Quest for store bought bullets

[charlie b]

So, I like shooting muzzle loaders, but, I do not cast my own bullets. Not a big deal for round ball, but, finding good bullets is a bit more difficult. This thread is for store bought bullets only. However much I'd love to shoot something like the Lee .500 pistol bullet or REAL, I am not able to currently.

My current rifle is a Lyman GPH in .50cal, yes, also a store bought gun (vs a hot rod, which I would not mind having at some point).

And, yes, I can be cheap. Until I get a lot better at this I am not a candidate for a Pedersoli Gibbs or a custom barrel for my rifle. So, 1/32 twist, .502 bore is what I have (shallow rifling). I am not against round balls and I do shoot them in my faster twist barrel (they like very low powder charges, 30gn Pyrodex Select).

Here are the bullets I have tried so far.

Buffalo Arms paper patch bullet, 450 gn .492 dia
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets/paper-patch-bullets/492-diameter-450-grain-swaged-paper-patch-pure-lead-cup-base-bullet-box-of-50-ppb492450?___SID=U

Buffalo Arms cast bullet, 550 gn .502 dia
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets/cast-bullets/460-diameter-up/502-550-grain-fn-hand-cast-grease-groove-bullets-20-1-spg-box-of-50-502550fn

Hornady Great Plains 385gn .50 cal
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets/muzzleloading-bullets/50-caliber-hornady-great-plains-385-grain-hb-hp-box-of-20-hor6620?___SID=U

Before telling me the 550gn bullet is too long for this twist/caliber, I know that. It was more an exercise to test the concept of a GG bullet vs paper patch. If it works I have a couple more experiments to try with them.

I have also had a bit of a difficult time getting my loading procedure correct. Thanks to some people in here I think I finally found what will work for me.

Last, this is not for hunting. I shoot paper almost exclusively. If I decide to hunt I will go out and get some Powerbelts (they do shoot very well). $1 per bullet is not that expensive for an Elk hunt. Anything less than Elk and I will be using round ball or arrows (shot from a longbow :) ).

So, now for some results.

[charlie b]

So, just for grins I dug out a few bullets after shooting today. Range was 50m. The two bullets were the 550 gn GG and the single was a 450gn PP. Both fired with 80gn Pyrodex Select. Dirt berm. The GG bullets were 510 and 496 gn. The PP was 420gn.

Besides the serious deformation what I was interested in was the condition of the base. I have changed from lubed felt wads to veggie wads (also from BACO). More on that shortly, but, I wanted to see if the bases were ok. Short answer is yes, the edges are nice and sharp.

Second was the PP bullet cavity. I had always been curious about the paper tail that is tucked up in there, ie, does it distort the skirt. Answer looks to be no. The cavity shows no impression of the paper tail.

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[charlie b]

So, shooting results.

All of my shooting today was with the veggie wads. Why veggie? Cause I could not find store bought poly wads for the .50cal and until I tried some of them I did not want to pay for a punch. Thanks to you guys who have recommended the veggie wads. I really like them for a couple of reasons.

I changed my shooting procedure based on what some of you guys do. Previously I have swabbed between shots (wet and dry), loaded powder, wad, bullet and fired. Wad was the 1/8" lubed felt wad. Shooting was OK but I had a lot of hang fires unless I also swabbed out the patent breech. Not ideal for me. I tried shooting without swabbing, but, the powder fouling would tear the paper on PP bullets.

So, I still swab. But, I first load the power, seat the veggie wad, then swab (one wet one dry), then load the bullet and shoot. This is how I loaded all of the bullets fired today except for three (I will get to them later).

Loads. The Hornady and Cast GG bullets were sized to .501 (using Lee push through die). The PP bullets were patched with onion skin, double layer and then run through the sizer (it just kind of forms the paper, it does not 'size' anything). All of the bullets are almost a free drop in the barrel. The weight of the ramrod moves the bullet all the way down the bore. One thing I might try in the future is a .502 die (my bore is .502).

All of these were fired with 80gn of Pyrodex Select RS powder.

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Yes, a busy target. Pay attention to the numbers next to the holes (I don't know why the forum rotated the picture).

Numbers are the order in which the bullets were fired. First the PP. Aimpoint was the lower X. 1 was from a clean barrel. 2&3 were close enough together that I declared my loading procedure successful. So, on to the GG.

4, 5, 6, 7 showed great promise...as long as I did my job. I was jerking a little. Note that 8 was so bad I marked it. Horrible shot. I am a bit embarrassed. :) No 9 is notable because I did NOT wipe before loading the bullet.

This was a big step for me. I had always heard about the Brits using the Gibbs muzzle loaders against the breech loaders. They specifically noted that they did not need to wipe between shots like the Americans. So, I wanted to try it that way. I think it will work.

FYI I also think one reason it works is the veggie wads. They fit very tightly in the barrel so my theory is they scrape the barrel fouling down the bore. The bullet then has a relatively clean surface.

[charlie b]

Here are a couple of closer views of the bottom half.
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And the top one
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So, on to the Hornady. I loaded all of these without wiping. Load powder, veggie wad, bullet, shoot.

10 was badly jerked on my part. Still 80gn of Pyrodex RS. Aimed at top X for 11,12,13. Wide spread. Just for grins I wondered what would happen if I increased the powder charge. So, 14,15,16 were with 100gn (aimed at lower X). Voila! Better group!

Why? Don't know, but, it may have something to do with the rifling twist, or, it is not dead soft lead? Don't know. Makes me think I might want to bump up the powder charge for the other bullets. But, I am a bit leery of using 100gn with the 450gn and 550gn bullets. Not sure Lyman would approve of that kind of abuse :)

[pietro]

.

Very interesting - Thanks for posting your results. :)

.

[charlie b]

So, last was to shoot some round balls. I am using very low powder charges. Why? Simple, the fast rifling twist. I have tried shooting with 80gn and the balls fly all over the place. They will stay on a paper plate at 50yd but that's not good for me. So, I figured if they shoot well with a 1/56 or so twist at 80gn, then at 1/32 I would try half the load. Roughly give the same spin rate on the ball. So, 40gn was tried.

I did clean the barrel before shooting the RB. First shot with clean barrel was off target (ie, a fouling shot).

Next three are the holes near the top with an R next to them. A little better. So, I figured why not try less powder. Next were 30gn loads. First shot was jerked. Next two were good for my part. The three holes are labeled R. I suspect the top one was my jerked shot. Much better. I will try some other loads next and see how things progress.

[charlie b]

Oh, just FYI. Firing a .50cal round ball with these light powder loads in a 9lb rifle is like shooting a .22 rimfire.

I am shooting at 50yd for now simply because of my eyesight. I don't want a fuzzy target to be a factor in determining load performance.

Later on I will go out to further distances to see what happens.

[charlie b]

PS yes, in the future I will change the target more often :)

[mooman76]

You might try a thicker patch for RBs, that way you can increase your charges more if you want. Some people like the patches so tight you need a mallet to get them started down the bore. I myself am not aadvacate of Pounding RBs down the bore but then again I'm not trying to get every fraction od an inch out of my targets. Sound like you are putting allot of good work into getting the most out of your loads.

[charlie b]

I can increase the RB powder charge easily, they just don't seem to shoot well. I do assume it is due to the fast twist. Right now the light loads fit what I want for shooting RB, low cost and light recoil with decent accuracy.

The GPH has shallow rifling, .502 bore and .510 grooves. I am using .490 RB and .010 patches, exact groove fill. The fired patches show no signs of gas 'erosion'. I don't need a mallet to load, but, it takes quite a bit of force on the ramrod to seat them.

[PtMD989]

I tried the hornady Great Plains 385 gr with 100 grains (by volume ) T7 ff with out any wads and I was all over the target.
In a 1/28 twist.

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[charlie b]

try the veggie wads
made a difference for me

[charlie b]

or have you tried less powder?

[PtMD989]

How do veggie wads compare to cardboard wads (.020) ? I haven't tried less powder. My local sports outfitter made those suggestions also.


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[charlie b]

The veggie wads I get from BACO are .060 and they are a tight fit in the bore. It takes more force to seat the wad than it does to seat the bullets. I think one reason they work for me is they 'scrape' the barrel of fouling so the bullets can be loaded without swabbing. I think poly wads would do just as well or better but currently I don't have a punch to make them.

I just measured them and they are between .520 and .530 in dia. Makes sense since many .50 cal barrels have .520 groove dia.

I'd try the wads first, then try changing powder loads.

[johnson1942]

having measured many a 50 cal bore, most are .508 groove diam, never ever saw a 520 or 530. maybe colrain, sorry to state facts as you plainly stated in you original post you wanted not of that. those that know me know i deal in facts and i was going to leave this one alone but you are dealing with men who want to shoot. most good fiber wads or poly wads are about .512 in diam. volkswagon size groups at 50 yards is not something to boast about but you can if you want. remember what you say here goes to a lot of guys who are trying to learn. lets keep it real and what ever your motives are. WOW.

[charlie b]

So, first, am not boasting about big groups. Just putting up what I am getting with the loads listed.

Yep, I am probably wrong when i said 'most'. I do know that my barrel is as Lyman lists it. .502 bore, .510 groove. They list their round ball barrels as .502 bore and .520 groove. .50 cal breech load barrels that I have measured are .500 bore and .508 groove. I consider .004 groove depth to be a shallow groove design.

The veggie wads I measured with a dial vernier caliper are between .520 and .530. I only measured 10, across different portions of their circumference. No portion was measured below .520 and none above .530. Those are the store bought ones from BACO so cannot comment on any others.

So, I will continue to post what I get with the loads I shoot. You can find fault with that if you so desire. And, no I am not and never have been a competition shooter. I have fired many sub moa groups with rifles in my past so I do know that I am capable of that level of accuracy on a good day. Some days I am not that good.

I will take any facts that anyone wants to post in this thread as long as it is shooting with factory bullets. I am willing to try just about anything, as long as I can buy it from someone. Like I said before, I cannot cast right now so am limited in the bullets that I can use. No, not inexperienced at casting, just not an expert. In past years I've only cast tens of thousand, certainly not the hundreds of thousand (or millions) some of you may have cast in your lives.

[johnson1942]

do what you want and that is your right but dont lead guys who are learning down the wrong path. you seem to not care for facts or anything that leads to good shooting. throw all the pricey store bought bullet down range you want but most here are on a budget and want better groups better than those you could hardly cover with a grain scoop shovel. i dont want a fight with you, i just have the shooter that use castboolits for information in mind. please be respectful of them, we for the most part dont seem to have the money or time to waste on just throwing lead down range with out any thought to the science of accuracy. again do what you want but dont push it as gospel.

[charlie b]

Sorry but I don't 'push' anything. Just posting what I get. I guess I am not sure what facts I am ignoring. Is it that some others do really well with felt wads? Yep, they do. I am not disputing that. I just did not have good luck with them. Is it the loading procedure? Yep, some get good results doing it differently. Yep my groups are still larger than I'd like, that's why I am still trying different things.

I did see a distinct improvement when I went from swabbing before loading powder to swabbing after powder and wad are loaded. Others may get different results. I also noticed that swabbing may not be needed at all for what I am doing. That will wait for more shooting sessions. As I stated, a goal of mine is to not have to swab at all between shots. I may not reach that goal but I will try it anyway.

As to pricey store bought, yep, that's what I can shoot right now. I do like to cast and used to do it when I needed to save the money shooting rifle and pistol. I wish I could cast and shoot some of the bullets some of you are using. Would give me a lot more choices to work with.

Again, if you think I should try something different that I have not tried yet go ahead and suggest it.

And again, I do not propose that everyone do what I am doing. I have taken information from many different people in here and am trying to narrow down a process that works for me.

[54bore]

charlie b, The only factory bullet that i have had decent luck with in my .50 Fast twist is the BACO .492-450s, i tried the 550s and they didn't do very well. Its to bad you are not set up to Cast, that opens up many new windows! Another thing you might try is Pyrodex P, i know Idahoron uses it with good luck. I personally use real Black since it is easy for me to get, i prefer Swiss 2 or 3F and have had really good luck with it. Another thing you might try is pre weighing your charges with a beam scale, use your volume measure and throw several charges to get an average of what Volume is weighing in weight grains, then pre weigh 8-10 charges and put them in little vial/containers for your range session, Shoot a Group with the charges you pre weighed on a beam scale and see if you notice a difference? I personally pre weigh all of my charges per range session. Try and take out as many variables as possible! Also pay attention to your nipple, heavy bullets and large powder charges eat through a nipple fairly quickly depending on the nipple (about 30 shots) I recently switched from Oxyoke RMC Stainless nipples to Ampco/Treso nipples and am getting considerable more use out of the Ampco/Treso's. The .060 Vegetable Fibre over powder wads are AWESOME! If you are using good consistent powder, and create a good solid repeatable gas seal, and bullets weighing within 1 grain of eachother, Accuracy should follow

[charlie b]

Thanks Lewis.

I will be shooting some more of the 450gn PP bullets. I like that size/weight and would even go for some 400gn if they made them. I also think 550gn is too big for this twist, but, I am trying those GG bullets just as a lark. At 50m I didn't have any sign of keyholes but I bet at 200m and maybe even 100m they will start to tumble.

I am using the Ampco/Tresco nipples. I have two so am monitoring the one in the gun to see when it starts to erode. So far the same drill bit will go through both the used one and new one.

I am also weighing charges on most of my loads. I use an electronic scale so the charges are all within .1gn. I say most of the loads because when I try a change at the range, as I did with the Hornady bullets, I will use the measure. Not as accurate I know. But, in that case weighed 80gn charges were horrible and measured 100gn charges were less than half the size. I will try them with weighed charges next time. I also do not weigh RB charges yet.

And, it is due to your experience that I am trying the veggie wads. I agree with your conclusions.

Another thing I have not tried yet is the single wrap paper system. That is also on my 'list' of things to try.

Keep in mind this is a relatively new gun and I have less than 200rd through it. This was my first range session with this gun where I was carefully monitoring what was going on with each load. As such I am also going to try using the felt wads again in a more careful back to back comparison.

What I have not liked before is swabbing before loading the powder. I just did not like it. Loading the powder, wad and then swabbing was much better for me. YMMV

Now I will try to focus on just a couple of variables per range session to see if I can get the groups down smaller. Yes, my goal is to get 1" groups at 100yds.

[54bore]

Yes, my goal is to get 1" groups at 100yds.


charlie b, You will get there! You are on the right track, keep hammering away, i am confident you will find it!! Each rifle has their own quirks/likes dislikes, If you can get some Pyro P powder i would definitely give that a try, 80 Grains of it

[charlie b]

Yeah, that is on my list too. I am also going to try to get some real black. Hard to do here as the city I am in now has decided it is illegal to own or sell it.

[charlie b]

So, one other thing I found on another forum. From a long range competition shooter.

Have any of you tried a veggie/card wad, then lubed felt, then the bullet? His combination was for a Gibbs shooting PP bullet.

[54bore]

So, one other thing I found on another forum. From a long range competition shooter.

Have any of you tried a veggie/card wad, then lubed felt, then the bullet? His combination was for a Gibbs shooting PP bullet.

I feel the .060 Thou Vege fibre wad is doing everything needed, The lubed felt wad might help some with fouling? I can't see that this would hurt anything, worth a try i suppose

[charlie b]

Yeah, I kinda think it might be overkill, but, it was from Art Fleener.

[charlie b]

OK, so out to the range today.

I did find out that I am at my limits with the sight inserts I used. Std front post and larger rear aperture. I need to change the rear aperture to something my eyes can work with. I found I can hold to within 1 or 1 1/2" at 70yd but that is about it. I need to take the time to find the right combination for me. I have the Lee Shavers inserts for the front. Need to find a better rear aperture, maybe pay the money for a Merit.

So pictures. Note that I had some shooting issues :) Believe it or not, I called the fliers as I jerked the trigger.

First were the .492dia 450 gn PP bullets from Buffalo.
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Then I went to the .501 dia 550 gn grease groove bullets. Out to this range they still seem to be stable. Not sure if they will remain stable at 100yd or further.
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Last was the Hornady Great Plains 385gn. These really seem to like the 100gn of powder
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Yes, two bullets seem to have made one slightly enlarged hole

Note that no wiping was done at all, even between bullet types. All had a .060 veggie wad and a Oxyoke Wonder Wad (lubed felt). The additional lubed felt was was new to this batch of shots.

I did have a couple of delayed ignitions (very slight) but that did not seem to open up the groups.

All loads were weighed. Bullets were not weighed. I guess I need to do that next just to make sure of any variance.

So, after experimenting with different sights I will go out to 100yd.

[charlie b]

PS in case it is not obvious, the grid is 1" squares.