Ar-15 vs aks-47

[bouncer50]

I have a couple of each. I myself like the Ak better i like the folding stocks it make for a nice compact weapon compare to the AR. My Ranger friend who serve in Nam told me they both had good stopping power. He did tell me the Ak work better in the Jungle with the rain and mud of course the rusting. He said the Ar bullet would deflect off of small branches. He said in full auto the Ar was better to control then the AK. Just my opinion i like the 30 cal compare to the 22 cal. If i had to go to war i would take the AK. Dont get me wrong the AR is also a great rifle.

[sawinredneck]

That's why I bought an AR-10!
I always liked the AR platform but never considered the .223/5.56 much more than a "varmit" cartridge.
Loved the AK's virtual indestructibilty, but I bought into the accuracy myth that the AR is better. Which it is, but not in the realm that I'll ever be able to notice! I finally found an odd SKS back in the '90's that I decided to keep, wish I'd have bought a truckload of the $150 AK's and $60 sardine cans of ammo back then!
Both are fine rifles, both have pluses and minuses, you just have to figure out which one suits your needs better.

[curator]

Been there, done that. The Ak was not encountered all that often in the early 'Nam years, '66 & 67. More likely to see SKS. Nonetheless, the 7.62X39 round had greater penetration and 'brush busting" capacity but it lacked the accuracy of the M-16 and 5.56 NATO round. The original 55 grain slugs in the M16 were not great "man-stoppers" and had a tendency to have the rim rip off during extraction which took the rifle out of commission until cleared. Using a ram-rod after each shot went out with the War Between the States a century earlier. The AKs we did run up against worked no matter what but shot high on full auto (thank goodness!) and had a distinctive sound. The V.C. never seemed to have much ammo. The M16 was controllable on full auto assuming it didn't jam and you could carry a LOT of ammo. Now, an M16 that took 7.62X39 ammo would have been quite the ticket. Considering the III Corps area fire fights I saw, the .300 Blackout with 220 grain subsonic bullets would have been just right too.

[jmort]

If you consider ball ammo then yes
One good hit from a 55 grain PSP or 60 grain Partition and you dead. That is all you need. One good hit.
AR will easily kill deer and hog with the right bullet. Partition 22 Caliber 60 Grain Bullet (50ct)Legendary 22 Partition 60 Grain Spitzer Bullet
Watch some "torture tests" AK v. AR15
You will be surprised
Get what makes sense to you

[tunnug]

This will sum it up for you;

AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant
Written by Head of the old Headsbunker.com, also known as "Ezra Coli" on the various message boards.


There's an ever present, unending debate over which is best, ARs or AKs, raging across the internet and in gun shops every day sending bile and bitter insults spewing both ways. This debate has turned fathers against sons, best friends against one another, and........well you get the point. The author is of the opinion that there are of course pros and cons to each family of rifle, and I refuse to engage in what is "best". As one who loves them all, especially the AK and AR series, I thought I'd pass on some of the knowledge I have gained over the years concerning these wildly different weapons. As a bonus, I'll toss in my knowledge of another favorite family of weapons at the Bunker, just because they are very popular these days and I often ramble about them. So, here, for the aid of those hammering one another in the debate, is some unbiased, non-slanted, untainted raw knowledge about the AK, the AR, and the Mosin Nagant.





Stuff you know if you have an AK
Stuff you know if you have an AR
Stuff you know if you have a Mosin Nagant


It works though you have never cleaned it. Ever.
You have $9 per ounce special non-detergent synthetic Teflon infused oil for cleaning.
It was last cleaned in Berlin in 1945.


You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside.
You are able to hit the broad side of a barn from 600 meters.
You can hit the farm from two counties over.


Cheap mags are fun to buy.
Cheap mags melt.
What's a mag?


Your safety can be heard from 300 meters away.
You can silently flip off the safety with your finger on the trigger.
What's a safety?


Your rifle comes with a cheap nylon sling.
Your rifle has a 9 point stealth tactical suspension system.
You rifle has dog collars.


Your bayonet makes a good wire cutter.
Your bayonet is actually a pretty good steak knife.
Your bayonet is longer than your leg.


You can put a .30" hole through 12" of oak, if you can hit it.
You can put one hole in a paper target at 100 meters with 30 rounds.
You can knock down everyone else's target with the shock wave of your bullet going downrange.


When out of ammo your rifle will nominally pass as a club.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a great wiffle bat.
When out of ammo, your rifle makes a supreme war club, pike, boat oar, tent pole, or firewood.


Recoil is manageable, even fun.
What's recoil?
Recoil is often used to relocate shoulders thrown out by the previous shot.


Your sight adjustment goes to "10", and you've never bothered moving it.
Your sight adjustment is incremented in fractions of minute of angle.
Your sight adjustment goes to 12 miles and you've actually tried it.


Your rifle can be used by any two bit nation's most illiterate conscripts to fight elite forces worldwide.
Your rifle is used by elite forces worldwide to fight two bit nations' most illiterate conscripts.
Your rifle has fought against itself and won every time.


Your rifle won some revolutions.
Your rifle won the Cold War.
Your rifle won a pole vault event.


You paid $350.
You paid $900.
You paid $59.95.


You buy cheap ammo by the case.
You lovingly reload precision crafted rounds one by one.
You dig your ammo out of a farmer's field in Ukraine and it works just fine.


You can intimidate your foe with the bayonet mounted.
You foes laugh when you mount your bayonet.
You can bayonet your foe on the other side of the river without leaving the comfort of your hole.


Service life, 50 years.
Service life, 40 years.
Service life, 100 years, and counting.


It's easier to buy a new rifle when you want to change cartridge sizes.
You can change cartridge sizes with the push of a couple of pins and a new upper.
You believe no real man would dare risk the ridicule of his friends by suggesting there is anything but 7.62x54r.


You can repair your rifle with a big hammer and a swift kick.
You can repair your rifle by taking it to a certified gunsmith, it's under warranty!
If your rifle breaks, you buy a new one.


You consider it a badge of honor when you get your handguards to burst into flames.
You consider it a badge of honor when you shoot a sub-MOA 5 shot group.
You consider it a badge of honor when you cycle 5 rounds without the aid of a 2x4.


After a long day the range you relax by watching "Red Dawn".
After a long day at the range you relax by watching "Blackhawk Down".
After a long day at the range you relax by visiting the chiropractor.


After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for a stiff shot of Vodka.
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for hotdogs and apple pie.
After cleaning your rifle you have a strong urge for shishkabob.


You can accessorize you rifle with a new muzzle brake or a nice stock set.
Your rifle's accessories are eight times more valuable than your rifle.
Your rifle's accessory is a small tin can with a funny lid, but it's buried under an apartment building somewhere in Budapest.


Your rifle's finish is varnish and paint.
Your rifle's finish is Teflon and high tech polymers.
Your rifle's finish is low grade shellac, cosmoline and Olga's toe nails.


Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Mikhail Kalashnikov.
Your wife tolerates your autographed framed picture of Eugene Stoner.
You're not sure there WERE cameras to photograph Sergei Mosin.


Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to hold your rifle over your head and shout "Wolverines!"
Late at night you sometimes have to fight the urge to clear your house, slicing the pie from room to room.
Late at night, you sometimes have to fight the urge to dig a fighting trench in the the yard to sleep in.


There you have it. In the end, it is clear to any open minded inquirer that the Mosin Nagant is the most superior weapon of all time, but the AR and the AK come out as a draw when compared side by side.

[Texas by God]

That was hilarious!
But the AR is my pick.

[sawinredneck]

Nice!!! That's a good one.

[dverna]

If, as stated, you go to war, look at the load out weight for both with one mag in the gun and 6 in a battle vest. Then add a basic kit on your back. I am old so weight matters. I am a good shot so accuracy matters. I have poor eyesight and like having good sights. The AR wins. Jmort makes some good points on bullets.

If you do not go to war, the AR is cheaper to shoot, more fun to shoot because it is more accurate and you can add a decent trigger. (BTW I bought 6000 Hornady 55 gr SP for about $425 delivered a few months ago). Brass is cheap and readily available...most is boxer primed.

The AK may be a better cast shooter as accuracy sucks anyway and bigger bullets are easier to cast. But if you catch the sales, jacketed .224 bullets are not too expensive (see above). Some are getting acceptable performance out of the .223 with cast...even exceeding the accuracy of an AK with jacketed. If the SHTF, I have a mold for a 65 gr bullet but hopefully I never use it. At 7 cents for a jacketed bullet that will shoot well, it is unlikely I would cast, GC and lube/coat bullets for the quantity I plan to use.

The AK may have been an economical choice 10 years ago but look at the current price of decent AR's.

[Larry Gibson]

I have 3 MNs, 2 ARs and an SKS ......no AK.......no intention of getting an AK......

I've been on the wrong end of AKs, shot many of them, repaired many and thrown many away......I've no fondness nor need for one. However, should anyone want to give me one......

Larry Gibson

[sawinredneck]

Hadn't even looked at AK prices since the election! Last October I was looking for something with a detachable mag, faster to load than my SKS, IMO. AK's were selling around $800, AR-15's were $600 (used) and up. I got my AR-10 at Academy for $739, on sale. That was a pretty easy decision. What are AK's selling for now days?

[DerekP Houston]

If, as stated, you go to war, look at the load out weight for both with one mag in the gun and 6 in a battle vest. Then add a basic kit on your back. I am old so weight matters. I am a good shot so accuracy matters. I have poor eyesight and like having good sights. The AR wins. Jmort makes some good points on bullets.

If you do not go to war, the AR is cheaper to shoot, more fun to shoot because it is more accurate and you can add a decent trigger. (BTW I bought 6000 Hornady 55 gr SP for about $425 delivered a few months ago). Brass is cheap and readily available...most is boxer primed.

The AK may be a better cast shooter as accuracy sucks anyway and bigger bullets are easier to cast. But if you catch the sales, jacketed .224 bullets are not too expensive (see above). Some are getting acceptable performance out of the .223 with cast...even exceeding the accuracy of an AK with jacketed. If the SHTF, I have a mold for a 65 gr bullet but hopefully I never use it. At 7 cents for a jacketed bullet that will shoot well, it is unlikely I would cast, GC and lube/coat bullets for the quantity I plan to use.

The AK may have been an economical choice 10 years ago but look at the current price of decent AR's.

With the AR market down to ~400 for a new gun, I can't see the appeal an import AK has anymore. That being said....of course I have 2 '47's and a '74 model in my safe, you never know!

[labradigger1]

AK goes bang every time.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX73uXs3xGU

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAneTFiz5WU

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrV3Wq59mz0

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ADtatnAW2Y

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYfGq1yk66Q

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrPjlcJ3rtY

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gmu0ffRb2M

[jmort]

From post #4

"Watch some "torture tests" AK v. AR15
You will be surprised"

As they said in the video "This myth has been going on way too long"

The AK fan boys ****-ume a whole lot

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6J5m4_Is_s

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0msFCTY7hI

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIkye_o3bGc

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYdoG4_Hmyc

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAtQ4BeL2z0

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzlYUcfqG08

[The Governor]

I bought an upgraded Wasr 10-63 that was $310 for all the goodies, mags case, bayonet, Tapco stock, etc. And I bough an AR for around $1100.
Now, the AR is worth, IDK, $550? Should have got the Wasr 10-63 packages every month.

[Larry Gibson]

AK goes bang every time.

That is the myth......I believed it at one time....many years ago......

Larry Gibson

[6bg6ga]

As much as I really don't like them I have to say AK. Now if I was offered an AK or a 300 blackout I'll take the 300 Blackout.

[sawinredneck]

Great vids Artful, VERY enlightening to me, I wasn't expecting half of those results.

[Artful]

Nonetheless, the 7.62X39 round had greater penetration and 'brush busting" capacity but it lacked the accuracy of the M-16 and 5.56 NATO round.

What's your definition of 'brush busting" capacity?

http://www.chuckhawks.com/brush_bucking_bullets.html

In his book "Deer Hunters Guide", Fancis Sell did a lot of testing with various calibers
at different MV and bullets (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=https%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F6 51550%2Fmagtech-first-defense-ammunition-300-aac-blackout-123-grain-full-metal-jacket-box-of-50%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_connexity-_-Ammunition%2B-%2BCenterfire%2BRifle%2B-%2BBlasting-_-Magtech-_-651550&mid=77064&cat_id=12150125&atom=10468&prod_id=&oid=7102661352&***=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=10c0197aa6e49820&cobrand=1&ppr=825618153cf4aa8f&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=26865&af_placement_id=1&dv=bb1929b0430da279c4b17fbd0ae78646) weights fired through screening brush of various branch diameters.
A few quips from the chapter:

All ranges were 45 yds

brush to target (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=https%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F7 04895%2Frinehart-woodland-boar-archery-target%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_connexity-_-Archery-_-Rinehart%2BTargets-_-704895&mid=77064&cat_id=12150125&atom=10468&prod_id=&oid=6706777892&***=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=96ca4a9714e45387&cobrand=1&ppr=69a56ce6c475942e&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=26865&af_placement_id=1&dv=bb1929b0430da279c4b17fbd0ae78646) distance 2-4 ft

500 grain bullet at 1450 fps from the 45-70 defelcted badly in alder and hazel. Huckelberry brush showed no measureable deflection.

243 using 100 gr bullet at 3000 fps. huckelberry brush from 45 yds resulted in complete bullet blow up. vine maple and hazel (.5- .75 " dia) all bullets mushroomed before hitting the target (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=https%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F7 04895%2Frinehart-woodland-boar-archery-target%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_connexity-_-Archery-_-Rinehart%2BTargets-_-704895&mid=77064&cat_id=12150125&atom=10468&prod_id=&oid=6706777892&***=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=96ca4a9714e45387&cobrand=1&ppr=69a56ce6c475942e&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=26865&af_placement_id=1&dv=bb1929b0430da279c4b17fbd0ae78646) and deflected over 4".

30-30 170 gr bullet at 2200 fps gave no deflection in huckelberry brush.
In heavier brush deflections were 1-3 inches.
There is good reason that the 30-30 is popular!

30-06 using 180 gr bullet at 2500 fps showed no defelction or expansion regardless of screening cover.

Same 30-06 rifle (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=https%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F7 56034%2Fmidwayusa-rifle-cheek-rest-with-rifle-ammunition-carrier-5-round-fixed-stock-black%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_connexity-_-Shooting%2B-%2BRange%2BAccessories-_-MidwayUSA-_-756034&mid=77064&cat_id=12150125&atom=10468&prod_id=&oid=6040272864&***=1&b_id=18&bid_type=10&bamt=d3922ef573df3407&cobrand=1&ppr=95876b04671ef51c&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=26865&af_placement_id=1&dv=bb1929b0430da279c4b17fbd0ae78646) using 150 gr bullet at 2900 fps deflection was 4-7 inches in the heavier cover of alder and hazel.
No measurable deflection behind huckeberry brush.
Loading it down to 2500 fps and the deflection in alder and hazel went down to around 3".[/FONT][/COLOR]

His findings summary:

bullet wt 150 gr minimum

velocity 2200 to 2500 fps

Neither Fast and light nor slow and heavy did as well.

YMMV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9y-VA1K8Q

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5dve7vAY9I

[nekshot]

my computer won't play video so I have to ask. Did any of the guns fail in the mud test?

[sawinredneck]

my computer won't play video so I have to ask. Did any of the guns fail in the mud test?
Pretty much every one but the AR and CETME, yes you read that right, the AR passed twice!

[Handloader109]

I had one, bought it before any AR. NO, cast doesn't work worth a cr@p in it. But neither did stock ammo......
Best thing I did with it?

Traded it for a brand new Dillon 650XL, two sets of dies 9mm and .223, Two sets of powder feeders, box of 500 plated 9mm barnes bullets, and about 2K 9mm cases.
Included case feeder, high base and powder checker, and scale.

Who got the best end of that deal? I KNOW WHO DID! :bigsmyl2:

[Bigslug]

The problem with the data for the AR-15 that people present is that it comes from 50-plus years of collection points, over which there has been A LOT of refinement, where the AK-47 essentially didn't change at all. Unless you're discussing within a Vietnam-period context, it makes little sense to have the debate with Vietnam-period data, as what's being made now is NOT your father's AR-15.

Worth tracking down is a copy of William H Hallihan's Misfire: The History of How America's Small Arms Have Failed Our Military. The book goes into the incompetence, corruption, and political goat-rodeo that was the U.S. Ordnance Department from the 1790's through the early 1990's when the book was written, and there is considerable discussion of how the AR-15 / M16 was taken from being the greatest thing since sliced bread to a complete train wreck by REMF mismanagement - no small amount of which was an ego-driven contingent that wanted the weapon to fail in the face of the M14 - in many ways, a colossal failure in its own right.

Tightening the rate of twist from 1-14" to 1-12" to make an arctic environment accuracy requirement reduced the lethality. We're running a 1-7" now, largely so the longer tracer bullets will stabilize, and there's been a lot of head scratching on how to tweak the package to get the old 1-14", 55 grain lethality combination back - - as evidenced by the development of the 77 grain MK262 round, as well as all the other forays into different rounds that will fit in an AR's mag well.

Fiddling with the powder used DESTROYED the reliability, as did not providing ANY cleaning equipment or maintenance instruction. In the '60's, we didn't yet have the ability to chrome plate a bore that small. That might have helped with that bit of mismanagement somewhat, but the powder swap disaster is the real crime - literally so. The forward-assist showed up as a result of that debacle, and, while I feel it's probably a good thing, we still debate its necessity to this day.

A major lesson that one picks up from researching all of this: Actual GUN PEOPLE like Maxim, Lee, Mauser, Borchardt, Luger, Browning, Thompson, Garand, Pedersen, and Stoner had their poop wired TIGHT, and that all it takes is one bureaucratic, lawyeristic, or well-meaning but clueless pinhead trying to justify his paycheck to drive all that genius into the ground.

[nekshot]

thanks for the info! Makes my heart feel warm knowing the AR is better than that blankety blank ak!! That will rile some of you! Now if I could only get a ar10 the same weight as my sons ar15.

[WJP]

AK hands down for me. They may not go bang every time but I haven't found one yet. Closest I've come was my post sample that I shot corrosive out of and never cleaned. I took a tire tool to break the action free and it still ran. 7 years and not cleaned once. I do have a spare barrel on hand for when it gets too bad. That and they are more accurate than most give them credit for. I enjoy AR'S as well, just not as much.

[Tracy]

I've had multiple examples of both AKs and ARs, and my ARs have on the whole been far more reliable than my AKs.
The oft-repeated claim that the AR has been improved over the years to make them more reliable is yet another one of those internet legends that is untrue. What has been done to make it more reliable? The very first run of them were rushed into production without chrome lining, but the AK has chrome lining too. All other changes have either had nothing to do with reliability, or actually been detrimental to reliability.
Forward assist? A misshapen or oversize round failed to go into battery, so instead of ejecting it you're gonna what? Shove it in until it sticks, perhaps still out of battery? Great! That's a bad idea with a Mauser '98, let alone an autoloader!
The only other change that has affected reliability has been the shorter barrels that most ARs have now; which again reduces reliability compared to the original 20" barrel.
I'll take a chrome lined, 20" slickside AR with the original 14" twist over any other AR or any AK.

[Combat Diver]

You can get the AK in 7.62x39, 5.45x39 or 5.56x45. AR-15s avalibile in same and many others. The XM16E1 and M16A1 both had chromed lining during VietNam. As I've got lots of time in the sandbox AKs do fail. I'll take my AR anyday.


CD

[warboar_21]

Only time my Issue M16A2 ever failed was when shooting "New" ammo at the range for qualifying. The ammo was loaded over pressure and was bulging and rupturing primers. It was also locking the bolt back pretty violently. There were several of us who had issues with the ammo and we had to gather up all the ammo and turn it in. They gave us a new lot of ammo and after the armor looked over our rifles we were allowed to requalify.

[kawasakifreak77]

M1 Garand..

[Garyshome]

Yawn... So let's just kick this dead mule one more time!

[Artful]

AK hands down for me. They may not go bang every time but I haven't found one yet. Closest I've come was my post sample that I shot corrosive out of and never cleaned. I took a tire tool to break the action free and it still ran. 7 years and not cleaned once. I do have a spare barrel on hand for when it gets too bad. That and they are more accurate than most give them credit for. I enjoy AR'S as well, just not as much.

I'll see your 7 years and double it and add some - with a FAL
The tale of Ol' Dirty and 16K+ rounds without cleaning.
Well just a dunk in a mud puddle.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68486&highlight=dirty

[303Guy]

On those mud test video's - there are a few videos comparing the AK with the AR for accuracy. Very little to choose from but it was a quality AK.

[shdwlkr]

the M16 of Vietnam started with no cleaning equipment to user, many failures with dirty firearm go figure, the flash supressor was open fingered another bad idea slow twist. Next came the M16A2 closed flash supressor, faster twist, cleaning kit. Then decades later faster twist 1-7 heavier bullet. When I left the Army I swore I would never own a Ar 15 and in the Army I had 75 M16s to care fore. Then a friend let me use his AR15 and what a difference if I were to buy one I would have no problem with the new ones, just wished that the 62 grain round came in 77 grains, but if you hand load that is no big deal.
Ak47 I saw a lot of them that were dumped in canals along with ammo for long periods of time and in the mud many times that still went bang and with corroded ammo no less. Would I buy one nope they were made for simple people to use and of poor quality in my mind from the day I saw my first one way back decades ago. Yes we put on shows for Mom and Dad when they came on post by putting one in sandy water with ammo and just opening the action flushing it out and then firing it with the water spewing out as we fired corroded ammo. Put 5 drops down the muzzle of an M16/AR15 and hope your insurance is paid as I never saw one that didn't come apart very violently. Not saying that this happened to everyone just the ones I saw that we used in training sessions with troops on what not to allow to happen to your weapon.

[Tracy]

M1 Garand.....failed miserably in the mud test; wouldn't even fire the first shot.

[NoAngel]

Every time this debate comes around I have to ask: Soldiers excluded...What the hell are you doing where you get shovel loads of mud in your action? If I can't take reasonable care of my rifle I deserve to have it fail.

[historicfirearms]

Every time this debate comes around I have to ask: Soldiers excluded...What the hell are you doing where you get shovel loads of mud in your action? If I can't take reasonable care of my rifle I deserve to have it fail.
Yeah exactly what you said. The other thing is most people are thinking about shtf scenario. Seriously, you are not going to war. Sneaking around and not getting into a fight is going to be the way to survive. Very different than fighting a battle. Accuracy and stealth will be your friends. If I've got to use my 30 round mags in either my AK or AR I've already messed up.

[NoAngel]

Yeah exactly what you said. The other thing is most people are thinking about shtf scenario. Seriously, you are not going to war. Sneaking around and not getting into a fight is going to be the way to survive. Very different than fighting a battle. Accuracy and stealth will be your friends. If I've got to use my 30 round mags in either my AK or AR I've already messed up.


Years ago I used to think that way. Now, I agree with you. The rifle that will do me more service than any of my ARs is my Savage I'm currently building. .358 Winchester Suppressed and I'm going to work up a slew of good loads including a 230g Thor that's nice and quiet. Silent dump truck.

[Lloyd Smale]

make mine an ar15. Maybe not in Viet Nam but todays ars are as reliable as an ak. Especially when you factor in the old, wore out, cobbled up parts guns that are most AKs. There also a lot more accurate, flatter shooting, lower recoiling and ammo weights less. Nobody will survive a hit by either in the chest and about anyone will survive a hit in the leg or arm by either. You might have found some soldiers back in the 60s that would have swapped there ars for an ak in a heartbeat but I seriously doubt if youd find many that would throw there ars away and pick up some ak47 sitting on the ground today.

[frankenfab]

I can't believe they put mud in that Garand.

[Jack Stanley]

All this is great and even somewhat entertaining . What really made me giggle was the "expert" (Insert the word moron and it would fit better there) Who told me with a straight face the AK 47 was made so it could use the ammo from the M16 . Yes , they live among us .

Jack

[sawinredneck]

All this is great and even somewhat entertaining . What really made me giggle was the "expert" (Insert the word moron and it would fit better there) Who told me with a straight face the AK 47 was made so it could use the ammo from the M16 . Yes , they live among us .

Jack
Well, you can. I wouldn't and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do so, but in theory (and practice as I've heard) the extractor will hold the rim well enough to punch the primer. Now, where that bullets gonna go, that's anyone's guess!

[Multigunner]

I've fired a Chinese made AK clone chambered for the 5.56 NATO. A Commercial semi auto rifle. Don't know if any were ever used by a military.

If the clones built using military spec parts are any indication then the AK is not immune from wear and can have poorly heat treated parts. Depends on where the parts came from and when they were made.

Only reason I own an AK is because I inherited it. I'd never buy one. Don't really care for the AR rifles but they are very accurate at medium ranges when there's not a lot of wind. The AR is handier and comes to the shoulder more smoothly.
I don't consider either to be true rifles, they are intermediate powered carbines.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I am not the expert that many here are on the subject. That said, I did 25 months and 10 days in I Corps with MACV-SOG Advisory Teams, and after my brother went home, the Ranger Company assigned to the 23rd Inf in Chu Lai, and the 196th LIB in Danang after that.

No unit commander had us dunk our M-16's in mud, or water before heading out on little jaunts. We cleaned them every day when we laagered up, and we did not have malfunctions. We could choose weapons from the Conex, but nobody I worked with took anything but their '16 out. I did pack a Thompson one mission, I just had to see what it was like.

I did not ever have an enemy soldier complain about being shot with the M-16 round.

[Lloyd Smale]

Actually your more of a real world expert on this then 95 percent of the posters here. Funny thing is when the ak vs ar arguments and the 9mm vs 45acp for that matter come up on these fourms its seems its the key board commandos not real commandos that want to bash the 9 and 5.56
I am not the expert that many here are on the subject. That said, I did 25 months and 10 days in I Corps with MACV-SOG Advisory Teams, and after my brother went home, the Ranger Company assigned to the 23rd Inf in Chu Lai, and the 196th LIB in Danang after that.

No unit commander had us dunk our M-16's in mud, or water before heading out on little jaunts. We cleaned them every day when we laagered up, and we did not have malfunctions. We could choose weapons from the Conex, but nobody I worked with took anything but their '16 out. I did pack a Thompson one mission, I just had to see what it was like.

I did not ever have an enemy soldier complain about being shot with the M-16 round.

[Combat Diver]

the M16 of Vietnam started with no cleaning equipment to user, many failures with dirty firearm go figure, the flash supressor was open fingered another bad idea slow twist. Next came the M16A2 closed flash supressor, faster twist, cleaning kit. Then decades later faster twist 1-7 heavier bullet. When I left the Army I swore I would never own a Ar 15 and in the Army I had 75 M16s to care fore. Then a friend let me use his AR15 and what a difference if I were to buy one I would have no problem with the new ones, just wished that the 62 grain round came in 77 grains, but if you hand load that is no big deal.
Ak47 I saw a lot of them that were dumped in canals along with ammo for long periods of time and in the mud many times that still went bang and with corroded ammo no less. Would I buy one nope they were made for simple people to use and of poor quality in my mind from the day I saw my first one way back decades ago. Yes we put on shows for Mom and Dad when they came on post by putting one in sandy water with ammo and just opening the action flushing it out and then firing it with the water spewing out as we fired corroded ammo. Put 5 drops down the muzzle of an M16/AR15 and hope your insurance is paid as I never saw one that didn't come apart very violently. Not saying that this happened to everyone just the ones I saw that we used in training sessions with troops on what not to allow to happen to your weapon.

The Mk262 round (77 gr OTM) been in service for almost 15 years already. Was my preferred carry ammo over M855 in Iraq from 03' forward. Toss up between M855A1 and Mk262 now. Did win a case of BH Mk262 at the All Army Matches in 05' and have take a few NC whitetails with it.

CD

[shdwlkr]

I would love to shoot some 77 grain bullets out of a M16/m4 just to see how they preform. Way back in the day all that was available was the 55 grain varmint round. Thanks for posting that heavier rounds are available.

[Artful]

I would love to shoot some 77 grain bullets out of a M16/m4 just to see how they preform. Way back in the day all that was available was the 55 grain varmint round. Thanks for posting that heavier rounds are available.

check your twist rate before ordering 77 grn ammo - Older AR's with less than 1:7 twist won't handle the real heavy bullets.

[shdwlkr]

Artful
If I had a AR15 it would have an 1in7 twist or I wouldn't own it. The slower twist would remind me to much of the 75 I had to take care of a very long time ago. Thanks for the warning

[Larry Gibson]

Actually, match ARs with 20" barrels having 8" twists are the accepted "standard" for match bullets up to 80 gr. A 7.7" twist is considered best for the 85 gr match bullets. The 7" twist is really only needed for the 90 gr match bullets and the really long M856 tracer.

Larry Gibson

[Artful]

Actually, match ARs with 20" barrels having 8" twists are the accepted "standard" for match bullets up to 80 gr. A 7.7" twist is considered best for the 85 gr match bullets. The 7" twist is really only needed for the 90 gr match bullets and the really long M856 tracer.

Larry Gibson

True provided you buy a long barrel - I see lots more 16 inch barrels than 20 these days.

[tankgunner59]

I have 2 Mosins, 1 AK and 1SKS and had planned to get an AR platform. Then disability hit me like a bad check. So the plan is still there when and if the funding ever comes up. I have decided that when I get one it will be chambered for the 6.8 SPC.

[Artful]

I have 2 Mosins, 1 AK and 1SKS and had planned to get an AR platform. Then disability hit me like a bad check. So the plan is still there when and if the funding ever comes up. I have decided that when I get one it will be chambered for the 6.8 SPC.

Tankgunner59 - check out this thread - you might find it interesting
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?334309-Why-the-Army-thinks-it-needs-a-bigger-bullet

[sawinredneck]

I have 2 Mosins, 1 AK and 1SKS and had planned to get an AR platform. Then disability hit me like a bad check. So the plan is still there when and if the funding ever comes up. I have decided that when I get one it will be chambered for the 6.8 SPC.
Loved, and still do, my SKS, but wanted something easier/faster to reload, even with a 30rd mag, stripper clips aren't the future! I seriously looked at AK's, but they were just unreasonably priced IMO. I settled on a DPMS LR-308, because I wasn't heavily invested in 7.62x39. As you are, it might be worth it to you to look at an AR built for 7.62x39. Just my .02

[Rem1903a3]

Check out a Sig 556r if you ever get the chance ,add a Acog ,finest carbine ever .

[David2011]

My first AR-15 was a gift to myself in "celebration" of Nancy Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House. During that time I bought two EOTWAWKI rifles as well, back when new, never issued SKSs were available in crates of 10 rifles with their manufacturing documentation. While I don't consider myself a prepper I just wanted something to shoot the other cartridge that would likely be available in a crisis situation. Never owned an AK but have an AR that will shoot with the best varmint rifles with my handloads. For some reason that rifle will only shoot 3" or a little bigger with factory 55 grain FMJ but with Sierra 53 grain MatchKings it has shot under 1/2" at 100 yards and correspondingly well at 200. I don't expect that of any 7.62x39.

[Combat Diver]

My latest build for myself last month. Then built two basic carbines for son and wife as back ups to their other ARs.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/aab0d1e9-463b-428c-8e7e-b5278d3620cf.jpg

Still have two Green Mountain 18" SS barrels (1:6 & 1:5) to build for long range, 3 carbines for the grandkids and a 6.8 SPC for hunting. Have taken several from the 14.5" 5.56mm Mk262 but going to step up to a bit more power.


CD

[garym1a2]

I dont care for the AK47 so much but I have a Russian made AK74 and it is a very good Rifle, with the left side scope mount its easy to scope it. You just have to watch the ammo as some of it is not good quality. Evan AKs should be kept clean and lubed. If I needed it for SD against herds of Zombies it would work. I had it jam once in a 3gun match. I could not open it by hand. But a simple bump on a wall and it cleared. With the AR when it jams you have to use the mortor technique or tools.
If I had to hit the woods with a rifle it would be my 14.5 inch M4 still as its light and very reliable, so is my M&P sport. It would be too heavy to carry my 20 inch Hbar.
As all most people shoot with ARS are 55 or 62 grain bullets why such a fast twist as a 1:7? I like 1:9 for best all around with these bullets. I never had a 1:12 AR so I dont know how they shoot.

[Adam Helmer]

The Question of M-16 versus AK-47 was decided in Vietnam. Our "Matel 16" did not ever beat the AK-47. I was issued an M-16 in July 1965 and knew that "Woodchuck Round" was a waste product of the Military Industrial Complex. All hype aside, give me an M14.

Adam

[Multigunner]

I've test fired the AK, the AR and the Mini-14 based Mini-30 in 7.62x39 and of the three I found the Mini-30 the most handy and easy to bring to the shoulder quickly to fire fast and accurate shots.
I've never liked the looks of the Mini-14, and I'm sure it has drawbacks I'm not aware of.

For pin point accuracy at close range, when only a tiny bit of the target is exposed from behind substantial cover or a hostage is used as a shield, out to 150 yards or so a sight line that's close to the bore line is to be preferred over the high line of sight of the modern assault rifle and its civilian clones.

For fixed or pre zeroed elevation sights and ranges past 150 yards out to 400 yards the high line of sight is best, requiring minimum hold over or hold under depending on ranges.

The high sight line is better for most military applications while the low line of sight is best for a police patrol carbine.

[Combat Diver]

Biggest drawback for the Mini 14 is spare parts. Has to come from Ruger and good luck getting a spare bolt. No issues with the AR or AK.


CD

[Larry Gibson]

True provided you buy a long barrel - I see lots more 16 inch barrels than 20 these days.

Even with a true "CAR" length barrel the above mentioned loads stabilized are stabilized in the same twists. The abundance of 16" barrels is simply a continuum of what the military is using.....the M4 series with 7" twists to stabilize the long tracer bullet......and is not indicative of what twist is actually required for stabilization of the bullets normally used......the 55 to 77 gr bullets........

Larry Gibson

[Rainier]

Seems like the OP is asking which people prefer, the AR vs. the AK in case theres a Zombie apocalypse. That being the case, the M16A1 was a fine rifle as far as this young and dumb 17 year old kid was concerned but it does have one shortcoming, IMO, a .22 caliber bullet. Flash forward a few years and the young and dumb 17 year old choose the proven 1950's technology - the M1A was the answer! Until... Armalite commercially introduced the AR platform in .308 - Oh my, all bets were off. The AK never did, nor ever will, feel comfortable for my frame and the 7.62x39 sure is a fine round for what it is but I prefer the .308.
As sawinredneck points out, an AR platform in .308 seems to be the best of the non-belted world for some of us. Just to recap, you get; box fed magazines, .308 Win / 7.62x51, in an updated version of Stoner's AR rifle, commercially available - not a hard decision for me. Outside of an MG42 (that would just be fun to have!) or an M60 I'm puzzled why people consider anything besides the AR-10 or the M1A for Zombies - but I’m easily puzzled. :smile:

[Artful]

Even with a true "CAR" length barrel the above mentioned loads stabilized are stabilized in the same twists. The abundance of 16" barrels is simply a continuum of what the military is using.....the M4 series with 7" twists to stabilize the long tracer bullet......and is not indicative of what twist is actually required for stabilization of the bullets normally used......the 55 to 77 gr bullets........

Larry Gibson


http://laissezfirearm.info/tracer.htm



One of the first questions that new owners of AR-15A2s ask gun geeks like myself is just how in the heck the military decided to settle on rifling with a 1-in-7" twist rate, since it has been reported to cause premature barrel burnout.


http://laissezfirearm.info/rounds3.jpg
Figure 1: (L to R) M193, Hirtenberger SS109, LC M856, Sierra 80-gr BTHP

Well, the answer is the L110 tracer round (American designation M856), which was adopted at about the same time as the European SS109s, American M855, and Canadian C77 steel-core rounds. This projectile required the special attention because it's very long for a .223 -- 1-3/32" by my Starrett. It stands 1/32" taller than the Sierra 80-grain bullet that was the impetus behind the 1-in-8" twist barrels now in favor with match shooters faced with the slow-fire 600-yard stage of the NRA DCM Service Rifle course. As shown above, a major difference between the last two is that the Sierra bullet is sufficiently streamlined up front as to require seating the bullet so far out that the cartridges will not fit into the magazine as there is not enough surface area to grip prior to that point, and thus they must be loaded individually into the chamber. The front portion of the L110/M856, on the other hand, closely follows the profile of the standard ball bullet, with the cannelure (the notched or grooved area into which the mouth of the cartridge case is crimped) appearing approximately the same distance from the top of the projectile as the standard ball rounds, which means that the bulk of the actual tracer section is contained within the hull.

The L110/M856 was designed to deliver an 800-meter visible burn, an incredible requirement considering the initial mass of the bullet (one I pulled weighed in at 60.6 grains). Given our current state of the art in chemistry, this calls for a large percentage of the original package's weight to be tossed overboard during transit. Physics then obviously demands an increasing level of deviance in the projectile's path from the 62-grain ball rounds that it was intended to emulate.

As I have never read an article that actually documented the degree of variance, I decided to test it myself.

I unfortunately did not have a M249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) on hand to test the bullet's intended performance out to 800 yards, so I selected my sole 1-in-7" twist AR-15 upper, a 16" lightweight-barrel Colt, and placed it on my Eagle match lower, which has a crisp 4.6-lb trigger. In order to lessen the effects of simple sighting errors from the equation, I stuck a 3X9X40mm Nikon scope onto the carrying handle via an ARMS mount and Burris steel Zee rings.


http://laissezfirearm.info/testbed.jpg
Figure 2: The Test Vehicle (notice the silhouettes at 200 and 300 yards?)

I managed to stumble across twenty rounds of '86 Lake City M856 at a Fayetteville gun show a few years back, and used these for the test. They had an orange tip on the bullet, a ring-crimped primer, and were headstamped with the NATO cross-in-circle emblem followed by LC and 86 at 7 and 5 o'clock respectively. I have more tracers on hand, but they came from different case lots, dug out from the cheap, mixed (nominally Israeli) piles of dirty, stomped-on, and often de-linked .223 ammo that appeared in the wake of Desert Storm.

The SS109 ammunition I chose for comparison was Austrian Hirtenberger with green lacquer on the triple-staked primer and bullet tip. This particular round is headstamped 83 / 5.56 / .223 at the twelve, four, and eight o'clock positions. The case I purchased has proven astoundingly accurate (the first ten shots out of my super-heavy-barrel Eagle AR went into 2.65" at 200 yards), and its cousins are still available on the commercial market. I paid 20 cents a round at a Raleigh show, a truly schweeet deal these days.

Methodology

I began each series at the selected distances of 200 and 300 yards by sighting-in the rifle. It rested on a sandbag that touched the front of the magazine well, to reduce the upward pressure on the barrel. Firing the Hirtenberger ammunition until an acceptable zero was acquired on the left-hand member of the pair of targets placed at each marker, I then pasted the resulting holes and fired an "official" five-round SS109 group. After permitting the the barrel to cool down for ten minutes, I then switched to the M856 for a five-round group on the right-hand target. After recording the results, I then pasted both targets and began the second relay at each distance. To ensure that the scope did not shift under recoil, I fired a final five-round group on a clean target with ball at both ranges.

The Results

200 yards:
Ball Target One - 4-5/8"
Tracer Target One - 11-1/8" (one miss)
Ball Target Two (second relay) - 5-1/16"
Tracer Target Two - 9-1/2"
Final Ball Target at 200 yards - 5-1/2"
300 yards:
Ball Target One - 7-3/8"
Tracer Target One - 18-1/8" (two misses)
Ball Target Two (second relay) - 10-1/16"
Tracer Target Two - 22-3/4" (three misses)
Final Ball Target at 300 yards - 8-9/16"
Shown below are pictures taken during the first series fired at each distance (I set out with only six snaps left in my 110 Instamatic, so sue me). Reverse-color pasters were used to make the hits more obvious.


http://laissezfirearm.info/ball200.jpg
Figure 3: 200-yard Ball Target One


http://laissezfirearm.info/trace200.jpg
Figure 4: 200-yard Tracer Target One


http://laissezfirearm.info/ball300.jpg
Figure 5: 300-yard Ball Target One


http://laissezfirearm.info/trace300.jpg
Figure 6: 300-yard Tracer Target One

As the photos show, the raw group-size information is a bit misleading. The M856's shot noticeably to the right at both ranges (approximately 4 inches at 200 yards and 6-10 inches at 300 yards), in addition to being about 7.5 inches high at 200 yards. I don't have a chronograph, and thus speculate -- admittedly perhaps wrongly -- that what occurred is due to the much-greater bearing surface (as illustrated in Figure 1, the amount of surface area that actually comes in contact with the rifling) of the M856 combining with the lessened case powder capacity to reduce the initial velocity sufficiently to permit the operator to rotate a bit and move the barrel slightly upward under recoil. The fact that the rounds dropped back down to an acceptable elevation at 300 yards bodes ill for anyone hoping to hit anything other than dirt at greater distances, as diminishing weight and an inefficient projectile profile that is not very wind-resistant team up to further slow the bullet, allowing gravity (which thus has a longer period of time to work on the tracer vs. the ball round for the same amount of distance traveled) to do its thing.

So what are the implications of my results? Well, if I was a militia type, I'd rag on the round for its dubious fire-control capabilities at ranges past 300 yards. But I'm not, and the only use I have for tracers is to stick two or three at the bottom of each magazine in order to alert myself when I'm about to run dry (as suggested by Peter Kokalis). Since the L110/M856 is an iffy proposition at even 200 yards, I'd be happy to switch to the older and cheaper American M196 tracer, but here's a final bit of nastiness: the tracing compound used in these projectiles appears to have a much shorter shelf-life than the cartridge as a whole, yielding reliable ignition for maybe fifteen years or so. I recently picked up a pristine twenty-eight year old box of Twin Cities M196 at a show for five bucks, and experienced a 70% failure rate, with the "successes" igniting at wildly varying distances. Criminy!

Anyone know if Hornady plans to expand its "Vector" line to rifle calibers?

(As soon as I can get more of the M856s in, I'll repeat the above testing procedure but fire twice as many rounds at each distance, and add an initial stage at 100 yards. See you then.)



Ah, going back to my link I now see it was the 80 grain they used.

[Love Life]

believe it or not, but the 5.56 does a pretty good job of killing bad guys.

here is another secret that just might blow your minds: Operators who operate daily clean their weapons quite frequently.

Only mouth breathing retards neglect their weapons.

[Love Life]

Believe it or not, but the 5.56 does a pretty good job of killing bad guys.

Here is another secret that just might blow your minds: Operators who operate daily clean their weapons quite frequently. You fell in the mud? Ok, now dump your canteen on the weapon to wash mud off. Liberal application of CLP to critical parts, and carry on. Next patrol base you will clean your weapon while your buddies post security and gripe about not having jalapeno cheese in their MRE.

Only mouth breathers neglect their weapons.

[StanleyMcGregor]

AR-15 rifles are lighter and have a higher rate of accuracy than the AK-47, but the AK-47 is considerably cheaper and more dependable in comparison. Both are extensively used by the military and police, as well as for general purpose hunting rifles and self-defense. Both are assault rifles.

[Jack Stanley]

If it's just a matter of what I prefer . After having two versions of the AK and two of the SKS I still prefer the AR for accuracy primarily . The others were fun to blast with when ammo was MUCH cheaper than what it is now . But that fun wasn't enough to make me want to keep the 7.62x39 around after the surplus dried up and costs matched AR ammo .

Jack

[ikarus1]

AR-15 rifles are lighter and have a higher rate of accuracy than the AK-47, but the AK-47 is considerably cheaper and more dependable in comparison. Both are extensively used by the military and police, as well as for general purpose hunting rifles and self-defense. Both are assault rifles.
An assault rifle by definition is select fire. An AR15 is a semi-auto, sporting rifle as designed and sold first by Colt in 1964.

No select-fire option means not an assault rifle. That term has been hijacked by antigun media as a means to demonize the most popular rifle in America.

Heres the original 1964 ad.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170605/0a7afc81c32723cfa042dfa755950821.jpg

[M-Tecs]

AR-15 rifles are lighter and have a higher rate of accuracy than the AK-47, but the AK-47 is considerably cheaper and more dependable in comparison. Both are extensively used by the military and police, as well as for general purpose hunting rifles and self-defense. Both are assault rifles.

Current AR prices are well below AK prices. In the semi-auto civilian version neither one is an assult rifle except to the mindless liberal idots. Most actally know what an assult rifle is but since they want to ban all semi-autos they push the misinformation. The reliability issue has not been true since early Vietnam.

[Shiloh]

From post #4

"Watch some "torture tests" AK v. AR15
You will be surprised"

As they said in the video "This myth has been going on way too long"

The AK fan boys ****-ume a whole lot


Some of these vids show that they can all be made to be non functioning clubs.
Good thread.

Shiloh

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3kComQz40o

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaT0oDivRq8

[Combat Diver]

Get several of both......Behind my desk in Iraq 05'.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809gun_rack_2.jpg


CD

[Artful]

CD, can you tell us more about the AK w/ the red dot - thanks in advance

[Combat Diver]

CD, can you tell us more about the AK w/ the red dot - thanks in advance

Bulgarian (circle 10) select fire AKM, Surefire railed forearm, Aimpoint M68, KAC VFG.

CD