Red Dot rule of thumb?

[Lead melter]

I shoot a heap of Unique in various calibers...41 Mag, 44, 45, 30-30, 45/70, etc. and have been very pleased with the performance. Problem around here is that Unique keeps raising in price while Red Dot holds its own.

I know the two burning rates are close, but I have a little trouble finding Red Dot load data for some of the unusual applications like 7.62X54R, 38-55, and so forth.

Anyone got a rule of thumb on Red Dot versus Unique powder charges? I'm one of those guys that starts out low and stays there.

[Ben]

When you say " I know the two burn rates are close ", I can't quite agree with that statement.

Red Dot is very very close to Bullseye in burn rate.

Obviously we can't say that Bullseye and Unique " Are close."

Look at the chart below, there are 25 powders listed between Red Dot and Unique :

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

[RU shooter]

For most full sized military calibers 13 grs is about the top. I have found that 11-12.5 usually yields better results for me on average.

[Boerrancher]

I always used bullseye mid charge data for my start loads with Red dot. Then upped the charge by 10% each time until I found a load that worked well. Never ever thought about using it in Lg cases like 45-70, small charge large case, equals inconsistent results. I only used it in 38 spl, 45 acp, and 9mm. It worked well for that, didn't try it in anything else.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Unique is not as position sensitive as the other powders. You're using it in your .45-70, so that should be an important factor. You might want to try 4227 in the .45-70.
Morgan

[MtGun44]

I think you will find that Unique is well, unique. Other powders seem to
be able to do some portion of what you can due with Unique, but very few
(none that pop to my mind) are as usable in tiny cases like 9mm para up
to light loads to moderate loads in 45-70 and darn near anything in between
without problems and usually with exceptional accy. Unique seems to
be particularly position insensitive, which appears to be a key piece of the
reason it works so well with small amounts in big cases.

The closest that I have found for lg pistol applications is Power Pistol, but
I have not tried it in the milsurp bottleneck cases, or big straight BP
cases lik 45-70.

Bill

[Lead melter]

When you say " I know the two burn rates are close ", I can't quite agree with that statement.

Red Dot is very very close to Bullseye in burn rate.

Obviously we can't say that Bullseye and Unique " Are close."

Look at the chart below, there are 25 powders listed between Red Dot and Unique :

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

I stand corrected.:oops: My intention was that the applications are often similar. Red Dot, Unique, Green Dot, Herco, etc.
Momentary brain failure, which seems to increase each day. Maybe this is why I'm not an attorney.

[Old Ironsights]

I think you will find that Unique is well, unique. Other powders seem to
be able to do some portion of what you can due with Unique, but very few
(none that pop to my mind) are as usable in tiny cases like 9mm para up
to light loads to moderate loads in 45-70 and darn near anything in between
without problems and usually with exceptional accy. Unique seems to
be particularly position insensitive, which appears to be a key piece of the
reason it works so well with small amounts in big cases.

The closest that I have found for lg pistol applications is Power Pistol, but
I have not tried it in the milsurp bottleneck cases, or big straight BP
cases lik 45-70.

Bill
How about 2400? That is looking more and more like my "go to" powder for all of my calibers from .38 to .45-70... including 9.3x72R

[9.3X62AL]

How about 2400? That is looking more and more like my "go to" powder for all of my calibers from .38 to .45-70... including 9.3x72R

That has become the situation here, for sure. If I had to, I could get by with WW-231, Unique, and 2400 for 90% of my reloading--and the remaining 10% would be mostly rifle j-word loads. All 4 shotshell gauges--the cast rifle loads--and handgun stuff could all run on those three.

[Old Ironsights]

... Carpe cyprinidae!

Har de har har.... :groner:[smilie=b:

[MtGun44]

2400, being quite a bit slower than Unique has a different span of possible
uses, basically giving up the low end (9mm, .38 spl, etc) for better velocities
at the upper end (bottleneck milsurps, for example).

Nothing at all wrong with 2400. Al says it very well. With Unique holding down
a REALLY wide middle you can use W231 (or BE or Titegroup) as a fill in on the
low end and 2400 as a fill in on the high end.

If somehow I HAD to have only one powder it would have to be Unique.

The good news it that this won't happen.

All that said - it still meters poorly in some measures and is moderately dirty, which
is notable but of little real consequence.

Bill

[joeb33050]

Please Morgen Astorbilt and MTGUN 44, expand on position sensitivity of powders. What does it do, how do you fix it, anything else.
Thanks;
joe b.










I think you will find that Unique is well, unique. Other powders seem to
be able to do some portion of what you can due with Unique, but very few
(none that pop to my mind) are as usable in tiny cases like 9mm para up
to light loads to moderate loads in 45-70 and darn near anything in between
without problems and usually with exceptional accy. Unique seems to
be particularly position insensitive, which appears to be a key piece of the
reason it works so well with small amounts in big cases.

The closest that I have found for lg pistol applications is Power Pistol, but
I have not tried it in the milsurp bottleneck cases, or big straight BP
cases lik 45-70.

Bill

[TAWILDCATT]

I was given a load of =red dot 13 gr in 30/06 with 311291 it cronied 1680 in 1903
springfield and was a very tight shooter.
I us it in all my military rifles but might tweek it a little.
just bought 2 lbs at sportsmans warehouse in columbia sc $15.99 per lb.

[Alchemist]

[QUOTE=Lead melter;365457]I shoot a heap of Unique in various calibers...41 Mag, 44, 45, 30-30, 45/70, etc. and have been very pleased with the performance. Problem around here is that Unique keeps raising in price while Red Dot holds its own.

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ If you shoot a heap of Unique and like it, why not getcha some for the same price as Red Dot?? Powder Valley has as good of prices as I've been able to find. True, there are hazmat fees and shipping, but if ya can swing a coupla jugs, the per # price will be better. Get a buddy or two to go in with you on a big order and spread the hazmat/shipping out and you all save $$$.

[Old Ironsights]

2400, being quite a bit slower than Unique has a different span of possible
uses, basically giving up the low end (9mm, .38 spl, etc) for better velocities
at the upper end (bottleneck milsurps, for example).

Nothing at all wrong with 2400. Al says it very well. With Unique holding down
a REALLY wide middle you can use W231 (or BE or Titegroup) as a fill in on the
low end and 2400 as a fill in on the high end.

If somehow I HAD to have only one powder it would have to be Unique.

The good news it that this won't happen.

All that said - it still meters poorly in some measures and is moderately dirty, which
is notable but of little real consequence.

Bill
I have a pound of Titegroup that I currently use for catsneeze loads... but it's dirty in that ap too.

For Screamers I like RL7 in the 45-70 & LilGun in the .357, but 2400 does well enough for me to order another 8 lbs of it...

I wonder if I can use 2400 in full-brass 16ga shot shells... that would cover every caliber I load for.

I look for usefulness, not absolute performance...

[RayinNH]

Lead melter, you might find this article by Ed Harris helpful...Ray

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=1387&forum_id=22

[Harry O]

I have used Bullseye and Red Dot load data interchangeably for many years (successfully I might add). Unique is different from both of them. I would suggest that you look at Bullseye charges instead of trying to convert from Unique.

Keep in mind that Red Dot is a flake powder and doesn't meter very accurately (when compared with Bullseye), but then so is Unique (a flake powder that doesn't meter very accurately), so you are not losing anything there.

[Lead melter]

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ If you shoot a heap of Unique and like it, why not getcha some for the same price as Red Dot?? Powder Valley has as good of prices as I've been able to find. True, there are hazmat fees and shipping, but if ya can swing a coupla jugs, the per # price will be better. Get a buddy or two to go in with you on a big order and spread the hazmat/shipping out and you all save $$$.


You would not believe the number of times I have tried to get a buy like this together. Seems like none of the shooters around here can get past the saving only $2 per pound issue, or the "I can save $4 per pound if I buy 8 pounds, but what am I going to do with 8 pounds of powder?" The idea of 'Yankee thrift' never made it to these parts.

RayinNH,

Thanks for the link. Lots of useable info there.

[MtGun44]

Joe33050,

Position sensitivity is an inherent property of a particular powder. If you are
using a case full of powder, position sensitivity is meaningless, since it is in
the same position in the case under all conditions - FULL. With progressively
smaller amounts of powder in a case, especially a very large case and a very
small amount of powder you can get a situation where the velocity of the
bullet MIGHT be very different if the powder is located in a different position.

A way to check this is to point the muzzle of a loaded test firearm at the ground
and thump the firearm in some way to ensure that the powder is settled in the
case to the front, at the bullet end of the case. Then carefully lift the firearm
to level and fire that shot over a chronograph. For the next round, raise the
muzzle to the vertical and bump the powder to the back of the case, then smoothly
lower the muzzle to level and fire over a chronograph. If the two velocities are
very similar, then the powder is position insensitive - in that sized case with
that amount of powder. If the velocities are markedly different, say 10% or more
(totally arbitrary !) then you can say that that particular case and amount of
powder is demonstrating position sensitivity.

Where this comes into play is that when using small charges of powder in large
cases, you cannot expect best accuracy with very large velocity changes if the
small amount of powder winds up either at the front or back of the case in normal
handling of the gun prior to a shot.

SO --- since Unique shows very good accuracy with very small amounts of powder
in huge cases (look at 10 gr of Unique in a 45-70 case some day!!) we can infer
that Unique is pretty position insensitive, so is a good choice for this kind of load -
FROM THE POINT OF POSITION SENSITIVITY. The additional good thing about Unique
is that it's burning speed and bulk permit you to use it in small pistol cases for full
or medium power loads, and for low to moderate power loads in many powerful
rifle cartridges. So Unique's speed, bulk and position insensitivity all help it to
work well over a very large range of cartridges.

Some powders are very position sensitive, and I have read reports of very large
velocity variation in muzzle up and muzzle down conditions with some factory
.32-20 loads, for instance.

I would think this is an unchangable characteristic of a particular powder, but
possibly a magnum primer may improve a load that demonstrates position
sensitivity.

Hope this helped.

PS--

10 gr Unique is the "universal load" which will usually produce very good accuracy
with most cast or jacketed bullets in any cartridge that it is a safe load from a
pressure standpoint. This is from about 41 mag up to pretty much any of the
large bottleneck 20th century milsurp cartridges and most of the big bore straight
BP cartridges. You will likely find it to work very well, or you may need to bump it up
or down a few grains to find the best accy. For many 20th century milsurp bottleneck
cartridges, 16.0gr of 2400 has also shown excellent results - again when it is safe,
which is nearly always - but please check for any of the smaller cases.

Please be sure that this load is safe in a particular cartridge if you deviate much from
the big cases, where it is a mild load.

Bill

[Boerrancher]

Not meaning to butt in on Bill's post in any way, I shoot the powder in a 3rd position as well. If it is a small amount in a large case as was discussed, I will put the firearm in the horizontal position and shake it to spread the powder out evenly across the side wall of the case. In this position with some position sensitive powders, it will burn almost all at once giving a quicker pressure peak and a change in velocity.

The way to prevent powder position sensitivity is with wadding stuffed into the case between the powder and the boolit. I do this anyway with all cast boolit loads as well as use an under the boolit card wad. My filler material of choice is toilet paper, some like dacron fiber. My affinity for a TP wad is that it is very absorbent, and on those hot Missouri days I don't want my lube running down and fouling my powder. The under the boolit card wad should prevent it, but if it gets by that there is the TP. If it is absorbed by the TP it will still lube to some extent when fired not nearly as well, but at leased there is some lube being laid down for the next shot. I always took the view that if my powder was always at the back of the case next to the primer, and always in the same position, it was just one less variable in the equation.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

Anyone got a rule of thumb on Red Dot versus Unique powder charges?

My rule of thumb is - Read the reloading manual for each & every charge that I want to load.

[lathesmith]

I think I like Jim's "rule of thumb" the best, as I would really like to keep both my thumbs (they do come in handy for other things besides cocking a revolver). That being said, Red Dot is a special favorite of mine; true, it may not be quite as versitile as Unique, but it's economical, seems a little cleaner, and is useable in a wide range of both rifle and pistol loads.
lathesmith