Ghost Pulling Bullets Out After Seating

[RGMJ]

Hi Guys,

I was loading some 45 bullets for my ACP. The bullets are the Lee cast 230 gr lubed with Alox.

I noted after loading that some bullets had moved out of the set seating depth. I thought it was my seating die but found it happens even after I adjusted it.

Later, I finally solved the riddle. I found that is was due to compressed air in the bullet. As I seated the bullet, the air beneath the bullet was being compressed and could not escape. So with light crimp, the bullet would slowly creep out. I even held one loaded round and saw how the bullet was slowly inching its way out- as if a ghost was pulling the bullet out!! I noted that some of the primers also popped out of their holes. Is this normal ?

I solved the bullet moving problem by putting a tighter crimp. But it may have compressed the bullet a bit.

Have you guys experienced this weird event while loading ACP ? How do you prevent or minimize it ?

Thanks for any reply

[Hickory]

I can't ever remember having that problem.
I once tried a slow burning powder one time that required a compressed charge that moved the bullet, but not enough to worry about, I'm thinking it was less then 0.010".

[Bird]

Yes, that can happen with any lubed bullet. Just apply a little more crimp. Measure a few samples before you go to the range. If you load them on a cold day in your reloading room and then take them out to a hotter environment, the air pressure in the case will increase and can push the bullet out further. The primers should not fall out. That is a sign of worn, over expanded primer pockets.

[Wayne Smith]

Beware cases where the primer pushes out from air pressure - they are way too lose! Boolit movement is common - at least for me. I've seen it in pistol and rifle cases. A well lubed boolit with a tight neck does not allow the air by, and air does not compress easily at all.

[DougGuy]

Wow you seriously need to begin checking your 45 ACP loads using the push test *IF* you are using them in an autoloader! The danger arises when not enough crimp prevents the boolit from becoming set back into the case when the round is stripped from the magazine and shoved forward into the feed ramp. Pressures can SKYROCKET, and you can blow the gun up in your hands. It's happened before to a member on this forum not long ago. They got lucky, it destroyed the gun but they weren't injured.

[racepres]

and air does not compress easily at all.

Much more easily than any solid or Liquid however...

[jmorris]

I even held one loaded round and saw how the bullet was slowly inching its way out-

Can you set it back up and post a video, would be a neat one to have.

[gwpercle]

I have been reloading for a long time and loaded lots of 45 acp....and never had that happen.

What exactly is the powder , charge weight , case , primer and boolit used....this isn't a common everyday happening.
If air can't be compressed then every round loaded, rifle or handgun, either the boolit or the primer will push out ????? What's up !
Gary

[David2011]

I have had that happen loading on a single stage press while developing loads and crimping separately from seating. I started taper crimping the mouth to .469" and haven't had it happen since. SAAMI spec on the case mouth is .473" but I'm not getting leading and the accuracy is good so I left it at .469". FWIW I've seen other published specs at .471".

The cases were not full to the bottom of the boolits so there was plenty of air trapped and iirc the boolits were Saeco 200 gr SWCs.

David

[JSnover]

I had that happen with cast in 45-70, drove me pretty near nuts. My jacketed bullets didn't do it and I solved the problem by accident with my cast loads, just by reducing neck tension.

[Soundguy]

Much more easily than any solid or Liquid however...

Air compresses VERY easily.

My rounds all get the push against the bench test.

Projectile moving on its own is dismal, primers pushing out is worse.

[Wayne Smith]

It's easy to make happen. Just load your 45-70 for single shot shooting by not sizing but simply loading the boolit in the unsized neck. It was routine, and I had to put a light crimp on it to hold the boolit still. It was still the most accurate load for my friend's Trapdoor.

[jmorris]

It's easy to make happen.

Maybe you could post a video for us?

[Wayne Smith]

Don't know how and don't load for that rifle any more. It's in north central Wisconsin. Never intentionally made a video in my life!

[376Steyr]

I suspect a mismatch between case wall thickness, sizing die, and bullet diameter may be the culprit. Years ago I had some factory brass with extra-thin case walls, coupled with a slightly oversize sizing die, with jacketed bullets. You could push the bullets deeper into the case with your fingers. I bet they would have shown the creeping problem you describe.

[jmorris]

I decided to see what kind of numbers we were talking about in general, so I took a 45 ACP case and drilled/tapped it for 1/8" NPT. I didn't want the volume of the gauge and elbow to skew the results so I filled them with water vs compressing the additional volume of air.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Bullet%20pressure/IMG_20170507_141204_312-1_zpshppzvn0f.jpg

I couldn't get any sustainable pressure just seating a bullet to begin with, what pressure did develop, escaped. So I added sealant to the bullet, started it, then set a "zero" for length.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Bullet%20pressure/IMG_20170507_142905_549-1_zpseksg9j7r.jpg

Now my water in the gauge portion didn't account for the extra volume of air I introduced into the case by drilling out the bottom, so I seated the bullet extra deep.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Bullet%20pressure/IMG_20170507_142023_219-1_zpszyafipxc.jpg

With the sealant I was able to maintain the pressure created and it made 8 psi (from the angle of the photo it looks like 7.5 but you'll have to trust me).

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Bullet%20pressure/IMG_20170507_142957_420-1_zpswufwfpwd.jpg

I didn't expect a lot of pressure and it will be different with different combinations so that lead right into the next question. How much pressure would it take to move a bullet in the case when everything is correct?

So I took another case and drilled/tapped it and got another bullet, didn't want the sealant to mess with my results, and applied pressure starting at zero and went just over 130 PSI and the bullet didn't budge.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/Bullet%20pressure/IMG_20170507_145954_174-1-1_zpsbpvqrc5h.jpg

This too wasn't a huge surprise either as the SI part of PSI is the important part. A .452" bullet has a radius of .266, for an area of .160, X 130 psi = holding against 20.8 lbs of force trying to push it out, unsuccessfully.

I'll connect a higher pressure gauge and get an actual number of what it takes when I get a chance but I answered my question as to why I had never seen the phenomenon.

[Soundguy]

Agreed. I push my seated rounds against my bench after making them, that 20# number is very realistic as what they would see pushing on the bench.

I think the ones levitating by air pressure have poor taper crimp, undersized projectiles, or poor brass cases, either thin or too springy.( bad alloy )

[z28z34man]

Could this happen if someone forgot to resize there brass or used an incorrect case expanding die. I would think neck tension alone should withhold the pressure from seating a bullet. If it doesn't it would have no chance being slammed forward in a semi auto pistol

[Char-Gar]

With well over 1/4 million rounds of 45 ACP loaded over the past 50 years, I have never had such a thing happen and I have never pushed the nose of a loader round against a bench top.

Get a 45 ACP Taper Crimp die and learn how to adjust it properly and all such problems will vanish. Your loads will feed better, will not creep forward, nor deep seat when hitting the feed ramp of the pistol.

[jmorris]

The bullet shouldn't move after being seated even if you haven't crimped yet.

If the bullet moves with just the few PSI that may or may not exist in the case, you don't have enough neck tension.

[richmanpoorman]

Taper crimp die !

[Taterhead]

The bullet shouldn't move after being seated even if you haven't crimped yet.

If the bullet moves with just the few PSI that may or may not exist in the case, you don't have enough neck tension.

This is the right answer.

If a 45 auto round lacks proper neck tension, it cannot be corrected with a taper crimp die.

Tension is a function of the dimensions of the inside diameter of the case neck and the outside diameter of the projectile. The former being a tad smaller. The heal of the bullet cannot be larger than the shank of the bullet or it will act like an expander ball/plug and enlarge the ID of the neck.