLE then the J bullet. As I said, it took 40 years of shooting before I found that out.

So Wonderwolf, shoot that 'round nose' for better accuracy and ballistic performance and when using it on game know that the accuracy gained will give you the edge to hunt humainly.

[EDK]

My BROOKS 50 caliber mould is a copy of the boolit designed by John Hansen, from Sand Hills Ranch; one of Ted Turner's buffalo ranches in the Nebraska sand hills. He did an article in BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE NEWS about his experiences guiding buffalo hunters and what calibers and boolit shapes worked. (I'll try to find it somewhere in my stacks.) I haven't shot a buffalo with it...except the steel one at 800 yards at the Quigley shoot. 610+ grains in 30:1 and about a .300 meplat. The KALYNUIK paper patch mould is similar to a postell. I have high hopes for it at the Q next summer.

For hunting, I'd refer to Mike Venturino's SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST and several articles in various magazines. Bill Bagwell (Redneck at GOEX web site) made some interesting comments while I was at the Q and he posts at both shilohrifle.com/forums, as well as at GOEX. There's a lot of information out there on the web sites, especially for the 45 calibers. There just aren't very many "instantaneous kills" with black powder rifles.

I think you're on the right track with one boolit for target and more specialized shapes for other purposes. I just wish I'd ordered the mould from Rick last winter, but I was "chasing my tail" sorting out a lot of data and opinions from knowledgable persons with experiences to back up their theories.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[BrentD]

If you are looking for a hunting bullet, you will be miles ahead following Bill's advice vs. Venturino's book. Bill knows of what he speaks when it comes to paper patch hunting. Makes a good lube too.

Brent

[EDK]

And some of the greatest knives on the world! They ain't cheap; but after you've "felt the magic" that is built into them, they're worth every penny! You know how a tool or firearm "just feels right in your hands;" that's how Bill's knives are.

:redneck::cbpour::Fire:

[BrentD]

EDK,
I have heard this but never seen one of his knives. Sure would like to some day.
Brent

[EDK]

Go to the Quigley shoot. 600+ shooters from 34 states and 4 foreign countries. A lot of people from here, shilohrifle.com and GOEX.com. More paper patch shooters every year and a few more vendors. It's 1400+ miles from my place just south of St Louis...this was my 4th year...I may not go anywhere else, but I'm goin' to the Q!

Bill Bagwell has been there most times...Dave Gullo from Buffalo Arms came a second year with a couple truck loads of goodies...Gussy from Cabine Tree, of course....Wendy and Harlan from Sagebrush Products...lots of small stuff and "junque," but still fun. Got the 50 caliber paper patch Kalynuik mould from Powderburnerr and I bought my second damascus knife from John Klein...he and his dad Mike have a little display also.

Go shoot, look around at the guns and gear people are using, and ask some questions...and share your knowledge too. It's like this forum, only being together physically. Get a motel room in town. Don't forget to drive over to Big Timber and see "the Sharps Rifle Company of your choice."

You gotta go once...and twice...and every year afterwards.

[Don McDowell]

EDK did the Goex forum come back online? If so would you post the www.?