Olde Eynsford verses Swiss

[Lead pot]

Last year I got a case of 1.5 Swiss to give it a try. I worked up several ladder loads to find the best load for two PP bullets I use the most in the .45-90. One is a 515 gr Prolate and the other a 535 gr Elliptical from BA. Both bullets are good performers at all ranges.
Last year at the Mt 1000 I had two boxes of ammo left over from Baker and the Q and when getting sight settings at the Mt. 1000 I found only 21 rounds in the box of OE loads and a full box of 1.5 Swiss. The swiss loads shot well at the Q but did not shoot as well as the 2F OE so I used the 2F OE at the Q and ended up in 12th or 15th place ov er all I don't remember which for sure. That was a 83 gr load of 2F OE with a CCI 200 primer and the 535 gr Elliptical PP bullet.
At the Mt. 1000 during sight in the best I could do was 50% on all four targets. Well I pulled out the box of 83 Gr loads of 2F OE and it was lite, it only had 21 rounds in it not enough to shoot the whole match.
On match morning I fouled the barrel on the CPA .45-90 and took one shot using one of the 21 rounds to get a sight setting for it and put the box back in the gypsy wagon.
During the match the Mt winds where doing their best as usual and the first three targets 2 I made 5 hits using the swiss and one only 4 hits. I told Carol to get the box of 83 gr OE for the last target. http://historicshooting.com/mybb/images/smilies/smile.gif she came back and said I can only find this box with 20 rounds in it, I said I only need 11 http://historicshooting.com/mybb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Those 11 rounds all hit most in the white.
This winter I ordered another case of Swiss and when the weather started to get fit for working up test loads I started with 3 rounds each with the two bullets I shoot from zero compression to .400 and came up several times with a 84 gr load with .190" compression so I loaded up a box of 100 and took it to Wisconsin where I had a chance to shoot 600 yards during very calm conditions. They shot a 3" vertical mostly but some that put a hole where my sight didn't see the spot when the shot was fired.
I pulled out three 83 gr OE loads and shot the last 3 and that group with the 3 shots was under 3" closer to 2" @600 yds.
I must admit that this baffles me that I cant get the swiss to shoot better then what I have.
This morning I went out between rains and a mild 10 O-Clock 6 mph wind and shot 10 rounds each alternating shots on two targets to keep the conditions as close as I can and the OE load put 7 shots into a nice 2" oval group with three wild. two I called because of to much finger on the trigger before I was ready and one dropped 2" low I cant explain. The best swiss load was 4" with two wild once.
Fouling control was two damp two dry second dry patch was clean in both loads.
If you Swiss shooters have a secret way of loading I would like to hear it. http://historicshooting.com/mybb/images/smilies/smile.gif .........Kurt

[country gent]

the 1 1/2F olde ensforde performs better in my 45-70 and 45-90 than Swiss does also. I find that the olde ensforde does like some compression More than Swiss and less than goex.

[John Boy]

Kurt, I have found that Swiss shoots better with no or little compression. What is your compression with Swiss. I cleaning out my Swiss inventory to restock with Olde E

[Gunlaker]

In my .45-90, with Dan T's PP chamber, Swiss 1.5 works just a little better than OE 1.5. There isn't much difference though. I haven't tried the OE FFg.

I'm surprised that your powder charge is as light as it is Kurt. Are you seating those bullets deep? Mine uses 93gr of Swiss 1.5 with maybe 0.1" compression. For OE 1.5 I'm using 89gr. In both cases the bullets are 0.110" in the case.

Chris.

[Old-Win]

I won 2 lbs of 3F Old E at the Q last year and I thought I would use it to blow out new cases for a 40-65 that I just picked up. I started loading them today and was surprised at how the granulation size varied. From dust to 3F. Are the 1-1/2F and 2F Old E powders that inconsistent?
84 gr of 1-1/2F Swiss is what I get in my 45-90 Borchardt seated .475" deep over a .030 fiber wad and .050 compression. Bob

[JBinMN]

Ya wanna read something funny? >>>> After reading the topic title... I thought that maybe this was about comparing 2 different types of cheese.
;)

Anyway, interesting stuff to read.
:)

[Lead pot]

Ya wanna read something funny? >>>> After reading the topic title... I thought that maybe this was about comparing 2 different types of cheese.
;)

Anyway, interesting stuff to read.
:)

JB it must be that you live to close to Wisconsin or Iowa :D

[Gunlaker]

Bob, the OE 1.5 I've used has a lot more variation in granule size than Swiss. It sounds a lot like what you are seeing. It does give consistent velocities though. It's also not like the old Goex Express FFg where the bottom of the can would often just be dust :-)

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Old-Win.
3F OE is pretty fine powder. I use it in the flintlock and pan and it does a fine job. I have also used it in the .44's....the .44-75 Ballard and the .44-100 Rem. works well in them. I have never checked what the fines are in 3 or 2F so I cant say.

[JBinMN]

JB it must be that you live to close to Wisconsin or Iowa :D

LOL
Yup ;)

Thanks for getting the joke.
:D

[Lead pot]

Chris.
My chamber is very tight. The fired case will only except a bullet lo larger then .453" so that takes away a lot of powder room. Also the wad stack takes up a bunch also and the bullet is seated in the case 1/8" maybe 3/16" I have never measured it. The compression die is locked in for this rifle and I don't change it.


John.

This swiss load is compressed .190" like I mentioned above and this where I get the best load using the 1 grain interval increase from zero to .400" compression ladder loads.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt my chamber will only hold a bore diameter bullet so it's pretty tight too (0.474" neck od). With Swiss I'm just using a 0.030" veg + a .060" LDPE wad.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

cg

I use the 1.5 OE in my 50 shoots pretty well in it. Never used it in the .45-70 I very seldom shoot a .45-70's Sharps and trap doors.
I tried it several times in two .45-90's and it just don't shoot as well as the 2F. What I have left I will burn up here at home and when it's gone I don't think I will replace it.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I've been using 1 1/2 Swiss for my serious target work for a long while now, more than 16 years for sure. I've never tried OE and probably never will. Swiss has done so well for me that I've never looked elsewhere.

I have used Swiss 1 1/2 successfully in 4 different rifles in competition, well the 4th (my .40-65) one is just getting up and running but I know it will do well for me. I have used zero to over .300" compression in these rifles and while I'll usually find a sweet spot at 0-.090" compression I have also seen a second sweet spot at .250-.375" compression in at least one of my .45-70s.

With paper patched bullets I usually stop at the first sweet spot I find with the least amount of compression because I seat my PPB very swallow, only .060-.100" deep and even zero compression is a lot of powder.

In my .45-70 Hepburn with PPB I have 83.0 grains with .090" compression using a .060 LDPE wad.

In my .45-90 Shiloh with PPB I used 100 grains with very minimum compression and a .060 HDPE wad.

I my .45-70 C. Sharps with GG I use ant where from 75.0 to 82.0 grains and a .060 LDPE.

I my C. Sharps .40-65 with PPB, the rifle I was shooting last Saturday, I am using 72.0 grains with .060 compression and a .060" LDPE wad.

The one thing my best loads (these above) in each of these 3 rifles using PPB have in common is the use of pistol primers. I don't particularly like using pistol primers but I like the results on target so I've learned to ignore the things that bug me about pistol primers in rifle cartridges.

I have no doubt that if I looked for a second sweet spot with more compression in these rifles I'd find it, but in those that I use PPB I don't see a need for more powder. Only in the C. Sharps .45-70 in which I only shoot grease grooved bullets do I push the compression to increase the powder/velocity. If that rifle would shoot PPB I could get the 82.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in there with very little compression, but, sadly, it won't. At least not yet, I never give up trying to get a rifle to shoot PPB and I have a new bullet in mind that just might be the ticket, but the mold isn't cut yet. My mold maker is slower than molasses in January!

I don't think there is really any secret to loading Swiss 1 1/2, I have always found it very easy to get match winning accuracy with it. That being said I do have one rifle that does not like Swiss powder, no way, no how! That's my .44-100, it much prefers 2f Goex, but there are other powders I've never tried in that rifle.

I'd say, try what I've outlined here with your Swiss 1 1/2 and see if that works. If it doesn't it just be that your rifle is not going do it's best with that powder and you'll just have to feed it something else. YMMV

Jim

[Lead pot]

Jim I know you and Brent do well using Swiss and several other shooters I been around also do well using it. This is why I picked up two cases to see what I can to improve better then what I'm doing now. And you are correct about Swiss having two sweet spots with compression and I also have found it to be less then .180" and just under .400" in my .45-90 using a 513 and 535 gr bullets. The 513 gr takes slightly less compression then the 535.
I'm not giving up on Swiss quite yet. Going to Rapids last weekend helped me shooting 600 yards that that load still needs work. Here at home with just 200 yards to work with and the MOA groups I developed with Swiss did not show it at 600 like the proven load of 2F OE that I have been using in the new .45-90 CPA for a year now.
Next weekend I will be going to Alma and I will again have 500 MTRS. to shoot a ladder load again with Swiss.
But I will say this with certainty I feel more drag wiping using swiss then the OE. Just using a damp patch followed with a dry and after about 3 shots fired looking down the bore I see fouling starting to build up and instead of just a damp patch I had to make it wetter if I just wanted to use one damp and one dry. With Swiss I went to one wet and two dry to keep the build up down. This is not what I have to do using OE.
I will get it worked out.

Kurt

[John Boy]

[U][FONT=&amp]I have never checked what the fines are in 3 or 2F so I cant say.


Swiss 1.5 (250.205)
12 mesh – 0.27% retained
14 mesh – 5.24% retained
20 mesh - 92.59% retained
30 mesh - 0.10% retained
Through - 0.72%

Olde E' 1.5Fg:
20 mesh - 98.163% Hold
30 mesh - 0.612% Hold
40 mesh - 0.000%
50 mesh - 1.224% Hold
60 mesh - Trace
80 mesh - Trace Passed

Swiss FFg (250.504)
20 mesh - 76.16% retained
30 mesh - 23.50% retained
Through - 0.34%

Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace

Swiss FFFg (270.409
20 mesh - Trace
30 mesh - 87.2% Hold
40 mesh - 12.8% Hold
50 mesh - Trace

Olde E FFFg:
10 mesh - Zero
20 mesh - 8.07% Hold
30 mesh - 44.72% Hold
40 mesh - 32.29% Hold
50 mesh - 13.66% Hold
60 mesh - 1.24% Hold
80 mesh - Trace passed

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, what size of patches are you using for wiping? In the 44's and 45's 2 1/2 inch seem to work much better than the smaller ones.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I know what you're saying about the fouling with 1 1/2 Swiss and I agree, at least with my .45s (70 & 90). With my Shiloh.45-90 I just sucked it up and went with two wet patches followed by one dry. That was a little slow but not too bad time wise. Because of the jazz my then spotter gave me over "....all the time spent wiping when I should be shooting!", I made up at set of bore pigs or bore gophers or whatever you want to call them. Those things worked great, one pass through the bore and it was squeaky clean and faster than Glenn's one wet & one dry so he quit bugging me about my wiping time. I managed to win back to back Mother's Day long-range matches at Lodi using that system. Fouling buildup was never a problem.

When I made the switch to my Hepburn in .45-70 and I quickly found out that that rifle doesn't want to be squeaky clean, it likes to be a "little" dirty. So I went to one wet & one dry. That comes with a whole different set of problems, maintaining the just right level of "a little bit dirty" is a much harder task. Too clean and the group opens up, too dirty and shot drop lower and lower as the fouling builds and the velocity drops. The simple answer to that problem is on every 5th or 6th shot run two wet and one dry. That's the safe answer because it always works fairly well, the heavy buildup never gets started. Because how soon the buildup becomes too much is very dependent on conditions I have two other options for knowing when or ever if I need that 2nd wet patch.

First, I can wait for a unexplained low shot, the first of those is only a minute low, when I see that just run two wet & one dry through and I'm good again.

Second, I can pay close attention to the feel of that first wet patch going through the bore, especially the last 6 inches. If I detect any tightness run that second wet patch through before the dry and I am again good to go.

I basically use all three of these methods depending on conditions and time remaining in my relay. It probably sounds like a lot of work but if I keep my brain in gear and pay attention that rifle/load/bullet is capable of winning any match I enter and that makes me happy to do whatever she tells me to do. The hard part is listening to what she's telling me when under match conditions!

Now with my .40-65 I have not encountered the problem of fouling buildup being enough to cause any issues. That may be a result of a more efficient burn in that tapered case as opposed to the straight .45 cases? At Rapids last Saturday I shot 22 round at 300 and 22 at 600 all while wiping with one wet and one dry. There may have been one time at 600 that I felt the wet patch a bit tight and I ran a second wet patch followed by the one dry. It's so ingrained in me to "feel" the patch as it goes through the bore that if I even think a second wet patch is needed it a done deal.

I was very pleased with the way my .40-65 shot at both 300 & 600, but especially at 600. Being that it is an 18 twist barrel and the bullet is only 382 grains and 1.250" long, the outer edge of length for an 18 twist to stabilize, I was happy they made it to 600 yards. I was able to keep most of the last ten shots inside the 10-ring with a couple of 9s but also a few Xs. The constantly flipping mirage was a bit tricky and challenging to keep up with while spotting for myself, but it was a bucket load of fun. I need to do a bunch more shooting with this rifle. I'm bringing it to Lodi next month but I'm torn between shooting the .40-65 or my .45-70 Hepburn. It will likely be the Hepburn because I know that one so well and because I want to bring James up to speed on the Hepburn so he can shoot a better score hopefully.

So to sum this rather long post up, I shoot 1 1/2 Swiss because I win matches shooting it and I do what I have to to control the fouling for the same reason. That will not be true for everyone and every rifle, but it damn sure works for me. Keep in mind that my experience with other powders is rather limited and as always YMMV.

Jim

[Lead pot]

I'm still waiting for my .40-65 reamer. I ordered it last Feb and I still don't have it. Everything is ready for the chamber. I was hoping that I would have it before I take off on my Shooting circuit, but it don't look like it will happen this year.

I didn't worry about center target at Rapids I just wanted to get on paper and shoot a group. All shots I took where using swiss loads except the last 2 that went through the spotter with it stuck in the third hole under the spotter. That was my 83 gr OE load.

Well my Daughter just came and she wants to go shoot to get ready for the Q so I better through stuff in the Jeep and get going.
She was here four days ago to shoot but the range was loaded so we shot in the front yard :) She handles that .45-70 pretty well.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_0451_zps9pqepn9h.mp4 (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0451_zps9pqepn9h.mp4)

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I didn't worry about center either, not right away at 600 anyway. My first shots on paper grouped below the black at 6:00. Once I had an idea of group size I moved to the center and at first tried making corrections for the ever changing mirage by turning on the knobs, but that was too slow. I'd watch the mirage in the spotting scope, let it get running good which ever way, then turn in a correction on my scope, get in the rifle and get centered and break the shot. A couple times the mirage would reverse from the time I left the spotting scope, made the correction, and broke the shot. That would result in an 8 or a 7, not good. So I decided to just hold off for my correction, which is super easy with a scope. I'd just move from the spotting scope to the rifle with my no wind zero dialed in then hold either 3:00 or 9:00 and break the shot. That worked very well being much faster I was able to beat the switches resulting in good center hits. That is just the sort of practice I need and can't get on my home range. I did this in part to help prepare me for the Creedmoor Cup at Lodi in June, no coaching allowed in that match so I'll be totally on my own. I've shot under those rules before but it's been a while so a little practice seemed like a good idea and was fun. Plus it gives me an idea as to what this rifle can do under match conditions, which was one of several things I wanted to test. I wish I could go and do that once a month! My match scores would improve and it wouldn't hurt my spotting for others any either. That was my thinking when I moved to center with my last several shots. I also needed a good 600 yard sight setting and centering my shots gave me that. I now have good solid sight settings for 200, 300, and 600 yards, 400 & 500 should be easy to figure pretty darn close using the info I learned last weekend.

And I only hit the spotter once in the center of the target so you got beat there, but I did come close many times! :p

Jim

[Lead pot]

Just got back from the range with My Daughter. We shot in the rain for 1-1/2 hrs :) not my choice it was her call and I made her clean her own rifle LOL. I will re clean it when she goes home. I'm going to get a membership this fall for Rapids. I go past there often during the summer and it's only 4 hrs north close enough to run up for a couple days testing loads and that range is shielded pretty well for east/west winds. It's a bummer when you use matches to do the long range load developments.
I will miss out on the Creedmoor Cup. I hope they will do it again next year. You and your rifle is my type of game. It brings out the shooters ability only not a team effort where the spotter seldom gets the credit.


Don, forgot; I use 2-1/2" patches and they are on the tight side.

[BrentD]

The loads for the top 10 scores at the nationals are always posted in the results, if the competitors are wiling to devulge them. In BPCR and BPTR, that is normally the case. When I have looked, because some internet expert has often and loudly claimed otherwise, I find that on the order of 90-95% of the top ten shooters use Swiss. Usually 1.5f but sometimes 2f. I don't recall any 3f, but maybe Moritz or someone out there uses a different granulation.

Of course, relying on just that information alone can lead to everyone doing what everyone else does and a better alternative might never rise to the top. However, OE has been available now for quite a few years. Early on, they were also very big on being sure it was handed out as door prizes at lots of matches, so it was available and lots of people, myself included, have tried it. We would all like to shoot USA powder. And for sure we all want an edge that any superior component might provide. But OE hasn't been that edge for almost, but not quite, everyone.

Scores really took a jump when Swiss became available and it spread through the games like a wildfire, replacing the then king of the hill, Goex Cartridge. There was no similar jump in scores when OE arrived, and it has not spread rapidly at all. It also hasn't gone away, so it's good powder, but maybe not the best, at least for competitions like BPCR and BPTR. It might be better for CLA (I would like to try more of it for that purpose) and perhaps for hunting, but that has yet to be determined.

When a new shooter asks for some help with a load, I always strongly recommend Swiss 1.5 fg, lest the newbie get discouraged and give up early. Then, if the mood strikes, go try the OE or something else, but begin with what seems to hold the throne before crossing over into less well proven country. There are some really, really good new shooters coming up the ranks now that are doing well following that recipe.

But before anyone takes the dive on a particular brand of powder, do some research and see how many are shooting it, and then see how many that are shooting really well are using it. All of this is available in the various match reports.

[John Boy]

Brent, I could never understand why more top ranked shooters have not been using KIK. I have found it to be a better burning and less fouling powder (the 2010 lot, not the 2004) than Swiss.
Here is an example of 50 consecutive rounds of 1.5F and FFg KIK shot in a 38-55 out accurately to 500m with minor vernier adjustments than my previous settings with no tubing or patching...
one water cotton ball and 3 dry:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20May%202011/DSC00398.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgway%20May%202011/DSC00398.jpg.html)

[BrentD]

They don't use KIK because the contest is not about fouling, but about scoring points. I could not care less about fouling. I do care about points and thus accuracy and precision. Swiss has it over all the other powders. I have not gone back in the books and looked for KIK shooters to see how they scored, but I am quite confident in saying, probably not very well. In the end, that's all that matters.

[ian45662]

I have been shooting old E in my paper patch loads and my rifle seems to really like it. 2F specifically. 1.5 not so much. I did a quick test of Swiss 82 grains and the cci br2 primer. Didn't put them on paper but shot 15 rounds at rams and only knocked over 2 of them. I know it's was a very informal test and when the season is over I am going to revisit the Swiss for sure but I am pretty happy with the old E.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Don McDowell]

The main thing to shooting well is finding something that works and sticking with it. That's why folks that have shot Swiss for several years stick with it, and most won't even try anything new, they have no reason to. Then on the other hand you have young guns like Ian and a couple others that started out working with Olde Eynsford and are about 1 animal short of making master in less than 2 years shooting..
Find the load you and your match rifle can both live with stick with it. Use a different gun to experiment around with other powders, bullets etc.
If it ain't broke , don't fix it.

[Lead pot]

Don, If it broke don't fix it is always the advice I give when I'm asked about something. But the way I look at despite my advice given is there is room for improvement look for a way to fix it :)

[Don McDowell]

Kurt that's always the down fall, wondering well what if... :)
I am coming to the conclusion that if a person has a load that will consistently shoot 3 moa or less, that would be good enough to win most matches anywhere anytime. Mental preparedness will do as much or more for good scores as any. In the "team" contests, your spotter having a bad day, or gets to mentally wandering around following lil animals, will do more to wreck your score than what brand of powder you choose. Get some weird mirage and wind tricks going and the frustration can mount even further... Rifle stock develop's a hair line crack, firing pin breaks ,barrel set screw backs out, sight staff loosen's in the drum. These are all little things that can plant seeds of doubt in a given load.
At this point in the season, go with the load you know shoots the best everywhere you've taken it, and run with it.

[Lead pot]

Don I cant go with 3 MOA with my rifles I use for a match. All of my rifles short of one will shoot better then 3 MOA baring conditions. I put my limit for better then 1.5. 3 moa with just a twitch at the wrong time could be a miss off a critter or a 5' paper at long range.

[Don McDowell]

Twitch at the wrong time, unseen shift in wind or mirage, a little cloud coming over, or the sun peeking thru cloud cover, a case stretching,,, there are tons of things that will make a moa load shoot a miss..
But if you know the gun will consistently shoot 3 moa or less, that will keep the shots inside the 9 ring or on the rams.

[BrentD]

I don't know any serious shooter that is even slightly interested in a 3 MOA rifle. That wont hold the rams, nor the turkeys or much of anything else. It certainly won't win a target match.

All the best shooters I know have tried OE, because everyone of them wants any additional edge they can get. But most of them couldn't find anything there with OE. It does work for a few people, but not many. Look at how fast Swiss replaced Goex Cartridge and then look at how long OE has been around and it is still second fiddle to Swiss.

[Lead pot]

Don, I would have a hard time going on lime with a 3 MOA rifle or load. Lord knows that I put my self out of the top running several times by me fat fingering the trigger or some other thumb thing like using a 1000 sight setting for 900 or a 600 for the 800 and shoot two rounds in the deep grass where the spotter cant see the impact or not tighten the eye cup after a sight change. Yes this is what the top shooters don't often do, they are more disciplined on line then I am and this makes them better then I am. I need all the help I can get.

I spotted for Brent and #1 Jim at long range matches and I watched them close and I see that they are like a machine behind that buttstock except maybe Brent :) he makes me curl my toes when waiting for the conditions are like a friendly dogs tail and when I tell him to take the shot seconds tick by like hours before he breaks the shot. He does not get in a hurry. This is something I have a hard time controlling and having a 3 moa rifle or load will take me out of the running when the rings on the target below are. A 3moa rifle will put me in the 8 ring with a good center break or even the 7.

1000 yard Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . 10.00 10 ring . . . . . . . 20.00 9 ring . . . . . . . . 30.00 8 ring . . . . . . . . 44.00
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . 60.00 6 area . . . 72x72 square

[BrentD]

Yeah, I'm sorta slow on the trigger :) :)

But I don't break a bad shot very often.

[Chill Wills]

Four years ago I had a few phone conversations Chris Hodgdon, Olde Eynsford was just out. I asked him to provide me a case of his new powder to hand out at my American Creedmoor Cup match. I assured him that there would be some of the countries best BPTR riflemen there.
He agreed and sent me a case of Olde Eynsford FF. I passed it out among the competitors, 2-3 lbs each for people to try. I tried loading it in all kinds of ways (I'm not new at this) and found it promising, but did not find the confident loads I wanted. Close, but always a flyer or two that made me cringe. I got the lot number and had Dave Gullo bring me a case the next time we shot together.

I've shot all of the sample powder and few pounds out of the case, but still no joy.


I will keep shooting it as I have most of a case still, but for any match, local or nationals, it is Swiss for me.
I've competed against no small number of riflemen at our local matches that say they shoot Olde Eynsford. I hope they keep at it:razz:. I don't tell them about Swiss. I am sure they will try Swiss sooner or later.



Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Michael I have not given up on the Swiss, I'm still working with it. But at this point the OE is outshooting the Swiss for me but I have shot up a several hundred pounds of it to this point since it came on the market. Swiss has shown good groups @ 200 but it failed to hold up at the Quigley and the Montana 1000 were I had to go back with my 2F OE to finish the match. Even then some of the top shooters where under me at the finish. Like I said I'm still working on the Swiss loads. I just don't have a long range I can use to work with the loads unless I'm shooting a match.
Raining again so down in the mole den loading again.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, the aiming black on the LR targets is 4 minutes. sr target 4.5 moa, silhouette ram is almost 6 minutes head to tail... If a gun can consistently hold 3 moa or less , it'll be competitive, tighter is better, but sometimes chasing your tail around the magical moa load is taking time away from proving up on shooting technique, that could in it's self turn a 3 moa load into 2 or better. And always keep in mind the words of Rick Moritz, a 5 and a 6 will beat an x and a miss every time.
Powder brand makes little difference, the bullet/lube/wad combo is just as important, if a person can find a good combination, you can be competitive.
The Eynsford thing, I know several of the shooters that got the free samples didn't shoot it, and you can't blame them. Then you take a look at what folks like Chip Mate are doing with the stuff... I've got the better end of a case of Swiss 1 1/2, it shoots no better or no worse than Eysnford, or Express. All 3 of which shoot cleaner than Cartridge, but then again Cartridge could be very accurate, if you stayed on the top of the fouling control.
I have to chuckle a bit about all the claims to the number of shooters winning with Swiss, but at the same time that also translates into a larger number of folks loosing the match shooting Swiss.
Find your best loads and go shoot.

[Lead pot]

Yes the black is 4.4moa but if you break center that cuts it down to 2.2 moa you have to stay on to get that 8 :)

[Chill Wills]

Hey Kurt,
Really, I'm pretty happy with people using what ever makes them feel good.
If someone is getting results they are happy with, I say they are good to go.
After all, match shooting is competition.

OK, next persons turn........

[Gunlaker]

Indeed Chills, and the only way these things can be resolved is at a match :-)

[Don McDowell]

Kurt, that's the point, if you don't break center each and every time, a moa load won't keep you from a miss...
Work up your best load, and then head out to a match, with that load and that load only, no "practice ammo", no "well I think this might be alright" loads, match loads and match quality loads only. If by the end of the match, that load isn't shooting like you thought it should, and one has to be very honest with one's self that it wasn't truly shooter/spotter error, or a gun problem, then it's time to go rework the load.

[BrentD]

Kurt, that's the point, if you don't break center each and every time, a moa load won't keep you from a miss...

Actually, it very well might keep you from a miss and that is the point.

[Don McDowell]

Counting on a moa load to save you a miss because of bad trigger breaks is a false hope.

[BrentD]

Obviously, you would know since you shoot a 3 MOA rifle and miss more than anyone.

[Lead pot]

Hey Kurt,
Really, I'm pretty happy with people using what ever makes them feel good.
If someone is getting results they are happy with, I say they are good to go.
After all, match shooting is competition.

OK, next persons turn........

Michael I couldn't agree with you more, that is what it should be.

:) I can see where this thread is heading and I will regret posting my effort testing these two powders and posting what I have seen on my targets.
Kurt

[Gunlaker]

Kurt it is interesting to hear your results. It has also worked well for Kenny as he seems to be using it in the .45-110 these days. I've yet to try that trick in mine.

I actually use OE 1.5 in my .40-65 Shiloh where it performs very well for mid-range. It's actually giving good velocity very consistent velocities with 15 shot SD's under 4 fps. I'm confident that this rifle, if there were no operator error, could comfortably hold the 10 ring on all mid-range targets from 200 to 600.

In my other rifles I've been using Swiss as it's working better for me, but I don't do enough load development to be confident that I'll think the same thing by next year.

With respect to accuracy, I'll always chase it as far as I can go. I do spend more time on perfecting my hold and trigger break than on ammunition experiments. I think both are necessary to get the very highest scores. Scores are usually pretty close when you look at the top 5 in most matches.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt just take your best load and run with it. You'll have plenty of time to mess with retesting stuff after you get back from the Montana journey.

[country gent]

More important is the competitors, confidence" level in his gun, load, and abilities. A good shooter with confidence can do much more with less.

[Lead pot]

I know what my rifle can do C-G with out a good load and what I'm able to with that good load is getting in question for me :D
I just finished unloading the Jeep and the spotter board still had the pins stuck in it. Here is the 600 yard results as close as my Wife could stick the pins in the paper. The vertical when I got down in the pit was about 2" looking at the 1 inch pastors for judgement. I did not adjust for conditions or center I just wanted to get on paper and see a group and more important to me, the vertical. The top was shot with the 1.5 swiss and the last 3 with OE after a sight adjustment to get away from the swiss group and a effort to hit center. Those 3 shots are under 3" and closer to 2" I cant go by the rings on the spotting board because it's to small and the pins are to big :)
In reality both loads I shot on this target will work.
Kurt
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_23a45ba5-7c9a-4629-b379-2e781bcf72f3_zpst1soix6q.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/23a45ba5-7c9a-4629-b379-2e781bcf72f3_zpst1soix6q.jpg.html)

[BrentD]

Nice shooting Kurt. It's always great when you can't make the group really representative because it's tighter than a MOP (Minute of Pin). :)

[Gunlaker]

That looks really good Kurt. You definitely need to find some smaller pins for that spotting board :-).

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Take the load that made that little 3 leaf clover and run with it.

[Lead pot]

Nah! back hurts to much to be doing any running :)

[Don McDowell]

LOL ok load it on your 4 wheeler and take off the .

[Distant Thunder]

I posted this on the Shiloh forum and I'll repost it here because these results best explain why I use Swiss 1 1/2 for my serious target work. I will explain after this.



It was another well run and fun match at Lodi. We did have a little bit of rain Saturday morning during the 1st relay, but as soon as I was done shooting the sun came out and the other relays enjoyed dry conditions! It figures http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif !

I found the wind a bit challenging at times, others apparently didn't notice any wind or at least it didn't blow them all over the target. There seemed to be enough reversals that almost everyone got caught at least once. And one shooter decided to create his own style of reversal and turned his windage the wrong way until one leaked off the right side of his target. In the end it wasn't enough of a mistake to give the rest of us mere mortals a chance to catch him. Some guys have all the luck...., and very good spotters (Bob Wood and Mike Metzel).

The top end looked like this after the smoke cleared:

1st - Brent Danielson 544-7X

2nd - Bob Walline 529-10x

3rd James Kluskens (JK2) 525-7x *

4th Jim Kluskens (JK1) 518-8X

5th Rick Chianelli 515-6X

6th Sam Thompson 504-3X

7th Tom Sermersheim 501-2X

8th Jeff Heeler 492-6X

9th Paul Gritmacker 490-3X

10th Bill Barglof 487-6X

There were 25 shooters all together but I'll end it at 10th place to keep this from getting too long.

It sure was a great weekend and a fun group od shooters to be with. Thanks to Mark Schuenke, Ed Force, and Cliff Gregg for keeping everything running smooth and safe.

The Lodi range is one of the best I've ever shot on and the club continues to expand it and make improvements. If you haven't ever joined us or haven't joined us in a while you are missing out on some fun times. The next match is in June, a long-range match, you should join us if you can.

* This score made my weekend. Congratulations, son! http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

JK1



Ok now some explaining. Toward the end of my shooting season last year I was coming to the end of my then current lot of Swiss 1 1/2. I had maybe a pound and half left when I cleaned my Hepburn and put her away for the long winter.

Then this spring as beginning to warm up enough to venture out I knew wasn't going to have enough of the old lot to shoot the first match on Mother's Day weekend, the above match. This is because my son, James, was planning on shooting with me in that match and I had decided last fall I was going to put on my Hepburn shooting PPB along with me. He had been shooting my old C. Sharps .45-70 with the Lyman 457135 Postell bullet over various charges of 1 1/2. I just didn't think he was reaching his potential with that combination. So while 1.5 pounds would be enough for one of us to shoot the match it would not make enough 83.0 grain loads for both of us to shoot the match. I didn't want to have him shooting one lot and me another because we'd have to keep them separated and that could be difficult when we are sharing a rifle and most everything else to shoot the match.

So the logical answer was to just switch to the new lot for both of us. I checked the weight of the new against the old, I would have to increase my powder measurer setting plus 4.3 grains to get the same 83.0 grains weight. The new lot was less dense. In the past this is the way I have always done it, keep the same weight, adjust the volume and compression as needed. There has usually been less of a difference than the 4.3, but I just wasn't going to have time to test the load and much less to start adjusting anything. So I set the measurer to give me 83.0 grains by weight and I decided to make a small adjustment in my seating depth to have a little less compression on the greater volume. Just .025", leaving the bullets .100" in the cases instead of the .125". I changed nothing else and never fired a test shot before the match. I just loaded 176 rounds and headed for Lodi.

The first match of the year there is always a little getting used to being in the saddle again and James had never pulled the trigger on my Hepburn before his first sighter at 300 yards, so there was some getting used to it for him. In the end the rifle and Swiss preformed as they were expected, absolutely fantastic.

As to the fouling, in the hot dry wind on Sunday when I couldn't seem to drink enough water to make spit we just wetted the patches a bit more and stayed with the 1 wet, 1 dry for wiping. There was a time or two during the 500 yard on Sunday before I added water to the patches when things started to tighten up near the muzzle and I ran a 2nd wet before the dry one. I just keep a feel on my bore as I wipe and adjust as needed, the rifle just kept dropping them in the center. I don't have any problem with the fouling as long as I keep an eye on it. If you don't pay attention you'll end up in trouble one way or another, so I pay attention to what my rifle is telling me on each and every shot and James did the same. It works for us.

The match results above show why Swiss 1 1/2 is what I use, not only is it accurate but it is easy as hell to go from one lot to the next. That is the way I have been doing it since I switched to 1 1/2 on the advise from a national and world champion shooter many years ago. I have never regretted the move and never looked elsewhere for powder. For me Swiss 1 1/2 works and works every time.

Jim

[Old-Win]

Jim, Interesting the way you do it and we know how successful you and JK2 have been. I've been doing it by volume and keeping my compression around .050 to .070". Makes sense that there is the same amount of energy in equal weights of powder. Next change in cases, I'll try it by weight.
We had a conflict here at Harris or Mike and I would have been at Lodi last weekend. We're going to have a conflict for the Creedmoor match as well as we head for the Q the next day and wouldn't have enough turn around time. Did Cliff mention how the sign ups are coming for the All America and Creedmoor Challenge? I see that our shooting partner finished 7th at his first mid-range match. Good for him. Bob Saathoff

[Distant Thunder]

Bob,

Cliff didn't really give a clear answer when I asked about how the turnout was looking for the Cup, so I can't say. For me the 4 day thing isn't going to happen though I would like go for the Cup match. I won't do both, that I know.

Yes I noticed the conflicting schedules when I checked on the schedule at Harris to see if a date might work for me to finally get over there. Brent and I talked late last year about doing one of your matches together, but I'm now thinking that isn't likely going to happen.

There were a number of people who made a good showing for themselves last weekend, names not heard before called out for recognition for shooting in the top 3 at each of the distances. This was especially good to see. Tom had the 2nd highest 2-day score at 600, beat me by a point. I like it best when the winners aren't known before the match begins.

That's the thinking, x number of grains = x amount of energy and that the actual volume is just a part of the process and matters little. I have not chronographed the new stuff to see if the fps are the same, but it shot maybe a little better than the old lot so I ain't too worried about it.

With the old lot I started at 82.0 grains and went up to 86.0, 83.0 gave the best groups with my 520 grain PPB. It works at least as well with 83.0 of the new lot.

I had to go through the same shift with my .40-65 and the 382 grain PPB I'm shooting in it. With the old 1 1/2 I found 72.0 grains to be best. When I switched to the new lot I again loaded 72.0 grains and got excellent results. I have every bit of confidence in 1 1/2 Swiss doing it this way. With paper patched bullets there is no need to compress Swiss 1 1/2 a bunch, but I've not seen were adjusting the compression a little to maintain the same weight hurts at all. I'm sure it could be different for other rifles.

This was an especially fun match for me having James finally shot very well. He was quite surprised when they called his name for 3rd overall and they made it clear it was James, not Jim Kluskens. Which I think may have been a little dig at me! It couldn't have turnout any better any other way as far as I'm concerned.

I think it would impossible to get him to shoot any other rifle now and he knows just how accurate those paper wrapped bullets can be. He hit the X-ring 3 times in his last for shots at 600 yards, the 2nd X hit the spotter and even his last shot, a 10, wasn't more than 5 inches below the 3 Xs. I don't know what he and Jeff had for conditions but I know it wasn't a light and steady wind! It was a switchy S.O.B. when I was spotting for him at 500 and him for me at 600. It was just crank and shoot. Fun as hell!

Hope to see you guys in September then. Take care and shoot well!

[semtav]

[QUOTE=Lead pot;4029787]
This morning I went out between rains and a mild 10 O-Clock 6 mph wind
[/QUOTE

I don't know anything about those powders other than what Brent told me, but tell me more about the rain !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lead pot]

:D Brian all I can tell you about rain and that is it's wet :D If you need some just do the rain dance to turn it your way we have had enough, over 12" counting this mornings collection in the last 10-12 days. Rivers are up most of the back water on the Mississippi just have trees showing, no dirt. That's all I can tell you about rain :)

[semtav]

yea , Forsyth's not bad and Billings has been getting lots, but up where I'm working we have had 1/4 inch all spring. season is about over.

[Lead pot]

We sure could use your bug bomber in these parts. The Tic's are thick this year from the mild winter and heavy rains. Took two deer tics off and had to get blood tests plus the 3 large wood tics mowing grass.

[semtav]

We sure could use your bug bomber in these parts. The Tic's are thick this year from the mild winter and heavy rains. Took two deer tics off and had to get blood tests plus the 3 large wood tics mowing grass.

I've heard on other type forums that there are a lot of tics out there. I do a lot of metal detecting and picked one up real early. so early I never thought about it. found it by a natural growth on my body about 3 days later. had a dark ring already. I fried it of and seared the area around it. All gone now but I should had it checked. Haven't had a tic since and i've been out a lot.

[Lead pot]

I just pull them straight up when I have one clamped in. Deer tics are so small when they first lock on they look like a small stick pin head and I usually scratch a itch not knowing it's a deer tic till I see blood. When the bulls eye shows up you better get in and have it tested. This year the large what I call wood tics are a new bunch that can be worse then the deer tics.
The Doc. told me the best way to remove one is just pull it straight up don't burn it or try using liquids, you don't want them to inject more saliva.
I took one home last years Mt. 1000 :-D

[rfd]

right, kurt - don't tick the ticks off so they don't empty their stomach contents fulla nasties into yer bloodstream.

sorry to further hijack this thread, but lyme disease is worth talking about a bit for the sake of some folks.

hello, my name is rob, i've had lyme disease for over 8 years. lyme (borrelia burgdorferi spirochete) is still considered systemic and with you for life.

a fine point tweezer is still considered the best/safest way to get the bug out, forced down into yer skin and around the bug's body, clamp the head or just above, flick out. do all this fast. fingernails can do that if they're long enuf, else yer gambling on turning the bug into a hypo needle. not a problem if the tick's head stays under yer skin.

once you have had a tick embedded in you, and if no physical signs of lyme emerge within 24 hours, you have essentially two courses of action ... 1) antibiotics, or 2) homeopathy. the problem *I* have with antibiotics is the overuse of them and how as a result they can then fail you later on life when you really need them. i highly recommend a naturopath who understands and has worked with this bacterium.

many diff'rent species of ticks are everywhere, all the time. so are skeeters. BOTH bug types can infect a human with spirochetes (lyme disease - the special bacteria that's in a class all of its own).

there's a lot of nonsense going around about lyme disease, and for the most part it can be hard to get at the real truth behind this epidemic tragedy that's befallen humanity. research carefully and know yer options if, and when, you get infected ... and how to know for sure IF you are infected with spirochetes AND its deadly co-infections, babesia, ehrlichia, bartonella.

to date, there is NO proof positive test for lyme disease. false positives/negatives abound.

however, there is a new urine test for lyme that may change that ... BUT until all the testing is done and 100% of all lyme laboratory test cases come back positive, and it becomes THE way to check for lyme, i would caution everyone to DO NOT RELY ON ANY TESTS FOR LYME DISEASE.

be safe, not sorry. good luck out in nature.

[Lead pot]

Rob you go right away and hijack away. I have had 4 bulls eyes from deer tics. The first the Doctor told me there are no deer tics in this area that he has heard of. Well I handed him a sandwich gag with a little spot in it from what was left of it after I scratched my itch :) that was in the early 20's in the last three years I had three more bulls eyes, two last week alone. This new tic that just showed up Doc said a lot worse then the deer tics

[rfd]

kurt, i'm real sorry to hear it you appear to be infected. the type of tick don't matter a fig, they're all capable of carrying the disease. so can other bugs. early on, it was the ticks feasting on infected rodents. don't matter, lyme is now everywhere and of epidemic proportions. this is in addition to other tick borne diseases such as rocky mtn fever. yeah, the meek shall inherit the earth, we're f'd.

[Yellowhouse]

Don't forget Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever! My Doc says it is more prevalent than lyme in this area of Oklahoma.....tick capital of the world. Vectors, symptoms, and treatment are the same as lyme. The causal agents differ...lyme by a spirochaete and RMSF by a rickettsiae. They don't even test to see which one it is here just Rx of doxycycline. RMSF is an extremely serious disease if not treated as is lyme. I've had it twice....once undiagnosed for two years and my wife had it once.