Considering a revolver for my mother (and dad)

[adam_mac84]

Parents had an 'almost' break-in (cops got him at the window... had been chasing him).

Dad was 1000 miles away when it happened, and mom was home alone. Dad was rattled enough he asked me to teach them to shoot and he wants to get a pistol for the house (long gun is not preferable at this time).

I have all semi-auto pistols. Will be working with mom on the .22 to start off.

My brain was thinking a hammerless revolver may be a good option for them. I do not see them ever being recreational or high volume shooters. If they want, they may always shoot my stuff if they start going that direction.

My rationale for revolver was less moving parts. Mom is not an invalid, but does not have strong hands (arthritis). I am concerned about her manipulating slides/failures etc if necessary, which is where the revolver came into my mind. Dad had an idea about leaving mag out in storage for safety on an semi-auto (grandkids). I squashed that and said, you will get a biometric safe to keep it in. Quick access and safe storage.

For load, i was thinking something like the Hornady Lite in 38 caliber. Any experiences with these?

Am I way off in my rationale on a gun for less experienced operators, and one with less than avg hand strength?

Obviously it'd be great if they were more into shooting and got extremely proficient, but I do not see that. I may encourage them on a defense length shotgun in 16/20ga, but i think that'd be a tough sell.

They do have a backstop I have put up at their house, so they can do occasional practice. I have recommended they do at least some every month to keep familiar.

[modified5]

A revolver is a great choice. When I am speaking with someone who is an inexperienced shooter, I always ask first how much practice will they really put in.
If it is very little, I always recommend a revolver. As long as the cylinder doesn't lock up, if there is a misfire, they just have to pull the trigger again.
No racking the slide, dropping a mag, or having to worry about jam clearing.

I dont have personal experience with the load you mentioned but suspect it would be more than sufficient.

[adam_mac84]

for reference...

http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-90-gr-FTX-Critical-Defense-lite/

[GhostHawk]

I agree that .22 is a good place to start. For your mom it may be a good enough place to quit. I personally lean towards the Rugers, have a pair of Mk III's 22/45's, his and hers. 10 in mag plus one in the chamber and aim for eyeballs. It may not be perfect but it can be a very good deterrent, and a bit of practice gives you a mag change and 10 more for backup.

For dad yes, hammerless 38/.357 would be a good choice IMO.
But I know I would never get my wife to shoot one. She's 61, and does great with the .22lr, but recoil and muzzle blast would discombumalate her, screw with her head and throw off her aim.

Just my opinion, but I would rather have them able to put 10 into a pop bottle cap cap at 7 yards consistently than have a gun with more stopping power that they are afraid of and won't shoot, practice with.

Of course for me, pistol is just to get me to the shotgun or rifle.
Useful, but only one step on the path.

PS Momma says "no big booms" find a .22 that suits your mom and get her to put 50 rounds a week through it.

[psweigle]

No, in my opinion, you are spot on in your thinking. But I would consider a center fire cartridge for reliability.

[rancher1913]

my MIL was in the same boat, they had a guy just walk in their house and it scared her so she got a 12 gauge double barrel coach gun. she did not want any ammo, just the gun because she was afraid that her husband with dementia might do something stupid with it, so she just has the gun, but no thief will know its not loaded and staring down a double barrel tends to make people go away.

[adam_mac84]

my mil was in the same boat, they had a guy just walk in their house and it scared her so she got a 12 gauge double barrel coach gun. She did not want any ammo, just the gun because she was afraid that her husband with dementia might do something stupid with it, so she just has the gun, but no thief will know its not loaded and staring down a double barrel tends to make people go away. . I like her style!!!!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

r ...

[adam_mac84]

Thank you Three-Fifty-Seven.

My idea for hammerless was minimal moving parts. Your opinions are very helpful. I am a total noob in the revolver world

[bluelund79]

I second 357's sentiments. Snubbys aren't that much fun to shoot, and a good 357 loaded with good 38 specials will be better suited for lesser recoil and better accuracy. 4" barrels are pretty easy to find. I taught my Mom on my Model 10 Smith. My Dad has tried to get her to shoot one for 40 years, she retired first and asked me to teach her. It was a lot of fun being able to give back, and it was a great excuse for Dad to get a new gun, mold and reloading components for her.

[Walkingwolf]

I also believe that a 22 is a good starting point for someone with hand issues. A cocking adapter can be added for the Ruger Mark series pistol. Should also consider a Ruger 10/22. Pointing a rifle is probably going to result in more rounds in the bad guy, plus the report is much lower than a handgun.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

s ...

[Bzcraig]

I agree with your assessment of a revolver for both. It sounds like even the recoil of light 38 loads might be a bit much for your mom. If getting more than one gun isn't an option, I'd be leaning toward a 9 shot revolver in 22mag

[adam_mac84]

Awesome! Say a prayer for a nice 4" in the used case. Heading to the LGS tomorrow to shoot a few rentals.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

... :)

[charlie b]

How old are they and what is their "mental state"?

It takes a certain mindset to accept the idea that you are going to kill someone. Some people can't do it and they are the ones who are sometimes killed with their own gun because they just can't pull the trigger on some young kid. The lady mentioned above who wanted an empty shotgun to intimidate is a good example. I'd also pull the firing pins so it could not be used against her.

If they can do this, and have the hand/arm strength and steadiness to do this, then go ahead. Some older folks develop 'shaky' hands and cannot hold a pistol on target very well. They would be candidates for a shotgun or carbine.

Practice with the weapons with them. Also discuss scenarios in their house. What will you do if.....back door, window, front door, etc. Integrate things like having cell phone always handy and calling police and include what to do when police show up. Retreat options, safe rooms, etc, etc, etc.

Be prepared for the TV thinking. A relative got his wife a pistol and she insists on doing the 'spray and pray' cause that is what is 'taught' on TV. A year later and she still can't keep all the shots on a paper plate at 5 yds.

[adam_mac84]

How old are they and what is their "mental state"?

It takes a certain mindset to accept the idea that you are going to kill someone. Some people can't do it and they are the ones who are sometimes killed with their own gun because they just can't pull the trigger on some young kid. The lady mentioned above who wanted an empty shotgun to intimidate is a good example. I'd also pull the firing pins so it could not be used against her.

If they can do this, and have the hand/arm strength and steadiness to do this, then go ahead. Some older folks develop 'shaky' hands and cannot hold a pistol on target very well. They would be candidates for a shotgun or carbine.

Practice with the weapons with them. Also discuss scenarios in their house. What will you do if.....back door, window, front door, etc. Integrate things like having cell phone always handy and calling police and include what to do when police show up. Retreat options, safe rooms, etc, etc, etc.

Be prepared for the TV thinking. A relative got his wife a pistol and she insists on doing the 'spray and pray' cause that is what is 'taught' on TV. A year later and she still can't keep all the shots on a paper plate at 5 yds. . Early 60s. They have a walk-in closet that is large enough for 2-3 adult sized people to get inside of it. We have discussed a solid door with deadbolt on it as a safe room. She watches my sisters kids occasionally so all could fit inside if needed. Door opens away. they also have a ground level basement window with easy egress, that is also an option if they could get downstairs and out. Behind them is 100 acres of woods/field. Could get hidden pretty quick if fleeing. The mindset is going to be interesting. It was enlightening how my old man was so anti-gun until he was in a helpless situation 1000 miles away with a potential intruder to my mother who was home alone. I could hear it in his voice when he called that day. He asked me go to over and check the area for any bad-guy 'helpers'. We do have some work to do on security mindset. This is the type of town where everything stays unlocked... all the time. I even had to transition out of that mindset... only I did it about 10 years ago.

[PerpetualStudent]

Some older folks develop 'shaky' hands and cannot hold a pistol on target very well. They would be candidates for a shotgun or carbine.

Yeah I'd give a Pistol Caliber Carbine a good long look. I think experienced shooters tend to forget how steep the learning curve on handguns is, and how much work it takes to be consistently good. The other main downside to a revolver on Double Action is how hefty the pull gets. I've seen people who can keep it in 2 inches on single action miss entirely torso sized targets at the same range when switching to quick double action.

[GhostHawk]

I have 2 pistol caliber carbines, mine are both Hipoint, a 9mm and a .40sw.

Both would work very well for home defense close quarters.

My wife has no trouble cutting the center out of a 2" bullseye at 20 feet with either.
And in fact always has a big wide grin on her face after shooting either of them.
They are just plain fun.

I also agree with putting a Red Dot sight on them. Battery life on the newer models seems to be much better. I suspect you could leave on low intensity and just swap the battery out once a year. One less thing to worry about in a tense situation.

[charlie b]

Given that situation I'd definitely go to carbine or shotgun.

If your mom is like my wife she will hate a shotgun. Before we moved I was shopping for a pistol carbine for the house. Was leaning toward an M1 for a while just cause I like them :) Also had an AK for a while that would also work but wife hated it (she wants her guns to look nice :) ). I'd definitely look for a semi auto since levers and pumps have problems when short stroked.

Laser would be my choice for aiming, especially for night. Red dots are good on carbines too.

[Lefty Red]

What ever revolver you get, just stick to the 110gr FXT bullets. They expand a tad more and are not really that much "harder" to shoot than the 90gr ones.

The Lite 90grs basically turns your 38 into a 380. But I understand the draw in a light weight snub, but there is no benefit from actual people shooting them.

Either the 110gr or the 110gr +p will work. Would choose the +p in a 2" barrel and the standard velocity in a longer barrel.

Might get lynched, but a Taurus or Charter Arms is not a bad gun. Not something I would shoot daily or hinders of rounds. But for someone just to have, and not have a lot of money into, they work. I just picked up a Charter Arms Undercover 38 for $175 used (to be read shot ten round through) it's tight and works as a pocket pistol for me. Buddy just got a Taurus 605, 5 shot 357 that is standard weight. Heavy enough to soak of the minimal recoil from wadcutter loads so his gun shy step daughters shoot it. It was $200 lightly used.

Would I rather have a SW or Ruger? Yes but the price is right and the other work too. And for something they probably won't be shot after they get it, just as good and cheaper.

Also, I would load up with wad cutters if recoil is a problem. My light weight Undercover was said used but same step daughter and they liked it a lot too, with the wad cutters in it.

Lefty


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[Lefty Red]

First boxes are the Hornady 110gr FXT loads that I use in the winter time. I like the +p version, seems well liked by Jello Junkies over the standard velocity load. I really can't tell a difference in the recoil, but can with the noise. I think that scares a shooter more than the recoil. They are like $24 for 25 rounds. The ballistic tipped FXT bullet keeps hollow point from being clogged, is their claim to popularity. They don't seem to open up allot compared to higher weight bullets, but they are suppose to keep their velocity high enough out of short barrels to open up at around .50". Works for me!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170429/7c84f00261a0e1583234314d016ee78b.jpg

My other go to load is the cheap Remington UMC 125gr SJHP +p offering, usually found at every Wal Mart around. The Semi Jacketed bullet expands well since it acts like a soft lead bullet. Jello Junkies claim it gets clogged up and doesn't expand but flattens. Well, if it is bigger in the Bad Guy compared to when it started, then it has expanded! I use this for summer carry so the Jello Junkies don't scream about four layers of denim. If used in a 3" or more revolver, then it's would be my EDC load for a 38. I'm searching for the 158gr 357 Mag load with the same type of bullet for the K6s. The Jello Junkies say it "flattens" out to around .65"! From a 2" barrel even! I think I got the 38 load for around $35 for 100.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170429/ba6a23eb1ead65b0ff8e26d57c25facf.jpg

And my around back up, reloaded DEWCs with a max charge of your favorite powder behind it. Surprising light recoil and very accurate at self defense ranges,
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170429/3a2cb51cf2650d6b95a6d0b6c0b2aaea.jpg

Lefty

[Lefty Red]

Adam,

No problem ... just a little pet peeve of mine ... since your new at this, it is good to learn the right way ... a striker fired gun, would be hammerless ... some revolvers are "bobbed" or "spurless" which is just cutting the spur off from a regular hammer ... an "enclosed" or "shrouded" hammer is tucked inside the frame ...

This is a hammer with a "spur"

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20GP100%20Match%20Champion/20170427_082204-1_zpsdih2vzqc.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnTVT/media/Guns/Ruger%20GP100%20Match%20Champion/20170427_082204-1_zpsdih2vzqc.jpg.html)

The top gun has an "enclosed" hammer, the rest all have "spur's" and are double action (DA) which means by pulling the trigger, your pulling back the hammer with your trigger finger, until it is back far enough to release the sear, than the hammer falls ... boom, but can also be shot single action (SA) where you normally use your thumb to pull back the hammer, then you squeeze the trigger, and ... boom ... the bottom four are all DA/SA revolvers from top to bottom ... all made by Ruger ...

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/2017-04-26%2017.49.57_zps67xxxsao.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnTVT/media/Guns/2017-04-26%2017.49.57_zps67xxxsao.jpg.html)

LCR 1 7/8" barrel
SP101 3 1/16" barrel
SP101 4.2" barrel
Security Six 4" barrel
GP100 MC 4.2" barrel

The bottom three would make great "house" guns ...

One is each please! :)


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[jetinteriorguy]

Get them a nice full size revolver such as a S&W model 15 or comparable Ruger and shoot 148gr wadcutter target loads. Like shooting a .22 recoil wise but a very respectable SD round. Also very easy to be accurate enough even for people to be proficient with who don't do a lot of shooting. When I say accurate enough I mean at typical SD distances.

[marlin39a]

Take a look at S&W 10. I've got a 3" heavy barrel that just fits the bill.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I hate the suggestion of a revolver for someone with low hand strength or arthritis. If they can't pull the slide back on a semiautomatic, then how will they manage to make hits with the double action trigger? If you're going to tune the whole thing to reliably work with a power pull, maybe, but that's a lot of work.

Something like a hipoint carbine or Sub 2000 is a better choice. Side charging is pretty easy, the trigger isn't fantastic but it's manageable, and with a $65 red dot it's super easy to shoot. Another $40 will put a decent flashlight on it so they can see what they're aiming at in the dark.

[Bigslug]

I hate the suggestion of a revolver for someone with low hand strength or arthritis. If they can't pull the slide back on a semiautomatic, then how will they manage to make hits with the double action trigger? If you're going to tune the whole thing to reliably work with a power pull, maybe, but that's a lot of work.

Something like a hipoint carbine or Sub 2000 is a better choice. Side charging is pretty easy, the trigger isn't fantastic but it's manageable, and with a $65 red dot it's super easy to shoot. Another $40 will put a decent flashlight on it so they can see what they're aiming at in the dark.

THIS: I'd set them up with a good shorty semi-auto 20 gauge and give them a few hours tutorial on loading, unloading, and running. It does not sound like they're likely to put in much effort with whatever they end up with, so make sure that's something that they can operate with a minimum of programming and stand a good chance of hitting what they're aiming at. Much as I like a good wheelie, handguns of any kind take a fair commitment to be effective with. Doesn't sound like the commitment is there.

[Petrol & Powder]

adam mac84, you've received a lot of good input. You said they didn't want a long gun but I think you would do them a favor if you could bring them around to that idea. If they're amenable to a shotgun - I'd go with Bigslug's suggestion. A handgun is never my first choice for a home defense weapon. A gun used for home defense doesn't need to be concealed and it doesn't need to be carried for long periods of time. A shotgun is a more effective firearm and a long gun provides a better potential to hit your target. Depending on the design, I might go with a pump gun over a semi-auto because I don't like the idea of storage with a loaded chamber and some semi-autos have a more complex manual of arms for that first round if the chamber is empty.

If it has to be a revolver and not a shotgun, then I'd go with some 4" barreled 38 Special revolver with a hammer. An old model 10 with a tapered barrel wouldn't be too heavy, is easy to learn/use and is about as simple as it gets. I'm not sure what would be "too much" recoil but a full wadcutter would be my starting point for practice and may even end up being the final choice as well. After that I would probably go with the Speer Gold Dot 135gr, Short barrel load which has a good track record in 4" barrels as well as snubnose guns. The 135gr bullet is easy on the shooter and even more so out of a 4" gun.
I'm with Lefty Red, a S&W or Ruger would be great but a Taurus would fill the need just as well. An old Taurus model 82 would be inexpensive and reliable.

The big issue is their mindset. Are they prepared to use deadly force if needed? This question needs to be settled before they go any farther.

[Petrol & Powder]

If it's going to be a new revolver, my vote would be for a 4.2" SP101. I think that would be the best compromise between barrel length, overall weight and grip size.
For a used revolver, I would look for a 3"-4" K-frame like a S&W model 10, 15 or 64 and find the BEST set of grips that your mother is comfortable with.

[jmort]

I would look at a .38 Special Ruger LCRx with a hammer.
I let my daughter pick out a gun and after much searching, that is what she wanted.
It has a great trigger.
Now the ammunition we ended up with was a 148 grain wadcutter after trying a few different options
She can hit the mark with the wadcutters. Any more juice was a no go.
More practice and she may step it up, but for now, that is the deal.

[Lefty Red]

I would look at a .38 Special Ruger LCRx with a hammer.
I let my daughter pick out a gun and after much searching, that is what she wanted.
It has a great trigger.
Now the ammunition we ended up with was a 148 grain wadcutter after trying a few different options
She can hit the mark with the wadcutters. Any more juice was a no go.
More practice and she may step it up, but for now, that is the deal.

Can't remember what gun rag guru stated it, but this quote always stuck with me, "a wadcutter through the eye is better than a Black Talon in the foot!" As you can tell, it was awhile back. :)


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[rondog]

Pretty hard to beat a good ol' basic well-used S&W Model 10 .38 Special police trade-in. NO frills and NO tricks to operate, and recoil isn't a killer. Those have been ventilating bad guys for generations.

[Walkingwolf]

Can't remember what gun rag guru stated it, but this quote always stuck with me, "a wadcutter through the eye is better than a Black Talon in the foot!" As you can tell, it was awhile back. :)


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I carry wadcutters as my primary load, though mine are a tad warm compared to factory.

[wbrco]

Mom (75 with bad rheumatoid arthritis) can shoot a Taurus M85 DAO that I did some polishing and installed Wolff springs. But definitely light loads. She uses both hands. Dad and I taught her to aim for the middle and squeeze hard.

You'd be surprised what Grandma's can do when they've got a little adrenaline helping them out.

Now if I could get dad to stop messing with laser sights on his lcps and do the same thing, just aim for the middle and squeeze...

[35remington]

The concern for an elderly person not being able to pull a DA revolver trigger is, in my experience, quite unfounded. My nearly 90 year old dad is much more frail than he used to be, yet he has no difficulty whatsoever pulling the rather stiff DA trigger of my stock 638.

A full size or K frame 38 is easy for him to shoot DA and is in fact more easily accomplished than the j frame. I recommend a medium frame 38 revolver with no reservations about the ability of either of my parents in shooting it.

While I acknowledge the desirability of a long gun in a barricaded situation, in any other scenario the user is subject to a disarming attempt. Answering the door with one is impossible while the revolver can be kept discreetly nearby yet ready to employ. In a home invasion scenario the handgun has more possibilities for immediate employment as well and is easier to keep nearby as opposed to lugging a long arm around with you.

At times a gun in a closet or elsewhere in the house is the same as having no gun at all.

[fecmech]

I'm with Bigslug on the 20 ga auto. I would never recommend a pump for inexperienced shooters or shooters that don't practice with them. As far as handguns get something that they will practice with, decent K frame Smiths come to mind in .22 or .38 spec. Practice and familiarity are the big thing IMO. I've taken friends to shoot with handguns and put some pressure on them with turning targets that only face them for 2 seconds. It's amazing how often they miss a man sized target at 10-15 feet!

[Walkingwolf]

I'm with Bigslug on the 20 ga auto. I would never recommend a pump for inexperienced shooters or shooters that don't practice with them. As far as handguns get something that they will practice with, decent K frame Smiths come to mind in .22 or .38 spec. Practice and familiarity are the big thing IMO. I've taken friends to shoot with handguns and put some pressure on them with turning targets that only face them for 2 seconds. It's amazing how often they miss a man sized target at 10-15 feet!

The auto will soak up some of the recoil, my dad always kept a 16ga double loaded in the house. A very simple gun to operate, but only two shots, which is better than none. I have not heard about too many people getting their long gun taken away in home invasion. In fact it seems to turn badly for the criminals. Seems I remember a woman defending her home with Hi Point carbine, and just recently a son defending his home with an AR.

There is also the option of getting a dog, and helping with the protection training. Start with a puppy, work on their manners first, then using a sleeve teach them the "attack", or "get them" command.

[Blackwater]

A lot of opinions have been rendered, and most would beat not having anything at all. If it were me, I'd get them one of the newer SxS 20 ga. doubles with 20" barrels and exposed "rabbit ear" hammers, and get them a couple of boxes (25 rd. boxes) of buckshot, and maybe a box of #4 shot. I think they double is much easier and surer and faster to load or reload than any magazine fed repeater would be for them. If they're not conditioned to shooting, the shotgun would be the ONLY thing I'd really consider. .22's aren't the most reliable things, especially if they sit around, uncleaned and collect dust, as most non-shooters will let them do. Then, if they have arthritic hands (something I'm becoming familiar with myself), it'll be a real chore to clear it and get back to shooting. And that would be a VERY bad time for such to happen.

A double is the simplest gun in the world to operate. You just turn the lever aside, and it breaks open. Drop 2 shells in and close it. Then push the safety forward or cock the hammers in the case of a "rabbit eared" gun, and you're in business. Those hammers on a hammer gun can be cocked using the whole finger and palm, and in a breakin situation, you do NOT want to have problems making the gun ready. Store it loaded, if no small children are around, and all you do is pick it up, cock it, point and pull the trigger. I don't think anything else would be as fast in action or as sure. And most ANY shotgun will be more effective in stopping an aggressor than most ANY handgun. Rifles might penetrate more than would be good or safe. So .... I'd get them the SxS double. A used Stevens 311 is a solid and reliable gun, or I can't remember the make just now, but one of the European companies is importing a "sawed off" (made that way actually) 20" hammer gun. Those things are STILL as simple and reliable as a gun can be. The old PH's in Africa didn't use double rifles for no reason! And the instant selection of a 2nd shot could be critical in a bad situation. I doubt many people would miss twice in a row, though I know it does happen occasionally. A good 'smith should be able to make the cocking and trigger actions easy enough for weak hands, and yet, still be strong enough for reliable function and firing. The 20 ga. won't kick nearly as bad, and especially for your Mom, would probably be more effective. People don't shoot guns they're scared of very well, nor guns that kick too much.

And a 20 ga. is more deadly at closer ranges than a .50 S&W magnum! It'll do anything that needs to be done at self defense ranges, and do it VERY well. If you don't believe it, go shoot a 20 ga. at a hunk of some kind of meat - anything will do. If that doesn't impress you, and convince you of the superiority of the shotgun at close ranges, I don't know what could. Police carry shotguns for a reason. Just MHO, of course, and the main #1 rule of any self defense situation is to "have a gun." There are no wrong answers, but some are clearly better ideas than some others.

Her hands may be petite, and your Dad's larger, and this tends to indicate 2 different guns would be best, if handguns are used. Grip size and fit makes a lot more difference than many really want to think it does. FWIW?

[rfd]

revolvers make for about the best in-house super handy firearm. they always work if the ammo is center fire.

my choice for the reasonably qualified elderly is a 3" SP101 .357mag but loaded with standard .38spl rounds.

[CIC]

Sounds like you have lots of good advice. My recommendations would be the SP101 with 38s or a SW 642/442. I think the trigger on the SW makes it my preferred choice.

[Petrol & Powder]

The S&W 442/642 is a great concealed carry gun but it would be a poor choice for primary home defense weapon. There's no need for the super small grips and short barrel in a home defense situation where the gun doesn't need to be concealed. The DAO, internal hammer is outstanding for concealed carry but wouldn't be ideal for an elderly person.

Blackwater makes a very convincing argument for a 20 ga, side by side.

[Bigslug]

. . .Depending on the design, I might go with a pump gun over a semi-auto because I don't like the idea of storage with a loaded chamber and some semi-autos have a more complex manual of arms for that first round if the chamber is empty. . .

I would probably NOT recommend a Benelli due to the soewhat more complex trigger/feed system, but aside from that, I'd probably suggest pulling the trigger on a VERIFIED! empty chamber, leaving the safety off, and loading the magazine to capacity. From there, it's a simple matter of running the charging handle once and going to work.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

........mm

[johniv]

Lots of good advice here and all helpful. Something to think about, I do NOT like a hammer on a defense revolver. Friend of mine some years ago(not a gun gal) thought she heard a noise at zero dark thirty, got her borrowed revolver out and cocked it. Noise went away, and she was left holding a cocked K frame with a very light trigger pull. She struggled with it and at last got it uncocked. This is not a situation you want your loved ones to face. Also I have taught NRA shooting classes, and I have met several folks (men and women) who could not handle the DA pull. As far as caliber goes , anything that is shootable for the user is good. In my opinion, even the lowly .22 rf. (I know , most trainers and the NRA say "no .22's"), but, no one wants to get shot, and once the shooting starts, most ner do wells remember a pressing need to be elsewhere.
FWIW
John

[Petrol & Powder]

I would probably NOT recommend a Benelli due to the soewhat more complex trigger/feed system, but aside from that, I'd probably suggest pulling the trigger on a VERIFIED! empty chamber, leaving the safety off, and loading the magazine to capacity. From there, it's a simple matter of running the charging handle once and going to work.

/\ Agreed, and the same empty chamber and un-locked action method works for a pump action. The user simply picks up the gun, cycles the action to load the first shell in the chamber and you're ready to shoot. No fumbling for the action release or need to disengage a safety. No fine motor skills needed under stress.

[CIC]

The S&W 442/642 is a great concealed carry gun but it would be a poor choice for primary home defense weapon. There's no need for the super small grips and short barrel in a home defense situation where the gun doesn't need to be concealed. The DAO, internal hammer is outstanding for concealed carry but wouldn't be ideal for an elderly person.

Blackwater makes a very convincing argument for a 20 ga, side by side.

Since none of us know the parents except the OP it is hard to say exactly what is best for them. I must ask, what does DOA and age have to do with each other?

[johniv]

Since none of us know the parents except the OP it is hard to say exactly what is best for them. I must ask, what does DOA and age have to do with each other?
See my post above . Some older folks have arthritic hands and cannot use the DAO. The S&W 442 and 642 are good carry guns but I think too light for someone with grip issues. A larger gun that can be adjusted to a lighter pull (and more to hold onto) is a better choice. As you say we don't know the folks so it will be up to the OP to work out the problems. All we can do is give opinions and relate our experiences so some unthought of problem can be avoided.

[sawinredneck]

My suggestion is to take them to a range and either rent some various guns, or supply them with as many choices as you can manage.
My 12yo son has a Rossi Trifecta with the 20ga, I don't even like shooting it, too light and kicks!
I loved the idea of the Judge, nearly bought one but got to shoot one first, I HATED it! Didn't balance, didn't aim, just didn't feel right to me.
I can go on and on but my point is if they don't like it, or are scared of it to start with, it's not going to be much use in a high stress event! They need to be comfortable with this choice first and foremost. I get they aren't gun people and it may seem a real pain to them to start with, but once they shoot a couple different guns I think they'll understand better.

[charlie b]

A pistol is not a good choice unless the folks are willing to practice with it until they are competent enough to use it. Not just 50 or 100 rds but a bunch more. Good center of mass hits. Yes, many elderly people can handle a pistol. But, if they have not used one before then the muscles may not be up for it. I've seen some of these folks on the CCW qualifying range. Can't keep all the shots on a full profile target at 5 yds cause they cannot hold the pistol steady and pull the trigger. OTOH some people will pick up the pistol and get it right off the bat, especially women with good hand and arm strength.

Please, please they need to practice until they can hit the target, easily. Not just one round out of 6 but all 6, no matter what weapon they end up with. Before you say, 'of course', be aware that some people will consider it a waste of time. They have a belief that just pointing the gun and pulling the trigger kills everyone in front of them. If you push them it may cause problems. Be prepared for that.

[Walkingwolf]

Good point charlie, if the person cannot keep the muzzle controlled in non stress, they will have problems under stress. This is not to say that people have not defended themselves with a gun with no training. But these were usually healthy people, start adding in aching joints that may not function normal then 6 shots will be worthless if they all miss. OTH the SXS shotgun as suggested it is pretty hard to miss, just point, and pull the trigger. Which is considerably easier than a DA trigger pull. Two hits versus six misses, I would bet on the two.

[JHeath]

The Kimber K6 concealed-hammer snubnose revolver is getting good reviews for taming recoil through ergonomic design, and for having a good trigger. Apparently Kimber managed to lower the bore axis relative to the grip, compared to traditional snubnose revolvers. If the price point is acceptable you might look at it.

[Petrol & Powder]

Since none of us know the parents except the OP it is hard to say exactly what is best for them. I must ask, what does DOA and age have to do with each other?
Hand strength / arthritis

[35remington]

Hand strength is absolutely not an issue given the age of the OP's parents, so best to let that one go. People in their early 60's have considerable hand strength left, and my 85 yo mother can run a DAO Model 10 easily.

Try not to make them put one foot in the grave until they are actually ready to do so.

[17nut]

Some years back i spoke to a fellow from SA.
His preferred sidearm was/is a 22MAG revolver and he had at the time 3 (confirmed) scalps on his belt.
He said recoil was near nill and way better penetration than a 22LR and still from a 8 shot DA gun.
Like a PC mouse a truly point and click interface.

[Petrol & Powder]

Hand strength is absolutely not an issue given the age of the OP's parents, so best to let that one go. People in their early 60's have considerable hand strength left, and my 85 yo mother can run a DAO Model 10 easily.

Try not to make them put one foot in the grave until they are actually ready to do so.

I'm just going off the first post on this thread, "..............My rationale for revolver was less moving parts. Mom is not an invalid, but does not have strong hands (arthritis). I am concerned about her manipulating slides/failures etc if necessary, which is where the revolver came into my mind. ........."

[Walkingwolf]

Consider a gun for each, if there is a failure then there is still one gun up, and running. Many people carry two guns, myself included, and there is always two at reach in the house. Plus IMO I think people worry too much about failures. I have 10 semi auto handguns of various manufacture, not one of them has had a failure. And two of those are Saturday night specials. Properly cleaned, and lubed guns just tend to run, even the cheap ones.

I still go back to one shot from on target is better than six missed. The question for me is not whether they can pull the DA trigger but whether they can do it, and keep the muzzle pointed where it should be. Take them to a gun shop, have them manipulate the trigger on the gun you think they might want with a quarter on top of the barrel, or the frame above the cylinder. If that quarter falls that is not the gun for them.

Heck buy three Hi Points, they run when maintained, and growing reputation. I doubt all three would fail when needed, my wife has one for plinking. That gun just runs, and runs, and runs, extremely low recoil, just as accurate as a Glock.

Might also consider this as a backup for any handgun, or a primary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wbCus9T6Cg

The pistol grip model came in right at 400 dollars total to my gun shop on Gallery of Guns.

http://www.galleryofguns.com//ProdImageSm/50455.jpg

[35remington]

If they cannot manage a DA pull then quite frankly doing a malfunction drill or racking the slide with an autoloader ain't gonna happen either. Before putting the kibosh on a medium frame DA revolver make sure you recognize that women have even more difficulty racking a slide than trigger cocking a revolver.

Watching women struggle with autoloaders is routine. Trigger cocking a Model 10? Easy by comparison.....said by a guy that has watched many women try both.

Non impaired 50 year old women struggle to rack my 16 lb sprung 1911, which to me is ridiculously easy. Forget any smaller autoloader as the heavy springs utterly defeat them. My Model 10 is no problem for any woman I have given one to.

The best way to avoid having to perform a malfunction drill is to give them a gun that avoids the whole procedure, which is the revolver.

[texasnative46]

adam mac84,

I used to be an instructor at a police "rookie" academy (and an Army Rangemaster for >20 years) & believe that the BEST choice for NEW SHOOTERS is a "Plain Jane" S&W, Colt's or Ruger .38SPL revolver with 4" barrel, like a Model 10, Official Police or the Service Six.
(Imo, you should start your parents off with mid-range 148 grain wadcutters & progress to JHP only when they shoot wadcutters WELL.)

Even our "brand new cadets", who had never even touched a handgun, easily qualified with a .38SPL revolver.
(About HALF qualified with their revolver after one day of instruction/firing, another QUARTER by the end of Day 2 & EVERYONE by Friday PM on Range Week.)

A Personal Note: My late mother carried my old "army surplus" Colt's Commando .38 on the farm well into her late 80s & remained fully competent with it, too.

just my OPINION, tex

[Sur-shot]

I have always preferred one gun for instructing novice shooters that are female or youngsters, the Ruger Bearcat. It fits their hand, is light in weight and is a single action. I have the student shoot about a box of ammo to get familiar with the gun, while I stand behind them a bit off to the side. Once I see they are going along well, I put a box of bullets on the bench and have them shoot, just for fun, I walk away a short distance so they learn to enjoy shooting. Next I get out a Single Six and let them get used to that larger gun. Now Ruger's 32 Mag is built on a Single Six frame. In a 5.5 inch barrel version would make a dandy handgun for home defense. Of course the 60gr 22 SSS by Aguila is accurate enough at 10 -30 feet, inside the house distances, so the Bearcat could work. I have a small in statute female doctor that I taught with a Bearcat and that is what she carries in her purse, loaded with the 60s.
Ed

[Walkingwolf]

If they cannot manage a DA pull then quite frankly doing a malfunction drill or racking the slide with an autoloader ain't gonna happen either. Before putting the kibosh on a medium frame DA revolver make sure you recognize that women have even more difficulty racking a slide than trigger cocking a revolver.

Watching women struggle with autoloaders is routine. Trigger cocking a Model 10? Easy by comparison.....said by a guy that has watched many women try both.

Non impaired 50 year old women struggle to rack my 16 lb sprung 1911, which to me is ridiculously easy. Forget any smaller autoloader as the heavy springs utterly defeat them. My Model 10 is no problem for any woman I have given one to.

The best way to avoid having to perform a malfunction drill is to give them a gun that avoids the whole procedure, which is the revolver.

The difference is the DA revolver the trigger has to be pulled in a long heavy for handicap pull. Chances of a malfunction are even less than the chances of needed a gun in the first place. Plus some guns have easier to rack slides, especially hammer fired, and a gun does not have to stay on target while being racked. Most common brands have slide aids also, or a gunsmith can make one. The push/pull racking system uses the strength of both hands, the DA revolver uses one finger.

If they can shoot a revolver, and that is what they want that is fine, but I have seen police officers that could not keep a Glock muzzle steady let alone a revolver.

Just like a man should not decide what a woman carries, a offspring should not decide what the parents carry. Take them to a gun shop, and let them decide without pushing them in one direction.

[35remington]

Point is, do not automatically rule out the revolver due to "difficult" pulls while ignoring the manipulation needed to run an automatic. If my 89 year old father than just had a stroke can manage DA trigger pulls, it may not be covering all the bases if you eliminate the revolver as a choice before letting them attempt it.

Given that these are not "gun" people, the less they have to remember to do, the better. The less "gunny" you are, the more the revolver makes sense.

[Walkingwolf]

Nobody is eliminating anything, the choice should be the parents choice. If it is a bad, or good choice it is on them.

And I have four times the revolvers that I do semi automatics. I carry revolvers, and I am a revolver fan, what is good for me is not necessarily good for others.

[ole 5 hole group]

A home defense firearm, as well as a concealed carry firearm is 99.999% "feel good", as 99.999% of the people owning them will never need to use their firearm for that intended purpose. Get a handgun your parents think is good for them - they will feel safer and that's what it's all about.

As far as marksmanship - they will do just fine, if that time ever comes - "trained" LEO's and military personnel have been known to miss BG's at less than 15 feet repeatedly.;)

My vote would be along the lines of a S&W model 60 - 5-shot with wadcutters.

[35remington]

Some here would eliminate the revolver from consideration as taking too much "strength" to operate. My point was that from my experience watching strength challenged individuals operate firearms, the revolver has the advantage in manipulation. There is less chance of malfunction as well, and less chance to disremember if it carries a shell in the chamber or not.

Agree on whatever is obtained, some regular schedule of practice and refamiliarization is essential. Forgetting this point does nobody any good save for the criminal.

[sawinredneck]

I'll say it again, until THEY shoot some guns and determine what THEY like, all this speculation and arm chair quarterbacking is doing nothing but muddy the waters for the OP.
My dad likes his Ruger Super Redhawk 9 1/2" barrel 44mag for home defense, does that make it the best for home defense?
A neighbor likes a Benneli 12ga for home defense, does that make it the best for home defense?
My cop buddy likes his Glock .40, ad nauseum.......
Its personal to everyone, and everyone has reasons for making their choices. We can speculate and assume all day, but until THEY find something THEY like and works for THEM, it's all conjecture.
Sorry if I'm coming off rude or presumptuous, but I've worked with several people choosing firearms and every time it always surprises me the choices they make! My wife for instance, she picked up a Mossberg 500, 20ga, 20" barrel with pistol grips? Took to it like a duck to water, in her younger days she shot skeet with the damn thing? But that's her baby!
You just never know what will or won't work until you present some options to them.

[Walkingwolf]

It needs to be their choice, be supportive, but let them make the choice.

[P Flados]

I have worked with two individuals with poor hand strength. My wife and her friend both have real struggles.

We ended up with a Ruger LCRx 38 for my wife. The goal was something she could shoot at the range when she feels like going with me. The effort to cock for SA is about as good as it gets, DA is not bad at all and she loves the light weight. The 3" barrel and good sights help her to shoot decent groups which really helps her fun factor and confidence. For range shooting, I knew in advance that I would be loading "extra low recoil" ammo (needed with a gun so light weight). Ended up with 2.5 gr Titegroup under a BLL coated Lee 110 grn RN for about 600 fps. I also get similar results with 2.8 gr of Promo (red dot equivalent). The light boolit in turn drops the point of impact a lot compared to std. ammo. The LCRx adjustable sights were a real blessing dealing with the POI shift.

Her friend ended up with a Ruger 380. She can shoot it ok, but she really struggles to load magazines or to operate the slide. The only way the gun provides her with a somewhat reliable self defense option is with 100% proven ammo (not sure this has really been done), gun on safe, full mag, and a round in the chamber. The other thing is that I have made a number of futile attempts at getting her back to the range for more practice. Overall, this is just not something I like the sound of.

[35remington]

Nevertheless, the OP asked for ideas. He got 'em. This may help in expanding the possible choices.

Nobody ever suggested not bothering to let them try stuff out to see what suits them. Putting words in all caps conveys a little more agitation than is seemly. No need to pound the podium.

[sawinredneck]

Nevertheless, the OP asked for ideas. He got 'em. This may help in expanding the possible choices.

Nobody ever suggested not bothering to let them try stuff out to see what suits them. Putting words in all caps conveys a little more agitation than is seemly. No need to pound the podium.
Sorry, wasn't trying to pound the podium, just meant to express it had evolved into a pissing match over arthritic hands that none of us have to personally deal with, but the users of said gun do.

[725]

I'll toss my two cents in the mix. A revolver is the only way to go. Semi's have a list of things that will stop them when you need it the most. .38 is a great choice, but when asked this same question by a criminal judge here in Baltimore, my long considered advice was to get a .44 Spec. As with the light loaded .38, a light loaded .44 Spec. is manageable and has that little something extra to offer. Best of luck. This is a serious endeavor. Whatever you get, give them lots of good, mature training, and see to it that they shoot on a regular basis.

[texasnative46]

sawinredneck,

As a lot of folks here know, my beloved lady is 70YY, paralyzed from mid-chest down & has about 40% use of her arms/hands. - We have 24/365 nursing care for her at home.

Nonetheless, she still shoots her Colt's Police Positive quite well out to 25M. = If she can shoot the PP well & she CAN, I suspect that most anyone can learn to use a .38SPL revolver.

yours, tex

[sawinredneck]

sawinredneck,

As a lot of folks here know, my beloved lady is 70YY, paralyzed from mid-chest down & has about 40% use of her arms/hands. - We have 24/365 nursing care for her at home.

Nonetheless, she still shoots her Colt's Police Positive quite well out to 25M. = If she can shoot the PP well & she CAN, I suspect that most anyone can learn to use a .38SPL revolver.

yours, tex
Again, I'm sorry, I meant no disrespect to the ideas. The thread had derailed into a pissing match about arthritis and was going no where!
But I still stand by my statement that they need to try different things to see what they like.

[texasnative46]

sawinredneck,

AGREED 100%.

Fwiw, given that IF we "have a problem" at our place & that the nearest BCSO is about 15-30 minutes away (depending on time of day/night & traffic), we are prepared to "secure the home/property" until LE/FD/EMS/etc. personnel arrive.

Briefly, the "family security plan" is:
1. A fire/storm evacuation plan to get everyone out in case of fire and/or storm damage to the house & we practice doing it monthly,
2. Our nursing staff is checked out on our security/emergency plan, are trained with double-barrel shotguns & are ready to use them if necessary to hold the home from behind our locked doors.
(The house has solid-core doors, "upgraded" locks & window guards, a fire/burglar alarm & good quality fire extinguishers.)
3. We have sufficient food/water onsite and an emergency generator (with fuel) to keep the house "going" for 2 weeks, in the event of a major tornado or other natural/manmade emergency.
and
4. A VERY protective 80+ pound/trained Boxer/Pitbull X, who is always within "touching distance of" my lady.
(I truly PITY anyone who is foolish enough to "lay hands on" my lady, as they will be "taken down" & "well-chewed".)

In sum, "the old folks" will be FINE until help arrives, should an emergency happen.

yours, tex

[Walkingwolf]

Another revolver option would be a tuned SA Vaquero with a fast draw hammer. I have two fast draw Navies with cartridge conversions with a normal Navy hammer. Even with the normal hammer the cocking is effortless using the hand in a fanning motion. The fast draw hammer would make it even easier. But they would give up fast reloads.

Unlike most people I do not hold my finger on the trigger while fanning. I cock with a fanning motion, then pull the trigger as it had been thumb cocked. It is still hard on the cylinder timing on a revolver that has not been tuned because of the speed the cylinder rotates. But it makes for an easy SA trigger pull, plus the reliability of a revolver. It would take a learning curve, and tuned Vaquero are not inexpensive.

Just to give an idea here is an image of a fast draw revolver.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/UserImages/5263/909665907/wm_9140047.jpg

[charlie b]

i still say that a novice ia better off with a long gun

not a revolver

not a semi auto

either a shotgun or carbine

[texasnative46]

charlie b,

IF the new shooter can HANDLE a 12 or 20 gauge, I always suggest a double barrel, as they are EASY to learn to use/maintain, so versatile in many self-defense/hunting/sport-shooting roles AND they are INTIMIDATING from the muzzle end.

just my OPINION, satx

[Wayne Smith]

Adam, something no one else has mentioned. You mentioned 100 acres of woods for the back yard. Set them up a range, make sure they have something you load for, and whatever they choose, provide lots of practice ammo. Get them out in their own back yard shooting cheaply and they are likely to become gun folks! Give the old folks something fun to do that isn't expensive or inconvenient and they will do it.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

....t?

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

You are going to have to let them try quite a few different kinds of handguns, and it is going to take alot of time.

First, make sure both are willing to make the necessary choices for self defensive shooting situations.
Next, start with something in a 22LR to get both familiarized with recoil and report from a gun.
Then, start to patiently work with the operations of different types of handguns....and keep on trying different kinds. And do NONE of this step on a hot range, no live ammo/no accidental discharge. This will take more time than you can imagine.

If, and when, they find something that they can work confidently, and is COMFORTABLE for both to hold.....you have hit the jackpot.

And if nothing pops up that fits any criteria for a handgun, do not even hesitate to suggest a shotgun, but the absolutely simplest version they find easy/comfortable dealing with.....should be either break action or pump.

After all this work, one thing.....do not let your (or ours) ego dictate what "should" work for them; they are extremely inexperienced shooters, acting from a very recent fear situation, and may not keep putting in the time/practice to stay proficient with their tool.

A good couple of childrens' sized aluminum bats, strategically placed around the house, is not a poor option either. These are very easy to remember how to take off "safe", and adrenaline takes care of the rest. Besides, they are cheap, and work every time tried.

The bat idea comes from having my soon to be daughter in law needing something for her apartment, and not being willing, or able, to put in firearms training time. Colors can be important, she likes the pink ones.....:wink:

But for every lady i have ever helped with handguns, and there are more than I can remember, finding the best fit between her hand and the gun---read comfort---makes more difference than we can understand with our years of shooting and (normally) stronger hand/arm strength.