Leading in handgun

[870TC]

Newb needs help with leading in a Kimber 45 auto.
I have shot cast bullets for years, but just tried casting and have a mess.
I'm using a Lee micro-band 200gr. swc mold, Lee .452 sizer and alox tumble lube. (Lube once before sizing and once after sizing).
Bore slugs .451, bullets measure .452 after sizing.
Lead=have tried wheel weights and a 75% ww and 25% Lino mix. BHN is around 13-14 with a LBT tester.
Load is 4.6gr of 700X=chronos between 800-900fps.

Getting alot of leading at the throat and about half way down the barrel.

Loading a similar BHN store bought bullet with traditional lube ring, in the same gun with the same load DOES NOT lead as much.

What did I do Wrong???????????

[Randall]

I had that problem when using a Lee factory crimp die. Went back to a taper crimp and no more leading. The Lee die sizes the bullet down in the case too much.

[870TC]

I'm using a regular RCBs taper crimp die. Taper crimp at the case mouth measures .469-.470
Crimping in a seperate step from bullet seating.

[Cherokee]

Bullet is .001 larger than bore, reasonable BHN, lube that usually works - huuuummmmm
Try a larger sized bullet. I personally have never tried the tumble lube Lee bullets and can only say other people use and like them.

[runfiverun]

could just be a rough bore.

[ANeat]

The bullets are to hard, run a softer bullet and the leading in the throat will go away. Try 50/50 WW lead mix. That may also eliminate your need to size.

The softer bullet will obturate in the throat sooner. 45acp runs at a pretty low pressure and a 14bhn bullet will get gas cut a bit right at the throat.

[Rusty Shackleford]

870TC,
I cast Lee tumble Lube types in 38/357, 44 & 45ACP and have never sized any of them.

[870TC]

Thanks Guys!, I will try making some softer alloy, and maybe lube the heck out of them. Cherokee, can't try the bigger bullets, as I cant afford to purchase another mold right now. (dang $4.00 a gallon gas!)

[Cloudpeak]

could just be a rough bore.

Is this a new pistol? As runfiverun said, could be a rough bore. After several thousand rounds in each, my Springfield 1911 barrels sure seem to have "polished up" a bit. The very light leading removes very easily with 4 or 5 swipes with a brass brush wrapped with "Chore Boy". My CZ 9mm leads more with only 1,200 rounds of lead bullets through it and takes longer to clean but I think it's cleaning up a bit easier than when new.

Cloudpeak

[Boerrancher]

Thanks Guys!, I will try making some softer alloy, and maybe lube the heck out of them. Cherokee, can't try the bigger bullets, as I cant afford to purchase another mold right now. (dang $4.00 a gallon gas!)

I shoot that same boolit, out of several different guns, but the ones that I shoot are bigger than .452. Most measure around 454. all of my guns slug at 450 to 451. The Reason they are bigger is because I don't size them at all. My alloy is 50/50 mix of WW and berm lead. The softer lead allows me not size them because it is more ductile and fills the bore better.

I had the same problem with my 1911 that you are having, using WW as an alloy. When I went to a softer alloy, and stopped sizing and my problems went away.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[jhalcott]

I had some leading in my s&w .45 auto when I used some gift HARD CAST bullets (220 grain) with the same load I had been using with NO lead. My bullets were 50/50 wheel weight and lead. I also shoot the Lee tumble lube bullet with this alloy with no leading.850 to 900 fps are the normal speeds I get.

[HeavyMetal]

Gentleman:
Your missing the obvious! tumble lube leads! Store bought, same diameter, same hardness does not! Store bought uses a "hard" type lube.

LLA is failing! You either need to add more LLA or switch to the hard type lube and the boolits that can use it.

No mystery here! The gun in question does not like the LLA! You can add more, which will just make a bigger mess or experiment with other types of lube.

[jack19512]

LLA is failing!







I use LLA in my 44 mag at a velocity of around 1300-1400 fps. with no leading.

[Boerrancher]

I use JPW for anything less than 1500 fps, and anything over that with or with out a gas check I coat first with LLA and then give it a second coat of JPW and let it harden. This prevents the LLA mess in my dies. I don't have a leading problem. The more I play with cast boolits the more I am realizing that for most shooting applications the right boolit fit and correct alloy are more critical than the lube.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch

[44man]

If I get a tiny strand of lead out of any of my guns it is OK. Sometimes there is none at all. One patch will remove any and all of it.
BUT, LLA leads every one of my guns. I use Felix even on the RD boolits. Or Lar's lube, CR.
I gave away a lot of the junk and still have bottles of it from the size dies I bought. I thought about using it for weed killer! :mrgreen:

[jhalcott]

I've used the LLA on 311291 bullets shot from my 30-30 contender and haven't got any leading. They are about 13 to 15 BHN depending on their intended use. I'm shooting a Lee bullet in my .45 auto that drops at 161 grains and about 11BHN. Diameter is just at .4535". I tumble them and load them to a velocity of 850 fps with different powders. I MAY get some dirt from the unique loads but I have NOT got any lead YET! I think bullet fit is the MOST important thing when shooting cast.

[44man]

Yes boolit fit is the most important thing to start with.
Mine are ALL oversize for my revolvers and I use from 50-50 WW's and lead to alloys with tin and antimony added to WW's. Air cooled or water dropped. No leading until I smear that funny gook on them. 1 layer, 2 layers, 3 layers, doesn't matter.
I guess it works in some guns and with some loads but it doesn't work for me at all. Accuracy also suffers for me with it.

[Boerrancher]

Accuracy also suffers for me with it.

This is one statement I will most certainly agree with you on. If I put too heavy of a coat of LLA, I can see a 3" group go to a 6" group.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[HeavyMetal]

LLa is one of those products that can be all over the board. I have used it with great success, I've also had issues with it. Oddly, and I hadn't realized it until just now, most of those issues were with auto loaders in the smaller calibers.

The fact remains that in 870tc's case the LLA has failed. Why is open for discussion.

It may be to thin, it may be to thick, he may have coated his boolits during a blue moon.

The only thing for 870tc to do is play with it some more. If he wishes to continue using LLA.

Because I found it to finicky doesn't mean anyone else will. However using a standard sizer set up and using Carnuba Red ( or any of the hard lubes) has removed one more headache from my loading cycle.

I load and shoot for fun. If I wanted a constant headache I'd get married again!

[Orygun]

...is what I would try. See my post here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31870&highlight=orygun

To add to that, the boolits were sized to .452, taper crimped and OAL to properly headspace on (my) barrel. Leading was not an issue!

[BD]

If this is a new Kimber I'd clean the barrel well and look to see if it's been throated at all. I've seen a 1/2 dozen Kimbers with no throat, just lands starting off from a square edge. This will peel a strip off of every boolit on each land which then gets smeared into the barrel by subsequent boolits until you erode the start of the lands a little. Sizing to .451 can actually help a lot if this is the situation.
BD

[870TC]

The Kimber has about 4-5000 rounds of lead through it.
Tried a couple other guns with same result, one was a springfield with over 50,000 rounds through it.
For you guys that can shoot lead in a pistol and not get ANY leading whatsoever. Well I'll be dammed if I've ever seen that before. No lead?, none at all? Must be nice!. Guess I'll have to pay more attention to what you guys do.

[jack19512]

For you guys that can shoot lead in a pistol and not get ANY leading whatsoever. Well I'll be dammed if I've ever seen that before. No lead?, none at all? Must be nice!. Guess I'll have to pay more attention to what you guys do.







Well, all I can say is I have not been casting for my revolvers long, have not casted and loaded for any semi-auto's but I am not having any leading problems with my .357 or 44 mag. I admit I am struggling with the accuracy thing but I clean my two revolvers after each use and I'll be dammed if I really know what I am doing right. I did have a real bad leading problem with one of my rifles once and tried a larger diameter bullet and guess what? No more leading. :)

[Bret4207]

I'll avoid saying the lube is failing. Instead I'll take a guess that it's a combination of size and alloy messing with you. I'm with the "bigger, softer" crowd. Try tumble lubing some booolits at as cast size. If you gun will accept the loaded rounds you may find you have no leading at all. IMO any die can swage a cast boolit in the case so check that too. Just for kicks try straight ACWW alloy. It works for me in peestols and rifles up to 1500 fps in various applications using plain old 50/50 lube and Mule Snot.


You did clean the barrel really, really well right?

[870TC]

Update: Found a couple things that work...don't know exactly, why but they work.
Took my sized WW bullets and my 75%WW and 25% lino blend bullets and applied a heavycoat of liquid alox. This worked, with minimal leading but kinda sticky.
Took my straight Lino (sized) bullets and pan lubed (cake/cookie cutter meathod) with Rooster Red, this also worked, no leading.
Cast some WW and did not size (.453-4), applied a thin coat of alox. This worked with minimal leading.
Tried WW sized, with thin coat of alox and reduced the load to 700fps, ok but leaded the most of those I tried today.
So more lube or going with a bigger unsized bullet solves the problem for me.
Thanks to everyone that gave suggtions, hope this helps someone else in the future.

[trickg]

I had that problem when using a Lee factory crimp die. Went back to a taper crimp and no more leading. The Lee die sizes the bullet down in the case too much.
Interesting - I use a Lee Factory Crimp die with cast, and haven't had any leading at all. Then again, I'm using mass manufactured purchased cast bullets - I'm not using my own, and they have the traditional grease groove rather than being Alox tumble lubed.

[docone31]

I just now got back from the range.
I make my own lube. 55% beeswax, 45% vaseline, some Marvel Mystery Oil, some automatic transmission fluid.
My wife and myself fired a mess of .45ACP, 9mm. No leading! None whatsoever. A couple of hang backs, but hey, I am still finding the load that chambers in three pistols.
200gn flat nose Lee, sized at .452. In my Commander, shot a little right. Most likely me.
I use Blue Dot. We both love the load. No leading whatsoever. I couldn't believe it.
The mix is water dropped wheel weights with 1% lead free solder for good luck.
Usually, at the end of a session, I fire a few ball ammo through each pistol. I did not bother this time.
I found a winner, and I had loaded a BUNCH! I a psyched.
It all works for me.

[Bullseye 4.5 gr]

Hey 870TC, Just to let you know I molded some .45ACP 200 gr Lee SWC tumble lube bullets recently!! I didn't size them, just made them and lubed them once with LLA. I shot them thru my Kimber Custom II, without taper crimping them (works that way in my Kimber!). You have to seat these bullets deeper so they will head space correctly tho. My Kimber never has jammed and didn't with these. I use straight wheel weights and only flux with beeswax when I melt the ingots to make bullets. My first try at making bullets (had to because of the cost of store bought). These bullets leave no more lead than the store bought ones, which is a trace. A friend of mine is going to start making some .40 bullets the same way, and I will soon be making some 9mm. I love Lee products and now their 6 cavity molds and Liquid Alox.
I have to agree with you...I have never seen NO lead in a barrel either after shooting lead bullets!!
Hope this helps you out,
Bullseye 4.5 gr

[truckjohn]

What I found....

There seems to be a "Magic" bullet size -- where you can do no wrong.
This is 0.4525" On my Taurus with current Kart EZ-Fit barrel.
For me, this is about 90% cause of the leading.
Check a throat slug. See what the dimensions are like. You may find your throat is closer to 0.453" for that 1st 1/32" of length....

Unfortunately, I currently have to swage to get them to that size.

2nd thing that helps -- Try a slower powder.... like 1-notch slower.

With H&G #68's, ACWW lead, LBT Soft blue lube...
VV N310 seems to lead more than VV N320.
Especially around 900 FPS -- which is a Max load with N310,
and middle of the road with N320.

3rd thing that helps -- Stronger cast front band.
BD45's, Lyman 230g RN, designs with a stronger front band seem to do better.

For example -- Leading wise, there is a big difference between "Re-swaged" H&G #68's (Longer initial nose) and H&G #130's (Shorter initial nose)... both 200g cast.
Both reswaged into a CH4D SWC 45 die.... which is basically a H&G #68 with a fatter nose.

The re-swaged #68's have about 2x the front band as the #130's... and leading is much reduced.

3rd thing... Fire lapping... just 5 or 8 rounds... might help a rough throat.

Good luck

John

[870TC]

Yep, saw the same V V loading info over on Graybeard. Also found a post there that, said more often then not, leading is caused by a wrong bullet size or lube issues-not so much about hardness.
Thanks