i don't care what you say about 25acp's

[mozeppa]

they are fun to load!

here's 10,000 on the bench to start packing.

1.5 grains red dot ....53 grain round nose, powder coated white.

(DO NOT ACCIDENTLY set a pack of mint TIC-TACS on the work bench!)

candy at 800 FPS

you might ask why 3 hornady L&L powder dispensers?

answer: because one is painfully slow putting out 1.5 grains....2 dispensers not too bad ....i can keep up with 3 and get more done in the same time frame.

[WJP]

Painfully slow? That would make me quit reloading. Cast, pc, size, and load 10k of 25 acp. No thanks but I wish you luck and pray for your sanity.

[dverna]

This is a joke right?

[RP]

WOW That's a lot of 25s

[Bzcraig]

Somebody have a long winter?

[BNE]

Wow. Just wow. I love reloading, but .25s made me wonder.

[Ken in Iowa]

Hey, whatever floats your boat brother!

[mdi]

I thought about reloading for my IJ 25 Auto, but since I have to use tweezers to pick up/hold 50 grain .224"bullets I prolly couldn't get a 50 gr 25 cal bullet into a case...

[adcoch1]

So, doing a lifetime supply in one run... Not a bad idea, but i don't envy the finger cramps from using tweezers that many hours on end... I like the tic tac look though...

[WickedColt]

This is what I call dedication!!

[kayala]

Stunning. I was proud of myself when I've loaded a batch of couple hundreds :D Cast and PC 10k - I'm speechless :)

[gwpercle]

10,000 25 acp.....are you sure that's enough ?

What do Tic-Tacs have to do with it ?

[Wayne Smith]

White powder coat, white tic tacs the same size!

[Soundguy]

25 ACP? Have a fly problem in your area? ;)

10k.. wow.. that would be many lifetime supplies for me.

[merlin101]

10,000 ?? Is the gun belt fed?

[Garyshome]

"Is the gun belt fed?" Well allrightythen!

[Engineer1911]

How much does the Dillon 1050 conversion cost? Loading a dusting of powder + tweezer tiny bullet is beyond my patience. How did you find a .25 ACP that will last 10,000 rounds? I've seen several fail on the first range trip before 50 rounds were fired.

Ooooooohhhh, the finger agony!

[Soundguy]

1910 mauser might hold up.

Good spy weapon ;)

[Shawlerbrook]

Does it take 10,000 shots from a 25acp to kill something? :p

[mozeppa]

Does it take 10,000 shots from a 25acp to kill something? :p

nope....sure does tick em off tho.

[mozeppa]

and ya'll are right ....it is a lifetime supply.

cuz i don't want to do it again!

[Johnny_V]

mozeppa, I for one applaud your efforts. All joking aside, if you have a caliber that can be reloaded, then get the stuff to do it. Never know when the Dems will get back into office, so you should never let your guard down......

BTW, I load for 32 ACP.....:killingpc

[John Allen]

I would love to do a light weight rifle in 25 acp.

[Soundguy]

Does it take 10,000 shots from a 25acp to kill something? :p

And if that wont do it, you can use a Ss 22lr. ;)

[Soundguy]

I would love to do a light weight rifle in 25 acp.

I think id go with a heavy rifle with bayo, that way after you shoot them with 25 acp, and they make your position and come for you, at least you will have a weapon to defend yourself with hand to hand.

[308Jeff]

I can barely stand reloading 223, even with the RCBS GMM Seater. I'd lose my mind reloading 25 ACP.

[thegatman]

Does it take 10,000 shots from a 25acp to kill something? :p
In New York, it doesn't take ten rounds to 'keel a deer" You have to know our governor.

[Chev. William]

Get a Strong NONE Blow-Back Acton Rifle and convert it to .25ACP. Even a Stevens Model 44 with a ".25 Stevens" barrel would work. Changing from RF to CF would need a Good Gunsmith but that is a Known Situation.

Just make sure the rim is Behind the Extractor, not in front of it.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bazoo]

Thats pretty neat. I'd like to see some close up pics of the brass... and bullets... I dont have to see a pound and a half of powder.

[mozeppa]

Thats pretty neat. I'd like to see some close up pics of the brass... and bullets... I dont have to see a pound and a half of powder.

when i get home....i'll get you a pix.

[dverna]

This is amazing on so many levels:

Why would you invest in 10,000 .25 ACP cases and only load them once?
Where does anyone find 10,000 .25 ACP cases?
Who would ever shoot that many .25's?
Why would you invest in two more powder dispensers when a progressive press makes more sense?
Why would you weigh every charge?
Loading 10k rounds, with each charge weighed, will take about 100 hours.

Like I said...amazing.

I think there is more to this story...at least I hope so...otherwise.....????

[psweigle]

I have a box full of 25acp that my son and I reloaded. Well, HE reloaded, and I supervised. Currently, he has shot them all once, in his Phoenix arms 25. Never a jam or misdeed. I love the idea of the "tic-tac" boolit! I use bulk surplus jacketed bullets right now, because I hate using the rcbs mold! I will go back to cast once I get the funds together for an aluminum mold. I'm actually more impressed that you powder coated all of those little buggers!

[psweigle]

195428

[bedbugbilly]

All kidding aside - I admire your patience! That is quite an accomplishment and while you may get the "berries" for doing it - we have to remember that we all have our "favorites" and I can see how a little .25 might be fun for doing some plinking. And reloading the .25ACP makes more sense that some of those who are reloading 22 rimfire.

When I see something about someone reloading 25 ACP or 32 ACP, it reminds me of why I like reloading 45 Colt - big boolits, big casings and the old fingers can easily grasps 'em. I know I'd have an issue with those little boolits and would probably drop more on the floor with my "fumble fingers" that I would get in the case mouth!

Enjoy - was interesting o see your endeavors!

[mozeppa]

This is amazing on so many levels:

Why would you invest in 10,000 .25 ACP cases and only load them once?not really once. (answer is coming.)
Where does anyone find 10,000 .25 ACP cases? at a .25 acp (only) target shoot league.
Who would ever shoot that many .25's? see above
Why would you invest in two more powder dispensers when a progressive press makes more sense? i have dillon progressives...they don't make for the .25
Why would you weigh every charge? a regular powder measure won't throw 1.3 grains consistently,
Loading 10k rounds, with each charge weighed, will take about 100 hours. are you in a hurry?

Like I said...amazing.

I think there is more to this story...at least I hope so...otherwise.....????

you used the word "invest" ....what return are you expecting?

the other 2 powder measures saves time on waiting for it to mead out 1.3 grains of red dot.
1.3 grains can take 10 seconds to a minute to measure ...with 3 measures going at once, i'm busy keeping up.

and now you know.............................................. ...................the rest of the story!
mozeppa!.......................................... .......................................good day!

[mozeppa]

i think i'll load up a dummy .25 acp ....and use a real "tic-tac" mint candy as the bullet.

then show the real bullet cartridge to my uncle...declare that it's too heavy to shoot POA... then bite half the tic-tac off and say "that outta do it!"

[psweigle]

Now that's funny!

[Chev. William]

i think i'll load up a dummy .25 acp ....and use a real "tic-tac" mint candy as the bullet.

then show the real bullet cartridge to my uncle...declare that it's too heavy to shoot POA... then bite half the tic-tac off and say "that outta do it!"

Laughing: Just don't bite down on the CASE!

Chev. William

[psweigle]

I might have to try that myself!

[Catshooter]

A 25 ACP-only league? That's a new one on me. Tell us more about it please? What kind of course of fire, distances etc. Sounds interesting and I bet it would be fun.

Where's that close-up pic of your boolits? :)


Cat

[Bazoo]

What kind of firearms are you shooting bunches of 25 acp through? I assume... it aint cheap pocket pistols.

[54bore]

You can legally hunt elk here in Idaho with a .25ACP, but you can NOT hunt elk with a .45 Caliber Muzzleloader pushing 400 PLUS grain bullets at 1400 FPS, Now that makes a BUNCH of sense doesn't it?

[Bazoo]

In KY, for deer... any centerfire handgun or rifle is legal. So 25 acp through 50 BMG, Rimfire aint legal for deer... regardless of caliber or power. And, only rimfire is legal for small game, So I could use a 44 henry... but not a reduced 38 special.

[psweigle]

I shoot an erma werke ep-25 and a Phoenix arms 25. The erma is more picky than the Phoenix. Payed $50 for the erma and $120 new for the Phoenix. I'm hoping to finish the single shot rifle project soon.

[Chev. William]

You can legally hunt elk here in Idaho with a .25ACP, but you can NOT hunt elk with a .45 Caliber Muzzleloader pushing 400 PLUS grain bullets at 1400 FPS, Now that makes a BUNCH of sense doesn't it?

IT Demands Really Good Stalking Skills to take an Elk with a .25ACP if it is a Factory Loaded Cartridge you are using.

Laughing,
Chev. William

[RogerDat]

well here's hoping he didn't have to apply a gas check in addition to the white PC. On the other hand a copper gas check might make it less likely to be mistaken for a tic-tac. Unless of course when you load tic-tac you put a gas check on them too so they won't shatter. Or is a wad card enough for shooting candy?

[54bore]

IT Demands Really Good Stalking Skills to take an Elk with a .25ACP if it is a Factory Loaded Cartridge you are using.

Laughing,
Chev. William


I'd much rather have my falling axe! And thats no joke!! Not being able to hunt Elk here with our .45 Cal Muzzleloaders just doesn't make sense? But its the Law, and thats that! My Green Mountain fast twist barreled TC Hawken with 400 Grain paper patched bullets will drive nails at 100 yards, best shooting Muzzleloader i own, it Sickens me that I can NOT elk hunt with it

[KenT7021]

I'm getting ready to load .25 ACP.I just got a set of dies and have some lead hollow points coming from Hunters Supply.I was bidding on a mould on Ebay but it went for over $200.00.I dropped out way before the end.I have a nice 1910 Mauser in .25.

[Soundguy]

.25acp, practically a parlor gun ;)

[psweigle]

well here's hoping he didn't have to apply a gas check in addition to the white PC. On the other hand a copper gas check might make it less likely to be mistaken for a tic-tac. Unless of course when you load tic-tac you put a gas check on them too so they won't shatter. Or is a wad card enough for shooting candy?

im pretty sure a wad card is good enough!

[jetinteriorguy]

I think a nice SA revolver and a small bolt action repeater in .25 ACP would be a blast. Sort of a renewable .22 RF replacement.

[jdfoxinc]

Taurus makes a nice copy of the Beretta tilt barrel. Much higher quality than phoenix/raven/etc. I got my lyman mold, dies, some brass, swaged boolits in swap and sell here.

[dverna]

I wrote to Dillon to see if would sell a "blank" shell plate but they do not offer one. They told me they gave up on trying to load .25ACP on a progressive as they experienced problems with case alignment and primer searing.

So the OP is correct. It will be necessary to use a single stage or possibly a turret press.

[psweigle]

I load mine on a lee classic turret press.

[Chev. William]

I think a nice SA revolver and a small bolt action repeater in .25 ACP would be a blast. Sort of a renewable .22 RF replacement.
Ruger "Single Eight" in .25ACP with a 10-5/8" barrel is FUN even though My "Grip" is still weak for the Muzzle heavy Revolver. Custom CF conversion of a Used "Single Six .22CAL Convertible".

Chev. William

[arclight]

I wrote to Dillon to see if would sell a "blank" shell plate but they do not offer one. They told me they gave up on trying to load .25ACP on a progressive as they experienced problems with case alignment and primer searing.

So the OP is correct. It will be necessary to use a single stage or possibly a turret press.

.32 ACP loads just fine on a 550B, however. I think I was dropping 2.0gr of W231 pretty consistently.

Arclight

[Smk SHoe]

At that powder charge, wouldn't a dipper work? Good thing is the PB supply would last a long time. only about 70lbs to do the 10K at 50 grains. 70lbs does like a magazine for my .50 beuwolf.

[lightload]

Please tell us how you located 10,000 .25 acp cases. My guess is from a handgun manufacturer.

[Soundguy]

If someone told me I had to load 10K 25 acp.. I'd quit reloading..

[KCSO]

I would rather take a whipping! I hate loading those tiny buggers.

[sawinredneck]

I've heard brain surgery was easier.

[Chev. William]

To Each their Own it seems.
I load .25ACP on a Single Stage Press one charge At a time using a RCBS/OHAS Balance Beam Scale.
200 Cartridges a sitting is reasonable for Me.
Your "Reasonable" may 'Vary'.
Your Charges May 'Vary' Also. I try To stay within .05 grains on my charge weights, which is difficult enough with the 0.1 grain Marked Resolution of the Scale.
Chev. William

[Traffer]

1.5 grain of Red Dot? I haven't tried Red Dot yet for my 22lr. But was planning to. I like the fact that you can use about half of the amount you would use for some other powders and that makes it super cheap. I was going to use 1.3 grains to 1.5 grains to propel a 40 grainer out of a 22lr. So about 5k rounds to a lb of powder. The other ingredients are comparatively less expensive. I got er down to under a penny a round.

[psweigle]

My 12 year old son loads his 25auto on my lee turret press. He has small fingers and it works better.

[mozeppa]

woo! many questions to answer!

the 25 league really isn't a "league" once a month they have a "25" tournament ...15 yard bullseye contest
i haven't competed there, but they did have oodles of brass to sweep up the next day each month.

thats where i got the brass.

we shoot at a place in oklahoma out side just for giggles.

my piece is a raven by phoenix what sets mine apart from the jam-o-matics is that it's a very low serial number.
that means when they were trying to make name for themselves the put a little more quality into the early ones
so 's not to scare away any future buyers when they started to produce ****.

mine will not fire reliably with any factory ammo ...but with careful study of bullet profile and powder loads i have come up with the perfect ammo for "MY" phoenix raven....your mileage may vary.

with my ammo it very rarely has any problems at all ...and believe it or not ...at 20 to 25 yards is wicked accurate.

i reload 14 calibers for pistol and use a lot of red dot ...i currently have about 30 pounds of red dot...and 120 pounds of 22 other pistol powders.

i do use a dipper since the first post i found that getting a perfect 1.3 grains of powder each time was quicker with a dipper than using a electric measure...oh , i still pour it out of the dipper into a pour pan on a electric scale...but i don't trickle meter it any more.

i use a lyman "T" mag press....and usually do 3 to 4 hundred at a time.

[Chev. William]

You Seem to "live right" to have such a Good Rapport with your Raven. I still have my Late Wife's Raven. I tried it after She Died and found the Original Magazine it Had with it would not Feed Reliably; Inspection discovered Dinged Feed Lips so I bought a Pair of replacement Magazines.
The New Magazines Solved the Feed Problems, but after one box of factory Ammo I noticed it was Beating itself To death on recoil (impact Dings on Slide and lower) so I stopped Shooting it. It is now a "Safe Queen" in memory of my Wife.

I now have a 10-5/8" inch barrel Ruger Single Eight Revolver to shoot .25ACP for Fun.
chev. william

[Bazoo]

mozeppa, how many rounds do you reckon you have on that raven?

[mozeppa]

maybe 5 or 6 thousand.

if it wears out or beats it self to pieces....i'll sell the 16 mags i have for it and buy a beretta .25 ( may buy one anyway!):bigsmyl2:

[psweigle]

I bough my son a Phoenix arms, he has at least 700 rounds through it. He first had an erma werke ep25 but wore it out in 3 years. The slide would actually lift up off the frame. The Phoenix is only 2 years old, so we are hoping it lasts for a while. Reloading 25's is now a family tradition.

[SOFMatchstaff]

I just set up the RL550 and ran off 600 of the little beggars, 35gr GoldDot, 1.5gr titegroup, Fiocchi sp primer at .865 oal. took about 2.5 hrs start to finish, and the Lyman 55 was dead nuts on all the way thru... I did have to turn and polish the powder drop/expander to get the proper neck tension, but all in all it went smoother than I expected..

[Salmon-boy]

My wife's got a Taurus PT25. It's a nice little gun for practicing trigger control at 25yrds. Doesn't take more than a box of 50 to get back to square or cramp your hand up!

A couple of years ago I loaded up 2K using 3 Lee Reloaders mounted next to each other. Once all the cases were primed it went rather quickly.

[Combat Diver]

I've owned on nickled Baby Browning and neighbor had a Beretta 950, neither ever malfunctioned. At 1.3 grs thats less then 2 lbs of Red Dot per 10,000 rds. 50 rds of .25 ACP is anywhere from $15-25 per box.

CD

[Chev. William]

I've owned on nickled Baby Browning and neighbor had a Beretta 950, neither ever malfunctioned. At 1.3 grs thats less then 2 lbs of Red Dot per 10,000 rds. 50 rds of .25 ACP is anywhere from $15-25 per box.

CD

I found a Sale on Outdoor Unlimited and Bought 1000 Rounds for about $260 including Shipping.
All from a single Lot of 50 Grain FMJ By PPU and It is My "Reference Cartridge" for setting up my chronograph with my Ruger Single Eight in .25ACP at the Local Commercial outside Range.
I find it consistently chronos about 2.1% lower than Factory Advertised Velocity when fired from My revolver Possibly due to the "venting" between Cylinder and Barrel.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

More Puttering:
This Morning, while it was Cool in the Morning Overcast and Fog, I finished De-capping my last Batch of Once Fired 5.7x28mm Cases, found one with a Live Primer AND a Bullet Inside!

Set it aside until i had completed the De-capping of the rest! Total Usable Count in this "1000 piece Lot" was 1007, plus one .22LR case and the one Over Expanded one.

Then used my Lee "Universal Expander Die to Over Expand the Neck far enough to let The Bullet drop out, it was a Jacketed Flat Base one that weighed about 30 Grains.
This makes about 3000 Cases de-capped and of that about 700 that have been resized down and trimmed for my Experiments so far, with another 410 in the downsizing process.

I think Now I have almost A "Lifetime supply' for my Experiments.

Most of the Current lot seem to be Date Coded as 2014 Manufacture FNB 'military' as they had Crimped in Primers.
They Probably will reform And lengthen to about 1.230" Length and I will Trim Them as Needed for my experiments.

1.125" for .25ALS; 1.055" for .25 Magnum Auto; .960" For .25ALR as Needed or as they Neck split to extent The useful life. Annealing is NOT a Choice as these Are Polymer coated cases.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Since My Last Post of Aug. 14 I have Completed de-capping all my "Back Stock" of 5,7x28mm Cases and put them in Plastic MTM 100 round or 50 round boxes stored in two Surplus 40mm Mortar ammo Boxes I bought on Ebay.
These 40mm Ammo boxes hold 17 of the MTM 100 round "9mm" boxes for a total capacity of 1700 rounds in one ammo case.

Then I reformed 400 of them down to .276" body diameter; followed by trimming 100 to .980" length and 100 to 1.055" length with another 100 waiting to be trimmed to 1.125" length.

Also; I have trimmed the "Brass Displacement roll from 100 Reformed Hornet Cases, with about 300 more to be 'de-rolled' yet.

Trimming is Slowed by My Frustrating Problem with my Trimmer not reliably holding these small Diameter/Length Rims. the case being trimmed Keeps coming loose from the holder and I have to stop and put it back.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A photo of some recent Activity:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/250ALxx%20Family%20Cartridge%20project/f42b9317-908b-40a0-901f-b5841644e075_zpsaxj7erjb.jpg
Left to Right: Lee Champfer Too modification to use on .25ACP Cases; Dummy Cartridges of My .25ACP "Wildcat" Family; Modification to Lee Universal Expander Tool to Expand .25ACP 'Family' Case Mouths.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Soundguy]

Neat!

[RWE]

Mr. William, that is some neat stuff. I have often thought of wildcatting a 251 cal, because I have 700 plus 251 xtp's laying around in my stash and no longer have a 25 ACP.

For the record though, and in spite of the heat I may take, I have a Lee Loader in 25 ACP, and used to have a lot more xtp's before I sold my Colt Vest Pocket....

[Chev. William]

If I remember correctly; the 'XTP' in .25ACP is a 35 grain Jacketed HP Bullet?

You Might consider Converting a Ruger "Convertible Single Six" to fire .25ACP like i have, or building a .25ACP rifle, like i have in The Process.

I am sure You may have More Fun shooting them then.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[RWE]

Yep, 35gr.

I also have a box of the little seen 50gr HP, which I assume are used for elk.

I was thinking of converting a single shot handi rifle, or some other such platform.

[Chev. William]

A photo of Some of my "Wildcat" as Dummy Crtridges:
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/250ALxx%20Family%20Cartridge%20project/c8fe7e32-b369-477c-956d-726b177c4396_zpszp8ajiqx.jpg
Left to Right: .25ACP/6,35 Browning @.905" OAL; .25ALR/6.35x24mmSR @1.293" OAL; .25 Magnum Auto./6.35x26mmSR @.1.566" OAL; .25ALS/6.35x28.5mmSR @ 1.407" OAL. All With .250" sized Hornady #2510 60 grain Jacketed Soft Flat Point Bullet.

Note: .25ACP Case Length = .612"; .25ALR Case Length = .960"; .25 Magnum Auto. Case Length = 1.055"; .25ALS Case Length = 1.125".

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A Pair of Modified Tools:
First, A Lee Champfering Hand Tool that is TOO TALL to use with .25ACP Cases was Shortened in a Lathe to allow holding the case and champfering the Outside edge of Mouth.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/250ALxx%20Family%20Cartridge%20project/04705ca1-760a-4678-8b71-34a62a620a31_zpssgfoqow2.jpg
Left to Right: .25ACP Case; Stock Lee tool on a .25ACP Case; Modified Tool on a .25ACP Case.

And Second, A Lee Universal Expander Die Small Case Punch is Modified to make a .250" Diameter Case mouth Expander.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/250ALxx%20Family%20Cartridge%20project/2dffb27f-ec69-4db4-be41-a75d942e6efb_zps4iuat4gk.jpg
Left to Right: Stock Lee Small Case Expander insert; Modified Lee Small Case Expander Insert with Lathe turned shank of .250"/.240" diameters.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Work with a Redding Hand Case Trimmer:

Through the Kindness of a fellow Poster on the Forum, I acquired a NOS slightly used Redding #1400 Case Hand Trimmer.

I now have done Twenty Reformed 5.7x28mm Cases; trimming them to about 1.125" length and found that the Length Variation is Greater Than I had thought.
it is Running from 1.125" up to 1.130" possibly due to 'drift of The Length Setting in use but not yet Identified As to cause or Causes.

Resetting the 'Fine' Length adjustment is an interim 'fix' but seems to drift again with Further Use.
Due to "Problems" with my Fingers; I seem to have a "One Sitting" limit of about ten cases on this hand trimmer. Then I need to take a break until my fingers recover again. This may be An Age Related probem for me.

"Cogitating" upon the Drift in settings:
Is it possible the Coarse Setting is 'Slipping' slightly due to exerted Cutting Forces?
Is it Possible the 'Fine' Adjustment is moving due to Friction of the Ring Against the Stop Surface?
Is there possible 'Wear' to either the Cutting lip(s) OR the Stop Surface of the Trimmer Body?
Is this variation in Trim Length due to Variations in Rim diameters?
Is this variation in Trim Lengths Due to Variations in Clamping Force Applied?

It Does NOT appear To be Temperature Related as no Part of the tool or work piece seems to get Warmer in use as I try to keep the Moving surfaces of the Tool Lubricated with light oil. Touching the Cutter, work piece nor Rotating Holder gives any Perceived feelings of Warming.

Clamping Forces seem to be Consistent by feel when I close and open The Collet.
Further Observation of Clamping effects needs to be done.

Theoretically, I believe I could make a "Collet Adapter and Closer" to Fit the Lyman Trimmer Body in place of the Lyman case holder assembly. My thinking is that the Collet Adapter would be clamped in the Body like the Lyman holed is presently; Be a hollow Turning with the Collet end extended out the face of the Lyman body and using a Spiral Spring Pin to index the Collet. The Opposite end would need external threads and a retainer nut along with sufficient 'Tail' to provide a surface for the Collet closer internally threaded tube to seat against in tension. The Closer Tube would need a Hand Wheel of adequate Size to make use Comfortable.
Obviously this will take further Measurements, Thinking, and Drawing up Plans to work from.

In the Interim, some solution to the 'Drift' of trim Length in use needs to be discovered.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Please Check Out my New Topic:

.25 Auto Long rifle Wildcat.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I bought two bags of Jagemann Stamping .25ACP empty Brass And did a full Bag measurement of the Trim case lengths. I found the Majority of the Cases, 63, were Trimmed to .603"-.604" with a extreme spread of .601" to .607". This seems to be near the Middle of SAAMI Recommended Length (.615" Maximum with a +0.0"/-0.020") but less than the European CIP Standard of .612" which my previous purchased PPU, CBC, and GFL cases hit at +/-0.001".

I received A Call back from Jagemann this morning Saying they were Very Interested in my Findings; they further said they would look into what the production mean value their QC department was finding and consider adjusting their tooling to yield a mean trim length closer to .612"-.615" maximum.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I plan on opening my Box of New cast Matt's Bullets Wednesday which should contain 1000 of Lyman #257420 .65 Grain Nominal Bullets; and 1000 of Accurate Molds #311090 Heeled Bullets already sized And lubed at .312" diameter with the heel lube groove filled and a thin film of lube on the rest of the heel.
This thin film gets skived off when I load them into my sized. 32 Colt cases.

The 257420 bullets will be tumble Lubed and Sized down to .251" diameter as I need them for loading my .25ALR Cartridges with Bullseye or BE-86 propellants.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The .257" Lyman #257420 Lubed bullets weigh between 73 and 74 Grains according to my RCBS Balance beam Scale. This is heavier than Lyman advertises for this Bullet and Mold.

I was 'Hoping' for a 65 to 67 grain bullet.
Now I will need To calculate as set of Test Loads to try as the heavier bullet will upset my previous load testing results.

On the Other Hand, this bullet may be very Interesting in my longer 'Mildcats'. and even possibly in a 25,000psi Pmax MAP load in .25ACP cases.

Approaching 150 % of 'normal' .25ACP bullet Weight!

Best Regards,
Chev. william

[ascast]

I don't think I have ever seen a set of "310" dies in this caliber. Might be handy to roll up a few 1,000 for the SHTF scenario.

[Chev. William]

I don't think I have ever seen a set of "310" dies in this caliber. Might be handy to roll up a few 1,000 for the SHTF scenario.

Seems like a better Choice than a .22 RF as The .25 ACP, and my 'Mildcats' ARE easily reloaded.
Also the .25ACP can be Quiet if fired from a Rifle. Allowing its use for Pot Meat while not advertising to the Whole Township that someone is Hunting.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Soundguy]

22lr fired thru a silencer can be quiet too. 25acp doesn't gain anything from a long bbl, but thru a long bbl , 22lr beats 25 hands down.

[Chev. William]

Lyman 257420 From Matt's Bullets Drops between 73 and 74 Grains Lubed.
Sized to .251 Diameter They Are .610" long. For a .25ACP+P Ruger Revolver Load,
Using "QuickLOAD" software:
Case Length = .612"; overflow Capacity 6.7 Grains H2O;
Loaded Overall length = .905"-0.0/+.005"; Bullet Seating Depth = .317";
Propellant = Power Pistol; charge weight = 2.0 grains; Loading Ratio (fill) = 100.6%;
Barrel Length = 12".
CALCULATED But NOT TESTED Data For discussion use only:
Charge Fraction burnt at Shot Start = 1.06%; Bullet Travel at Pmax = .13";
Maximum Chamber Pressure = 25,330psi (1746 bar);
Pressure at Muzzle exit = 1027psi; bullet velocity = 1062fps;
Bullet Barrel Time = 1.237ms; Bullet energy = 185ft.lbs.; propellant Burnt = 87.3%;
Ballistic Efficiency = 37.6% .

Since my Ruger Single Eight typically Yields MV about 2.1% below Calculated, my Theoretical MV=1039fps.

I think this May be worth further testing.
Starting with a charge 10 % BELOW the Above Maximum (1.8 grains for Starting charge).

Offered for discussion.
Chev. William

[RED BEAR]

I freely admit I plan on purchasing a 25 acp to Cary as a back up . and will be casting and reloading it. And I know I have heard it all about how a sling shot rock or stick would be better but alliant shows a 35 gr hp 1.7 gr bullseye at 1040 fps. And that is not quite a bb gun. Also a 25 is superior to a 22 in short barrel guns as per NRA testing. This will not be a main gun have 9 mm for that but a back up that I feel fully comfortable with. Caliber is a poor substitute for pistol craft.

[Catshooter]

Red Bear,

There are tons and tons of .25s carried every day. Yes, they aren't what you call powerful. It's still a gun, and far better than no gun, regardless of what the nay-sayers say. I have one that will put a mag into a 2.5 inch circle at 20 yards (benched) and I love it.

The .25 is a much more physically rugged cartridge than a .22 and generally much more reliable.

Good luck with yours.


Cat

[Chev. William]

22lr fired thru a silencer can be quiet too. 25acp doesn't gain anything from a long bbl, but thru a long bbl , 22lr beats 25 hands down.

Through a LONG Barrel, such as a 24" Rifle Barrel with Factory Loaded Ammunition, you are correct.
The .25ACP is tested at the Factories with a 6" barrel while the .22LR is tested with a 24" barrel; so the 22lr is OPTIMIZED for the Longer Barrel.
I believe the NRA tested both in Short Barrel and found the .25ACP to out perform the .22LR when shot out of SHORT Barrels.

Were you planning to carry A Long Barrel Rifle as a concealed Carry Firearm?

I do NOT plan to carry my 10-5/8" barreled Ruger Single Eight as A Concealed Carry firearm as it is NOT easily Concealed in, and of, Itself.

Home Reloading for a Strong Action Firearm IS Possible with the .25ACP, and it seems the Pmax MAP may be increased over What the FACTORIES use as they seem to Download out of difference to both Weaker and Older Firearms still in Service.

If you wish to carry a 1 to 3 inch long barreled concealable firearm I doubt you would be Satisfied with Anything short of a 45ACP loaded with Red dot or Bullseye when limited to the typical 6 Rounds in magazines for concealable Semi-Auto Pistols.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Outpost75]

I don't own now, nor have I ever owned a .25 ACP, but I have greatly enjoyed reading this thread, and I want you to know that thanks you you guys, I will never again feel self-conscious or inadequate about my .32 cal. Bunny Gun Fetish.

Bravo Zulu to all of you, a mention in dispatches and a double rum ration tonite!

207652

[Col4570]

Quite sensible more than a lifetimes supply.Now had it been Velo Dog we would be wondering.

[AllanD]

I would love to do a light weight rifle in 25 acp.

Actually an old 25stevens rimfire converted to center-fire using brass from a 5.7x28FN would make
a lot more sense.

I loaded 3500 32ACP once and when I was done I gave away the dies!

Also as far as suppressed firearms I have an OLd Winchester model 67A single shot 22 that with anything other than HV ammo is quiet enough to not only hear the striker fall, but to hear the echo of the striker falling! my RWS Spring-Piston air rifle is several orders of magnitude louder!


AD

[Chev. William]

22lr fired thru a silencer can be quiet too. 25acp doesn't gain anything from a long bbl, but thru a long bbl , 22lr beats 25 hands down.

For Factory Loaded Ammo you are correct as 22Lr is tested through a 24 inch barrel and .25ACP is tested Through a a much shorter barrel.

For Hand loaded .25ACP that is loaded to SAAMI 25,000psi MAP, you may be incorrect as slower burning powders can be employed that both burn completely before the bullet exits a longer barrel and provide an longer and Stronger Push on the bullet for higher muzzle velocity and energy.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Soundguy]

And that special 25acp would be near worthless in the other 99.999999999% of guns chambered for it with 1" bbls.. Etc.

[RED BEAR]

I have always believed you can not make up for poor pistol craft with a bigger caliber. I carry a 7 shot 9mm. And the 25 will be a back up. But plan on switching to a 32 auto ppk or copy. Have snub 44 and 357 if I feel the need just haven't felt the need perfectly comfortable with a 32 .

[Soundguy]

A 32acp I'd feel ok with, I have a few C&R examples, as well as a modern keltec p32.

A 25acp just wouldn't make me feel safe. ( I'd rather have a 22lr! )

If I only had a 25, and me and another guy were being chased by a rabid raccoon, about the only thing I think I could do would be to shoot the other guy in the foot. Course, if he was wearing thick leather boots like me, that might not even hurt him either. ;)

[Motor]

OK. I didn't read 6 pages of reviews so this was probably covered but I still have to ask. Why would you EVER use an electronic powder dispenser to load 1 25acp let alone this many?

A RCBS Uniflow or similar mechanical dispenser would be way to charge the casings. I know the Uniflow has the "small" drum and will dispense small charges rather well.

You use a loading block and charge 50 or a 100 at a time.

Motor

[Chev. William]

And that special 25acp would be near worthless in the other 99.999999999% of guns chambered for it with 1" bbls.. Etc.

But of course the owner of a 1 inch barreled .25ACP handgun can develop a load OPTIMIZED for his firearm that can and usually will outperform Factory .22LR fired from a 1 inch barrel.

Chuckling,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

OK. I didn't read 6 pages of reviews so this was probably covered but I still have to ask. Why would you EVER use an electronic powder dispenser to load 1 25acp let alone this many?

A RCBS Uniflow or similar mechanical dispenser would be way to charge the casings. I know the Uniflow has the "small" drum and will dispense small charges rather well.

You use a loading block and charge 50 or a 100 at a time.

Motor

1. Charge Weights in the range of 0.7 grains to 3.1 grains of Propellant are Very sensitive to charge weight variations.
2. Use of an electronic scale with an Accuracy and Resolution of less than +/- 0.01 grains is definitely contraindicated.
3. Personally, I use a Balance Beam type propellant scale with a marked resolution of 0.1 Grains but capable of interpolating settings to about 0.02 grains and accurate to about +/-0.003 grains.

4. I personally measure, Charge and seat one Charge/Case and bullet at a time to avoid double charging a Case/cartridge or failure to charge a case/cartridge. I then accumulate the seated Rounds in a Loading block and later Crimp the Loaded Cartridges as i have a Single Stage Press and it requires separate setup and adjustment for the seating and the crimping operations.

5. At the Charge Weights involved here, even a 3.0 grain charge, a 0.1 grain error is about 3 Percent change in total charge. Quite a bit more than enough to throw the fired bullets out of a target group.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Soundguy]

Equalize it maybee down tot he dismal 25acp spec.. but i doubt outperform it.

I was looking up 22lr and 25 acp stats a while back, and yes, dropping the bbl did take a huge chunk out of the 22lr... which brough it down so it could fist bump 25acp.

I don't think that's bragging rights for 25 acp... that you can handicap another round enough so that it comes down to the high marks the 25 acp makes on the wall when it's 'on game'

LMAO!

[RED BEAR]

NRA compared the two and the 25 came out on top. To those who claim the 22 is superior if you are happy with your delusions then help your self. The 25 has a one shot stop percentage on between 25% - 30%. And read somewhere that anything worth shooting with a pistol is worth shooting 3 times. There are lots of people around my neck of the woods that have to have a cannon to hunt squirrels.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I remember many years ago an assassin shot the last white president of South Africa twice in the face with a .25 ACP with little effect. Later another man got him with a knife.

[Soundguy]

NRA compared the two and the 25 came out on top. To those who claim the 22 is superior if you are happy with your delusions then help your self. The 25 has a one shot stop percentage on between 25% - 30%. And read somewhere that anything worth shooting with a pistol is worth shooting 3 times. There are lots of people around my neck of the woods that have to have a cannon to hunt squirrels.

The fallacy is that while most 25's are super snubs, 22lr, aren't all also snubs. Sure, you have a few people with the belt buckle sized guns, but many more are using a 4-6" barrel. That 22 starts gaining 'lost' energy fast as you start stacking inches on barrels.

I have a couple buddies that work in the medical field. One an Ent, the other in imaging.

Lots of 22lr doa's. The occasional 25 they see are treat and release. As in, tweezer and band aid style wounds. Worst one, guy was shot in he's point blank, bullet travelled under skin around outside of skull untill it ran out of power, inflicting a aggravating but immaterial wound.

25's have to have the stars lined up to become marginal... Just about every other caliber has to be handicapped to bring their performance DOWN to compair to the 25. Stock 25 in a long bbl gets even worse if you want an apples to apples comparison.

[RED BEAR]

Yes and I remember a police officer in California being shot in the chest at point blank with a 357 and losing part of her heart and then killing her attacker and surviving . does this mean that a 357 is a bad weapon? Or does it mean that strange things happen all the time. If you do not feel comfortable carrying a small caliber then by all means carry what you feel you need. Around here it gets pretty hot in summer and your not going to carry but so much in shorts and tank top. I want something to tuck in a pocket and not noticed. As I said before I have other calibers I can carry if I feel the need just haven't felt the need. Saying you must handicap other calibers to compare to the 25 is just wrong. You are trying to optimise the 22. Comparing the two with the same barrel is the only way to do it. Yes you could add barrel length but there are plenty of short barrel 22. So comparing the same type of guns is the only to do it.

[Soundguy]

I'm not trying to optimize the 22, just saying I'd never rely on a 25.

I have a few, I also have various 32acp and 380, some in virtually the same size range as a 25. Thus if the argument is you carry a 25 due to size, then I assure you, there are plenty of 32/380 choices that will leave you much better protected. My keltec p32 weighs LESS than an old raven I have. Thinner too!

I carry in jogging shorts in Florida summer no problem, get a open top wallet holster.

And yes.. Weird things happen. Just like real estate..its location, location, location + luck.

You need lots of one or both, and hope the target is on the dirty side of the stick on both.

[RED BEAR]

Plan on using as a back up. Am looking at a ppk copy in 32 acp. Am to old and set in my ways for a plastic gun. Just dount like them its a personal preference. They are probably fine guns just not for me. Not sure what you have smaller than a colt 25 but would be interested in something like that. I must admit you got me on the heat. Been there a few times and thought it felt like it was a little south of Hades. I also fully understand if you dount trust a 25 that's your choice I have no problem with one. Good luck and happy loading

[Motor]

1. Charge Weights in the range of 0.7 grains to 3.1 grains of Propellant are Very sensitive to charge weight variations.
2. Use of an electronic scale with an Accuracy and Resolution of less than +/- 0.01 grains is definitely contraindicated.
3. Personally, I use a Balance Beam type propellant scale with a marked resolution of 0.1 Grains but capable of interpolating settings to about 0.02 grains and accurate to about +/-0.003 grains.

4. I personally measure, Charge and seat one Charge/Case and bullet at a time to avoid double charging a Case/cartridge or failure to charge a case/cartridge. I then accumulate the seated Rounds in a Loading block and later Crimp the Loaded Cartridges as i have a Single Stage Press and it requires separate setup and adjustment for the seating and the crimping operations.

5. At the Charge Weights involved here, even a 3.0 grain charge, a 0.1 grain error is about 3 Percent change in total charge. Quite a bit more than enough to throw the fired bullets out of a target group.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Just how tight of a group are we expecting form this 25acp ? And does it really matter?

I've been loading since 1985 on a single stage press. I seat and crimp all of my pistol ammo in a single step. Roll and taper crimp. A taper crimp should not even be called a crimp. You are simply removing mouth flare. If you are going small enough to shave a bullet with the case mouth you simply are over doing it.

Besides, it's physically impossible to create a functional crimp with a taper crimp die.

I use loading blocks and visually inspect powder fill in casings before seating. If you can't see a double charge you need to visit your eye doctor. ;)

Motor

[Soundguy]

Yeah man, Florida summer is moist and hot. That's one of the reasons I went to a poly frame gun. You can be dripping in 10m.

Those were my first poly guns, keltecs. Eventually I picked up a glock 42 in 380. Not a glick person, but its a neat gun. I love.380. Got a SIG p230 & p238

[Chev. William]

SADLY, my Local Outdoor Shooting Ranges, The Commercial "Angeles Shooting Ranges" were Severely damaged in the recent fire along the North eastern border of the San Fernando Valley area of the city of Los Angeles ,CA.
The Range office building, along with many other Range buildings and structures were hit by the Intensely Hot, and fast moving, fire, leaving some Cement block walls standing but scorched.
The Reloading store and a few other structures Survived intact and the management says they WILL rebuild, but shooting is not possible at this time.

The other Range available to me locally is an indoor range in nearby Burbank, CA. Handguns only and no setting up chronographs there.

Regards,
Chev. William

[RED BEAR]

I have a couple of 380 also and really like them to. My main carry is a 7 shot fire star a little heavy for its size but in 25 years I have never had a single failure to fire or jam and I do mean not one. Shot every thing from hollow points semi wad cutters at all weights from 88 gn - 147 gun. That is why it is my main carry gun. Real sorry to hear about the range hope everything is back to normal soon.

[RED BEAR]

Also to motor I to use a single stage press and as for not seeing a double charge I almost agree if I don't have my Mr Magoo glasses on I might miss the whole bench!

[photomicftn]

This is a great read.

I thought I was a little wacky for .25 ACP with 1500 pieces of brass, and a modified Lyman Tru-Line Jr. with carbide dies to load for it. An MP mold provides the bullets. I shot my father's Baby Browning when I was 5 years old, and I loved it.

I now have that gun, plus another I bought years earlier, a couple of Berettas, a couple of Mauser 1910's, a Colt 1908, and a Seecamp (ex-wife's now). Something I haven't seen in this thread is how for some, it's really about the guns and shooting them, not so much the cartridge. All those I mentioned are dead reliable, and very well put together, so durability has never been an issue.

They're just plain fun. So, why not?

[RED BEAR]

Got my mp mold few days ago and think it is best thing since sliced bread. Hollow point and flat point both cast great. Look forward to trying some of there other molds.

[alamogunr]

This thread reads like something that should be in The Fouling Shot. I've never owned a .25 but do have a .32ACP Seecamp. Many criticize it as anemic but it carries easily in the pocket. Considering an ankle holster for it. Now I have to think about reloading for it.

[RED BEAR]

Hey go for it. The 25 is nowhere as bad as I had always heard. Since hornady trimmer wouldn't work for it ( even though they sell the shell holders for the 25 advertised as for the trimmer) had to come up with a way to trim them. Other than that it is just the same. The 32 should be no different. Will be casting and loading for 32 in the near future.

[RED BEAR]

And as for the 32 not doing the job look at hand loads stopping power the 32 rates as good as the 38 special for one shot stops. Not sure why it should not on paper maybe people who use a 32 shoot better. But the stopping power and ballistics by the inch have some interesting data.

[Chev. William]

I have a Lyman Universal Trimmer with a Power Stem (driven with a portable drill motor) that I now have an incentive to try out on my freshly purchased PPU over length .25ACP brass cases.
I had not Previously tried to adjust it down to this short a case length.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Mixed results delayed by my local weather and the fact that my "reloading shop" is on my Back Patio and it has a Northeasterly Exposure for Wind and Rain and Cold.
This winter has been in turns Windy, Rainy, and Cold by my local norms. Winds of 30 to 60 MPH, Rains that have caused mudslides in the area, but not at my location, and Cold that froze the Dew on the grass overnight.

the trimming results are not good, with trimmed lengths spread from .603" to .607" when trying for a constant length. It seems none of my presently owned trimmers is providing th eaccurate Trim length I want with any consistency.

Is it poor design for this short a case length or poor technique in my use of them?

More, and hopefully warmer, attempts later in the season may give answers.
Chev. William

[trapper9260]

I have read this whole post and like what is all was said.I was at a sale last year and there was a 25 there and I bid on it and the problem with it is that the grip was not right and it had alot of use any ways there was one guy in the end that wanted it more then I did because he kept on going more then I was going to pay for it. I just raise it on him. He end up pay $300 for it and my last bid was $275. I walk away. Glad i did because I would end up buy dies and molds and brass for it. So would cost me more in the end I have a 327 BH and a 32 acp P32 and had a Handi rifle done to shoot 327mag and everything else I shoot of 32's.

[mozeppa]

wow!

since i started this thread i have finished 10 k 25 acps ...shot some... now i'm down to a lowly 9,900 + a few.:-|

and i've loaded 1000 pieces of 22 TCM ....talk about your small bullets to wrap my fat fingers around!

and i've done 20,000 45 acp's ....need to go to the range!

AND 8000 .380's

still to go .....40 s&w...38 special ...357 mag ...38 S&W ...44 mag and 45 colt....30 carbine

all in all about 120k of ammo


got to get busy now!

[Chev. William]

A Use for "Undersized" .25ACP cases!
Swage them down to reform them into ".22 Ladybug" (CF equivalent of the .22Long rifle cartridge) as described by 'No Zombies" on this Forum.
The Design is the case length of the .22LR or .22Long; but is the diameter of the .22WRF or .22WMR Cartridges. It is intended to use an inside lubed Bullet rather than the Heeled Outside Lube one of the .22LR and .22Long.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[mozeppa]

a member here also came up with a great idea.

he used a specially profiled nipple on his muzzle loader, made to accept .25 acp brass that was cut down.
it was a tight fit over the nipple to keep out water... and cuts down the loading time as well.

[evoevil]

LOL ,,,,,, really. I had a 25 that could not shot through a 1/4" plywood. 1 clip and I toss it in the safe .......... 20 years ago.