S&W K38 strength

[chboats]

I have an older K38, pre-model numbers, in excellent condition. I mostly shoot light target load but would like to shoot some +P loads. Will the K38 hold up to a steady diet of the heavier loads. I don't want to do anything that will damage the gun.

Thanks
Carl

[TenTea]

Pre 14 & 15 Masterpieces were not designed for +P.

Will the gun be damaged by a *steady diet* of hot loads?
Probably not, but maybe...why abuse that sweet old steel?
Find a revolver rated for +P.

*the above is my opinion, fwiw

[BK7saum]

While it probably would be just fine, there isn't much difference in standard .38 spcl and .38 spcl +P. I'd just stick with a higher end standard level load if it were mine.

[TCFAN]

If that was my revolver I would stay with target wadcutters and enjoy that old classic S&W.If you want to shoot hotter loads then look at a 686 or a GP100. Just my opinion for what it is worth..........

[Outpost75]

While limited use of +P is not dangerous, it WILL loosen the gun more quickly. Pre-1957 K-frames have soft frames which are only about 90 Rockwell B scale. Firing +P will stretch the frame, increase cylinder gap and end play. The end shake can be corrected by stretching the crane, but cylinder gap will then be increased by the amount of end-shake eliminated. This can usually be done twice before barrel-cylinder gap increases above the S&W Customer Service maximum of pass 0.008" / hold 0.009".

If cylinder gap is already close to the maximum, correction will require setting the barrel back a thread and refitting the cylinder and yoke and recutting the forcing cone, about a $200 repair in most shops.

My advise is to limit any firing of your K38 to STANDARD pressure loads and that any use of +P should be limited to one box spread over the life of the gun, for emergency use only.

Otherwise you are turning a nice $600-700 gun into a $300 gun requiring $200 of gunsmithing work to bring it up to a $500 used gun.

[376Steyr]

"Don't do it. You'll regret it afterwards. Is it really worth it?" These words apply both to walking into a bar at 1 a.m. and shooting +P in a classic K38.

[tazman]

I own a pre 14 Target masterpiece and it performs well with target wadcutters and standard 38 special loads. For +P I use either a 357 mag or my late model 15.
I want my Target masterpiece to last forever.

[chboats]

Thanks for all of the advice. it is one of the bests shooters I have. Guess I will just keep it that way, besides if I need more power get a bigger gun

Thanks all. I'm glad I ask

Carl

[Walkingwolf]

Do you carry the K38? If not I see no reason to use +P. Even modern guns wear out, with standard ammo, it takes a massive amount of shooting to do it. Every gun has a working life, that life is shortened faster with hotter ammo, add in weaker steel, and it is shortened even more. In the 1930's Colt 38 revolvers were approved for 38/44 today equal to +P+, including the small police positive, BUT limited use only.

I was friends with a detective that still had boxes of factory 38/44, and he carried them in his model 36, but except for one shooting he only used them for carry. The use of hot ammo for practice is way overblown, IMO. In the 70's, and 80's we had much better accuracy compared to current LEO's(Sorry LEO's). Our training schedule was monthly 18 rounds carry ammo, 50 to 100 rounds qualification, plus rotating the ammo in the shotgun.

The detective that carried 38/44 in his J frame trained with wadcutters like the rest of us. He had no problem hitting the perp holding a knife to a nurse's neck with the two inch revolver. Remember your first shot is the most important, and all those recoil factors do not start until after the first shot.

My advice would be find a +P revolver with modern steel to train with hot ammo. A used Taurus is around $200 more or less. If you wear it out, so what? Sorry Taurus owners, no offense intended.

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks for your decision. I have a Colt Agent - it only sees wadcutter ammo, but even for carry that will do the job if necessary - if I need more than that I have no business being there.

[Petrol & Powder]

chboats - you've received good advice.
I have a K-38 and even though mine is a Model 14 (newer model than yours) I see no reason to abuse that fine gun.

[35remington]

Standard velocity handloads get quite adequate velocity. There is no real need for Plus p. For example, 4.7 grains Unique gets about 900 or a bit over with a 158 SWC in my 4 inch M and P, and 5.4 Power Pistol goes faster yet, both standard loads.

These will do any 38 task worth doing.

[MT Gianni]

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Another mans opinion. I believe 38 special was loaded as hot or hotter in the 70's than the current +p loads. I am of the opnion that rapid da shooting is much harder on the gun than slow fire of + p rounds.

[Outpost75]

When LAPD was buying Model 14s for street use with +P ammo in the 1970s frames and cylinders for contract orders specified heat treatment for frames and cylinders the same as for .357 Model 19s, Rc20 Min., with Rc22-24 desired.

[HangFireW8]

Indeed, modern +P 38 Special is barely above the pressure of standard 38 Specials, while old 38/44 is most of a 357Mag.

-HF

[chboats]

The only thing the gun is use for is killing paper targets and ringing the occasional steel plate. I have no need to shoot the hotter load in the K38. I do have a couple of 357s. Just wanted to know. It is easier to win the game if you know ALL the rules.

Thanks
Carl

[Char-Gar]

The 38 Special +P is an attempt to get a jacketed HP bullet expand in revolvers of various barrel lengths. If you are not trying to expand a JHP bullet, there no sense in running those pressures.

I favor the full charge wadcutter for social use against unfriendly human beings. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye over a solid base wadcutter will prove very effective. I prefer the H&G 244 which has a dead flat nose. I like flat and really flat just must be the best. because of the deep bullet seating, the pressures will run higher thought not in the +P range.

For small game and range use I drop the charge to 3.0 grains of Bullseye.

Here is a pick of my Chief Special with such loads. I use these same loads in small and medium frame 38 by Smith and Wesson and Colt in various barrel lengths. Works well in all.

Addendum: This same bullet in 357 Mag cases over either 10/2400 or 7.5/AA5 gives about 1,100 fps and is a cracker jack load for the 357 revolver, giving great accuracy along the way.

[Walkingwolf]

I carry wadcutters for primary, SWC in the speed loaders. Mine are on the hot side though, 900 fps 138 grain 5.5 grain longshot in a 2 inch revolver. In the GP100 4" with 6.0 grains longshot they are cooking at 1200 fps. They are Bayou Bullets coated wadcutters to avoid leading. These are carry only, of course I had to shoot them for development.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've been playing with the 38 Special for a loooooong time. This forum has expanded my knowledge about the cartridge but most of what I've learned has simply added to the foundation of knowledge I already had. It has been positive but not earthshattering.

The SAAMI limits for 38 Special are 17K psi for standard 38 Special and 20K for +P. To put that in perspective, the limit for .357 mag is 45K. Source : http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI%20_CFPandR.pdf

Char-gar's H&G 244 is basically a H&G 50 with a totally flat nose. I'm not sure if there's a huge difference between the #50 and the #244 at short range but I'm convinced that a solid WC is a VERY useful bullet in a 38 Special when driven between 800-900 fps. A soft lead, full wadcutter weighing 150ish? grains, driven at 800-900 fps; is an incredibly useful load. The SWC and flat point round nose bullets have an advantage at longer ranges due to their better aerodynamics but seriously folks, outside of a shooting match; is that critical? The SWC and roundnose bullets are a bit more speedloader friendly but that's not a deal breaker.
People have been trying to hotrod the 38 Special for decades and for the life of me, I cannot understand the pursuit. It works amazingly well as is.

The 38 Special does a lot of things really well. There are cartridges that exceed portions of its capability but none that exceed it overall.

I have an old hammer that my father received from the disbursement of an estate. There's nothing spectacular about it. It's just an old, non descript, unknown make hammer. It's my favorite hammer because it's balanced perfectly, weighs what it should and fits my hand. It's the 38 Special of hammers.
When you find what works - STOP LOOKING !

The K-38 is an amazing revolver. You don't need to hotrod it. It works just fine with some 148-158 grain, lead projectile driven at standard 38 Special pressures.

[Drm50]

I have a couple pre 14 k38s and several newer ones 14 no dashes, got 2 m15s. I only shoot target loads in 14s and standard 38sp in 15s, all cast hand loads. That's what they were built for.
I have never ruined a S&W, but when I was young and dumb I shot a brand new Diamondback
loose in one summer. I got a deal on a case of +P, I had been shooting standard lead 158 factories. I really liked that gun, I don't like 4" barrels but it fit me perfect and I could shoot it
as well as my m14. The +P shot well, but before I got through the case the gun was loose. Took
it to smith who told me I should have better sense that beat up a light 38 with hot ammo. He
fixed the slop in cylinder with end bushings and even had to put some accraglass on back of grips. Even the m19 and Python will not hold up to firing hundreds of full power mags. These
revolvers are precision built, they will last a long time if you don't abuse them. If you need the
extra power buy a Ruger or a N frame S&W in 357mg.

[Bill*B]

One of my regrets is that I warped the crane of a fine K38 Combat Masterpiece with heavy loads. Wish I had stuck to standard pressure loadings.

[waco]

The 38 Special +P is an attempt to get a jacketed HP bullet expand in revolvers of various barrel lengths. If you are not trying to expand a JHP bullet, there no sense in running those pressures.

I favor the full charge wadcutter for social use against unfriendly human beings. A charge of 3.5 grains of Bullseye over a solid base wadcutter will prove very effective. I prefer the H&G 244 which has a dead flat nose. I like flat and really flat just must be the best. because of the deep bullet seating, the pressures will run higher thought not in the +P range.

For small game and range use I drop the charge to 3.0 grains of Bullseye.

Here is a pick of my Chief Special with such loads. I use these same loads in small and medium frame 38 by Smith and Wesson and Colt in various barrel lengths. Works well in all.

Addendum: This same bullet in 357 Mag cases over either 10/2400 or 7.5/AA5 gives about 1,100 fps and is a cracker jack load for the 357 revolver, giving great accuracy along the way.
I would agree with, and listen to Charles.

[44man]

The K is a classic. It does what it does without abuse. I have never seen a frame stretch, never seen a weak S&W. Wear without lube---Yes. front bushing dry and stretch must be the answer.
I have had cranes bent from TV slamming the cylinders shut. DON'T.
But I can't see a K harmed by +P.

[dubber123]

The K is a classic. It does what it does without abuse. I have never seen a frame stretch, never seen a weak S&W. Wear without lube---Yes. front bushing dry and stretch must be the answer.
I have had cranes bent from TV slamming the cylinders shut. DON'T.
But I can't see a K harmed by +P.

Me either actually, and I have a few. I am surprised by all the reports of damaged ones, I have run some hard for a lot of rounds, and can't make it happen. I lube the **** out of my guns though.

[35remington]

Well, there is Plus P and then there is PLUS P. Anyone who has seen the Speer #8 knows the difference. Speer#8 type loads will jack up a medium frame revolver, especially older ones, in reasonably short order.

As I said, handloaded standard pressure 38 is ample for most uses and can drive a 158 at 950 fps from a 4 inch. Not much more is really needed for most uses to which a 38 revolver is put.

[tazman]

Well, there is Plus P and then there is PLUS P. Anyone who has seen the Speer #8 knows the difference. Speer#8 type loads will jack up a medium frame revolver, especially older ones, in reasonably short order.

As I said, handloaded standard pressure 38 is ample for most uses and can drive a 158 at 950 fps from a 4 inch. Not much more is really needed for most uses to which a 38 revolver is put.

I have to agree. If I need more than what a 38 Special will do with a standard load, I am going to be using magnum loads anyway, or at least a larger handgun/caliber.
I remember the old Speer manual and how hot some of those loads were. I got rid of it for that reason.

[Drm50]

I have seen more J frames ruined with +P, than K frames. Especially the older light weight models. All in all I have seen more damage to guns with factory +P, than caused by handloading
mistakes. If you stick with intended ammo a S&W will last forever. If you want a SD load for your
M14 just buy a box of top shelf hollow points. I don't know how many S&Ws I have owned but
I have 50+ at present time. I still have ones bought new in 60s and several bought used in 60s.
From 22s to 44mags they have been the most trouble free and accurate revolvers I have owned.
Back in 70s I dabbled in Colts but went back to S&W, now even in S&Ws I only look for the older
models that were P&R with 3Ts.

[Outpost75]

Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.

Police experience with the S&W M19 .357 revolver was that as long as .38 Special standard pressure ammo was used for practice and qualification, and +P or .357 used only for limited duty use, in a 5:1 ratio, that the guns held up, BUT once training and doctrine changed such that law enforcement officers trained and qualified with the duty ammo they carried, the Model 19, even with annual maintenance, would fail prematurely.

THAT is why S&W came up with the "L" frame.

Do your own Rockwell hardness tests on your K38 frame. If you find that the frame will not even register on the Rockwell "C" scale, therein lies the clue and you should not shoot +P in it. Period.

If your S&W Model 15 or 19 frame does not register Rc24 Min. I wouldn't count on it lasting very long with .357 magnum or .38 Special +P+ LE loads such as Q4070, and even at that, it will be less durable than a Colt Trooper, S&W 28, Ruger, etc.

FWIW my Ruger Service Six I built at the Armorer's School when attending there in 1985 tested Rc40. I kept a logbook on it and when I sent it back to the factory for refurb when notified that they were using up the last remaining parts in Customer Service, this was back in 2002, the revolver had logged over 100,000 .38 Special loads, most of those being standard pressure lead loads, and perhaps 1000 Q4070 +P+ during the life of the gun until then. This was a .38 Special.

After 100,00 rounds they fitted a new "long" cylinder to take up the 0.003" end-shake which had developed, replaced the pawl and bolt and reblued it. This is the DA test target which came back with it.
They also returned it with the whacked coppers used to verify striker indent, 0.012"! which is about 0.002" more than your average S&W .38 does, and meets the military spec for the 9mm M9 pistol.

194470

[Char-Gar]

Anecdote: The first S&W Combat Magnum (later Model 19) I ever saw came out of the holster of Bill Jordon out on the Rio Grande River. He and another Border Patrolman rolled up on me while I was launching rounds into the river bank on the Mexican side of the river. He joined in the plinking. He took his Combat Magnum out of his holster, unloaded the hot loaded cast HP rounds and filled it with 38 Special wadcutter target loads from his Jeep. He fired very few 357 Magnum loads through his revolver.

I got to shoot his revolver that afternoon long years ago albeit with wadcutter target loads.

Addendum: I am not a science/engineering type guy like Outpost and don't know Rockwell hardness from a hole in the ground, but I have seen several bushel baskets full of Smith and Wesson 38/357 J and K frames that were shot loose with high pressure loads.

I still use standard pressure loads in my J and K frames for general shooting. I will stuff some hotter loads in there for social purposes, but I only shoot enough of those to verify point of impact. I do shoot some low end 357 Magnum loads through a Ruger OM Blackhawk and that fine revolver seems to be everlasting.

[Wayne Dobbs]

That must've been one of life's great moments, Char-Gar! To plink the Rio Grande Mexican bank with Bill Jordan and HIS Combat Magnum! I met him several times late in his life and truly enjoyed that, but wish I had been able to shoot with him.

[Char-Gar]

That must've been one of life's great moments, Char-Gar! To plink the Rio Grande Mexican bank with Bill Jordan and HIS Combat Magnum! I met him several times late in his life and truly enjoyed that, but wish I had been able to shoot with him.

I was only about 17 and too stupid to appreciate the circumstances. I knew who he was, but that is about all. At that time, I was also shooting allot of Skeet and Bill shot at the same place and we were on the same squad several times. In fact we were in the same squad when I shot my first 25 score.

[fecmech]

Air Force experience with the M15 .38 Special K-frame revolver firing the PGU/12B 130-grain FMJ +P load was that the guns didn't last long at all.
I wasn't aware that those 130 gr. loads were made in +P. When I was on a Guard pistol team we were occasionally give some M41 ball ammo to play with. That stuff was really junk. A little over 700 fps with a 130 gr bullet out of my model 14 and 4-5" 50 yd groups. About the only thing it was good for was plinking tin cans.

[Outpost75]

From the Wikipedia entry:

194555

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#cite_note-autogenerated68-19) Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#cite_note-autogenerated68-19) The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

[376Steyr]

Did the USAF +P ammo have crimped-in primers too? I kind of recall finding a few pieces of fired military .38 brass with primer crimps over the years, and wondering why somebody had felt it necessary to put a crimp on revolver loads.

[Outpost75]

Yes, mine has crimped primers and LC79 headstamp.

[fecmech]

My M41 WCC 74 cases were uncrimped and have been excellent for reloading. I start5ed with over 2K but am down now to about 800.

[5.7 MAN]

From the Wikipedia entry:

194555

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#cite_note-autogenerated68-19) Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#cite_note-autogenerated68-19) The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

I picked up a couple of boxes of this ammo a few years back to go with my model 15, I can post some pics later. I carried it daily in the AF and when we qualified you could tell it was definitely hotter. I fired a few in my 4" model 15 and they ran right around 950 FPS.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just thought I`d drop this news gem on the site. An online gun auction ended last night. A S&W 14 - 3 with Pachmyer grips went for $450 plus auction commision fee. It looked to be in very nice condition with good blueing.Robert