357 cases stronger than 38s?

[wiljen]

I was questioning the conventional wisdom that 357 cases are made stronger than 38s and that 38 +P cases are stronger than 38 cases so decided to do a little study.

I weighed several 38 special cases tonight just to get an idea of the differences in them. These are all nickel cases - once fired without primers.


Headstamp Weight (Avg of 20)
FC 88 65.3gr
Federal 38 Special 65.7gr
Federal 38 SPL +P 65.1gr
FC 38 SPL +P+ 65.7gr

R-P 38 SPL 63.4gr
R-P 38 SPL +P 64.7gr

(AVG of 5)
R-P 357 Mag trimmed to 38 length 65.9gr
FC 357 Mag trimmed to 38 length 66.2gr


From a rough sample it would appear that the only difference among 38, +P, and +P+ is the headstamp on the case. It also appears that 357 Magnum brass is not significantly stronger than 38 brass based on weight comparisons.

[Alchemist]

I've always suspected that the headstamp only applied to the factory load in .38 Spl cases...it would just cost too much more to have all the different specs to keep up with. Simpler to just change the headstamp for the +P/+P+.....

Alchemist

[Ricochet]

That's exactly what I'd always assumed, that the various Special cases have different headstamps and the .357s have a longer body.

(Ancient balloon head Special cases excepted.)

[missionary5155]

I would have to agree... they all split after X amount of reloading... But that seems to be so many it is mute to me.... Having some that were reloaded more than 20 times ( I stop counting after 20 and those become my plinking anywhere brass) I cannot complain with the quality of U.S. brass.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Thanks for sharing your experiment.

It follows that .357s don't need "stronger" brass than .38s. I'm thinking of the 38/44 and the pre-.357 hot rodding that went on. No reports of failed brass. The chamber contains the pressure, the brass is the gasket. Even as the firing case moves backward until it contacts the frame, even at that most exposed point, the bottom of the primer pocket is still inside the chamber, and hence the web of the case is also. Granted that area of the case has thicker walls whether .38s or .357s, but evidently much thicker, over-engineered, than needed (thank goodness).

I think of the folks that use 2400 under 180 gr .357 boolits, put up in .38 cases. They work just fine. I can't see any reason for there to be any difference other than length between .38s and .357. Of course same applies for +P .38 as they are only slightly higher pressure than .38 spl.

I'll bet that mixing headstamps results in less of difference in group size than using untrimmed, mixed length, mixed crimped brass.

Thanks again for the data.

[S.R.Custom]

In any given caliber, cases of approximately the same weight will be of similar strength, regardless of headstamp. This is because all small arms cartridge brass is made to a standard strength, 60K psi yield strength, if I remember correctly...

http://www.astm.org/Standards/B129.htm

You'll have to pay to read, but the bottom line is-- "It's all the same."

[jawjaboy]

Good post. Along this same subject, I found this interesting as well.

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3334

[leftiye]

As the Aflac goat says - Naaaaaaaaaaah

[wiljen]

Good post. Along this same subject, I found this interesting as well.

http://www.glockpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3334


That is interesting because from the visual, I would say the 357 should be considerably heavier than the 38.

[beagle]

Will....good study.

I can't see a manufacturer making seperate dies to draw .357s either.

I've always thought they were the same strength relatively considering magnum loads in the .357.

When I did the "Hot .38 Special" article, I selected 200 once fired WW .38 Special cases without canulures. These were loaded in 25 round lots with various charges of one powder. All were "above book" .38 loads. I'd say I must have fired 3,000 rounds during that test all through a .357 Ruger Blackhawk. This was with the old .38-44 classic bullets and old .38-44 loads I'd resurected from old Lyman literature some of which were fairly warm for .38 cases (IMO) and some new powders that I worked up loads for. They really took a beating.

I experienced one split neck as I recall and the remainder are still loaded with hot .38 Loads.

Now, nickel plated stuff, be it .38 Specail or .357 Magnum seldom lasts very long and spits...many times half the length of the case.

Wish one or more of the major case manufacturers would finally come right out and say, "Yeah, they're of equal strength". Don't think i'll hold my breath on that though./beagle

[Bass Ackward]

Just bear in mind that because a case weights the same, that it is the same strength. Or that even if they are made exactly the same just shorter that they are the same strength.

Anneal is going, or should be anyway, to be different. A softer case, is not necessarily going to handle the same thing. But a case that operates at 18,000 is going to need softer to seal where 36,000 will require harder not to stick.

[wiljen]

Bass, I agree that even with weight the same, there remains the possibility of differences in cases. I do not give the factories as much credit as you do. My suspicion is they make the cases using the same tooling and anneal for the 357. I say that as the last several hundred factory 38s I fired ended up with sooted cases upon extraction where they didn't expand to fit the chambers. I think the factories used to make different brass, but I think as pressure to consolidate product lines to increase profits continues, they have started working on the basis of least common denominator.

[beagle]

Will, I'm agreeing. No way they'll buy different tooling for different cases between .38s and .357s. We've been there in manufacturing and know how the penny pinchers work.

Yes, maybe back in the past but not now.

I'm betting that Starline which is a latecomer uses the same dies as it don't make any difference in the long run as there's nothing save in the process so why buy extra, expensive dies....and your research shows that this is basically what's happening.

Another thing, I'm not sure pistol cases get much of an aneal. Just a hit and miss to make the case mouth soft and facilitate reloading for the first time. The manufacturers don't care if the case mouth splits after the first firing. Us crazies out here that reload will just buy more.

The old days of the beautiful anealing on National Match cases and Remington Palma Match cases are gone. To me, this was an indication of quality. Now, they aneal and polish the discoloring off so there's no telling what we're getting.

Today, it's the bottom line./beagle

[runfiverun]

bet the diffs between brands still exists, i have noticed diffs between them over the chrono.
and you can see the different hardness of brands when you blow out a case to ackley it.
i just cut open a bunch of diff 257 bob cases and the thickness of a +p compared to a regular
case is quite a bit in the body and web area.
comparing a 7x57 to a standard 257 they are similar and i was going to cut a 6mm rem
but only had new ,and once fired cases, so i didn't. [yes i'm cheap]

[rugerdude]

I'm not 100% sure about the differences between .38 & .357 cases, but I do know that the only difference between Starline's .38 & .38+P is the headstamp. They are made to exactly the same specs. And I'd be willing to wager that the .357 cases are the same just longer. The only ".357 family" case that is really different is the .357 Max. Remington used the final draw before neck forming from the .223 to make the Max. case, so the case head on it is MUCH thicker.

[Dale53]

I'm sure most of us are aware that using the shorter .38 Special case with actual .357 powder charges can SERIOUSLY raise pressures because of the lesser powder space in the shorter case. I think that with this discussion we should point this out for some of the "newbies" who may be watching that may not be aware of this in the discussion on "strength" of the various cases.

Just a "heads up"...

I, personally, am reluctant to load .38/44 loads in .38 Special cases as I regularly carry a 642 and I sure do NOT wish to accidentally get a .38/44 load in that platform! My "heavy" .38's are all .357's and I will use .357 cases for those heavy loads, without exception. Just my methodology of trying to stay out of trouble.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

+1 to Dale53's practice.

I would be seriously distressed if I ever did something to bend my fine old Colt OMT, and I've enough firearms difficulties this year to last me a decade or so. Don't ask.

[Nueces]

Is that "Don't ask", as in "Don't ask, I'm in a very existential place, from which I can't tell", or "Don't ask, but I really want you to, I'm dying to tell all about it", or "Don't ask. Really. I mean it."

I'm just asking...:mrgreen:

Mark

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I did the same experiment as Beagle did. Even to using a ruger blackhawk. Shot at least 5,000 rounds.
With the same results.
Only difference is case length as far as I could tell.:Fire:

[JFE]

FWIW 357 at least used to be more heavily constructed than 38 Spec. Generally the 357's had thicker walls and some brands had a thicker web. Have not checked this in years as I dont have either caliber anymore. Only way to check would be to section the head area of each case to check construction.

Joe

[DLCTEX]

I don't get the negative comment about Speer 40 cases made by one of the posters after the pictures. There is a difference in the junction of the wall and web on the left side, but it appears to me to be caused by the milling machine. The right side is a little flared, and the left looks torn. Can't make a case on one sample, unless you have a predjudice you want to uphold. DALE

[Bret4207]

I'm sure most of us are aware that using the shorter .38 Special case with actual .357 powder charges can SERIOUSLY raise pressures because of the lesser powder space in the shorter case. I think that with this discussion we should point this out for some of the "newbies" who may be watching that may not be aware of this in the discussion on "strength" of the various cases.

Just a "heads up"...

I, personally, am reluctant to load .38/44 loads in .38 Special cases as I regularly carry a 642 and I sure do NOT wish to accidentally get a .38/44 load in that platform! My "heavy" .38's are all .357's and I will use .357 cases for those heavy loads, without exception. Just my methodology of trying to stay out of trouble.

Dale53

2 thoughts to add to Uncle Dales post- Way back when the 38 Special was young they had the balloon head or folded head design. Those cases were in existence for decades and thats where a lot of the belief that 38's were weaker than 357 cases came about. You won't find an Elmer Keith article very often where he doesn't mention the older cases. The 357 never had those design cases TTBOMK.

As to the possibility of mixing heavy and light loads- I use 38 brass for my Colt Officers Model, S+W Bodyguard, M-19 and M-27. The light loads in 38 brass get the 358477 or H+G #50 WC, the medium loads get the 358156 and the heavy "Magnum 38" loads for the M-27 get the 358429 or Lee 180FN. The profiles are different enough to avoid confusion, for me anyway. You can also use nickeled brass to designate a load. YMMV.

[Echo]

+1 Bret4207 - use GI .38 brass w/hard cast RN for 'standard' .38 Special loads, nickle cases for 'Hot' loads, and load one load for each boolit. With the variety of CB's available, , it's easy to discrimate by boolit type and form. I reload for a friend, and use mixed cases for her - when she can keep them all in the black at 25 yards I will start segregating cases.

And I don't load .38's to emulate .357's! I guess my hottest load is 13 grs 2400 behind a 125 gr CN Billy Bullet - admittedly hot, but shoots in my Model 15 to point of aim.