Wads or patches

[archeryrob]

I've always shot round balls and last year I used some sabots. I bought the Lee REAL mold and casted a few and plan to shoot them in after it warms up and I get more free time. I wanted to try them with and without wads after reading some on them. But here the question, Why do I have to use felt wads? Why can't I just take a normal piece of lubed RB patch, or lubed pillow ticking and push it over the powder and then ram the REAL bullet on top of it. I'm sure the extra material will push into the rifling. Anyone tried this and why would it not work the same as a wad? Maybe I'll just punch out some 5/8" cardboard and lube that. Why is Durofelt the only answer?

[stubshaft]

You can cut out wads from a variety of things. I usually use Duro felt and/or cork sheets. Duro felt is homogenous, doesn't burn or smolder and holds a lot of lube.

[Teddy (punchie)]

I'm thinking it would work. Think I used a Maxi Ball with a patch or two under it and maxi was shooting very not as good as the round ball but extra weight and down range energy for the longer shots. I was thinking about 125 yds was max for the accuracy I was getting, if I could fine a place to lean against for a rest. Biggest thing was how dirty the bore was, after pushing it with 120 gr of powder.

[johnson1942]

do you want to shoot accurate or not? 60 thousands fiber wads from track of the wolf dont break the bank, bought in bulk. the fiber wad acts as the new perfect base for your real bullet so gasses are dispersed evenly each time, for accuracy. the wad also seals the hot gasses from getting at the bullet. why fool around and fuss with the accuracy, do it the proven way with science behind it.

[johnson1942]

do you want to shoot accurate or not? 60 thousands fiber wads from track of the wolf dont break the bank, bought in bulk. the fiber wad acts as the new perfect base for your real bullet  so gasses are dispersed evenly each time, for accuracy. the wad also seals the hot gasses from getting at the bullet. why fool around and fuss with the accuracy, do it the proven way with science behind it. 

[Squeeze]

I did that for a few years. punched wads out of felt, cardboard egg cartons, wax juice boxes, waxed cardboard cereal boxes, bar coasters, etc, etc... anything and everything worked to varying degrees. I just buy unlubed veg cards now. Takes a good while to shoot through a bag of a thousand, and they work very well and reliably.

[archeryrob]

Do you lube vegie cards and what cards did you get?

[oldracer]

If it were me (and it was last year) looking at the Lee Minnie mold bullets, I would start with a well lubed bullet slightly tamped onto the powder. Or as my shooting buddy calls it "bare assed nakid"! With the 1 in 48 twist rifled barrel on the gun I bought from Emery, the groups at 100 and 200 yards were all holes touching! I tried fiber wads like I use under several of my slug guns (540 grain Creedmoor cast) and it looked like a shotgun! I wiped between shots and would recommend that as well. Surprisingly, Pedergoli says to not use a wad under their Gibbs bullet when shooting even 110 grains of powder? I tried this at 300 yards and they are right and the results from LRML world championships show this.

[54bore]

do you want to shoot accurate or not? 60 thousands fiber wads from track of the wolf dont break the bank, bought in bulk. the fiber wad acts as the new perfect base for your real bullet  so gasses are dispersed evenly each time, for accuracy. the wad also seals the hot gasses from getting at the bullet. why fool around and fuss with the accuracy, do it the proven way with science behind it. 

Awesome post Roger!! Ive been preaching this exact thing, if you know your powder is consistent, and you use an over powder Wad that creates a solid, repeatable gas seal each time, ACCURACY WILL FOLLOW

[w5pv]

I use precut vegetable fibre wads .060"thick that seem work for me,I tamp them just enough to hold the powder next to the primer so far it has improved my accuracy .

[archeryrob]

Vegetable fiber wads don't need lubing and won't burn?

[Squeeze]

I get mine from sagebrush http://www.sageoutfitters.com/catalog/item/7209324/7463753.htm I usually use the .060, some guys like .030 better. you can use 2 .030 stacked seems to work the same as a .060 for me. I use them unlubed. I noticed the felt ones have a burned felt smell when shooting or cleaning, so I dont like the idea of the residue issue. I dont notice a smell with veg (or really anything else you can find) Mostly big lead conicals in fast twist

[johnson1942]

many years ago there was to much made about the base of the bullet and that it had to be perfect. all it has to be is square to the bullet, that is a must. dents and nicks dont mean anything when you have a solid wad behind the bullets base as the real base of the bullet is that perfect wad, not the base of the bullet. the gasses and fire never ever even see the real base of the bullet. even with my 5 uberti cowboy revolvers. i could never ever shoot them with out wads behind the bullet. i use two wads and never ever get any leading and since ive tuned my guns they really are boring, one hole at 15 to 20 yards from a rest. a wad is the real base of the bullet. fire you gun at night with no lights at all, total darkness. if the fire ball from the muzzle is perfectly the same all the way around then the gasses are even on the base of the wad. if they are not and maybe a little finger is here or there then you need to recrown your muzzle to a perfect muzzle. the gas must come off the wad on the base of the bullet in a perfect circle with no fingers anywheres. the wad helps this out if your muzzle is cut right. never assume the muzzle of your barrel is perfectly cut. also if you trying to shoot paperpatched bullets and your muzzle has been cut on the end to receive and easy load sabots. forget accuracy. ive had to cut the barrels of a couple of rifles back to just behind that factory cut and recrown them. that easy sabot load cut is for sabots only and ruins all other types of bullets used for accuracy. thought this info may help someone in shooting better.

[charlie b]

Using just a wad of cloth instead of a cut wad creates a lot of issues. As noted above, the base of the bullet is all important.

Take your bullet and put a wadded up piece of cloth behind it and press hard enough to upset the lead. You'll get ridges from the wrinkles in the cloth. That is what the bullet will do in the barrel. As it exits you'll get little jets of hot gasses that will 'push' the bullet one way or the other. Then, in flight, those same grooves will affect the airflow, also pushing on the base of the bullet in different directions.

[johnson1942]

charlie b is 100 percent right.

[Lead pot]

Hard fiber wads do very little sealing gas in a muzzle loader because of the deep grooves used in them. Just shoot in a snow bank and dig out the bullet and look at it.
In the fall collect the wasp nests or if you can get at the hornet nests high in trees. Just make a ball out of the wasp nests the size of the bore and seat that over the powder and press the bullet on it. It holds the gas back and you will see the difference down range.

[johnson1942]

hard fiber wad do very little to seal the gasses in a muzzle loader with deep grooves. correct. however fast twist paperpatched bullets are shot from 4 thousands deep groove guns and and a fast twist, they seal perfectly well in those kinds of guns ment for a wad and a pp or cast bullet. why would anyone use a wad behind a roundball in a deep groove gun. i just dont get the science of the post above mine. who would ever use hornets nest behind a paperpatched bullet or a wad behind a round ball with 12 to 16 thousands deep grooves in the barrel. must be missing something here.

[Lead pot]

:) it kinda does make you scratch your head don't it :) I almost asked that same question when I was at a friendly turkey shoot when you split balls on ax heads and over the log driving nails through boards, man those where fun years. There was a old man with a flint rifle that seldom missed a shot and I watched him load his rifle. He would reach in his possible and pull out a large wasp nest and tear off some and spit in his hand and roll that wasp nest into a ball and drive it down on the powder and run a patched ball down on top of it. I asked him why the wasp nest ball? he said...son, I was in my 20's back then. If you want to take some meat home this is what you do.

When I still hunted deer at times I used a shallow twist Renegade Thompson with a maxie ball and during range time after a few shots fired and cleaning the rifle I would get lead strips on the patch. Well when the snow fell I shot some of those maxis into a snow bank to see what was going on and every ball I found has severe gas cuts. My maxis where always cast with 1/40 tin/lead. Then I got out the wasp nests and they stopped the gas cuts and leading.

Also in a original trade rifle I had the grooves where .011" deep and I never had a blown patch with a nest ball under the patched ball.

Kurt

[archeryrob]

Ok, currently I am shooting a CVA hawken 1:48 twist with deep grooves. Is the vegetable card not going to work and have to use wool?

Are the Veg card only for fast twist inlines?

[johnson1942]

is you gun really with deep grooves? most likely 5 thousands at the most. the shooter talking about deep grooves and wasp nest was talking about 12 to 16 thousands deep. that is deep. im sure a good 60 thousands wad will work well in your rifle. felt works well for some but never as good as a 60 thousands wad for me.

[archeryrob]

Ok, just looked at it and they are not as deep as I remembered. They just are not cut lifts like they do in center fire rifles. So a Veg card should be fine then?

How about just punching out beer boxes, I get tired of burning all of them. :)

[johnson1942]

that would be ok but have several of them to equal 60 thousands thick to put under the bullet.

[charlie b]

FWIW, 60 thousandths is right at 1/16" (.0625").

[725]

I just went through this with a T/C Cherokee, .45. Patched balls wouldn't group but when a wool wad went in over the powder, it tightened right up.

[aspangler]

The wasp/ hornet nest trick is from WAY back BUT it WORKS. Ask me how I know. Wasp nests are not safe around me. I collect every one I find and use it in my .45, .50, and also in my rb shooter .32.