Magnum primer ?

[jack19512]

I am casting bullets for a Ruger .357 mag and a Ruger 44 mag and as of now I am not using magnum primers and wanted to know if anyone knows if I really need to be using the magnum primers or will the regular primers be OK? If I need to be using the magnum primers can you tell me what is the main difference I will see from using them? Thanks

[billyb]

some powders call for magnum primers,some do need the extra heat, check your reloading book and look for loads for the type of powder you use in the 357. Bill

[docone31]

I reload with Herco, Blue Dot, IMR4227, IMR3031, surplus 4895. To date, I have not found a difference.
Outside of those powders, I am not sure.
I used to be scrupulous in matching primers to load data. One day, I ran out of Magnum Primers and I wanted to go shooting. I loaded up with standard primers and made a day out of it. I did not really notice any lack of accuracy.
Outside of the powders I mentioned, I have no experience. With those powders, it did not seem to make a difference.

[44man]

I do NOT use magnum primers in the .44 even with 296. Not in the .45 Colt either. But the 357 might need them for accuracy with the slower powders.
In some cases the mag primer has too much force and will move the boolit out of the case before the powder gets going good. It is better to have heat without the pressure.
My .44 groups triple with mag primers. Been fooling with these things since 1956 and results have always been the same.
My .475 needs the LP mag primer for accuracy.
This is something you need to test for yourself and not believe the books.

[missionary5155]

I have used some heavy loads in my 41 mags ... 296, Blue dot, 4227, H-10, and not needed mag primers.

[AZ-Stew]

Elmer Keith's load for the .44 Magnum was 22 grains of (the OLD 2400, not current manufacture), his 245gr cast SWC bullet and a STANDARD large pistol primer.

I've experimented with magnum primers in the .44 and always found that accuracy suffered compared to standard primers. I find no need for them in .41 or .357 magnums, either. The only cartridge I load that works well with magnum primers is the 7mm Rem. Magnum, using the discontinued H-870 slow-buring ball powder. I get consistent sub-MOA groups with it using 160 grain bullets.

Regards,

Stew

[Larry Gibson]

Let me throw this out since I've been loading for the .44 magnum since '68. You mention "regular" primers but don't say which. If you are using Remington, Federal or CCI primers then their respective regular primer is the one to use with the powders you mention. There is a real danger of a hanf fire on minimal ignition with the regular pirmers under H110 or 296. The cast bullet can be driven into the forcing cone and the cylinder revolved for another shot. Not a good thing! I have personally had it happen with 357, 41 and 44 magnum revolvers. If it goes click with no bang and no recoil then stop what your doing and look. Do not just assume a misfire and pull the hammer back (or pull the trigger on a DA) to fire again. Some may not have had this problem, that is fortunate for them. I have and others have (with dissasterous results). Use magnum primers with those two powders as is recommended by all the manufacturers and the loading manuals. There is a reall reason for their recommendation.

Winchester WLR primers are another story. They are made for use with ball powders and work fine with all the other primers too. I have chronographed many, many loads since '74 and find them to be as consistant in internal ballistics and accuracy as any of the other primers, magnum or regular.

Larry Gibson

[hydraulic]

I load 41 grs of 4831 under the Lee 190 gr. bullet with standard primers. Ran into a deal at a gun show and bought a lifetime supply of CCI Magnum rifle and Magnum pistol primers. Magnum rifle primers shoot the same as standard in my 03A3. Loaded up 100 for the M-l and found that I had seated Large Magnum Pistol primers, so, fearing a slam fire with the M-l, I shot them up in the 03A3. Can't tell any difference between Magnum and Standard Large Rifle Primers or Large Magnum Pistol Primers. All bullets go through the same hole. (Smile).

[chaos]

I load ALL of my 44 mag loads with either Unique for cast or 296 for jacketed. They get the winchester WLP primer regardless... Nary a hiccup.

[Heavy lead]

I agree with the use of large pistol magnum primers with 296, H110 and Lil' Gun. Use them in 475, 45, 44 and 41, small pistol magnum in 357 with Lil' Gun especially if it's cold out. With the 454 and 296 I use WSR, these are plenty hot enough being rifle primers meant for ball powder. I have pretty much stopped using 296 and H110 simply because in the cold I have found it to be erratic. I have not noticed Lil' Gun to be. Mostly my lighter loads all use Unique always with a standard pistol primer (usually a Federal)

[mike in co]

well to be the odd ball my loads for my super redhawk work well with std cci primers, with great accuracy, but when i went to my 20" marlin carbine i tested both std and mag primers. both shot well, but the mag primers out shot the std primers by a noticeable difference. i'm guessing the long bbl, no cylinder gap has some influence on the burn.

mike in co

[44man]

I have had 8 .44 mags since 1956 and other then testing loads, none has used a mag primer. I use Fed 150's. My current SBH is close to 58,000 rounds with 296 and standard primers. All of my friends also use the Fed 150. There has NEVER been a hiccup!
I have tested in cold weather in Ohio and here in WV and mag primers still give me larger groups and it has not been cold enough to affect ignition. It has to be REAL cold before I switch.
In around 54 years of reloading, I have never had a hangfire or a primer failure yet have heard of them with factory loads. I knew a fellow that was shot in the knee when his friend was shooting a TC contender in .44. The guy had a hangfire and turned to say it didn't go off, then it did. Factory load! Mag primer!
Most hangfires are due to reducing the mainspring force for a lighter trigger pull. An absolute no-no.
Other things can cause it like seating primers so hard they break inside or not fully seating so the firing pin has to seat the primer first.
A blocked flash hole from tumbling compound is bad.
Those machines that load 500 rounds an hour can also leave an empty case. No powder and a boolit out in the barrel!
If I EVER had a hangfire or a failure to fire, I would review my loading practices or the gun, not the primer.
296 is like any other powder, it just needs fire to light.
I would think that after about 250,000 .44 rounds in all of the guns I had, that the standard primer would have shown some trouble, but no, they have NOT. That includes years of CCI and Remington primers too.
The WLP primer works decent. Seems as if the pressure is not as high as the Fed 155 or other mag primers. It is a good choice.
I didn't mention that Lil'gun sucks, poor accuracy and a super hot gun! The stuff belongs in a .410! :roll: Shoot a bunch and you can solder plumbing with the gun. It DOES go BANG! :mrgreen:

[dwtim]

You might need a mag primer if you're using pygmy bullets and slow powders in the .357. The only time I've had an ignition problem (not caused by the gun or my loading practices) involved a 125 grain bullet and AA #9 in the .357. Aside from that, I use standard primers across the board -- these include Remington, Federal, CCI and Winchester.

[Jim]

When I started experimenting with WC820, I learned real quick to light it with mag primers. I recently resupplied and now use nothing but mags.

[Potsy]

I use Winchesters (that are supposed to work with standard and magnum loads) anytime I use any pistol powder slower than 2400.
Having said that, I don't burn much 296 anymore because I don't load that warm in my .45 colt and .357 because I didn't care for the recoil of absolute upper end loads and I've read (I think it was Elmer Keith) that standard primers are kinder to plain base cast bullets than magnums.
I usually run H-Universal in mid-range loads and 2400 when I crank it up a little.

[felix]

Primers are used for ignition only. If your powder choice, quantity and quality, meet your accuracy standards with a certain load (boolit resistance), that primer is fine. There is nothing more to it than that. Every brand and type of primer is suspect until proven on the line. The saying that I only use magnum primers for powder X is a mistake in logic. Powder can change burning characteristics over time. For example, more burning moisture means slower powder, and the converse holds true as well. Same with temps, etc. ... felix

[44man]

Right Felix! What some don't understand is the boolit jump in the revolver. With a rifle or single shot you have rifling resistance right away.
High pressure primers WILL move a revolver boolit out of the brass too soon. Use bad dies and accuracy will never be had. Every cartridge has a different capacity depending on the boolit movement.
Same is even more true for real light boolits.
Increase case capacity like the .475 and .500's, increase boolit weight and the mag primer works better. Some even need a rifle primer.
Since the .357 uses small primers, the mag primer is best in most cases.
The .44 and .45 are the ONLY two that seem to benefit from standard primers using 296. Of course, none of the other powders even call for a mag primer in the books. To claim 296 NEEDS a mag primer in these calibers is based on WHAT?
I have tested standard LP primers in the .475 without a single problem with ignition. The only thing was accuracy was worse.
If the .44 is giving you ignition problems, better review things.

[carpetman]

Larry Gibson--"There is a real danger of hang fire under regular primers with H110 or 296." You've personally had it happen with .357,.41 and 44 magnums." I sure hope this repetition was intentional. Why were you trying to repeat it?

[felix]

Generally, follow this pattern. Chart from Precision Shooting, this month. Keep in mind that case length has precedence over diameter when determining volume. Longer cases demand more primer force. ... felix

[felix]

Well, primers should not produce any force at all, but only heat. Be that as it may, 44Man is correct because of the force generated by different primers playing havoc. It is too bad that primers cannot be made like spark plugs, and serve as a "heat range" in application. Spark timing is just as important in guns as it is in cars. ... felix

[BABore]

Remington has (had ?) something like that married with an electrical contact type trigger assy. Bet it was all the rage with remote guide, outfitters and the like.:-D

[jack19512]

I appreciate all of the replies. I should have included more info in my original post. So far the only powder I have used is 2400 and Unique. I have had no problems with ignition. One of the reasons I asked this question was because I am not getting the accuracy from either my .357 mag or the 44 mag and didn't know if not using a magnum primer had anything to do with the accuracy problem I am having. I am trying a GC bullet and PB bullet both 240 gr. cast and sized .430 from straight wheel weight for the 44 mag and a 158 gr. SWC PB for the .357. I am sure it must be something I am or am not doing, I don't believe both of these new revolvers could be bad shooters.

[felix]

Oh, yes, they can be both bad shooters! But with your displayed experience, you are prolly on the correct assumption path. Juggle the diameter of the boolits a little bigger, and see what happens. ... felix

[Potsy]

Jack,
Don't know the particulars on your loads, but in my .45 colt, groups with 2400 tightened up, from about 3-4 inches @ 25 yards to around 2-3 inches by quenching cast WW bullets (Lyman 452424). Groups with Universal run around the same 2-3 inches either way (Sorry I cant be more specific about groups, but I'm not the worlds greatest pistol shot with or without a rest). I run 21 grains 2400 for about 1225 fps, 9 grains of Universal gives right at 1000. I think the harder bullet responds better to the higher pressure load.
I've got a 50th Anniv. Blackhawk that's been grouping poorly (4-5 inches) with a Lyman Keith type bullet and 14 grains of 2400 for 1300 fps, the next batch I try will be quenched.
I'm probably going to try them next week, I'll let you know how it turns out.

[jack19512]

I've got a 50th Anniv. Blackhawk that's been grouping poorly (4-5 inches) with a Lyman Keith type bullet and 14 grains of 2400 for 1300 fps, the next batch I try will be quenched.





That's what my 44 mag is, the 50th anniversary Blackhawk. Below is a target that I shot just today. Six shots were from the .357 mag and 12 shots from the 44 mag. You can see how bad they are both shooting to the left even after adjusting the rear sight blade quite a bit. The really bad thing is these groups were only fired from about 25 feet. [smilie=b: Forget about 25 or 50 yards! :confused:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01424.jpg

[jack19512]

I should say also that I reload and cast for about 7 rifles of different calibers and they have all done well. Also I use the same 158 gr. cast bullet that I am shooting out of my Ruger .357 in my wifes 38 caliber Taurus revolver and they do good in it also. :-?

[Potsy]

What are you loading powder and charge wise?
That won't explain the shooting to the left thing, but it might help to know in terms of how hard your bullets might need to be.
As far as it shooting left, I'd keep crankin' right until I ran out of adjustment. At that point you know it's either you or something's crooked.

[Bass Ackward]

Irregardless of powder speed: your dies, the way you prep your cases, (or not) and the diameter and weight of the bullets that you intend to use, and the pressure level you intend to run will determine what primer works the best in any cartridge.

The question is best asked and answered by the gun and the target.

[Boerrancher]

Jack,

By looking at your target, and this is just a WAG, I would say the vertical movement of the shots is recoil, and the horizontal could very well be trigger pull. You can test this theory by lightening your loads to where they are nice and mild, and also by aiming at the target with the gun unloaded and pulling the trigger. If you see your sights pointing to the left of the target a bit, or you get some wobble of the muzzle it is trigger pull. I don't know what you experience level is for handguns, but I know that I have been shooting them for nearly 30 years and if I don't shoot one ever week or so I have to retrain myself. I am just not that great a pistol shot, and heaven forbid you let me shoot a handgun that isn't one of mine. In those instances the safest place to be is the target.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[jack19512]

You can test this theory by lightening your loads to where they are nice and mild, and also by aiming at the target with the gun unloaded and pulling the trigger.







I actually thought about trying lighter loads and will do that but yesterday I actually shot a pretty decent group with my 44 mag and the funny thing is, and this surprised me but the load that shot pretty decent was a pretty stout load.

I think I will have to invest in some different grips at least for the 44 mag because it was not pleasant shooting 12 rounds of this load. It actually hurt my hands. I have been experimenting with the .357 and 44 mag almost daily and have not shot a decent group with the .357 yet.

The 44 mag from my experimentation has shown it definitely prefers a GC bullet over a PB bullet but the mold I have for the .357 is a PB mold, so my thinking is I will have to order me another mold so I can use a GC on the .357 as well. Thanks for all of the replies.

[jack19512]

What are you loading powder and charge wise?






So far I have only used in the 44 mag up to 9 grains of Unique and up to 22 grains of 2400. GC and PB bullets.

In the .357 up to 7 grains of Unique and up to 13.5 grains of 2400. PB bullets only.

[jack19512]

I don't know what you experience level is for handguns, but I know that I have been shooting them for nearly 30 years and if I don't shoot one ever week or so I have to retrain myself.







I am not new to revolvers and in the past did quite well with them but for about the last 10 years had only semi-autos until I got into casting and wanted some revolvers to shoot my cast bullets out of.

[runfiverun]

22gr 2400 that is a stout load alright.
the primer is always the last thing i change when working a load.
but my 2400 load does use magnum primers and my h-110 uses winchester.
my batch of 2400 burns very clean with magnum primers. course i am 3 grains below that load. up there.

[44man]

I noticed the comment about gas checks shooting better.
I was a firm believer in using them and was disappointed with some great boolit molds I bought that did not use them, that is until I worked with them and found they shoot exactly the same as one with a GC.
I think you will find that it is the overall design of the boolit that is more important and if the PB does not shoot good, it is because you gun does not like the design.
I have been making more PB molds to get away from the cost of checks and have been getting as good or better groups with them.
Jack, I am going to make a WAG and say you are using semi wadcutters too! That is the one boolit where a tiny difference in design will make a huge difference, either a decent group or another that will not shoot at all.
I used to have good luck with the original 429421 long ago but am the first to admit, I didn't really know what a revolver could do or how much accuracy I could ring out of them. Back in 56 and 57, I shot for fun only and mostly offhand at cans, rocks and woodchucks.
However, the old 358156 HP was capable of hitting real small targets at 100 yd's. I had an 8-3/8 S&W with the first Bushnell pistol scope on it. Small was frozen orange juice cans.
Sadly, I sold those molds. Can't find any as good any more.
Seems like the factories lost the original specs and think if it looks like a rose it should smell like one.
Another suggestion is to stay away from bevel base boolits. I cut groups in half by removing the bevel from several molds. They are Lee semi wadcutters. I have an RCBS .44 semi too that shoots OK.
However I have tried about 20 different ones in 4 calibers that shoot like yours. Once you work loads and powders, if the boolit won't shoot, try a different one. Don't worry about a gas check.

[Bass Ackward]

A fella that believes in GCs probably tends to shoot short barrels and visa verse.

A fella that likes GCs tends to shoot several mixes vs a guy who molds rocks or gets used to only one.

A guy that wants to shoot any powder he can get his hands on tends to prefer a check.


So iffin you're shootin 100 or 200 yard barrels in order to get good groups, you most likely don't need a check. :grin: And if your bullets are already harder than the check, why bother? :grin:

[jack19512]

22gr 2400 that is a stout load alright.






My mistake, the powder was IMR 4227. Don't know why I have 2400 on my mind. :confused: It must be a sign I want to take a break from these frustrating revolvers and shoot my 45/70 some. :)

[jack19512]

I am going to make a WAG and say you are using semi wadcutters too!






Yes, I am using them for both the .357 and the 44 mag. I would like to get away from the gas checks myself if I can.

[44man]

You have given me another clue---4227! [smilie=1: Both of them too, IMR and H. I started with that powder when I first joined IHMSA years ago because a lot of shooters used it in the .44. I shot some real nice groups testing it but I shot slow and walked to the targets a lot. I thought I had it made for the first shoot, WOW what a disaster! :confused: It got so bad as the gun warmed I had to inspect the Ruger. I swore something bad happened. Cold gun, dead center hit. From then on the shots would walk down and then off the bottom of every target. At 200 meters I was 16 clicks higher then my normal setting and still hit 50 or 60 yd's short.
Primers flattened more with each shot as the heat increased the pressure and increased the velocity making me hit lower. The increased changes in velocity also will effect windage. I reduced to 21 gr's for the next shoot with no change in results.
I switched to 296 and never looked back.
2400 is dirty and never gave me the accuracy I wanted. It's OK for most shooting.
However the .357 Maximum just loved 4227 but it will never go in a .44 again.
I don't know how it works in the .357.
Try Blue Dot in the .357.
Get some 296 for the .44! Or H110. :drinks:
Oh yeah, I wondered why all those .44 shooters cussed so much on the shooting line! :mrgreen:

[jack19512]

I switched to 296 and never looked back.







I was actually looking in my reloading manual today and I realized the 296 was recommended as far as accuracy goes. I put it on my reloading supplies list. The only thing I know to do at this point is to try magnum primers and other powders. If I have no success after this then I will have no choice but to try another bullet. I want to do everything I can and send the revolvers back only as a last resort.

[44man]

Jack, I use Fed 150's in the .44 and .45 with all powders. Every time I tested mag primers my groups tripled in size.
The most important thing after that is to have EVEN case tension on the boolits. When you feel a slight change in the pressure it takes to seat boolits, you will lose accuracy. RCBS dies gave me the worst accuracy and Hornady dies give me the best.
I still have a problem now and then because I never kept track of my brass, some have been shot forever and some only a few times and they are all mixed. I need all new brass! [smilie=1:
Range pickups and mixed brass is really bad for accuracy too.
One other thing that will cause a loss is a weak mainspring. I don't recall if you bought the gun new or used. I used to change my spring every year when shooting IHMSA when accuracy would start to fall off. Now I just use Wolfe springs.
Some guys put a lighter spring in to lighten the trigger pull, not good. A faster spring is OK.
Ruger makes nasty springs and they take a set. Even the Mark II magazine sucks. Keep 5 shells in it for a few days and it will not feed all the .22's anymore until I stretch the spring.
If you get everything working you should be able to shoot 2" or under at 50 yd's all day with some groups at or under 1" when brass tension happens to match.

[runfiverun]

read what 44 man said carefully: i know we had this discussion before and come to the same conclusion, 4227 is a fine hunting powder, when the temps are down and only one or 2 shots at a time are being taken it is wonderful.
but if target shooting ,or on hot days it sucks.
2400 or 296/h110, blue dot[which suffers in the cold,,,,imo] or even 1680, will be better choices.
even a titegroup load will be preferable.

[jack19512]

I don't recall if you bought the gun new or used







I bought them new. I have never had any trouble getting my cast bullets to shoot at least decent in anything I tried until these revolvers came along. All of my brass is new. I am wanting to take the 44 mag on a deer hunt this year if I can get it lined out. :)

[44man]

Jack, I will list the .44 loads I use for you and hope it helps.

320 WLN LBT, 21.5 gr's 296
310 Lee C430-310-RF, 21.5 gr's 296
Ranch Dog TLC432-265-RF, 22 gr's 296 (Felix lube)
My own 330 gr WLN, 21 gr's 296
Hornady 240 XTP, 24 gr's 296
Hornady & Speer 240 Sil, 23 gr's 296
Hornady 300 gr XTP, 20.5 gr's 296
Fun load, RCBS 245 gr semi wadcutter, 7 gr's Unique

All use the Fed 150 primer.
All cast use Felix or Carnauba Red lube except store bought LBT's.
I am slowly cutting the last of my scrap aluminum into blocks. When they are done I am going to make a 300 to 320 gr WFN PB for the .44.
I usually size .431" but even .430" and .432" will shoot. I have gone to .434" with a change in the expander and didn't see any difference as long as they would chamber.
Try the Lee 310 or the Ranch Dog, they are cheap molds but both will shoot and are thunder on deer. Don't worry about the grease grooves on the RD, just lube with Felix, not the LLA.

[44man]

Jack, have you slugged the bore and throats yet? Or at least run a tight patch on a jag through the barrel to see if there is a tight spot where the barrel is threaded in. Some need lapped right there.
One of our smart members has a super way to lap a revolver so you don't lap the throats too. (I was too dumb to think of it! [smilie=1:) You need a boolit of 50-50 WW's and pure, air cooled. The load should be a couple of gr's of Bullseye, just enough for the boolit to get out of the barrel. ( You can watch the boolit come out, it's fun.) Then use a "Q" tip to lightly coat the bore just ahead of the forcing cone with bore lapping compound. Work some into the grooves too but don't use too much, just a film. Shoot one shot, remove the cylinder, swab and dry the bore to get out dirt and to make sure the boolit left. Coat again and shoot one again. Do this about 10 to 20 shots and clean so you can check for a tight spot again.
Don't use a slotted rod end to clean either, use a jag and make sure you use a muzzle protector.
If you don't feel a tight spot when you first check it or if it is barely felt, you don't have to bother lapping, just shoot a bunch.

[copdills]

I have always used what the powder call for in my speer manuel, but often wondered if I could use a regular primer this is an interesting thread:coffee:

[docone31]

I have used Large Pistol Primers in my .44 mag., with 4227, Herco, Blue Dot. I never had an issue.
Now, mind you, it was with my Super Blackhawk, so accuracy was not that predictable.
As far as the primers went, I never had perforation, squibs, or noticed any loss in performance.
I did win a few IMHSA matches with that hog leg.

[44man]

I agree that the SBH can be touchy but I firmly believe the .44 brass has something about it that makes it hard to be totally able to shoot tight groups every time. My SRH was more accurate then my SBH but would have the same problems with 3 shots real tight and 2 shots almost touching but out of the group. Once in a while all five would be real tight, then the next five would all open some. At times there would be one bad flier.
The SRH has shot many, many 1/2" groups at 50 yd's but 1" seems to be the limit with the SBH with less groups under 1" then the SRH.
I always blamed the brass. With my old RCBS dies I could never get consistancy, I had BR dies made. That REALLY helped but is way too much work. The Hornady dies have cut the bad shots way down and tightened groups overall. If I buy new brass I am going to keep track of shots with them and I am going to sort as to where the shots hit paper too to see what happens.
I recently shot this group at 50 yd's with my 330 gr boolit when sighting in my Ultra Dot. The right one was called out, it is hard to use the big dot for target. I can't do it all the time, but enough to be happy.
The larger calibers like the .475 seem to be more consistant without as many brass problems. I never will figure it out.

[jack19512]

I am just about to throw my hands up in the air and give up on these two revolvers. I'll show you two groups shot with factory ammo today. The .357 was Winchester 110 gr. JHP and the 44 mag was Winchester 240 gr. JSP.

I think I am just wasting powder, lead, and primers. These two groups were shot from only 18 yards according to my range finder and fired from a rest. After shooting these two groups I decided to try a group from my Glock 9 mm and did fine with it.

Funny thing is I fired a reduced cast load and another stout cast load from the 44 mag and again the reduced load wasn't near as good as the stout load and to beat it all my stout cast load was a lot better than the factory ammo. The top pic is the .357 and one of the rounds was too low to get into the pic I took. [smilie=b:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/357.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/44mag.jpg

[jack19512]

Here is a pic of the cast 44 mag group. Still lousy considering I was at a distance of only 18 yards and shooting from a rest. But better than the factory ammo ! :(

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/44cast.jpg

[44man]

Don't give up, I have never seen a Ruger that wouldn't do that at 100 yd's. Even better in fact. I shoot beer cans off the 100 yd rail from a rest.
You have to do a lot of thinking and working but when all is said and done, it could be you also. You MUST have a perfect sight picture and PERFECT trigger control and lose all fear of recoil.
I wish we lived close. The hardest thing is to explain and help over distance.
You have to tame the gun before you can expect better results. I wish I could watch you shoot and make some loads to try. I would love to shoot the gun.
Where do you live? Maybe someone here is close to you.

[jack19512]

I wish we lived close.






Believe me I wish we did too. Too many times I have wished it was just me so I don't have to send them back to Ruger but I shoot my Ruger GP 100 .357 just fine. I am not the worlds best shot by any means but I know I can do better than this, especially from a distance of 18 yards.

I live in eastern KY. I have thought about someone else shooting these revolvers but there just isn't anyone around that I would consider competent that I know anyway. I can't even get these revolvers to shoot milder loads where the recoil really isn't a factor, quite the opposite with the 44 mag, I get a better group from the stouter loads than the milder so that seems to exclude the recoil factor. :confused:

[cbrick]

Jack,

I have been reading this thread with some interest. As 44 man suggested, did you slug ALL of the throats and the bore? Assuming these measurements are all correct try the following.

A revolver is the single most difficult action type to shoot accurately/consistently when shooting groups from the bench. Lock time is very slow and so is barrel time and combined with the plow handle of a SA it all adds up to it being very difficult to place one shot on top of the last. An absolute must for revolvers is:

Grip
sight picture
grip
trigger control
grip
Follow through
grip

Did I mention grip? I did read where you said you had experience with a revolver but also read where you said you had a 10 year break with semi-auto's. A revolver is not a 1911 and while grip is important with all handguns with revolvers it well past important, it is everything. If you change the position of your hand on the grip even very slightly the bullet WILL go to a different place. If you change finger and/or thumb pressure from shot to shot EVERY shot will print to a different place. Even if you are using the wrong grip that is less important as long as you are using the exact same wrong grip for EVERY SINGLE shot. After every shot take the revolver out of your shooting hand with the other hand and place it back in your shooting hand in the exact same place, if it doesn't feel right take it back out of your hand try again. The revolver WILL move in your hand under recoil and you MUST put it back in exactly the same place and have exactly the same grip. This of coarse is for Bench shooting groups, not a combat scenario.

Next, about your load and bullet choice. Unless you always plan on very short range plinking loads dump the wadcutters. In the 44 try the RCBS 240 gr GC silhouette bullet, 23.5 gr H110, evenly trimmed brass and a consistent crimp. In the 357 try the RCBS 180 gr silhouette bullet with a near max book load of H-110 - 296 - H-108 - N-110. Yep, I am a fan of slower powders for the revolver but I only shoot long range revolver. Never use reduced charges of H110, besides being incredibly inaccurate it could also be dangerous. H-110 does NOT reduce well. Use either new brass or at the least brass that has been fired the same number of times and kept together as a lot. Variations in the number of times the brass has been fired WILL open up groups and the longer the range the larger the groups.

OK, the reason for the larger bullet weights. If your looking for revolver accuracy you want to load the cylinder with the front driving band INSIDE the throat, not where it comes up short of the throat. After you slug the throats you need to size the bullets to a mild snug fit inside the throats. Drop a sized bullet into each throat and the throat should hold it. If it's properly sized you should be able to tap each bullet out with the eraser end of pencil.

Assuming your revolver's critical dimensions are good (throats all the same, throats - bore match and timing) try these things and Jack should be a happy camper.

Think GRIP.

Rick

[44man]

Thanks for popping in Cbrick. We don't want him to give up, it is there and he will find it with help. He just has to stop worrying and do some work.
Keep adding things for him, then we need to force him to go line by line without skipping anything or print it all up so he can study.
The biggest problem I see on the posts is some just skim as they read and ignore those tiny but very important items.
Jack, you can't keep going back and trying the same stuff that has failed you and expect it to correct itself! Mostly the factory loads, powder and wrong boolits. Get those measurements too. :drinks:

[44man]

OOPS, I missed another clue. ( after I said not to skim! :mrgreen:) You shoot the light loads worse because the barrel time is longer. The faster loads don't give you time for any shooting mistakes to show up as bad. I would guess something with your grip or the way you pull the trigger is causing you grief.
After shooting autos, you really need to learn trigger squeeze again. You CAN'T just pull the trigger, it must break when you don't know it is going to from a steady increase in pressure while ONLY concentrating on sight picture.
Try dry firing a lot until the sight doesn't move off the bull when the hammer falls, then follow through a little.
Also have someone else load your gun for you. Have them leave out a shell or two in different chambers each time. (Don't peek either! [smilie=1:) Don't be ashamed when you see what you do, report back.
A departed friend was over long ago to have me mount a scope on his lever gun. I sighted it and gave him the gun with an empty in it, told him it was empty and to squeeze the trigger on target. He was rock steady and the gun didn't even shake when the hammer dropped. But when loaded, he plowed tater beds in my woods and never once touched paper. It happens even to the best once in a while too.

[runfiverun]

i know with my rugers it is easy to have the front sight wander around in the rear sight.
some sort of contrast in sight colors will help,and "forcing" the bbl to stay down during the shot definately helps my 41 shoot better.

[cbrick]

runfive, what kind of groups ya getting with the 41? I'm a bit of a fan of the 41.

[jack19512]

Thanks for all of the help. I will keep trying to find something that works. But one thing I will do is just work on one revolver at a time. One of the things I think I may be doing wrong is applying the same techniques to both revolvers when they are different and just doubling my frustration. I just refuse to believe I got two bad revolvers. Possible of course, just not probable. :???: If anything I am starting to believe the grips on both revolvers just don't suit me. I can't believe I am this bad of a shot. :mrgreen:

[docone31]

The big mistake I made with both of my Ruger Blackhawks, both .357, and Super Blackhawk, was changing grips. My accuracy suffered immensely.
I swapped out springs, upgraded the sights, so far, so good. I swapped out the grips, Blech!
Both of those pistols need to roll back in the hand. They are not like double action revolvers. They need to roll.
Once I put the original grips on, and relaxed, I made paper.
It was too bad, as I liked the looks of the Pachymeyers. Stock works with these pistols.

[jack19512]

I got both revolvers out tonight and examined them. I slugged the barrels of both and here are my findings, as accurate as I can get with my dial calipers. Keep in mind I could possibly be off some.

1. The 44 mag inside barrel measurements were .417 and .429
2. The .357 inside barrel measurements were .350 and .357
3 The bullet I am shooting for the .357 is .360
4 The bullet I am shooting for the 44 mag is .430

Does anyone see anything wrong with these numbers? If there were any tight spots in either of the barrels I could not tell it. Thanks

[cbrick]

Jack, what about the throats? A wheel gun will be it's most accurate when the throats are exactly the same size as groove diameter of the bore or throats very slightly larger, never with the throats smaller than groove diameter.

Do the throats hold a sized bullet as I described earlier?

Rick

[cbrick]

5 shot at 150 meters, 41 mag NEI 240 gr SWCGC @ 1420 fps. Scoped from bench w/Burris 12X
The high shot was the fifth shot and a called flyer.

You can make your revolver shoot better than your expectations.

Rick

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1478-8.jpg

[jack19512]

Jack, what about the throats? A wheel gun will be it's most accurate when the throats are exactly the same size as groove diameter of the bore or throats very slightly larger, never with the throats smaller than groove diameter.





As far as I can tell the throats are OK. I do have a question though. When it comes to the revolver cylinder when I drop a cast bullet into the .357 mag cylinder the bullet will drop freely until it gets to the other end, bullet nose is even with back face of cylinder, then I have to use a dowel rod and small hammer to finish driving the bullet through, quite a heavy tapping to finish knocking bullet through cylinder. The 44 mag is the same way just not as bad. Is this normal?

[cbrick]

You ask a tough question to answer because I don't know what the throats measure.

You need to push a soft lead slug that's a little too large through each throat and measure them, it's just like slugging the bore. If the throats measure SMALLER than the groove diameter you'll need to have the throats reamed to match the groove diameter. It's possible you could use the bullets you have already tapped through the throats with the dowel and hammer. Did you keep them seperated (numbered) and measure them? If not just do it again.

If the throats are smaller than the groove diameter it doesn't matter a lick what size you size your bullets too, they WILL be throat size when they go through and if that's a smaller diameter than groove diameter it'll not shoot to it's potential, could even cause leading and will cause a loss of velocity, could blow your lube out the muzzle ahead of the bullet if it's bad enough. A SOFT alloy can make up for a lot of this by expanding in the barrel.

I've only worked with a few Rugers but the ones I have worked with did have some mis-match between both throat consistency and the throats and groove diameter. From your description your throats sound tight so I would measure them to know for sure where your at. IF the throats need to be reamed this isn't all that expensive and could make a huge difference in the revolver but you need to measure the throats to know.

Rick

[warf73]

Here is my range report using a 445SM in a handi rifle. This was right after I made the rifle into a 445. (This is from Oct, 2005)

I made it out to the range but forgot the bench so all accuracy testing was done off hand with factory iron sights at 55yards.
All chrony FPS were at 10’ from muzzle.

Loads used:

44 Remington Mag.
Brass - Winchester
Primer - CCI Large Mag Pistol Primer
Powder - 2400 @ 17.0grs.
Bullet - Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity – Average 1475 F.P.S.
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.600"
5 Shot Group – Average 1.685"

445Super Magnum
Brass - Starline
Primer - CCI Large Mag Pistol Primer
Powder – Win. 296 @ 29gr.
Bullet – Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity - Average 1975 F.P.S.
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.935"
5 Shot Group – Average 1.200"

445Super Magnum
Brass - Starline
Primer – Win. Larger Rifle Primer
Powder – Win. 296 @ 29gr.
Bullet – Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity - Average 1965 F.P.S. (but with very large extreme spread)
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.935"
5 Shot Group – Average 5 + "

I've noticed using 296 that if I didn't use a Mag primer that my FPS was all over the place.

Warf

[DonH]

Here is an interesting piece on primers:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=1181&forum_id=37&highlight=primer+strength

[DonH]

You have to do a lot of thinking and working but when all is said and done, it could be you also. You MUST have a perfect sight picture and PERFECT trigger control and lose all fear of recoil.


This is as true a statement as has been made. Having shot handguns competitively for nearly 30 years, I can attest to the fact that it doesn't take much of an error with a handgun to throw a shot out of a group. A little tightening of the lower fingers on the grip as the shot is fired coupled with just a hint of a jerk of the trigger and the bullet is off the target. This happens commonly on the 50 yd NRA target and it is big. Tendency to do what is described above seems to increase proportionately with recoil level. If shooting iron sights, shifting focus from front to rear sight or target from shot to shot will destroy a group also. In fact it can result in two distinct groups on paper.

Shots landing outside a group due to reasons such as outline above are not flyers although they are commonly called such. Unless the shooter really pays attention to fundamentals (consistent grip on the gun, trigger control, sight alignment, etc.) of handgun shooting it can be difficult to evaluate accuracy of a gun or load.

[44man]

Warf73, that is true with primers in the .445. Magnum's are needed in it. The larger cases like the .454 and .475, etc, need them. I tested standards in the larges cases and even though I had no problems with ignition, accuracy suffered in the exact reverse of the .44.
No, I can't explain the .44's dislike of the mag primer. When I get to the .45 Colt, results are closer between primers and I have planned on more tests with the WLP but never seem to find time.
I don't think the .44 in a rifle suffers as much from the hotter primer. I don't notice it in the Marlin but every .44 revolver I ever had hates them.

[Bass Ackward]

Warf73, that is true with primers in the .445. Magnum's are needed in it. The larger cases like the .454 and .475, etc, need them. I tested standards in the larges cases and even though I had no problems with ignition, accuracy suffered in the exact reverse of the .44.
No, I can't explain the .44's dislike of the mag primer. When I get to the .45 Colt, results are closer between primers and I have planned on more tests with the WLP but never seem to find time.
I don't think the .44 in a rifle suffers as much from the hotter primer. I don't notice it in the Marlin but every .44 revolver I ever had hates them.


Well, I had Redding make me a special sizing die for 44 Mag to take cases down below .423. And I turned an expander plug to the .423 that Elmer suggested in Six Guns. When done that way, magnum primers DID blow groups. Oh yea, dramatically.

But when using my old Lyman dies, magnum primers do not blow groups. In fact with bullets up to .430, magnums do better for most everything from Blue Dot on down. What I can't figure out is how Elmer seated 11BHN PB bullets without sizing down or rounding the bases? Cause his setup will do it with 15 BHN, and the run out is fierce.

So I suspect that when we hear a lot of people talking about larger bullet diameters doing better for them or magnum primers or certain bullet designs, you just have to wonder if that could be in their reloading dies.

[felix]

Yep, John, it always boils down to the amount of static inertia of the projectile at the time of the ignition phase. The inertia depends upon all the forces that hold the projectile firm, including the expansion of the projectile itself immediately after ignition start. In reality, small dies are no different than a chamber neck a little small. ... felix

[crabo]

So I suspect that when we hear a lot of people talking about larger bullet diameters doing better for them or magnum primers or certain bullet designs, you just have to wonder if that could be in their reloading dies.[/QUOTE]


In respect to long range accuraccy, is loading on a Dillion Square deal, gonna hurt your accuracy? I have no clue how those dies would be rated.

Thanks,

Crabo

[cbrick]

Crabo, I can't speak of Dillon's dies, never used a single one of them. Not to speak poorly of them, I've just never used any. I've also never used any type of prgressive press simply becuase in all the decades that I've been handloading I have never once walked into my loading room with the intent of seeing how fast I could get it done. No doubt if I ever got into any of the fast & furious 1911 games I would have a different take on that.

As for sizing dies effecting the accuracy of the finished round I think so, that's why I don't use this step for ammo intended for long range revolver grouping. I use virgin brass only, the primer pocket uniformed to the max depth of the Sinclair tool, the flash hole is uniformed and it is trimmed to a uniform length without chamfering or belling. That's it, no sizing. I seat the primer with the tool I rigged up that seats it to flush contact in the bottom of the pocket with a slight crush and uniform pressure on each round.

That's it, best way to assure your sizing die doesn't affect your accuracy is don't use it. Save the sizing die for fired brass but you could also check the diameter of your virgin brass and see how close your sizing die returns fired brass to this dimension, you could be in for a surprise.

Again, for me this is all for long range revolver grouping and State and National matches, not practice or general shooting.

Rick

EDIT

I should have also mentioned that I don't use the expander die either.

[Maven]

The throat issue that cbrick mentioned shouldn't be ignored, nor should examining the screws that hold the sights to the bbl., especially the front one. (They were loose on both my SBH & BH.) Also, I size to .359" for my BH and .431" for the SBH and get excellent results when I practice. Unique & Blue Dot, as mentioned earlier are good choices in both guns (8gr. of Unique is particularly accurate with SWC's in the SBH), but with Fed. 150 primers. Last comment/question: Could the CB's you're using be too hard to obturate to seal the bore? If so, accuracy will be less than sterling.

[jack19512]

Could the CB's you're using be too hard to obturate to seal the bore? If so, accuracy will be less than sterling.







Well, I actually wondered about this. I have water dropped these bullets and it was my understanding the higher velocity the harder the bullet. Am I wrong about this?

I was actually going to ask this question but since everyone just blew off my question about the bullet/cylinder fit I didn't think it would go anywhere. [smilie=1:




"As far as I can tell the throats are OK. I do have a question though. When it comes to the revolver cylinder when I drop a cast bullet into the .357 mag cylinder the bullet will drop freely until it gets to the other end, bullet nose is even with back face of cylinder, then I have to use a dowel rod and small hammer to finish driving the bullet through, quite a heavy tapping to finish knocking bullet through cylinder. The 44 mag is the same way just not as bad. Is this normal?"

[44man]

Soft, undersize boolits that need to expand to seal never give accuracy. I make my boolits hard because they fit and I don't want them to be sized by the brass.
My boolits fit very tight in the brass and I can see all of the grease grooves and gas check through it. No way I will use soft boolits unless I change expanders and use them for light plinking loads.
Bass, what kind and thickness was the .44 special brass that Elmer used. I have a hunch it was a lot thinner and weaker then what we have now. He just might have gotten away with soft boolits in tight necks.
Cbrick uses very tight neck tension but I think he uses jacketed bullets for silhouette. Please clarify for us cbrick.
It is VERY hard to start and seat cast without some flare.
The reason the Hornady expander works so well is that it is very short and is the right diameter. The brass below the expander is still at the sized diameter and makes a tight fit on the boolit which is going down into unexpanded brass.
IMHO, I don't think any size die is bad or that one is better then another. I firmly believe the expander creates or destroys the accuracy. Even more important as boolit hardness and diameters change.
Cbrick avoids this but I can't afford new brass every time I shoot and sure could not when I shot IHMSA. My brass gets used to death and I have not killed any yet! :mrgreen:

[cbrick]

Cbrick uses very tight neck tension but I think he uses jacketed bullets for silhouette. Please clarify for us cbrick.
It is VERY hard to start and seat cast without some flare.

Good lord . . . what a terrible thing to say about someone. I must have done something really horrible to get 44man mad enough to say something like that about me.

NO, I haven't loaded or shot a single one of them ugly brown condom things in any firearm least of all a revolver in 25 years. For one thing I couldn't afford being handicaped by a condom bullet in revolver competition. I need and will use all the advantage I can get and so will stick with my cast.

I do flare the case mouth with an "M" die that does not touch the inside of the case except the taper giving a very slight bell, just enough to get the gas check started, no more.

Actually my neck tension is slightly less when the brass isn't sized down but as well as the loads work it must be enough, I've had no problems at all with ignition, consistency etc. with the slow powders I use.

Rick

[cbrick]

Well, I actually wondered about this. I have water dropped these bullets and it was my understanding the higher velocity the harder the bullet. Am I wrong about this?

I was actually going to ask this question but since everyone just blew off my question about the bullet/cylinder fit I didn't think it would go anywhere. [smilie=1:
"As far as I can tell the throats are OK. I do have a question though. When it comes to the revolver cylinder when I drop a cast bullet into the .357 mag cylinder the bullet will drop freely until it gets to the other end, bullet nose is even with back face of cylinder, then I have to use a dowel rod and small hammer to finish driving the bullet through, quite a heavy tapping to finish knocking bullet through cylinder. The 44 mag is the same way just not as bad. Is this normal?"

Blow off your question of bullet throat fit?? :confused: Please see post number 63 in this thread, I thought this question was answered fairly well. If this doesn't answer your question perhaps the question needs to be asked in a different way.

Rick

[Dale53]

I had a "squib" load one time. Was trying the then new H110 in .44 Special. Investigation showed that it was caused by insufficient bullet pull. I changed full length size dies and expander to gain more bullet tension and the problem went away. That was probably forty years ago and I have NOT had a recurrence in tens of thousands of rounds.

I have loaded H110, 296, WC 820, and 2400 with standard primers with excellent accuracy and no problems with ignition in .44 Special (heavy loads), 357 magnum and 44 magnum.

YMMV

Dale53

[jack19512]

Blow off your question of bullet throat fit?? :confused: Please see post number 63 in this thread, I thought this question was answered fairly well. If this doesn't answer your question perhaps the question needs to be asked in a different way.

Rick







I apologize Rick I didn't mean to make it sound the way it did. Now you see how inexperienced and ignorant I am when it comes to figuring out problems with cast bullets. I admit I am still quite confused and thought that when you were talking "throat" you were talking about the barrel and not the cylinder. I think this is just starting to get the best of me.

[44man]

Crabo, I can't speak of Dillon's dies, never used a single one of them. Not to speak poorly of them, I've just never used any. I've also never used any type of prgressive press simply becuase in all the decades that I've been handloading I have never once walked into my loading room with the intent of seeing how fast I could get it done. No doubt if I ever got into any of the fast & furious 1911 games I would have a different take on that.

As for sizing dies effecting the accuracy of the finished round I think so, that's why I don't use this step for ammo intended for long range revolver grouping. I use virgin brass only, the primer pocket uniformed to the max depth of the Sinclair tool, the flash hole is uniformed and it is trimmed to a uniform length without chamfering or belling. That's it, no sizing. I seat the primer with the tool I rigged up that seats it to flush contact in the bottom of the pocket with a slight crush and uniform pressure on each round.

That's it, best way to assure your sizing die doesn't affect your accuracy is don't use it. Save the sizing die for fired brass but you could also check the diameter of your virgin brass and see how close your sizing die returns fired brass to this dimension, you could be in for a surprise.

Again, for me this is all for long range revolver grouping and State and National matches, not practice or general shooting.

Rick

EDIT

I should have also mentioned that I don't use the expander die either.
Cbrick, why would I get mad at you? :-D This post is what confused me when you said "no belling". My first thought was you will have trouble shaving boolits if they are not covered with that funny stuff.
But you cleared it up. :drinks:

[cbrick]

Well stick with it Jack, most of it isn't all that complicated and once you get a few basics figured out you'll see dramatic improvements. It is and continues to be a learning curve for all of us.

The throat in a revolver is in the cylinder (not the barrel), look into your cylinder and you'll see two diameters, the chamber is the large part where the cartridge case fits and the throat, the smaller diameter closest to the forcing cone, is where you want to size your bullets to fit. The part where you said you needed a hammer to punch out the bullets. Thats too tight and your throats will size the bullets down just like you did with a punch and hammer. That's why you don't want the throats larger than groove diameter.

Stick with it and keep asking questions, we all started right where your at right now.

Rick

[cbrick]

Oops 44 man, I did a booboo, that is supposed to say "No chamfering or DEBURRING", NOT belling. I should proof read this stuff.

That was a joke, I didn't mean you were mad, just pointing out I DO NOT SHOOT JACKETED BULLETS. Cast only for me thank you.

Rick

[44man]

Forgiven! :mrgreen: Just don't want to confuse Jack.

[MtGun44]

I will bet that the throats are way undersized. Please take the time to
push a soft slug or roundball through at least couple of them and
measure accurately.

I will bet that you will find undersized throats that are sizing your boolits
to an undersize and then they are rattling down the barrel. I know of
more than a few BHs that had this dimensional problem from the factory.

The good news is that if the throats are undersized it is pretty easy to fix.

If it turns out that they are oversized, you will need to make oversized
boolits or very soft ones to bump up.

Bill

[jack19512]

I will bet that the throats are way undersized.








I have to hammer the unsized cast bullet which is what I have been shooting in the .357 through the cylinder but when using the slug from the barrel slugging it will drop right through the cylinder on it's own. I was shooting as cast because I don't have a sizer for the .357. I have ordered one though.

[jack19512]

I got to do some shooting today and it was a better day today. My .357 Blackhawk is the .357/9mm convertible and I have never used the 9mm cylinder so I tried it today and must say I am pleased. This is the only 9mm ammo that I had to try. Distance was 20 yards.

Although still not great it is a huge improvement to what I have had in the past with this pistol. Since I have a Ruger GP 100 .357 I am going to keep the 9mm cylinder in this pistol and order me the 9mm dies. Hopefully it will only get better now. I shot several groups and don't seem to have any trouble duplicating this group. The one flier was probably me or the ammo, I am betting it was me.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/9mmcylinder.jpg

[jack19512]

Also shot the 44 mag. Still not very good. The only thing I did different this time was dip the cast bullets in some JPW. I thought it was worth a try just in case it was a lube problem. I have only used LLA until now. Distance was 20 yards.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/44msg.jpg

[MtGun44]

OK, with your last post, it at least puts some bounds on the cyl throat sizes.
The throats are smaller than your bullets (good) and larger than the bore (also
good). This pretty much leaves out severe throat size mismatch as the primary
issue.

The two problematic cases that normally are seen are:
1 - seriously oversized throat - in this case the bullet would fall through the
cylinder and you have to hammer it thru, so it is not happening.

2 - seriously undersized throat - in this case the bullet from the bore slugging
would be tight in the throats - it is not, so this is not happening.

Ideally, you want the bullet at ignition to be throat diameter or TDiam +.001" or
so. Sounds like you are at least somewhere in the ball park.

I have only skimmed some of the many other posts, but I think this possibility is put to rest.

Some guns just do not shoot certain boolit designs well, or with particular
powders and/or charge weights. Be sure to try some different designs, powders
and charge wts.

In the 44 mag 10.0 Unique under a 240 Keith SWC of correct diameter is very
likely to shoot accurately. Please give it a try if you have not. If you need a few
Keith SWCs to try, let me know and I'll send you some.

Good luck. I think we have ruled out a couple of things.

Bill

[Echo]

Gladyou are having good luck with the 9mm cyl. I have an old 357/9mm BH convertible that shoots 357's like gangbusters, but I never had any luck w/the 9mm cyl. I believe that .355 bullet rattles down the .357 grooves, and exits in a random manner. Have not tried boolits, but just got a DC mold and will give them a try.

I thought about having the 9mm cyl rechambered to 357 B&D, but was talked out of it - the thinking was that there wasn't enough meat in the cyl to take the pressure.

[jack19512]

Some guns just do not shoot certain boolit designs well, or with particular
powders and/or charge weights. Be sure to try some different designs, powders
and charge wts.






I do believe this is going to have to be my next step. I am going to pick up some 296 powder to try tomorrow and I appreciate the offer for the bullets, I hope to pick up some different bullets to try when I pick up the powder. Thanks to everyone for their input. Since I am trying to get the 44 mag lined out for deer hunting this fall does anyone have any recommendations for a good boolit for deer sized game?

[crabo]

Back to primers, is the WLP considered a standard or magnum primer as it relates to this discussion.

This has been a very interesting discussion,

Thanks,

[jack19512]

I got my .357 sizer and 158 gr. SWC GC mold today and hoped for the best. Bullets I were shooting before for the .357 were PB. Loaded up 12 rounds using 7 gr. Unique and 6 of these bullets were with no GC and sized and 6 with GC and sized. I give up, I'm through. This pistol seems to shoot 9mm good and 9mm it will stay. :veryconfu

I only have the one 44 mag so I have no choice but to work on it. First group is without GC's and second group is with GC's. As you can see no improvement. Distance was 23 yards.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/NoGC.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/GC.jpg

[Maven]

jack, My Ruger BH shoots most CB's best when they're sized to .359", which barely touches them. .358" ain't bad either, btw. If it's a Lee sizing die, there are a number of fairly simple ways of opening it up .001" or .002".

[jack19512]

I'll tell you, for me this is the .357 magnum from.....well you know where. My as cast bullets are .360. I have tried shooting them as cast, I have tried sizing them to .357, I have tried gas checks, I have tried no gas checks, I have tried several powders, I have tried different charges of powder, I have tried a different lube, I have tried different seating depths, I ordered and have tried a different mold although both are 240 gr., I have tried factory ammo.

Never got a decent group yet. I guarantee you anything I shoot at with this pistol is safe if farther than 10 yards away and smaller than a barn! :twisted: The only thing that is saving this pistol is that it appears to shoot pretty good with the 9mm cylinder and the only factory ammo I have tried so far. I think it will just have to make a trip back to Ruger. :(

[cbrick]

Yep, you've tried everything except what has been suggested in this thread. If you will not or cannot get the correct dimensions of your 357 take it to a smith and tell him you need to know these measurements & let him measure it. While he has it ask him to check the timing of each chamber as well.

If we ever know what the correct measurements of all of your throats AND the correct groove diameter of your bore might be we could then discuss bullet sizing, alloys, bullet styles, powders etc.

Rick

[jack19512]

Yep, you've tried everything except what has been suggested in this thread.






I appreciate all of the help from all of you but you are being a little judgmental of me, maybe!

I have no access to a gunsmith, I am by no means a gunsmith myself and do not have the tools or equipment to do any kind of measuring that requires any real precision. Without the precision what exactly would you be able to gain from any measurements I gave you?

I am relatively new to casting and reloading and just learning, I don't have the knowledge base and experience that many of you have. I reload and cast for about 7 rifle calibers and have had really good success with them. This is my first failure. I am far from being new to shooting though, have been doing it all my life. Anyone that knows me personally will tell you I am a competent shot. The .357 doesn't shoot worth a crap with factory ammo either. Maybe, and I mean just maybe this is a job for Ruger.

I for one am not above admitting that this may be more than I am capable of fixing. I really do appreciate the help that all of you have given. :drinks:

[crabo]

Jack, what is the largest, sized boolit that will easy push through your cylinder with a pencil? If a .358 boolit will not puch through easily, the cylinder needs to be opened up by someone like cylindersmith.com

Will these guns shoot with jacketed bullets? May be asked and answered, but I don't want to go back and read 5 pages worth.

[jack19512]

Jack, what is the largest, sized boolit that will easy push through your cylinder with a pencil?
Will these guns shoot with jacketed bullets?





My bullets as cast as far as I can tell are .360. If you drop one of them into the cylinder you have to use a hammer and dowel to knock it on through. I ordered me a .357 sizer hoping that would help, after sizing best I can tell the bullet is measuring somewhere between .357 and almost .358 and it will fall pretty much with just a slight push with the pencil through the cylinder.

I can only assume the reason I don't get the same reading is my sized bullet is not perfectly round. I slugged my barrel and that slug would also drop through the cylinder with no problem.

The 44 mag shoots better with jacketed and my cast better than the .357. The .357 shoots horrible with factory jacketed and my cast. I think there is hope for the 44 mag but I think I am going to have to have professional help with the .357.

With the 9mm cylinder the .357/9mm Blackhawk pistol shoots pretty good and I am satisfied with it in this manner. I am actually seriously thinking about just leaving the 9mm cylinder in the pistol and shooting it as a 9mm. I am pretty confident or at least hope that I can improve the accuracy of the 9mm with my cast bullets.


I purchased me some large and small magnum pistol primers and some 296 powder today to try and will see if this helps any. Back before I got into the semi-autos the .357 was my favorite cartridge and shot it a lot and always did very well with it. One of the .357's I use to have was a Charter Arms .357 with about 2" barrel that was quite accurate.

[jack19512]

In the 44 mag 10.0 Unique under a 240 Keith SWC of correct diameter is very
likely to shoot accurately. Please give it a try if you have not. If you need a few
Keith SWCs to try, let me know and I'll send you some.






Bill, if you are still open to the idea of sending me a couple of the Keith SWC's I would like to try them. I probably wouldn't need but six of them to get an idea if they work for me or not. I was at Sportsman's Warehouse today and looked for some cast bullets to try but their selection was very limited and I would have had to buy a box of 500 just to try them. I would be happy to pay you for them and the shipping.

[MtGun44]

Shoot me a PM with your address and I'll send you some. Do you have a
throat size for your .44 so I can match or exceed that with the ones I send you?

I have them in several diameters.

Bill