bore wiper VFG felt wads ...

[rfd]

... how are you folks cleaning them?

[Don McDowell]

Pre soak them in oxy clean, rinse , then when you're thru cleaning cases, leave the media out of the tumbler , toss them in with some mild detergent and water, run the tumbler for about 20 minutes rinse and let them dry.

[Gunlaker]

In Phoenix I asked Dave Gullo how he cleans his. He puts them in a "delicate bag" and runs them in the washing machine on cold so they don't shrink. I imagine that he gives them a good rinse first though.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I'm going to try your technique Don. It'll give me something to do with my tumbler. I've always wanted to see if it was any good for cleaning patches. I'm going to try my new .40 cal wipers tomorrow.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I have put them in a small dainties bag and ran them in the tumbler, but didn't really see any difference in running them without the bag.

[Don McDowell]

Chris one other thing we're finding with the 40 cal set up, running a patch smaller than 2 inches is working well. Carol ran just one button yesterday , and that worked quite well with the .396 diameter money bullet wrapped in seth cole.

[Chill Wills]

Don, It looked like a lot of people were trying them yesterday. I had my home made set with me. After the match, Cody and I were going to shoot a few dozen PP test rounds and wipe with them. After shooting Five relays and the fighting the hard winds, the thought shooting test rounds was the last thing on my mind. So, I might get to them tomorrow if I can take the morning off and shoot.193401This is a picture of some of the early ones I have made. Working out the details. Starting out with too much and removing what is not needed. I think two felts are one more than needed. I follow up with a dry patch (PP bullets) and a damp patch for GG bullets.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don. I will try them out in one of the PP rifles too. I'm curious to run some known loads over the chonograph with the wipers to see if they are more or less consistent than my current wiping routine.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Yessir that was quite a work out yesterday in that wind.It was pretty interesting with what seemed like a constant wind , all the little switches it would pull. Felt bad for Gary during his ram relay, saw it switch or die on him just about the time he broke every shot. I'm thinking you're right shooting Swiss or Eynsford 2 might be 1 to many.
Chris it will be interesting to see what your chronograph tests say. Zack was testing Mpro-7 and oil/water, and one day one would give tighter groups the next it was the other way around.

[Chill Wills]

I meant to post above that I have been using the tumbler to clean the felt after load tests. Just some detergent, water in the empty drum (no ceramic) and loose felt. I think they come out clean enough but I doubt they will ever look clean and white again.

So far I have avoided putting them in our laundry washing machine due to trace Pb concerns. Maybe nothing but my wife like to keep it out in my shop.

[Gunlaker]

That's a good point Michael. I try to make very sure that my shooting hobby doesn't cause trouble in our household. So far I avoid the kitchen and laundry areas :-)

Chris.

[rfd]

don, thanx for passing on the oxy clean info - a bit of it into cool water and in a tumbler, and by golly a mess of wads that were just black sooted filthy ugly turned out almost like new ...

http://i.imgur.com/ZC8TOZm.jpg

[Chill Wills]

Wow. Those are almost white clean. My felt plugs may never pass that test!
I don't know about the product oxy clean except Dave Gullo has it. I will look into it.

I am not sure that it is necessary to return the felts to white, but they do look good.

I was thinking cool H2O and Woolite might be worth a try.

Oxyclean - Laundry Detergent- got it.

[rfd]

all i can say is that oxy clean powder is stupid cheap and i ain't gonna argue with what i'm calling a success. :)

[Don McDowell]

Michael, you can get that Oxyclean at about any grocery store or Walmart etc. It used to come in a nice handy little bucket, but now it's in a cardboard box.

[rfd]

got mine at the acme supermart for $3.50 in a 1.3# plastic container with measuring spoon. i only needed a sprinkle to clean 44 felt wads. oxy clean is sold pretty much everywhere, save for the back country ranches.

[Chill Wills]

Michael, you can get that Oxyclean at about any grocery store or Walmart etc. It used to come in a nice handy little bucket, but now it's in a cardboard box.

Maybe I am mistaking that product for some other Dave supplies. I guess that is a product (Oxyclean) we never used around the house and I just don't know about it. Always learning.
BTW- OT- how was it you were shooting a rifle with only barrel sights Saturday? Man. It was hard enough in that wind as it was.

[Don McDowell]

I had a wild hair... Things started looking bleak when he hit the wind about half way down, and it kept getting stronger.. By the time the match started I was hoping you were going to tell me Eron had sent my hepburn with you. LOL... It was a hoot anyway, especially when that ram went over. Have to rethink the front sight, need to start with a fresh blade and get it regulated for the chickens and then figure out where to set the slide for the rest of them. Seeing the animals wasn't a big problem , just trying to figure where to hold for the wind was the challenge.

[BrentD]

I put the felts on my bore gophers but I don't feel the need to clean them - ever really. I just rinse them once or twice after the match and let them dry. BP fouling is super water soluble so getting the fouling out is simple with just plain water at the hydrant behind the firing line. Takes less than 2 minutes. Sometimes you guys can make this way too much work. :)

[Lead pot]

I recycle my wiping patches not for economy but they just work better after they get washed. Some come out of the wash machine a little gray but I don't think the barrel knows any difference :D

[Chill Wills]

Brent - that is why I don't think I will be winning any 'make them look new again' felt contests.
However, some kind of simple clean and dry cycle of some type when I get home is likely for me.

[Gunlaker]

Yessir that was quite a work out yesterday in that wind.It was pretty interesting with what seemed like a constant wind , all the little switches it would pull. Felt bad for Gary during his ram relay, saw it switch or die on him just about the time he broke every shot. I'm thinking you're right shooting Swiss or Eynsford 2 might be 1 to many.
Chris it will be interesting to see what your chronograph tests say. Zack was testing Mpro-7 and oil/water, and one day one would give tighter groups the next it was the other way around.

Don unfortunately I was unable to do the test. It turns out that I have .45 cal squeegies with my .40 cal felts so they didn't fit in the bore. Fortunately I had plenty of patches for wiping, and still managed to get 140 rounds off in two days of testing from 200m to 800m.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Those squeegees fit so tight that if I get the 45's mixed with the 44's, they won't fit either.

[Chill Wills]

Those squeegees fit so tight that if I get the 45's mixed with the 44's, they won't fit either.

Yes. Thousands (of an inch) count when turning the 'O' ring hub.

With some luck I will try mine again tomorrow and test some PP loads while I am at it. Then I will have Felts to clean, .....again.

Maybe I will just rinse them out.:p

[Don McDowell]

Sounds like fun to me. Going to shoot some 22 tomorrow if the weather cooperates.
Found 2 boxes of 44-77's I need to get emptied up so I can load for the upcoming month. May is going to go thru a lot of paper patch.

[Toymaker]

Unimpressed, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. As a gift I got the Buffalo Arms setup for 38 caliber. I wanted to try them with my 1885 High Wall in 38-55.

BEFORE going to the range to try something new, I test it at home (if possible) so I took the dart-like adapters, put the O rings on and inserted one in the bore. It fell straight through. So how's that going to squeegee the bore? I thought.

Then I soaked a couple of felts in Moose Milk, squeezed them out, put them on the adapter, stuck a damp patch on (a suggestion from one of the threads) and put them in the breech. It wouldn't go up the bore. I even took a short-starter and mallet and gave them a couple of whacks. No go, so I inserted a ramrod in the muzzle and popped the contraption back out.

So I took the patch off the adapter, made sure the felts were squeezed enough to get excess Moose Milk out and tried again. No go, even with the short-starter and mallet. Used the ramrod again.

Then I took one felt off the adapter and gave the remaining one a rolling squeeze to compact it and make sure the excess Moose Milk was removed. This time it went in, with difficulty, but usable.

Off to the range where everything above was duplicated, just to demonstrate it to a couple of interested people. Note that before I shoot I run a dry patch up the bore to remove oils, etc. Then I run a patch saturated with the bullet lube. Then I run a damp patch so this time I ran a felt wad instead.

After a shot, when I used the single felt, holding the barrel down so it would drop into my jar of soapy water, the barrel fairly dripped with dirty Moose Milk. When I held the rifle up to look through the bore MORE dirty Moose Milk dripped into the action. There'd been no squeegee action, as suspected.

Five rounds were fired using this wiping method. Then the bore was cleaned and the process repeated as above only using my usual damp patch between shots instead of the felt. Again, five shots were fired.

The target was the B-6(CP) 50 yard Repair Center shot at 100 yards. This has an 8-inch black center. The 5-rounds shot with wiping by the VFG system stayed within the black, making a 3.25 inch group. The 5-rounds shot with wiping by the damp patch also stayed in the black, but scored a 1 3/8 inch group.

Cleaning the felts was easy. I put them in a quart Mason jar, with the dirty patches, added 1/4 teaspoon of Dawn, 2 cups warm water and shook it. Repeated this twice. Then I took 2 cups warm water, 1/4 teaspoon of OxyClean and shook it up. This I let sit for 20 minutes. Then I gave them a rinse in warm water. The felts and patches came out nice and clean. Next time I will try using the tumbler, but I wanted to see the process the first time.

So maybe I'm doing something wrong. Certainly won't be the first time. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[Chill Wills]

If the o ring is the correct fit, it will take 95% of the moisture out of the barrel. A dry patch pushed at the same time, behind the felt wipes will dry (for the most part) the rest and you should be good.
To recap:
Use the patch wiping rod (you likely are) to push bore felt and patch behind it.

[rfd]

just got back from the 200 yard range and used the BACO wipers for the second time. *love 'em* they are THE way to go for me and the ppb's i'm loading and shooting. i only use plain water, i've not found a need for any concoctions. this aligns with my flintlock rifle thinking as well - bp residue is very readily cut with plain water (*UNLESS* i do a very dumb thing by not addressing fouling control or tube/lock cleaning in a *timely fashion*).

i'm still refining my fouling control BPCR process. for today's outing, i presoaked the double felted wipers and then put 'em in an MTM ammo box for easy retrieval. fire off a ppb, extract the case, tilt the muzzle down, insert a wiper, push it in with a short dowel about 4" past the chamber, lay over an arsenal patch (the new krappy ones) and push it and the wiper out the muzzle with a delrin rod. load up, fire again. as a test to make sure the patch was thoroughly drying the chamber and freebore, i'd run a dowel with a twin patches in a split end into the chamber and extract to make sure it was dry. in all tests, it was dry. i wrap my ppb's dry, and any moisture in the chamber will affect the onion paper patching.

[Toymaker]

Thank you, Chill Wills! Told ya, give me half a chance and I'll do something wrong. Dry patch behind the felts, not ahead. Ah, HA!!!

Then rfd comes across with a report that saves me from making another mistake. Thank you, rfd!

I use a 2 inch patch so I put two felts that had been soaked and squeezed on the dart. That goes in the chamber and a dry patch goes on top. Then I push everything through with the jag on the ramrod. I'm still not getting any "squeegee" action from the O ring but it works very nicely. Maybe I'll hit the hardware store and see if I can find a thicker O ring.

AND you both helped me find an issue I didn't know I had. Curious I cut a patch down so it would go on the dart before the felts and dry the bore before the squeegee. That would be a 1 1/4 inch round patch. It goes in mega-tight, almost to the point you can't do it by hand. Too hard to become part of the regular routine. BUT when I picked up the dart and looked at the patch I found splotches of lead, three of them about 1/16th inch square. (No, rfd, I'm not shooting PP. Mine are cast from 20:1) Cut down two more patches, soaked one in Kroil and ran it through. Got a couple of flakes. Turned the patch over and did it again. Got nothing. I'll wait a couple of hours and use the other patch the same way to see if anything comes out.

rfd, you ever cross the border and shoot at Marriottsville, MD?

[rfd]

never shot bpcr outside of NJ, PA and NY. what's marriottsville like?

[Don McDowell]

If you're having lead problems one of the better things to get it out is pure gum spirits of turpentine on a patch. Montana Extreme's Cowboy blend is a good thing to use when cleaning the gun up at the end of the day. It will pull lead, and removes the carbon fouling.
The BACO bore wipes in 7-1 water and Napa oil do a great job of cleaning the barrel during a match.

[rfd]

i just finished cleaning the roller, took all of 4 minutes, no leading for me.

SO much left to work on from the load, to the shooting process, my form, aiming, and follow through. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trOh4qZtpwU

[Toymaker]

rfd, NICE video. It was fun to watch and I picked up several things so it is educational too. Nice looking firing line too. Thank you for posting that.

I have a couple of friends who shoot at Marriottsville on a regular basis but I've only been up there for the Maryland State Muzzle Loading Championships. Covered firing line to 50 yards. There's an open space to the left where you can go to 100 but it's uncovered. Nice club house and space for tents or campers. Electric has to be run from the club house; no other hookups.

I'm new to the BPCR thing and haven't ranged beyond a local competition. Several of the shooters there do range far and wide for competitions. Muzzle loaders are my "thing". For that I wandered around. Age and eyes have curtained my activities some but I still shoot several local competitions and any youth event I can trying to spark a bit of interest in them.

[rfd]

videoing shooting is almost always a humbling experience for me and all the glaring errors show up and make ya cringe. but that's why you video yer shooting - to get better.

i have SO much work left to do with using the bore wipers. what i did in that vid was waay too slow and time consuming, need to cut it down to an average of 30 seconds of prep for a shot, then a good 15 seconds to get the shot off. absolutely must be well under a minute, average per shot. that's just the beginning of things i need to work on, but i do enjoy Everything about bpcr's, from load building to shooting and all the "little" things in between. rapidly approaching 72 years on planet earth, and with macular degeneration in both eyes i may need to start thinking about getting a scope sooner than i'd want. ack.

marriottsville only goes to 100 yards? that's less than short distance for bpcr's! :) most of my shooting is at 200 or 300 yards as those are the only distances our nor'west jersey range has available. the 200 yard line can't have sheds because behind it is the shedded 300 yard line.

i'm quite Heavy into muzzleloaders, too, shoot 'em at least once a week. love the boom, smoke, smell of anything real black powder related. ;)

[Gunlaker]

Well it took me a while to get enough wipers together to shoot a full match. I'd placed an order with BACO for 40 cal wipers and got 44 cal squeegies sent with them :-). I stopped by BACO on my way back from Wyoming to Canada and picked up what I needed.

Last week I shot our annual "Quigley" and silhouette match with them. I used one felt, and damp Arsenal patches. Accuracy was excellent in both .40 and .45 cal. Interestingly with both rifles the follower patch came out quite dirty. With the .45 I wiped the barrel after the 28 round gong match and the patch came out clean so I'd say it was a success.

With the .40 it was more mixed. Although the rifle shot very well and ended up winning the match, the rifle needed significant cleaning after each set of targets. I pulled significant chunks of lead out each time. Interestingly the rifle held very tight vertical despite this. When patching wet with the same solution on a nylon jag this problem doesn't occur, so something needs to be changed to get these working right for me.

I will have to spend more time playing with the wipers before I commit to using them in a BPTR match where there is rarely a chance to clean between relays. I'm sure that in a midrange match I'd have been out of the running as a result.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

With the .40 it was more mixed. Although the rifle shot very well and ended up winning the match, the rifle needed significant cleaning after each set of targets. I pulled significant chunks of lead out each time. Interestingly the rifle held very tight vertical despite this. When patching wet with the same solution on a nylon jag this problem doesn't occur, so something needs to be changed to get these working right for me. Chris.

Chris, were you shooting GG bullets when you had the leading issue?
In my use of them, I see the value when paired with PP bullets but we, a number of us that have been trying them, have had bad leading problems when used with GG bullets.
For hot days shooting GG bullets, when there is a need to wipe, I still go with the Tipton thin rod, Delrin/Nylon jag, and two wet patches.

[Don McDowell]

One shooter using the BWS and grease grooves, has found the leading to go away when switching from oil and water to Mpro-7 and pushing a damp (mpro7) patch.
Pushing just one button with a greaser is sufficient, and has worked somewhat decent in a 40-65 with patched, but the rest of the cartridges used around here, 2 buttons are to be preferred with patched bullets.

[Chill Wills]

That's right Don. When I was over in Utah last September, I was talking to some one shooting GG bullets and she was using the mpro7. It was working well for her, or as much as I know. I did not clean her rifle so have no idea about any leading:-P but her scores were strong!

[Don McDowell]

The shooter I mentioned is a target rifle fanatic that has been doing quite well this year, and he attributes a lot of his success to the speed of the BWS allowing to get off good centered shots in a prevailing condition. Works the snot out of the target pullers, but makes for decent x counts.

[Lead pot]

I always wondered about the shooters wiping the bore shooting GG bullets if that would contribute to lead fouling because the lube from the previous shot is wiped out.
Kurt

[Don McDowell]

If using something that doesn't leave a lube residue, or if to much moisture is left in the bore, it sure could cause some leading problems.

[M-Tecs]

i just finished cleaning the roller, took all of 4 minutes, no leading for me.

SO much left to work on from the load, to the shooting process, my form, aiming, and follow through. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trOh4qZtpwU

Very nice. Thanks for producing and posting it.

[Chill Wills]

If using something that doesn't leave a lube residue, or if to much moisture is left in the bore, it sure could cause some leading problems.
Yup Don, My primary interest in the felt bore wipes is for PP bullet shooting. At some point, I will get some mpro7 and try it with GG bullets, but much to much is going on now. That and more cartridge PP bullet development will have to wait until cold weather months slow the TaDoo list down.

[Don McDowell]

I hear ya, can't believe it's already the waning days of june. I would like to make the 1000 yd at Byers on the 9th, but at this rate I don't think I'll have time to cast bullets enough to go, and at 98 degree's outside, not to inclined to fire up the pots.

[Lead pot]

Winter is made for casting bullets :D

[Don McDowell]

True story that. :)

[Gunlaker]

Chris, were you shooting GG bullets when you had the leading issue?
In my use of them, I see the value when paired with PP bullets but we, a number of us that have been trying them, have had bad leading problems when used with GG bullets.
For hot days shooting GG bullets, when there is a need to wipe, I still go with the Tipton thin rod, Delrin/Nylon jag, and two wet patches.

Yeah, I just realized that this thread is in the PP section. Sorry :-).


I've seen these things work well with GG bullets for a few shooters, including ones I've been paired with. I'm sure that there is an adjustment I can make to improve these things, but as it stands my next match I'll likely be back to a delrin rod with a Tipton brush and patches.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Don I've got some Mpro-7 and will give it a try. I know that a few have used it in Phoenix with success.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I think the big trick to using these is not to push to fast, and using a flannel patch.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

which mpro7 product do you guys use?
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

I don't use it, but this is the stuff that the folks I know who do use it use.https://www.buffaloarms.com/m-pro-7-gun-cleaner-one-gallon-size-mpr1030

[Gunlaker]

Don that might be part of my problem, I put those things through the bore pretty quickly. I also think that the o-rings on the .45's fit my bore better than the ones for my .40. The .45, when shot the same way had no leading issues. On the .40, a fair bit of wiping fluid made it past the o-rings, enough that I occasionally had to mop the chamber.

It was an eye opener to see how tightly the rifle grouped even when pulling some lead chunks.

I am going to try these wipers on my PP rifles, but I suspect that the bore won't be as clean and dry as it is when I use my regular wiping routine.

Bruce, I wasn't paying attention to who was wiping with what this year at Phoenix, but at least a couple of the top finishers used mpro-7 last year. I've been using it since then to remove carbon from the rifle's throat and it seems to do a good job. It is a bit puzzling to me as a bore wiping solution as it doesn't seem to have any lubrication qualities which seems important when shooting greasers in the very hot weather.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

It was an eye opener to see how tightly the rifle grouped even when pulling some lead chunks.
Chris.

It is true. In 2009 when I won the NRA Creedmoor nationals it was stinking hot and for two days I was pulling a lot of lead out of the barrel after each relay. Still, the rifle and load shot very well.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

thanks don and chris.
saw some in a gunshop yesterday, so we can get it downunder.
being primarily a pp shooter I have learned that wiping clean and to an extent dry is best for that.
doing the same with greasers can be a recipe for leading.
almost all the bullets we use have some degree of bore riding noses, and these are both unlubed and bump into the rifling.
a recipe for disaster unless shooting with a lubed bore.
scheutzen shooters clean thoroughly, but use short noses that taper away from the bore, and do not have this problem.
you can either apply lube to the bore by some means, or blowtube, which also means a lubed bore for all but the first shot.
problem with blowtubing is you can foul out in hot dry weather.
shooting in time limits means that if a form of wiping can also leave a lubed bore you are in business for both pp and greasers.
guys using just a damp patch possibly achieve this condition, but would have to adjust patch wetness according to weather conditions.
a bit like adjusting blowtubing for the same reason.
what we need is to achieve a clean slightly lubed bore in 1 push of the rod in all weather conditions - a big ask.
particularly when the best way to get rid of crud is with the wettest device possible
possibly mpro7 can do this pushed with an arsenal patch or a cloth patch better than a soluble oil solution.
only 1 way to find out.
my 40 cal bore wiper squeegees are like chris's. they leave an amount of water in the barrel which is variable from shot to shot.
an arsenal patch pushing them always comes out moist.
if we shot how the creedmoor matches were run we would have time to literally lightly oil the bore after a good wiping.
but we don't.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Chill Wills]

used mpro-7 last year. I've been using it since then to remove carbon from the rifle's throat and it seems to do a good job. It is a bit puzzling to me as a bore wiping solution as it doesn't seem to have any lubrication qualities which seems important when shooting greasers in the very hot weather. Chris.

This is what I have thought about too. I have not used Mpro7 and have not even looked to see what is in it. But if it cleans down to the steel and does not have lube, .....nor does the next shot through lead ..... that is a big, Hmmmm!

I need to investigate more before jumping in.

[BrentD]

Bruce. It you wanted to oil between shots that is certainly doable. Organization is required, but an additional patch is definitely be accommodated

[BRUCE MOULDS]

brent, you are probably correct.
I have pushed either a bore pig of felt wipers with a patch, and then another patch down, back, and then down and out without problems.
as you say, setup is the secret.
the other secret would be to get the same amount of oil each shot, and none in the chamber.
using evenly oiled patches, one each shot, would give sameness from shot to shot.
down, back, and out would present a thoroughness that would be similar each time.
the odg oiled and than wiped the bore again, leaving a miniscule film.
that was for pp, and greasers might need a little more.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I seldom shoot greasers. I use the Napa oil and water at about a 1-7 mix for either the BWS or just pushing patches. The Arsenal patches just don't soak the water like a good heavy flannel patch does. I use a 2 1/2 in patch in 45 and 44, and 2 inch in the 40's.
I don't know if Zack got into full detail on his wiping routine in the latest edition of the BPCR news, but it's hard to argue with the results he's getting using it on the BWS with grease groove. I believe Dave Gullo also uses the Mpro7, but I think he uses the arsenal patches.

[Chill Wills]

There is a cleaner product and cleaner/lube - here is a link to the clean and lube. Maybe it is this...

https://www.buffaloarms.com/m-pro-7-cleaner-lubricant-protectant-one-gallon-mpr1430

[Don McDowell]

Several years ago some where using Murphy's soap oil with bore pigs.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

Michael,
the plot thickens - 2 choices! what does gullo use?
gullo might have discovered this by accident.
I remember the story of him fouling out when blowtubing, and running around trying to borrow a cleaning rod.
the big question was what he would have paid for such a rod.
the general concensus was "what the market would bear".
mpro7 might have been all ha had to wipe with, and it worked.
don,
I am currently experimenting with 5:1 cutting oil solution (Castrol) for the reason we are discussing here.
seems to work well.
this only with pp though.
I am beginning to think we have yet another reason why pp bullets are easier.
just clean the bore well and shoot, summer or winter, same routine.
I used murphy's for a while and it wipes extremely well, pushing easier than any cutting oil solution.
it does however encourage rusting blocks and other parts.
it also leaves a strange coating on the interior of hot barrels.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

I started a thread on mpro-7 on the Shiloh forum after coming back from Phoenix and seeing it on the equipment list. I didn't ask Jon or Dave about it then, but John Venhouse responded to the post. Eric Halter ( who put up a really good score shooting the same Dan T. PP chamber as I was using ) said they were using the "cleaner" solution.

Here is a link to that thread:

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24343

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

thanks chris,
yes, that thread is of great interest.
yhis mpro7 stuff seems to have some type of bore conditioner.
maybe that is what stops leading with greasers?
interestingly, whenblowtubing, the lube in the barrel is not the lube from the bullet.
combined with water from the breath the lube and the fouling form soap plus glycerine.
this is what does the lubing.
the soapiness of mpro7 might work similarly.
keep safe,
bruce.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

well I have some good advice.
do not listen to me!
yesterday I got leading with pp bullets using my regime while testing some new paper and grease soaked felt wads.
just when you think you have arrived you are further from the destination than ever.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce every now and then you'll get bad results along the path to new knowledge :-) Are you sure that you are patching far enough up the shank? The first time I tried wiping with pure water I got some grey wash in the bore from lead. I found out that my patches needed to be just a little bit longer :-)

Chris.

[beltfed]

And/or nose slumping if bullets are too soft
beltfed/arnie

[Don McDowell]

Just takes one little oopsydoo, torn patch during seating, case stretching from damp chamber, the list goes on, and in the blink of an eye the barrel turns into a night mare of lead deposits.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

well I owe you guys an apology.
pushed a dry arsenal patch through the barrel and the problem went away!
I t must have been lint or something from when I pulled the last cleaning patch nearly back to the chamber before pushing it through the muzzle and out.
the grease wads were an experiment in making a perfect gas seal behind the bullet rather than letting the bullet do the sealing
it is also possible to blowtube when doing this - working in the direction of shooting dirty.
impregnating the felt with lube is in part to achieve sameness it wad thickness, and also as a possible bore sweeper for full dirty shooting.
the felt is 44/40 diameter in a 40 cal barrel.
shot 2 ranges of 10 to count, both 600 meters.
1st range dropped 24 points, a shocker, and second dropped 13 points, not good but better.
one problem I have is needing to wear knoblok shooting frame/lens to see properly.
this makes looking at flags a lot harder.
will have to push on with plan a and improve both wind reading and vert.
still don't take my advice until I can shoot a 50/50 with some v count attatched for your own sake.
the paper I was trying is golden threads quilting paper.
it seems quite strong and does not stretch as much as seth cole when wet.
you need a different template for this paper done wet.
it is similar in thickness to seth cole 55y when wrapped wet.
keep safe,
bruce.
keep safe,
bruce.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

arnie and chris,
my patches wer if anything a little too long.
they were not cutting quite to the front, so no leading potential there.
since going to harder alloys like the odg used, I am slowly shortening them, hesitatingly in order to avoid the issue of leading from the front like bore riding greasers do.
keep safe,
bruce.

[54bore]

rfd, What is your opinion on this VFG system? I have been Contemplating buying in to it, everytime i walk in Buffalo Arms i see the rack of these standing against a wall

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I've found that so long as the leading edge of the paper engages the rifling, using 16-1 alloy, leading is a non issue.
You're getting real close to finding the secret to shooting dirty.. but there's 2 things you've glossed right by...

[BRUCE MOULDS]

don,
which 2 things are they?
keep safe,
bruce.

[rfd]

rfd, What is your opinion on this VFG system? I have been Contemplating buying in to it, everytime i walk in Buffalo Arms i see the rack of these standing against a wall

lewis, pm sent ....

[craneman]

Bruce et.all,
I have been using bore pigs of my own making for a number of years to wipe between shots shooting a micro groove greaser from my 45-90. When trying paper patch in my sons Browning 45-70 I modified my pigs and routine by taking the Brownells .45 caliber nylon bore brushes and screwing a VFG felt pellet on the front and one on the rear and screwing a 8-32 nylon locking nut on to hold it on. I then soak the pigs in a solution of 30% windex with vineger and 70% water. I shake these out and lay them on a towel on my line box, (haven't had the chance to refine this part) shove one into the chamber, put a 2" dry patch on the mouth of the chamber and push them through with my delrin rod between each shot and its fairly quick to perform.
I put this method and load together with little time to experiment before a buffalo gong shoot last fall and it shot lights out. We took this load and method to the Q this year and on the #3 target, rectangle 530 yards i watched my 15 year old shoot a 7 out of 8 on a freshly painted target, the five shots that i could see grouped into around 4" to5" of verticle. I shot the same load in a sister rifle and it performed well enough to get me a 37 in the wind earning 2nd in the mens and 8th overall. Far better than I would normally perform.
I can't say what your results might be but this really seams to be working with our rifles.
Oh by the way the load was the first I tried.
.446 BACO Money bullet cast in 16-1, dry wrapped to .451, cci br-2 primer, 83 grains Olde E 2F drop tubed into starline nickel plated cases. This leaves just enough room to seat a .060 poly wad and then compressed .123, seat the bullet and taper crimp with neck size die just enough to keep the bullet from falling out.
Thanks to Brent for he has suggested that exact recipe,except using Swiss, as a starting place for 45-70 paper patch loads.
All that to say you might give the windex with vineger and water a try for wiping. Many of us use it to clean the fouling after shooting so it seemed a natural to try it cleaning between shots!

Todd

[guninhand]

... how are you folks cleaning them?

I use a fast and easy method not mentioned so far in this thread. I thread the wads on to a length of coat hanger wire that has been bent into the shape of a V, usually using several of these "V"s at a time. Let them soak in warm soapy water for a few minutes then grab a V by the ends with one hand, spray the wads with Spray Nine with the other hand, and go over the wads with a scrub brush (tooth brush too slow). In less than a minute all wads got a soapy lather which I then rinse off under a hot water tap. Because the wads are on stiff wire you can push at the line of them from opposite ends, compressing and decompressing them, so that the water is flushing out the wads. That done, just hang the V on a hook or line to dry. I have found the coat hanger wire just the right size to hold on to the wad but not enough to expand the hole. I once tried a wooden barbecue skewer and it expanded the holes and made it too loose on the BACO jag. I also make my own wads from medium weight felt on a Cornell punch. It takes 5 of them to equal the BACO wad, and they are slightly less in diameter. I also make my own disposable jags from Q-tips, so starting down the bore I have the cut off end of the Q-tip with 5 home made wads with the bore wipe solution, a space, 5 dry homemades, a dry arsenal patch then the fuzzy tip of the Q-tip. The spacing is to ensure bore wipe solution goes no further than the first bunch of 5. I counterbored the tip of my delrin rod so that the fuzzy part of the Q-tip is enclosed (the other fuzzy end of the Q-tip has been cut off to thread the patch,wad bunch,wad bunch on) so that lots of the dry arsenal patch contacts the bore. Works plenty good enough for me, and you can have plenty on hand for a match. Afterwards I pull them off the q-tip directly to the wire holder. I put the center hole in them 5 at a time and they tend to want to stay together so I'm handling 5 at a time most of the time, otherwise it would be too tedious. Getting the holes centered is tricky, I use a drill press and a jig with a hole to hold the 5 wads. Drill bits don't work, I use a sharpened nail.