H&R 1871 Throat Reaming

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I just scored a nice deal on a Buffalo Classic to add to my collection. I plan on using longer and heavier bullets with it and throat is cut too short if any exists at all. Does anyone have experience with reaming the throat a little bit forward to accommodate the 535gr pills?

Is this more of a gunsmith's job or can one do it by themselves?

shoe

[wgr]

I got a reamer over at graybeards outdoor sight had my smith do it took him about 15min. I can load a 535gr boolit with ease

[three50seven]

Interesting, I have a late production H&R Handi in 45/70 and have loaded up to 600gr boolits with no issues. They must have changed how they cut the throats at some point.

Sent from my LGLS775 using Tapatalk

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I got a reamer over at graybeards outdoor sight had my smith do it took him about 15min. I can load a 535gr boolit with ease

They seem to have a great selection of reamers to rent. I'll check it out. Have you had any problems with the shallow rifling? I have never seen grooves that that in a barrel.


Interesting, I have a late production H&R Handi in 45/70 and have loaded up to 600gr boolits with no issues. They must have changed how they cut the throats at some point.

Sent from my LGLS775 using Tapatalk

I don't know when mine was produced but I'll probably load some Postells tonight and see what happens.

[Skipper]

Shoe, I throated my Buffalo Classic and my regular .45-70 an additional .240" using the 4D reamer. You can do it yourself...takes about 10 minutes. Just dip the throater in cutting oil and go slow. You can turn it by hand using a tap stock; you might need a reamer extension.

https://4drentals.com/products/reamer-rentals/throater/

They waive the deposit if you use a credit card.

[mohican]

I got a reamer over at graybeards outdoor sight had my smith do it took him about 15min. I can load a 535gr boolit with ease How does said 535 grain boolit shoot in the Buffalo Classic?

[Skipper]

How does said 535 grain boolit shoot in the Buffalo Classic?

Using 20:1 and sized .459-.460, it shoots great with black or 4759 if the throat is extended.

[Don McDowell]

You might want to measure the twist in that barrel. If it's a 20 in twist, 500 gr bullets will be about as heavy as you can count on stabilizing consistently.
the 45-70 sort of runs short of horsepower when going heavier than the various 535 gr bullets, and the recoil in that BC with the postel's isn't exactly pleasant.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

You might want to measure the twist in that barrel. If it's a 20 in twist, 500 gr bullets will be about as heavy as you can count on stabilizing consistently.
the 45-70 sort of runs short of horsepower when going heavier than the various 535 gr bullets, and the recoil in that BC with the postel's isn't exactly pleasant.

That was definitely something I was thinking about as well. It's a 1:20 and it's stabilizing the 475gr quite well. My Postells are dropping in at 515gr with Lyman #2 (the cheapest alloy I can get). These should work but they may be at the limit like you said and with have significant recoil.
I contacted a few smiths in IL and a lot of them seem to have less machining experience than I do. I run a greater risk ruining the barrel's accuracy changing the chamber I think.

I may just stick feeding the Postells to my 1:14 Encore. It's a heavier gun and likely more conducive to bench shooting.

shoe

[Don McDowell]

I haven't really seen a 535 gr bullet do anything out of a 45-70 that a 480 gr won't.

[John Boy]

How does said 535 grain boolit shoot in the Buffalo Classic? With 70gr FFg powder, accuracy is very good to 1000yds
The Classic being my 1st BPCR and being green & wet behind the ears - it's initial range test with the 500gr Big Lube bullet, 52gr of Triple Seven - put 5 holes in the 7 ring at 600yds ... measured 2 3/4 x 3 1/2" with 3 holes that could be covered with a silver dollar. Two club members witnessed the target

[EDG]

You don't need to do anything to shoot heavy bullets in your H&R. The typical long nose BPCR bullet will extend way into the rifling. That is because the land diameter is larger than the diameter than the nose of the bullet.

If you have one of those lever gun 500 grain bullet molds like the RCBS 600 you will find it will not work unless deep seated. But no one uses that bullet except lever gun shooters since they cannot use a long nose bullet anyway. The nose is intentionally short to feed through the magazine.

194265

Instead of the lever gun style bullets use the BPCR bullet styles designed for single shot rifles. The nose is about .499 and will fit into the land diameter.
Cutting the throat is unnecessary.

194266

[iplaywithnoshoes]

You don't need to do anything to shoot heavy bullets in your H&R. The typical long nose BPCR bullet will extend way into the rifling. That is because the land diameter is larger than the diameter than the nose of the bullet.

If you have one of those lever gun 500 grain bullet molds like the RCBS 600 you will find it will not work unless deep seated. But no one uses that bullet except lever gun shooters since they cannot use a long nose bullet anyway. The nose is intentionally short to feed through the magazine.

194265

Instead of the lever gun style bullets use the BPCR bullet styles designed for single shot rifles. The nose is about .499 and will fit into the land diameter.
Cutting the throat is unnecessary.

194266

EDG,

Agreed, with 500gr flat nosed like you mentioned, smokeless powder loads work quite well through this throat because the ogives are very similar to a 405gr flat nose and powder capacity is not an issue. I will check with my Lyman Postell mold to see if that's what if the nose on my mold is small enough like you said. I know that my 459-500-3R, which is not authentic BPCR at all, does work but only because it has a short, pointy nose. Do you typically allow for some jump or is jamming a little on the lands okay with cast bullets?

shoe

[EDG]

Your Postell is designed to seat the bullet long with the nose acting as a bore rider..

I never jump anything with cast bullets in single shots.
I expand my cases using an expander the same diameter of the bullet. The only neck grip I get is from the spring back of the brass.
I seat my bullets about .050 too long to close the breech. Then I am able to push the case home with my thumb and close the breech block.
Thumb force is the amount of jamming that my bullets get when seated into the rifling.


EDG,

Agreed, with 500gr flat nosed like you mentioned, smokeless powder loads work quite well through this throat because the ogives are very similar to a 405gr flat nose and powder capacity is not an issue. I will check with my Lyman Postell mold to see if that's what if the nose on my mold is small enough like you said. I know that my 459-500-3R, which is not authentic BPCR at all, does work but only because it has a short, pointy nose. Do you typically allow for some jump or is jamming a little on the lands okay with cast bullets?

shoe

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Your Postell is designed to seat the bullet long with the nose acting as a bore rider..

I never jump anything with cast bullets in single shots.
I expand my cases using an expander the same diameter of the bullet. The only neck grip I get is from the spring back of the brass.
I seat my bullets about .050 too long to close the breech. Then I am able to push the case home with my thumb and close the breech block.
Thumb force is the amount of jamming that my bullets get when seated into the rifling.

Good to know! I just checked yesterday and the round actually fit with full length brass! I'll give a couple of these a try with your method and see what happens! Are you doing this with black or smokeless?

shoe

[EDG]

I use smokeless at BP velocities. My loads run 1100 to 1300 fps using SR4759


Good to know! I just checked yesterday and the round actually fit with full length brass! I'll give a couple of these a try with your method and see what happens! Are you doing this with black or smokeless?

shoe

[rfd]

everyone has a their own personal, diff'rent version story about guns like the buff classic. i've had 2 of 'em (or was it 3?), also my first intro to bpcr and what started a long journey that has led to only loading and shooting black powder in all my long guns.

the h&r bc is a good gun, with good accuracy potential that's slightly stymied by a hefty trigger pull and concerns with installing a tang sight on a break open, two plane action. other than that, and adding some more weight into the butt stock, for the most part it's a shooter that some folks laugh at 'til it beats them at the target butts. ;)

you'll have no problem loading, chambering, and having the 1:20 twist stabilizing a lyman postel. forget about using white powder, use real black powder dropped into fire formed brass (swiss 1-1/2f, oe 1-1/2f are well proven powders). if long distance is yer game then you'll want that long and heavy bullet, so forget the lightweights under 500 grains. there are other factors and concerns with the bc and long distance bpcr in general. you may want to consider ppb's - wish i did from the get-go - SO much better for me (and others!) than the greasers. whatever goes down best for ya, do enjoy the bpcr ride! :)

[Skipper]

One more thing...it helps to smear a little lube on the bore-ride section of the bullet if you're using the 535. Without it, I get some leading at the 28" mark.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I use smokeless at BP velocities. My loads run 1100 to 1300 fps using SR4759

I'll try to get a hold of some to try. Since I want to neck size only slightly, with compressed charges, this seating method sounds like a good option.


everyone has a their own personal, diff'rent version story about guns like the buff classic. i've had 2 of 'em (or was it 3?), also my first intro to bpcr and what started a long journey that has led to only loading and shooting black powder in all my long guns.

the h&r bc is a good gun, with good accuracy potential that's slightly stymied by a hefty trigger pull and concerns with installing a tang sight on a break open, two plane action. other than that, and adding some more weight into the butt stock, for the most part it's a shooter that some folks laugh at 'til it beats them at the target butts. ;)

you'll have no problem loading, chambering, and having the 1:20 twist stabilizing a lyman postel. forget about using white powder, use real black powder dropped into fire formed brass (swiss 1-1/2f, oe 1-1/2f are well proven powders). if long distance is yer game then you'll want that long and heavy bullet, so forget the lightweights under 500 grains. there are other factors and concerns with the bc and long distance bpcr in general. you may want to consider ppb's - wish i did from the get-go - SO much better for me (and others!) than the greasers. whatever goes down best for ya, do enjoy the bpcr ride! :)

I was going to say, I was floored by the gun's initial accuracy with some 405gr Trail Boss loads. I can't wait to start with holy black. I'll need to add a little weight first like you said, as well as contour the buttstock a bit. The skinner sight I have on the back should do fine for now, perhaps I may install a tang sight if I find one for the right price. As for the trigger, I got so used to sloppy and heavy triggers that pull weight and takeup doesn't matter to me anymore. :)

As for paper patching, I'll need to find some time to perfect the technique. I know it's really finicky to get into right away.


One more thing...it helps to smear a little lube on the bore-ride section of the bullet if you're using the 535. Without it, I get some leading at the 28" mark.

I was thinking if giving this a try as well, since I get a bit of leading in the throat of my Encore with Postells. If I start with a lightly oiled bore and light loads, I'm usually able to keep leading at bay temporarily for heavier stuff.

[EDG]

SR4759 has been discontinued so finding it can be a problem. 5744 is a good alternate.


I'll try to get a hold of some to try. Since I want to neck size only slightly, with compressed charges, this seating method sounds like a good option.



I was going to say, I was floored by the gun's initial accuracy with some 405gr Trail Boss loads. I can't wait to start with holy black. I'll need to add a little weight first like you said, as well as contour the buttstock a bit. The skinner sight I have on the back should do fine for now, perhaps I may install a tang sight if I find one for the right price. As for the trigger, I got so used to sloppy and heavy triggers that pull weight and takeup doesn't matter to me anymore. :)

As for paper patching, I'll need to find some time to perfect the technique. I know it's really finicky to get into right away.



I was thinking if giving this a try as well, since I get a bit of leading in the throat of my Encore with Postells. If I start with a lightly oiled bore and light loads, I'm usually able to keep leading at bay temporarily for heavier stuff.

[rfd]

aa5744 is excellent for these bp guns, and was designed with them in mind. i've used sr4759 and in comparison found that aa5744 was just more consistent, for me. just don't use any fillers or wads, bad juju if ya do.

the holy black is still a strong consideration. it will allow the use of fire formed brass and little to no press dies (maybe a powder compress die and maybe a slight neck taper die, at best), making loading faster and easier, and brass that can almost last forever and no to little annealing required. it's actually a safer powder, with much lowered chamber pressures - made for these gun designs. yes, fouling control will be needed during shooting, as well as reasonably timely cleanup after shooting of both the gun and brass. not at all as complicated or time consuming as some declare. do give black a good trial.

[EDG]

I have data from Lyman for both 45-70 and 40-65 using various powders including BP, SR4759, 5744, 4227, 4198, 3031, and others all at the same operating pressures.
I have found that SR4759 worked best when the charge was increased until there were no unburned grains left in the bore.
There is nothing about many of the designs, other than old inferior steels, that make them design black powder specific. For example the Browning 1885 action has also been chambered in high pressure belted magnums.
When shooting smokeless with cast bullets lubed with Alox you have a combo that is a lot like shooting a very large .22 LR. There is not much need to clean anything right away.



aa5744 is excellent for these bp guns, and was designed with them in mind. i've used sr4759 and in comparison found that aa5744 was just more consistent, for me. just don't use any fillers or wads, bad juju if ya do.

the holy black is still a strong consideration. it will allow the use of fire formed brass and little to no press dies (maybe a powder compress die and maybe a slight neck taper die, at best), making loading faster and easier, and brass that can almost last forever and no to little annealing required. it's actually a safer powder, with much lowered chamber pressures - made for these gun designs. yes, fouling control will be needed during shooting, as well as reasonably timely cleanup after shooting of both the gun and brass. not at all as complicated or time consuming as some declare. do give black a good trial.

[rfd]

the old designs were made for black powder because that was the only viable gunpowder of the day. the modern replicas of today are better steel and can handle smokeless powders. white powders, particularly the double based kind, still require careful load recipes with care for powder charges and wads/fillers, and cartridge OAL. black powder has one essential caveat - no viable airspace.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I have tried 5744 numerous times and mostly get unburnt kernels and leading. Perhaps I need to do more development with it to get it work. IMR3031 gives me the same problems Previous experience has told me this so far:

Fast burning nitro powders such as Unique and Trailboss paired with 405gr cast gave me my tightest groups so far.

Followed closely behind with equal accuracy are my duplex loads (H50BMG + IMR4198) with 405 gr

Close to that, I use psuedo-BP loads of Blackhorn 209 under 480-520gr bullets.

I do not have the same success with medium burn rate smokeless powders and airspace, not at the pressures I am working with (20,000CUP)

My goal with loading .45-70 is this:

1. Create loads that require no crimp, and therefore seldom need trimming of brass (I'm finding that trim length inconsistency doesn't show up on target necessarily.)
2. Have loads with minimal neck sizing or cold working of the brass, with the most strain happening during case flaring only.
3. Create loads with a SD of no more than 7 fps.
4. Use boolits dropped straight from the mold then lubed, .001-.003" above bore diameter.

It's sounding like straight BP has a lot of appeal from a loading speed and case life standpoint but requires careful cleaning of the entire gun and brass each session.

[rfd]

aa5744 specifies that there WILL be some unburnt powder kernals after ignition. aa5744 is one of the most used long range winning white powders, and for good reason.

[EDG]

Not true at all.
Many BP shooters like to believe and preach that because of their bias but for the most part they have not done their homework.
I shoot very accurate smokeless loads and there is not much special about the loading process.

You speak like control of the OAL is something that BP shooters do not practice. I can assure you that most BP shooters resort to far more rigmarole than I do. I simply dump the charge in the case and seat the bullet and then go shooting.
On the other hand you HAVE to use a powder charge that fills the case to stay safe. On top of that you cannot even shoot a long string without fouling building up in the bore. That NEVER happens to me.



white powders, particularly the double based kind, still require careful load recipes with care for powder charges and wads/fillers, and cartridge OAL.

[EDG]

Do your loads not have accuracy goals?
Let accuracy be your goal. Case life is excellent even if you have to size a little. I prefer a little bit of friction to keep the loads assembled during handling and transport.
Both 5744 and SR4759 produce much less unburned powder when the pressure is raised a grain or two over Lyman's data with 500 grain 45-70 bullets in long barrels.

The longer the barrel, the higher the pressure and the heavier the bullet will give you less unburned powder. If you try to shoot something like 3031 at low pressure you will wind up with a bore full of unburned grains.



I have tried 5744 numerous times and mostly get unburnt kernels and leading. Perhaps I need to do more development with it to get it work. IMR3031 gives me the same problems Previous experience has told me this so far:

Fast burning nitro powders such as Unique and Trailboss paired with 405gr cast gave me my tightest groups so far.

Followed closely behind with equal accuracy are my duplex loads (H50BMG + IMR4198) with 405 gr

Close to that, I use psuedo-BP loads of Blackhorn 209 under 480-520gr bullets.

I do not have the same success with medium burn rate smokeless powders and airspace, not at the pressures I am working with (20,000CUP)

My goal with loading .45-70 is this:

1. Create loads that require no crimp, and therefore seldom need trimming of brass (I'm finding that trim length inconsistency doesn't show up on target necessarily.)
2. Have loads with minimal neck sizing or cold working of the brass, with the most strain happening during case flaring only.
3. Create loads with a SD of no more than 7 fps.
4. Use boolits dropped straight from the mold then lubed, .001-.003" above bore diameter.

It's sounding like straight BP has a lot of appeal from a loading speed and case life standpoint but requires careful cleaning of the entire gun and brass each session.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Do your loads not have accuracy goals?
Let accuracy be your goal. Case life is excellent even if you have to size a little. I prefer a little bit of friction to keep the loads assembled during handling and transport.
Both 5744 and SR4759 produce much less unburned powder when the pressure is raised a grain or two over Lyman's data with 500 grain 45-70 bullets in long barrels.

The longer the barrel, the higher the pressure and the heavier the bullet will give you less unburned powder. If you try to shoot something like 3031 at low pressure you will wind up with a bore full of unburned grains.

Right, I should have put those there. I'm perfectly fine with an MOA-capable rifle. I know that my Buffalo Classic is on its way there with some more load development so if I keep my SD down to 5fps, then I would like to be able to hit a 10" gong at 600 yards consistently (9/10 shots) with moderate wind.
With .45-70, case life is probably not an issue at the pressures I'm at, but neck tension progression is probably the right idea I'm talking about. If neck tension increases after a few reloads, certain loads I have developed may go out the window since burn conditions are controlled largely by neck tension and throat engagement.
Since I don't want to buy an expensive annealing setup, I'm at a bit of a loss. I'll up the charges a bit then to clean up the bore trash. I'd love to get 5744 to work well since loads are light on powder compared to BH209, Black, and WC860. the 32" barrel should do the trick.

[rfd]

Not true at all.
Many BP shooters like to believe and preach that because of their bias but for the most part they have not done their homework.
I shoot very accurate smokeless loads and there is not much special about the loading process.

You speak like control of the OAL is something that BP shooters do not practice. I can assure you that most BP shooters resort to far more rigmarole than I do. I simply dump the charge in the case and seat the bullet and then go shooting.
On the other hand you HAVE to use a powder charge that fills the case to stay safe. On top of that you cannot even shoot a long string without fouling building up in the bore. That NEVER happens to me.

you totally missed my points, because with smokeless powder loads ...

1. it's too easy to double charge the brass - can't happen with bp
2. the charge range for smokeless is typically a narrow window that's way narrower when handgun powders are used for rifle cartridges - that doesn't exist with bp
3. there are typically higher pressures with smokeless because that's how it functions, from expanding gasses - bp is lots lower in chamber pressures, even though it's classed as an explosive
4. smokeless requires working the brass a good bit - not at all with bp
5. of course OAL does matter with both white and black powder cartridges, unless a bore rider ppb is used ;)

yep, there is more to do with bp cartridges - namely the fouling control and clean up for gun and brass. if that's a bother to anyone, stick with the heavenly white rather than the holy black. who cares? surely not me.

i have NO bias against white powders, and still use it for special circumstances, it really doesn't matter what powder flavor is used to load up a case. i've been successfully loading smokeless for over 50 years for rifle and handgun. i've only been new to bpcr's for about 10 years. :)

there is no debate in this matter, it's as fully subjective as it's all good ....

[EDG]

With SR4759 it is not possible to double charge a case using my most common loads. Plus I have the flexibility of using even lighter or heavier loads since a little air in the case is not going to hurt anything. Yes the charge window is narrower when you are aiming at a specific velocity. On the other hand your performance range is really narrow when using BP.
You do not have that much choice in velocity with a case full of BP and you cannot shoot it with significant air in the case.

With the loading data from Lyman and others cast bullets are shot at the same pressures with smokeless. I have data as low as 8200 CUP with Varget and 8900 with SR4759.

Smokeless does not require working the brass but seating bullets in your brass so it will stay assembled does. Schuetzen shooters use a single case and breech seat bullets with both types of powder and may shoot the same case fifty or a hundred times. That argument is used because so many BPCR shooters shoot single shots. You would not really do that with an 1886 Winchester because your ammo will come apart when you load the rifle.

The reality is many BP shooters have worked for years justifying their powder as better when a lot of them do not have much practical knowledge of the other powder. You can tell they only associate with their own kind because they perpetuate the same old mistaken notions.


you totally missed my points, because with smokeless powder loads ...

1. it's too easy to double charge the brass - can't happen with bp
2. the charge range for smokeless is typically a narrow window that's way narrower when handgun powders are used for rifle cartridges - that doesn't exist with bp
3. there are typically higher pressures with smokeless because that's how it functions, from expanding gasses - bp is lots lower in chamber pressures, even though it's classed as an explosive
4. smokeless requires working the brass a good bit - not at all with bp
5. of course OAL does matter with both white and black powder cartridges, unless a bore rider ppb is used ;)

yep, there is more to do with bp cartridges - namely the fouling control and clean up for gun and brass. if that's a bother to anyone, stick with the heavenly white rather than the holy black. who cares? surely not me.

i have NO bias against white powders, and still use it for special circumstances, it really doesn't matter what powder flavor is used to load up a case. i've been successfully loading smokeless for over 50 years for rifle and handgun. i've only been new to bpcr's for about 10 years. :)

there is no debate in this matter, it's as fully subjective as it's all good ....

[daddski]

Have any of you seen a handi buffalo with a 45/110 bore? Just curious I have one that was made into the 110 by a local gunsmith. Its a great shooter but man does she kick lol. I was thinking of selling it so I can get a sharps that I've been looking for for some time now but it's a great rifle. I came here because of the question. Mine shoots 540 grain and I use only bp of course so I guess i'm one of those people lol.... I do have a question I was told it would still take the original 45/70 fine but I don't see how? Would the bore not cause the bullet to wobble at ignition?

[Wayne Smith]

Shoes, eventually you will want to anneal the necks of your cases. You don't need anything you probably don't already have. Get your lead pot up to about 700 degrees, take a fired case and hold the neck in the lead until the rim is too hot to hold comfortably. Do a slow count while you do this. Grap a set of pliers or other holders and do the rest of the cases to the same count. Yes, it takes time, but costs nothing. Don't decap the cases first.

[Dan Cash]

Have any of you seen a handi buffalo with a 45/110 bore? Just curious I have one that was made into the 110 by a local gunsmith. Its a great shooter but man does she kick lol. I was thinking of selling it so I can get a sharps that I've been looking for for some time now but it's a great rifle. I came here because of the question. Mine shoots 540 grain and I use only bp of course so I guess i'm one of those people lol.... I do have a question I was told it would still take the original 45/70 fine but I don't see how? Would the bore not cause the bullet to wobble at ignition?

Yes, the .45-70 bullet will wobble badly upon firing, accuracy will be less than desired and leading is likely to be spectacular.

[country gent]

The 45-70 is 2.1" case length the 110 is 2.6" case length so the bullet is having to jump .500 before the rifling even starts to engage it. This isn't throat but "extra" chamber .020 bigger than the bullet then comes any throat length on top of this. So yes there will be some misalighnment and wobble there. I would expect lead rings in the chamber doing this ( or paper if Paper Patched is used) along with some skidding intop the throat and rifling.