The Mother Of All Drill Presses!

[Three44s]

It took a lot of patience yesterday as the auctioneers waded through tons of stuff at a large farm and auto/truck sale but slowly and surely they waded through it inching closer towards a drill press I had my eye on.

Our farm has been stuck with a little Taiwanese drill since my brother broke a gear on our 1900 vintage drill that used taper attachment bits over thirty years ago and I now had my eye the Mother Of All Drill Presses! (MOADP)

Finnally, one of the two auction teams swung onto the row where the MOADP stood.

I had just one true challenger and we'd become friends, but I did not I realize he was the only one till the dust settled.

My new friend was only wanting the table from the press but I needed that and as he wanted it for a friend he was not going to out bid me anyway.

What he really wanted was some of the big bits that sold seperately in an apple bin that came with the press. I told him I'd be pretty easy on him if I were to also get those bits!

A couple of bids came on the press but when the dust settled I had bought the MOADP for 500 bucks!

Next were the apple bin of bits!

Now things heat up!

My new friend turns to me and in the middle of the fray he offers to split the cost ....... the competition ends with me on top at 700.

The day of the long wait ends our farm's long wait for a substantial drill press!

What I bought is a radial arm press which weights somewhere north of 4 tons, it's an Archdale with about 50 inches of travel and it uses up to 5 MT bits.

During the wait to pick up our treasurers we got more acquainted and he builds cannons, does re-enactments, recently took up handloading, has his first Dillon press.

We split up the bits in a logical fashion and after he paid his share I am only out about 850 for press and bits. I already have a bunch of MT bits from our old press and also a large lathe so that gave me a head start.

I also offered our great grey digger resources to him, you know when you have a machinist hunting your ranch you can pick his brain. LOL!

Life is grand when you are in the company of good people!

Best Regards and Happy Easter!

Three 44s

[rancher1913]

sometimes I use my greatgrandfathers drill press just to remember how good we got it. its hand crank, self feeding, stands about 5 foot tall and has to be mounted to a wall to work.

[cwheel]

Fond memories of working on those big old radial arm drills as a machinist. Biggest one I got to run was a old Carlton that had a #5 mt in the spindle. That old dog had to weigh at least 14,000 lbs. with it's 10' arm. After drilling a pilot hole, it would take a 4" drill and go right through steel without any complaint or chatter. If you got the tombstone and the vise with it, they make fine tools for doing intermediate size line boring as well with a boring bar in the spindle. That one had a 25hp main motor. I can't imagine getting one that cheap, congratulations on your purchase. You have to have some good 3ph power in your shop.
Chris

[Three44s]

rancher1913,

We have been going round and round with half inch hand drills or chattering up our bigger bits on the Taiwanese press from running them too fast for so long that your Greatgrandfathers press might have looked tempting to us!

cwheel,

I have 3 ph but it's 208v I believe as we have two pots instead of three, delta three phase I believe?

I am likely going to build another shop or add on to the existing structure because of how tall this press is, especially when you run the arm to the top so we have some work to do before we can use it ....but first we have to get it home in one piece. The auction company can't load it out until next week when their yard is pretty clear of most of this sale. They almost lost it unloading from the County truck (this press was in the County road shop most recently) and their fork lifts are maxed out with it.

I have been told the delta power would be fine. I do not know about the press but I also have one of the old shipyard Hobart DC welders that we've been running for thirty years, it is a 20 hp Three phase motor running a D.C. generator.

The biggest motor on this press is perhaps a five hp?

I also have a 3 ph generator capable of running it if necessary so we can work that out one way or the other.

I told my wife I was not going to go out looking for any Easter eggs today as I think I got one great BIG one at the auction!

Three 44s

[cwheel]

I think the hardest part for you will be getting big enough equipment to safely move it to your shop. It will help if the arm is moved as close to the base as possible, and the head is moved as close to the column, to lower the center of gravity. Our stuff was all 440 volts so I don't know how the power part is going to work out for you in a home or farm shop. Also, hope you have a friend with one big lift truck or a crane. Once on the ground in your shop, can be moved with pipes as rolls or regular machinery movers that can be rented. I recommend the machinery movers because in most cases 2 people can safely get it moved into position in your shop.
Chris

[leebuilder]

Neat. I ran a massive 25hp one as an apprentice. Its foot print was the size of a car. Drilled and tapped many many man hole covers and bases on it. Using big spade bits under power feed with coolant was neat. The chips were massive !!!.
Be safe

[cwheel]

I think it's likely you are going to find a larger hp. motor on the main spindle, especially with a #5 mt. on the spindle. Depends on the speed ranges, but it should handle a 2 1/2" drill just fine, might do much bigger with the right setup. I'd forgot because it had been so long, footprint on that old Carlton was about the size of a small car as well. What you might end up considering for power is what I had to do here to run my milling machine. A VFT phase converter ends up being a true 3 phase power and also gives you a variable speed control in between the speed ranges. Also a soft start for the motor when you power it up. You might google it and see what is available for what you have. Be sure to add together all motors for a total hp. rating, not just the main motor. I've run mine for more than 10 years and never a problem. Gives you full motor rated hp. and not de-rated like the others. My VFD phase converter was about $500 back then. Have fun.
Chris

[NoAngel]

Drilled many a hole on a Cincinnati radial arm drill. The bigger the machine, the cooler it is. LOL!

Looked similar to this one.

193393

[Three44s]

I think the hardest part for you will be getting big enough equipment to safely move it to your shop. It will help if the arm is moved as close to the base as possible, and the head is moved as close to the column, to lower the center of gravity. Our stuff was all 440 volts so I don't know how the power part is going to work out for you in a home or farm shop. Also, hope you have a friend with one big lift truck or a crane. Once on the ground in your shop, can be moved with pipes as rolls or regular machinery movers that can be rented. I recommend the machinery movers because in most cases 2 people can safely get it moved into position in your shoptalk it here in one piece to enjoy .
Chris

Chris,

Our press's motors are tagged as 220/440 so we will see. My irrigation pump house is 480 but it's 1 1/2 miles away from the main farm shop. That suggestion of a vari drive is excellent, being able to split speeds would be golden and our three phase lathes would be in line to benefit.

You are spot on that moving as it's my main worry. We have to get it here in one piece to make use of it!

Mark

[Three44s]

I think it's likely you are going to find a larger hp. motor on the main spindle, especially with a #5 mt. on the spindle. Depends on the speed ranges, but it should handle a 2 1/2" drill just fine, might do much bigger with the right setup. I'd forgot because it had been so long, footprint on that old Carlton was about the size of a small car as well. What you might end up considering for power is what I had to do here to run my milling machine. A VFT phase converter ends up being a true 3 phase power and also gives you a variable speed control in between the speed ranges. Also a soft start for the motor when you power it up. You might google it and see what is available for what you have. Be sure to add together all motors for a total hp. rating, not just the main motor. I've run mine for more than 10 years and never a problem. Gives you full motor rated hp. and not de-rated like the others. My VFD phase converter was about $500 back then. Have fun.
Chris

I think the biggest bit in the bin was about 2 7/8", I am going by what the machinist that was also eyeing it said about the size of the taper is but I see an adapter in the box that's a jaw droper as to taper size so I would be surprised if it was not a "five". The base on this drill is about the length of a Datsun pup bed but not quite as wide.

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Neat. I ran a massive 25hp one as an apprentice. Its foot print was the size of a car. Drilled and tapped many many man hole covers and bases on it. Using big spade bits under power feed with coolant was neat. The chips were massive !!!.
Be safe

That would be quite a responsibility as an apprentice!

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Drilled many a hole on a Cincinnati radial arm drill. The bigger the machine, the cooler it is. LOL!

Looked similar to this one.

193393

That's a dandy pic of one that would eat my new to me press's LUNCH ......LOL!

Most impressive!!


Best regards

Mark

[Traffer]

Can you get those at Harbor Freight?

[Three44s]

Can you get those at Harbor Freight?

Traffer,

If not now, SOON!

Mark

[10-x]

Cwheel is spot on. Phase converter is easy way to go. Being a machine tool repairman for years, worked on larger size drill presses, arms over 15' many 20' tall. Some were missing their fancy name tags when I left. Back in the 70-90's most of the big mfgs of just about everyting had quite a few left over tooling from WWII, still had the War Department tags on them. Foundation is the most important issue you may face, need thick slab or deep holes filled with grout under each leveling pad. Could write a book on stupid installations Ive seen.

[Three44s]

10-x,

We realize that this drill will need a good foundation and be bolted down to it and we have the capability to do that well.

We are likely going to have to build a place for it and as such we will be starting with a clean slate.

I have a number of chain and electric hoists and a tool crane likely ought to be added to the mix as well. Once we wall in the drill, running a forklift in there narrows as an option and that also runs the risk of damaging something. Tool crane rash is also a concern ........... you pay your money and take your chances!

We will be looking at the power issue as well and a VFD/converter is certainly in the possible mix, I like the added flexibility and what with our lathes, having a unit like that would present more dividends than just the drill. About the only 3 ph motors I have in the shop that wouldn't be a big advantage in having it would be an air compressor and our big WWII Hobart motor drive welder.

So my main concern is still getting it home in one piece. As cwheel suggested, it would be nice if we could run the arm down and bring the spindle in close to the column but I don't have an easy way to get power to it.

It came from our county road maintanence shop and I might be able to rangle a brief plug in as it's on our way home but we would already all tied down by then.

We will see.

Best regards and thank you

Three 44s

[cwheel]

I've never run into that brand of radial drill. But one of the ways you can tell something about capacity it has is the size of the taper in the spindle. #5 a is respectable size, you can go to the standard taper size chart and tell something about it's capacity by the drill sizes listed for that taper. Also, a neat thing is you do have a lathe and can make single point ( or boring tools ) to fit your own needs. Depending on the feeds and speeds available on the machine, think you should be able to bore up to 6" in steel with the right setup, and some will cut threads as well. You most likely know clamping stuff down is a big deal, anything that gets that much power from large tooling can be turned to junk in a heartbeat. You have not said if it has the tombstone or a vise. Typically we would get a nice vise off a old 20" shaper ( or larger ) and mount to the tombstone. That 2 7/8" drill is a nice size and be used as a pilot hole for boring jobs. If you can't lower the arm, at least crank the head all the way into the column clamp it down. Also might want a chain on the end of the arm so it can't swing in transport. I've move much bigger stuff, but always had the right equipment available, guess I'm spoiled by that. Can see how moving it could cause some stress !!
Chris

[Traffer]

This forum is such a great source of knowledge. I will never need such a machine, but so many of the comments give insight into other areas of useful information. This one has helped me to learn about moving heavy machinery, capabilities of large machines, general understandings of size variations in machine tapers, practical use of three phase power, the relative worth of some old iron, tips on auctions, and more. That is just this thread. CB has given me quite an education in the past couple of years. My thanks to all of you who share your valuable hard earned knowledge.
Sincerely
Traffer

[country gent]

A good drill press is as accurate as the lay out and set up work. We did hole patterns and laid them out with a height gage on surface plate then prick punched and checked with magnifying glass then center punched and drilled in the drill press. A piece can be indicated in and bored in the drill press with a little work. At work we had a few extra drill presses for those times when a part needed modified or changed a little. Set it up and a fixture then run the parts needing to be modified thru. The drill press is a versatile piece of equipment. A nice addition to them is a tapping head for multiple holes makes tapping much easier and faster.

[10-x]

Three44s, check the drive for both axis, unless really strange there should be a means to manually turn the head down the collum as well as move it toward the collum. Interested how it goes, almost makes me want to back to work,LOL.

[Plate plinker]

What score. WTG.

[cwheel]

Now that 10-X mentioned it, seams our American Hole-Wizard did have a manual lowering device located next to the drive. As I remember, it took a 3/4" square drive to lower it, slow, but can be done. Be well worth looking for and doing before you transport it. Just bring a couple of people to turn the crank, it's going to take awhile.

Chris

[Three44s]

Fellow members,

Yes, it has a tombstone and a vise on top of it but it's not much of a vise. The tombstone looks up to the task however.

The idea of hand operating the press into a better position for transport is great! I'll look into that!

I spoke with someone from the County shop where this press came from who knows it and he told me about the only thing really wrong with the drill is that clamp on the column is worn. I asked him if it was external and likely someone could build it up? He thought one could give it a new lease on life. He said they would drill a pilot hole, put in the large bit and run it backwards to assure it was centered and then run it forwards. I have read that's a good way to damage some body parts.

I am not suddenly ignoring you all, I really appreciate the great help here. My wife plays in a band and tonight is their concert so duty calls!

I'll be back as soon as I can.

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

I've never run into that brand of radial drill. But one of the ways you can tell something about capacity it has is the size of the taper in the spindle. #5 a is respectable size, you can go to the standard taper size chart and tell something about it's capacity by the drill sizes listed for that taper. Also, a neat thing is you do have a lathe and can make single point ( or boring tools ) to fit your own needs. Depending on the feeds and speeds available on the machine, think you should be able to bore up to 6" in steel with the right setup, and some will cut threads as well. You most likely know clamping stuff down is a big deal, anything that gets that much power from large tooling can be turned to junk in a heartbeat. You have not said if it has the tombstone or a vise. Typically we would get a nice vise off a old 20" shaper ( or larger ) and mount to the tombstone. That 2 7/8" drill is a nice size and be used as a pilot hole for boring jobs. If you can't lower the arm, at least crank the head all the way into the column clamp it down. Also might want a chain on the end of the arm so it can't swing in transport. I've move much bigger stuff, but always had the right equipment available, guess I'm spoiled by that. Can see how moving it could cause some stress !!
Chris

Chris,

The Archdale was made in England, with the town it was made in named after it. The company was founded way back and in the 60's or there abouts bought up by another and perhaps another still later.

The tombstone that comes with our drill is two sided (top and a side) but it has a fairly lame vise mounted on it. I'll be on the lookout for a better one.

You are getting me pretty stoked up about how versatile a radial arm drill can be .........

We are looking at all of our options to haul the drill and the one that's jumping out at us is a heavy duty dual wheeled tandem axle goose neck trailer. It would give us plenty of capacity, a fairly low hauling and loading height and probably the softest ride of the options we are exploring. Over the trailer axles there is a steel diamond deck on top of 2 by planking and to facilitate getting forks out from under and back under the base we will need to use some wood and that will reduce the chance for the drill trying to skid on the steel deck.

We might do a second recon on the drill prior to whatever day we intend to haul it so as to try screwing the arm down and retracting the spindle unit in close to the column.

Thanks again

Mark

[Three44s]

This forum is such a great source of knowledge. I will never need such a machine, but so many of the comments give insight into other areas of useful information. This one has helped me to learn about moving heavy machinery, capabilities of large machines, general understandings of size variations in machine tapers, practical use of three phase power, the relative worth of some old iron, tips on auctions, and more. That is just this thread. CB has given me quite an education in the past couple of years. My thanks to all of you who share your valuable hard earned knowledge.
Sincerely
Traffer

+10!!

Mark

[Three44s]

A good drill press is as accurate as the lay out and set up work. We did hole patterns and laid them out with a height gage on surface plate then prick punched and checked with magnifying glass then center punched and drilled in the drill press. A piece can be indicated in and bored in the drill press with a little work. At work we had a few extra drill presses for those times when a part needed modified or changed a little. Set it up and a fixture then run the parts needing to be modified thru. The drill press is a versatile piece of equipment. A nice addition to them is a tapping head for multiple holes makes tapping much easier and faster.

Wow, I can see I have a long ways to go to change up my game!! With my eyes, now ......... I don't know if the Hubble telescope would help me??? But I would not have of thought of using a magnifying glass .......... that's GOOD! Thank you!

Pretty versatile? I will say after all you kind folks's help, I am gaining an appreciation for the drill I lumbered into the likes of which I never imagined!!

The idea of tapping with a drill is also intriguing!

Can't wait to get that BABY fired up!!!

Thanks

Mark

[Three44s]

Three44s, check the drive for both axis, unless really strange there should be a means to manually turn the head down the collum as well as move it toward the collum. Interested how it goes, almost makes me want to back to work,LOL.

You'd be most welcome here!! But it is a fer piece ....... I am in S. Central WA! LOL!!

The motor at the top of the column has the motor coupler exposed so dropping the arm might be a slow but doable proposition. The spindle travel has a screw that runs out two the end of the arm ........... you and Chris are likely onto something there.

Thanks

Mark

[Three44s]

What score. WTG.

Thank you sir!

Mark

[10-x]

Mark, there may be an electric lock( clutch) attached to the axis drive, IIRC they are DC volts. Electrician made up a litle transformer from 120VAC to adjustable VDC, cant remember the voltage but a few batteries rigged up would work. Had a large Giddings and Lewis horizontal boring machine run over the end stops of the table. Jack leg tried to push table with forklift!!! Bent ball screw, broke drive housing off bed. Simple 1 hour job turned into several months waiting for parts and recoating way surfaces. Machine was a 50's model, well built with mechanical feeds but could not deal with " cannibals" working on it.

[Three44s]

10-x,

Thanks, something else to keep an eye out for!

Here's some eye candy ............ kind of a small drill ........ LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhd_SYUEp6E

Enjoy!

cwheel asked me if I got a tombstone with our press and we did but I see they are even more versatile than I realized by watching the above video. The crappy vise mounted on it does not concern me as much now.



Mark

[10-x]

Mark, brings back a few memories. Most places would not allow one to take pics and did not take lots of notes, sure worked on one of those.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Dave, 10-x

[JMax]

Rancher1913, I have my grandfathers hand crack drill press and now that we moved into a larger place I will be mounting it to a wall. I even have a number of bits and have fond memories using it in his barn.

[cwheel]

Well Mark, sounds like you have the right trailer for the job. If it will transport a full sized backhoe, it should move that drill just fine. Also sounds like you have the tombstone and vise as well, good start. Half of the larger stuff you might do will be clamped with hold downs to that tombstone. Vise can be replaced at some point for something better. As a suggestion, we went looking for a damaged shaper ( and found one, a Cincinnati heavy duty 20" ) with a nice factory swivel vise to use on our American Hole Wizard, it worked out great. The dealer was going to scrap that old shaper, it only had scrap value, most folks don't run shapers anymore. That vise cost us $300 and was almost new. The vise we got weighed at least 400 lbs. with the swivel base and had heavy duty jaws that were at least 14" long. Don't know if you got a chuck for the spindle with the purchase, but it's one of the first things you'll need. Think about looking for a Jacobs ball bearing #20N. This chuck has a range of 3/8 - 1" very useful with a radial. Get the right size #5 mt. shank with it, or change it out to the right size before using, these radial drills have plenty of power to bend or break the smaller shanks. Mine came from a swap meet where someone was selling a machinist's tools, but it's very common to find one with a radial drill already. Because of the size of that chuck, hard to miss at a pawn shop or swap meet. If your pockets are deep, MSC has them as well. On a side note, someone her talks about running a larger drill in reverse over a smaller pilot hole to center the larger drill. Common practice, I did it all the time, very slowly. I also witnessed someone doing this at high speed in reverse without clamping the column or drill head. The 2" + drill tossed the arm, broke the drill, and the operator needed stiches when the drill shattered sending shrapnel into his arm. Could have killed him. Center over a smaller hole in reverse VERY SLOWLY, then clamp everything down and drill. With these higher powered drills, when something lets go, things get dangerous very fast. Sounds like you have the transport handled, have fun with it.
Chris

[country gent]

One of the most common "mistakes" people make is drilling to big of a pilot hole. This allows the drill to want to grab and bind. Dosnt allow the properly sharpened drill bit to center as well. It also cause heavier wear on the lands of the drill. A quick idea is look at the web on the big drill ( flat where the 2 cutting edges come together) and drill the pilot slightly bigger. This will cut down a lot on chatter and grabbing, drills last a lot longer.

[W.R.Buchanan]

3 44's so where's the pictures of this new device? I have been waiting since the beginning of this thread.

If you don't post pics of the machine, you didn't really get it now did you?

Randy

[cwheel]

Yes, I'd like to see pics as well, but lets give him enough time to get it home from the auction yard and off the trailer. For most of us privately, that's going to be a major undertaking.
Chris

[10-x]

Mark, you can hire some Egyptians to move it in your shop! LOL

[Three44s]

Rancher1913, I have my grandfathers hand crack drill press and now that we moved into a larger place I will be mounting it to a wall. I even have a number of bits and have fond memories using it in his barn.

JMax,

When you make a hole with that setup, you really earned it well!

Best regards

Mark

[DCM]

Pics? Especially the nameplate on the motor, might be multivolt?

[Three44s]

Everybody,

We actually are pursuing borrowing the trailer I posted about. It used to belong to a guy that works for us and we are pretty sure that we are still in the current owners good graces.

Today we loaded up a tall step ladder and a bunch of tools, went to visit the press. We hit pay dirt! We got the arm fully lowered and brought the spindle to the column. I like Kriol and had a full can along which came in real handy. We found there is a direct hand control to run the spindle anywhere you want it on the arm. To lower the arm we first relocated the tombstone out to the end of the base. Next we started turning the coupler between the column motor and the press. After the kroil had a chance to soak in we took the fan cover off it and used the motor's fan to turn the column drive.

While we were at it we stopped by the county's shop and found the guy that used to run it. He gave us the paper work on it including a consistent but useful operation and maintainence book for that machine. Talk about hitting pay dirt!

Also the decision to unload this press came from higher up! That speaks well of the press in my opinion.

So now we are ready to haul and we saved what documentation the county shop had from future destruction, a pretty good lick!

Chris,

Thanks for the added suggestions, they are very pertinent! People have a hard time understanding just how much damage power equipment can do to a human body or to other things around it!

Dave,

There is some sort of brake on the column drive but it did not bother us.

More later!

Mark

[tallwalker]

Interesting thread and what a project! Look forward to hearing about your progress. Watching that video of the operator reminded me right away of the Wizard of Oz behind his curtain twiddling and turnings controls! Looks like incredible fun.

[woodbutcher]

:D Great score.Sounds like some fun times ahead.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[country gent]

Most of that big equipment is still moved on rollers made of pipe have 6-8 of them and as one rolls out move it to the front again.We had some roller pads at work but they were very susecptable to rough surfaces. On some equipment picking it up wrong will do more damage than can be repaired

[10-x]

Country Gent , Mark and all, thus my egyptian post. Many wont believe how many machine tools have been moved on pipe rollers. Many old shops did not have clearance for even the low shop mobile cranes, pipe rollers worked fine. Sweep the floor of everything, better yet couple of big shop vacs to remove whatever. Another trick is to mark floor with chalk in the event one can not see around the machine as to where you are, just look at chalk marks or line. Now the shops with the tarred wooden block floors were a PITA. Thay are nice when one drops a big $$$ part or new tool. By chance, post pic once you get that beast set up. Have RV, tempted, really tempted.LOL

[country gent]

At Campbells we moved a lot of very heavy equipment with pipe rollers and rail road jacks. The slickest I seen was a crew that used an set of air pads for it over an epoxy coated floor. That big cup press could be pushed by one hand and one man if needed. It just floated on compressed air cushion.

[Three44s]

Country gent,

Thank for the tip about using pipe rollers, I have used them before to good effect on other projects and would not hesitate here if the circumstances warrant it.

I don't for sure right now but I am leaning towards a new separate building for it.

We are studying all the uses we may find for this tool and the input put forth by members in this thread is also driving our thinking.

The prospect of line boring opens a huge opportunity of repairing sticks on our excavators and backhoes. As such we need to determine how viable an option is and if so, how to remedy the access issue .... I.e. How do we make a number of the walls removable so we can get the work to the press?

Mark

[country gent]

While some call it wasted space After 35 years running various shop equipment as a tool and die / gage maker I can say there is never to much room around a machine. On big machines it sometimes easier to load or set up from 2 or 3 different sides. I found on lathes chucking big long parts from the back side was easier since I didn't have to lean over the compound and controls. A big drill press needs some room around it to. long parts a floor support is real handy for the outside end at times. Depending on the size of work your planning on a crane over the machine may be helpful also.

[jmorris]

Some of the big ones go for peanuts because of the cost to move them and the room they take up. I have seen some go at auction for prices that were less than the fuel it took to drive them to the scrap yard. Being a sort of machine junky myself always makes me cringe.

speaking of deals on drill presses though I did score this burgmaster on eBay for $46 awhile back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fAVaOMdBkc

[10-x]

Jmorris, you stole that!!!!! Nice machine.
Mark, might consider roll up doors for transporting large parts to drill.
+ 1000 Conutry gent, one never has enough space around such drills, in fact no guys shop that Ive seen is large enough.

[Three44s]

jmorris,

That's one sweet outfit! Good score.

I figure whatever a guy pays is immaterial as long as it's mutual consent, the main thing is that fine equipment is kept from ending up in a dump or a smelter!

I found out yesterday that the big radial drill we bought was bought by our local county shop for $1900 back in 1990 so it was not gov. surplus like I originally thought.

The sad part was that shortly after the county bought it, someone there in the chain of command took the tooling for working on engines to the scrap yard that came with the press ........... I don't recall just what it was but I am sure of one thing: Whether I could of run that gear or not (I am no machinist) nothing that belonged to our press would ever end up being separated while under my watch!

I can't help what was done before my time but I sure can under my watch.

Best regards and enjoy that Burgmaster!

Mark

[Three44s]

country gent and 10-x,

I am very congnisent of the fact we need to move carefully on design and construction around this press.

My father whose just turned 89 has not even seen it yet is pretty pumped about our newest addition. I was impressed as I described the unit over the phone, he really got attentive when I mentioned "radial arm drill" ......... LOL!

You see besides farming and ranching he has a great interest in drill water wells with cable tool drills. He was never a driller for hire but rather for his own use and has drilled about 4000' of basalt rock ....... in his "spare time" over his life.

It's in his molecular make up!

Now in the course of that much "pounding" ........ he had occasion to stroll through some mighty fine machine shops waiting for tapered tool joints being cut on his many drill tools. He did not specify just where or what he witnessed to make him so animated .......... but short memory and all ....... he knew very decisively what I meant when I uttered those words ............ radial arm drill .......

............ the 8000 pounds ....... sort of got his attention also ......... LOL!

He like myself are really pondering the location relative to our existing shop, what the potential of the drill is and just how to make it accessible to whatever we may be able accomplish with it ....... I'd say right now ....... we are the weak link in our endeavors ........ but with a little homework I'd say we will likely reach out to people who know what they are doing, this forum being a great place to start but also people actually doing the work on special projects ........ I am mainly refering to line boring .........

......... all the while protecting the drill from damage from the elements as well as mishandling.

Undoubtably either big doors or removable wall sections or some sort of hybrid of those two are in order.

On our ranch we have a back hoe and an excavator and my brother runs our family's rock quarry, he's got excavators I don't even know about ...... LOL! Between us I can see a stick or two or other big pieces needing a line bore .......... somewhere along the line.

I think yesterday getting the arm down and spindle ran back to the column ...... and getting the documentation we did from the previous owner was a pretty good lick!

One more item: I'd cast dispersions about the voltage at our shop ....... I have no more worries .......... I had a fellow working on a pickup yesterday and when he whipped out his Fluke VOM ....... I snagged it and checked our 3 ph .......

No worries ............ it's upper 230's ....... hot dog .......!

There has been a question about the motors on this drill. It has a 5 hp 220/440 on the spindle and a 3 hp 220/440 on the top of the column.

The shank that the spindle can handle is big ..... I don't know for a fact that it's a Morris #5, a machinist that was early on my competitor for this drill (he just wanted the tombstone for a friend) told me it's a "5" ......... but I tried a bit around our old drill and then our lathe and the shank from the radial drill dwarfs our stuff hands down. Our lathe is not a dink ....... it swings 22" and the taper in the tail stock is no dink either but the radial drill shank is substantially larger.

We will know soon enough ....... I got a good friend whose over 90 years old self taught machinist, worked for ever for FMC and he's either going to skin me or see this drill when we get it home and he will know for sure at a glance!

We'll get some cool pictures soon! I promise ...... we want them for posteriety ourselves ......... and sharing them with all of you is only fair ........ and with all the help many of you have given as well!


Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

If line boring on this drill could be your first intent, your lucky, you can make your own tooling for that job easy enough, we did and it worked just fine. Dia. of the bar will end up being half, or up to 60% of your bushing Dia. Spindle taper would be machined into one end and fitted to the spindle after cutting the tang. The spindle taper on a drill that small should be a #5, but some older ones that weren't standardized might even run a #6, both tapers are still .625 taper per foot. A support bracket needs to be made to fit the tombstone with a bronze bushing to support the end of the boring bar with about .006 clearance for the bar to pass through. We used a short chunk of 6" angle iron drilled on one side for a clamp bolt ( to the side of the tombstone ) and drilled on top and fitted with the boring bar support bushing. It was a very routine job boring log loader arms, backhoe sticks, etc. Limiting factors were the height available on the radial drill, and the spindle travel. Bigger stuff had to go to a boring mill, but most stuff could be set up and done easier on that radial drill. Depending on the size of the sticks on those excavators, this radial could end up having a limit capacity line boring, hard to guess at not standing next to it. One thing that sure helps is a davit hoist next to the tombstone to move the heavy stuff and make adjustments to the setups. Having enough space next to it to drive a lift truck into it to load and unload sure helps. Fun days ahead for you,
Chris

[Skinny]

I want to see pics of this beast too. Sounds like a nice little project.

[country gent]

The machinists handbook will give the sizes and tapers for the different morse tapers. You can simply measure it then

[Three44s]

Chris,

Actually it was your reference to line boring that caused me to google it and the very first You Tube video that came out of the search had me doing hand springs!

I came to the realization of just how much one can do with a sufficient radial arm drill .............

We had a set back this AM when we found out that the 5 th wheel flat deck trailer that we had our eye on is broken down ...... We thought about our 2 ton truck for a bit but we did not like the added height in loading, hauling and unloading. We also were going to have to travel back to where the drill was located and get a precise height measurement because we might have been illegal.

We took a different path. We used my brother's low boy .......... yes, overkill but a better (lower) deck height, better suspension etc than the truck.

Bottom line, this evening our new to us baby resides in our hay shed on a pair of railroad ties .......... the baby is home!

We also got a weight .......... right at 8800# ......... while we were at it.

Now we can start the process of chosing where it's new home will be with respect to our existing shop.

Skinny,

We are working on pictures and I'll get some more tomorrow. While we were unloading we were experiencing difficulty as our forklifts were not upto the task of sitting on either side of the trailer and picking the drill as we had to keep them back to allow the low boy to pull away without scraping the lift trucks. The smaller of the forks was a 5000# and it could not begin to lift much less hold it's share of the weight ........ the Clark 7000# did fine on a split.

So we had to chain the drill to the Clark and pull it to it's side of the trailer. From there, I lifted it but only barely.

We needed a strategy and quick!

What we found that one could nose the forks down, then lift the forks as high as they'd go ......... and pull back on the mast and run the forks up hill ............

That's how I got off the trailer and also re-raise it to place it on the ties in our hay shed.

It sure feels good now!

Mark

[Three44s]

country gent,

Thanks for another great tip ......... I thought about for moment and did a google search ................. WA LA!

Morse Taper charts on line ................

I'll measure our shanks etc. tomorrow and report back .........

Probably be some pictures then also!

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Dad went along today ...... when we went after the press ....... his first time to lay eyes on it ..... after the (descriptive) explicatives ...... he had some good thoughts on it! LOL!

Mark

[cwheel]

A machine weight of less than 9000 lbs. puts it in a range where you can still mount this on the adjustable rubber machinery mounts. It would be something to think about. You don't need to anchor to a large slab of high strength concrete ( would still be good to have it on a 6" thick slab of 5 sac cement, not dirt ) and no machine base grouting is then required. These mounts often go on sale at Enco or MSC. Main advantage is they dampen the machines natural resonance and greatly improve machine cutting finishes. These mounts just slightly elevate the machine and have a screw built in for leveling. The cheaper Mason brand in the size MLS-4000 gives you a 4000 lb. weight limit per pad and are about $62 each. Royal makes the best ones, but they cost over $200 ea. and aren't necessary. 4 give you a weight limit of 16,000 lbs. twice what your machine weighs. Used these on our mid to smaller sized machines and it made installation and moving at a later time easier. When mounted to these, it just gives room for a set of fork lift forks to slip under the base. Biggest advantage was eliminating more than 60% of tool chatter in heavy cuts. The rubber ( or neoprene ) stops the machine using the resonance that happens with the normal ground anchor mounts. Larger machines can't use these mounts due to weight, things weighing in at 14,000 lbs. and above, but weight of your drill makes it just right for these. Just a suggestion. Might also save you a bunch of time on the install.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I googled the mounts you referenced and they certainly look viable.

So I assume that would preclude a solid tie down of the press? Is it viable to drill or line bore with the drill when it's not directly over the base when the work pieces are so tall or thick that you can't place them on the base and would not bolting the press down eliminate that option?

Mark

[cwheel]

That's why the pads that are so oversized for the actual weight. ( twice what's required for the weight ) Worse position for weight distribution would be during a setup where you would swing the arm to the rear 90 degrees clearing the table for setups. Some setups require the table to be removed and the project bolted directly to the base. Boring bar end support becomes a problem with projects off the tombstone or table, much easier on. Further away from the column you get, or off the footprint of the base you get, the lighter a cuts you have to take due to tool chatter, setup being outside the machines design specs, still can be done though. You mentioned " hay barn " and I have on as well, mine has a dirt floor, if yours does to, and you are thinking about running it out there, you are going to need to something else for a mount because of the dirt floor. Lag bolt it to a couple of RR ties ?? ( cross wise for a bigger footprint ) These rubber mounts will only work well on a decent slab of concrete, off a slab, going to take something else. Post some pics, let's see what you got.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I did put the press in our hay barn but was not planning on running it there. First, there is no power so I'd have rig up our 3ph generator. Second, we'd have to rig up some sort of temporary base to mount it on and all of that would just be a distraction to getting it the way I would prefer the setup.

The floor in our hay shed is shale rock and crushed gravel.

What you describe about drilling etc. off of the base makes lots of sense ..... you can do it but it is not ideal yet doable just as I would have guessed.

At long last, I have pictures:

http://s557.photobucket.com/user/Three-44s/slideshow/

Thanks for everyone's patience and best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Mark, for $500 you sure did well. Most likely because most folks won't have a place to put it or the 3ph to wire it. Getting a look at it on the lowboy trailer, this one is most likely to big for the soft rubber feet. I like the table, good size, and the vise might end up being factory but is chewed up a bit. Might be able to fix that with a new steel insert on the base of the vise. Best mounting for that one might be conventional with bolts epoxied to the concrete, the size of holes in the base, nuts and washers for leveling, then a good grouting to the concrete. Looks like fun ahead for you, I'd be surprised if you couldn't line bore anything you might have on a farm, have fun,
Chris

[MaryB]

WOW! I have been following this, nice to see such a nice piece saved form the scrap man!

[Three44s]

Chris,

Thanks for the kind words on the state of the purchase. I felt pretty good about it after the biding was over and very good as it sits on our "turf" safe and in one piece.

I have to confess, I took several pics on the trailer as it does puff it up even more, just for giggles but it is no small piece of iron either. The fellow who is up on the deck with it works for us and he's about 6' and just a bit over ..... maybe an inch ...... and I am standing on the ground so that hypes things a bit.

The weight however is accurate at 8800#, the scales are certified as my brother sells rock over them to local, state and government concerns besides the general public. I have not measured the arm precisely but my guess is that it is perhaps 4 1/2' of actual travel ...... maybe a little more?

There are six bolting points. The previous owner (county) did not use the two on the end and they were plugged and it took driving a punch through them to prove they existed.

I never really explained our operation fully. We are a farm and ranch for sure but my father, besides having a bent on well drilling for his own needs is also into heavy equipment. He's had one or another D7 cat since he was a mere pup and not always one at a time. We have self propelled scrapers, also Cat. Dad has a backhoe as well as a Komatsu excavator with a rubber tired (and tired) 4X loader thrown in.

My brother runs the rock pit and that entails a list of heavy equipment that would choke a horse, wheel loaders and many excavators ........

So when you mentioned line boring .............. I really flipped.

I believe some of our excavator's main boom stick base pivots won't fit under this drill in any case, the two JD 892s really come to mind there, but even Dad's Komatsu boom's base pivot may not fit either. Wheel loaders are not likely to have too much boom or bucket wise to work there as well. But the rest of the stick on most of the machines and even some drive train housing work might factor in?

The thing that got me thinking about housings are our old self propelled balers. New Holland has discountinued many parts on the drive train on them several years ago. Now I have a number of those old girls bought and figured on cannabalizing them down to a nub over time. Guys have taken the old vari drives off and replaced them with a hydrostat.

Just sitting here I have a hard time figuring out how a guy could get a worn bearing pocket relocated with enough precision but I suppose having a good one for a pattern to measure would give one a good jumping off point? Think of a clutch bell housing on a truck but it's industrial so a pulley on a sliding splined shaft inputs power through a bearing and into the dry clutch, a three speed transmission and axle with final drives all in one bolted together unit. It's a lot like the older belt drive combines but only as larger a smaller unit.

Any way, lots of fun like you say!

Mark

[Three44s]

WOW! I have been following this, nice to see such a nice piece saved form the scrap man!

Mary,

Thanks for the kind words!

The poor guy that ran it for the county is not happy it's gone, his boss made it go away but he was very helpful and got me what documentation they had and gave some advice along with it. Turns out he is the nephew of a great retired diesel mechanic who's a good friend and neighbor.

Small world!

I also invited him to come and use it once we get it set up if he ever had a personal project in need of it's capabilities.

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

So I guess I am a whipped pup now?

When I started this thread, I borrowed on our recent military exercise in the fight against ISIS ........ The Mother Of All Bombs and began with The Mother Of All Drill Presses.

A bit of bragging but I was so awestruck on the press I bought ..... I appologize for assuming so much .......... in google searches I was seeing bigger and BIGGER presses .......... and our press is certainly substantial ........

........... Truthfully, it's not the mother ........ not a big brother ............

................... maybe, just maybe the baby brother of all drill presses .........

And don't know if this is truly the "Mother of ............" or not but here goes:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/largest-radial-drill-145218/

Scroll down to post #5 and enjoy!

Mark

[Three44s]

How's your German?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd8UBUx5yJ4

......... a baby, but notice the threading operation towards the end of the vid

A bigger brother

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHdUX777uw8

A nice little shop lathe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EBQ95a4UvI

I suppose the shop rate on this feller is about $15 .... ? LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_50k2AHCzY

Mark

[cwheel]

Looking at the pics again and you should be able to drill with a high speed drill up to 3" in steel, bigger with a spade drill under coolant. Boring, 6" with a heavy cut, and much bigger if you want. You have a honest mid sized radial there. Still don't see how they got away with a 5hp. main motor, but the gear ratio will sure help with the power factor when running low rpm. Locating the center of a worn bearing bore, or arm bushing location isn't to hard, just need patents and a pile of different dial indicators, lots of clamps. Between lathe and mill work, working a old 12' plainer, the radials, I still have over 20 old dial indicators left over gathering dust here in retirement. Get to use my stuff occasionally doing my own work as a tractor repair comes up or something else. I retired early after 40 year as a machinist, and 30 of them as a maintenance machinist, so I've always liked running the older equipment, think it required more skill and thought, much more of a challenge. We have self propelled balers still running here in the little valley I moved to after retiring, see them running around here, or towed with a pickup about 4 times a year when they cut the alfalfa fields. And, like Mary said, I always feel good when serviceable good old iron is saved from the scrap yard. Most of that stuff was built to last generations if taken care of. You are going to have a great time with that one, have fun,
Chris

[Traffer]

Can you imagine making a mistake with one of those machines? Scrap a 3 or 4 ton precision part? Ugh.
Great thread. Been very educating and fun to read.

[cwheel]

Don't have to imagine it, I've done it, and been lucky. First thing you learn, and learn fast, it to stand out of harms way. Safety glasses, protective clothing and steel tow boots. Sometimes that just isn't enough. When something breaks, or lets go of the clamping, all hell breaks loose in a fraction of a second. Do it long enough, there isn't one of us that did it and can say it hadn't happened to them a few times. You learn to clamp it down, and then clamp it down some more. When your part becomes a bolted on part of the machine, you have done your best and go for it.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

You are likely right on bit size ......... the largest size twist drill in the cut down apple bin of bits was 2 7/8" and the scale on the run of the machine ends at 3". I also understand the reality of boring larger holes and needing to take lighter cuts, especially with the restriction of having a five horse motor on the saddle. Maybe our "wrecks" will be smaller with that 5 horse there?

In our opperation, a slower cut is not a real negative ........ we are not working for someone else. If we can pull off a repair and it takes a little longer, we are not paying for expensive shop time and likely we are saving a piece we would have scrapped and bought another one elsewhere or perhaps even scrapped the machine ..... some of this stuff is no longer manufactured (as parts) and is also often hard to find used.

And like you, we like good well built heavy machinery ......... often lasts a lifetime if you take care of it ....... yes indeed!

Traffer,

You point is well taken but I agree with Chris ........ and ........ My father has a saying that applies here ........... "They are making more iron every day .......... there is only one YOU!"

I guess I'd modify your point about ruining a 3-4 ton precision part:

I'd say that if you are careful, most mistakes with big iron is not fatal sans getting hurt in the process or damaging the drill itself. Big crashes aside like Chris later referred to ........ boring a hole off center, particularily if you are building up and cutting it back out ........ if you are misalinged, you have all the tools to correct the mistake ..... it just takes more time.

An example would be a dip stick on a back hoe or excavator ...... if the pin won't reinstall to one's expectations, you go back to the drill and welder. The very tools that you used in making your mistake are likely to be the ones you correct the mistake with.

A part that one could not build back up would be a pretty tuff one, but a bushing could be made and installed unless the mistake was off center, though I suppose one could make a thicker bushing and cut it off center but centered in the part once finished.

Best regards and thanks

Mark

[10-x]

Mark, Nice press, medium to small but a steal @ what you paid. Yes, yes on the dampening mounts, should be an easy install. Give a kid a Norton stone and oil can to clean ways, good job and they will learn something and might get interested in running it. Have seen large parts mounted to the floor next to a press using Hilti type anchors. Hopefully it will work out just fine. Good luck.

[cwheel]

Our train wrecks had higher consequences. I'm attaching some pics to this post. In retirement working in my small home shop, most things can be handled by hand, and if it doesn't go right, you just start a new part. Don't know the order these pics will post in, but pic #1 shows my small 14" lathe, and pic #2 shows my small Bridgeport style mill. Notice the mounting feet on the mill, what I was talking about in the other post, mill weighs about 3000 lbs. Pic # 3 shows the mounting pads better. Pic #4 shows a one of us turning a rotor in our 84" American Pacemaker lathe. That rotor made in the mid 1920's ( 1000 hp. 2400 volts, common in the time, very uncommon now ) is in the lathe for a minor fix, but if that rotor is ruined, it would require replacing the machine it drives ( a very large flood control pump, 36 million gallons per min ) at over a million dollars. Common repair in this shop. The consequences of errors was felt by all machinists doing these high value repairs. Some old iron you just can't by parts for, have to replace with new if ruined, or beyond repair. That lathe has a 50hp main drive motor. If you can see the detail in the pic, the tool post is a Aloris EA, the biggest they make and is still small using 1" tool bits. What Mark is talking about having his shop doing the work will save them big money. When I retired 11 years ago, local machine shop time was $225 per hour plus material, sure it's much more than that now. Mark now has the potential to save his business tens of thousand of dollars in repairs, way to go Mark. Also note about the 5hp main motor, although smaller than most, it has way more hp to the tool than most thing. That 5 hp main motor ( 1725 rpm ) going through a gear box down to 45 rpm at the tool, generates about 190 hp worth of power and down pressure on the spindle. That's very respectable anyway you look at it. Drive that 3" drill, you bet.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Thanks again and for the pics!

Your point is well taken about even a 5 hp motor geared down and the devastating results if things go wrong.

My order of priority will be people, the press and tooling ......... and in our line of work the piece being worked on third due to the nature of it. I certainly can see where the consequences of damaging a large armature would be disastrous. Our work won't be anywhere nearly that technical.

Last year at the same auction yard that I bought the drill press at, they sold a large heavy mill and tooling. I don't remember if the tooling when with it but the mill only brought a bit over $300 ........ I did not go ....... I did not know about the mill even being in the sale .......... so when I found out about this drill press I made it a point to be there when it sold because I was not going to let history repeat itself. I really would have liked to have taken a crack at that mill.

I also wish my uncle was still with us. He graduated from a highly rated local trade school and landed a job over at in Seattle during WWII as a machinist. After the war, he bought the lathe he ran over there ......... it swings 30" and has a 22' bed.

We urged his son and grandson to take lessons from him but they did not listen. Now all his machine tools including a mill sit and collect dust .......

Mark

[Traffer]

I know this is introducing another topic but it is really sad that so many young folks are oblivious to the great machines of our youth and before. It is so hard to find kids who want to learn how to use their hands these days. Very sad indeed.

[Three44s]

Traffer,

I saw a wreck coming when our so called leaders began expousing that the United States was transforming from a manufacturing base to that of a "service economy"!

We have been sold out! A service economy is dead end!

What manufacturing that remains is largely if not totally based on CNC equipment. I don't rail against CNC but that equipment and people trained with it are not geared towards repair work.

Now we are not only a "service economy" but one that throws everything away.

Mark

[cwheel]

Avoiding the train wrecks isn't much of a problem. Most are caused not getting a part centered, clamped down right, or improperly ground cutting tools. Most of us can avoid these with just a little bit of caution. Regrinding, or sharpening the drills properly is easy to with some practice. A Starrett #604R drill gage is good for hand grinding up to about 1 1/4" drills, after that using the angle head on a combination set work for all of the larger ones up to about 4". Drills blowing up most often are caused by improper grinding. On another note, sure agree with you on the service economy thing. The only thing that is happening in the USA is we are allowing our economy, and standard of living to be exported to other countries. A service economy will never replace manufacturing in our economy without us becoming a third world country. This is the big issue to me, not immigration. GM announced at a shareholders meeting after the taxpayers bailed them out, that 80% of their manufacturing has been moved to China. That means 80% of there American jobs went there as well so they could add the labor costs saved to their bottom line, shameful conduct on their part. Even more shameful that our elected officials allowed it, that is just one example, there are thousands more. Most of those everyday workers now don't have a job, or are working at a much lesser job and can't buy that car they used to make with their own hands or support a decent lifestyle. Saving that drill from the scrap yard and putting it back to work would have been a honor in my working days, sometime we got to do some times as well. My hat is off to the small businessmen that struggle making a living and keeping our economy alive in these tough times.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Good advice as always .......... thank you!

The old school machinist power equipment is as foreign to a newly minted machinist trained on CNC as paper and pencil is to a newly minted mathematician trained on hand calculator and computer.

Neither of these folks in the above example are "using their head" the way the good lord intended them to. You take their special equipment away from them and they are as helpless as a grounded owl.

They say that money is at the root of all evil ......... I say, there must have a lot of evil spread around our politicians both on the right and left to coax them into supporting globalism. I remember the chorus of pols harping on the US transforming in a service economy.

It was obvious from the begining it would lead to an economic disaster and it has.

A service economy is a nation eating it's financial self, our imports far outstrip our exports but that is only the half of it. If we were building our own durable goods, we expand money, the impact is huge. When we import we are merely consuming.

I hope we can reverse this because there is an even greater immediate danger.

If we were thrust into a major widespread war we would be hard pressed to revitalize ourselves in time. Being beholding to foreign sources for our inputs to continue fighting is one thing but even if those sources continue to be allies, the very supply lines would surely become perilous and broken.

Best regards

Mark

[samari46]

20 some odd years ago Long Island New York was home to both Republic and Grumman aircraft companies. Remember driving by and parking lots were full of cars. Last time I went by was all and buildings and all the machinery had been sold through auctions. And if you factor in all the suppliers of tools, parts, machinery as well as taxes paid adds up to a considerable sum. Frank

[cwheel]

Mark, in the beginning of WW2 we were in just that situation. The planners after the war ended set up what they called the machinery reserve branch to hold machinery in reserve for the event of war. In my last job ( the one I retired from ) I was lucky enough to be one of the three people ( federal property screeners ) in our local government that could go into these, draw equipment, and sign for it. It was free, we just had to haul it to our shop. We had a lowboy and a road crew for that job. That large lathe pictured in the post above was one of these, it weighed 60,000 lbs. Paid for with tax dollars, it has to stay government property. Rough and Ready Island in Stockton, CA was one of those places. ( now closed down ) A dozen or so buildings 3 stories high, and one full city block square filled with machinery with a RR spur going through the buildings to move things in and out. Mostly old school manual stuff with some early CNC and NC mixed in. Only one of these nation wide now, Mechanicsburg, PA. I've never been there, don't know what they still have 30 years later. It would be less time transporting this stuff and setting it up to do the job than training a workforce to do the work. That problem has been thought of for war time production needs, just not sure how well it's inventory is maintained now.
Chris

[Three44s]

What our nation accomplished in tooling for WWII is nothing short of amazing but we had something going for us then ..... time.

Today things move so much faster.

Our manufacturing base was really budding by Dec. 7, 1941 and though I am no fan of FDR one has to admit his administration did a fantastic job marshaling production from some pretty unlikely sources into the war effort.

I attended college prior to coming home to farm and ranch and would not trade that knowledge for anything, but "we" have made a horrendous mistake encouraging our youngsters towards college in such crushing numbers. We should be giving them better guidance and undeniably many more of our young need to be going into the trades. Better for them and better for the country.

I have a feeling that the war reserve you are familiar with likely has been squandered. Also today's snow flakes looking at what is likely "old school" machinery and being clueless of what to do with it.

With respect to manufacturing, the advent of CNC allows one to produce parts at a much faster pace with much less man hours but our adversaries share this advantage and with a greater participation of their populations in the trades, we would find ourselves on the short end of that stick as well.

We have arguably the finest military on face of the earth, but in a protracted struggle our fine defense capabilities could make an amazing sprint only to sputter to a stop when the call for repairs goes out and the need for new equipment occurs.

Three 44s

[cwheel]

I could type pages on that subject alone. Anyway Mark, enjoy your new to you drill, be sure to post some pictures when you take a bite with that 2 7/8" drill. In fact, I'd make a point of doing that just to test it under load. Another word of caution. Often the coolant sump on these goes sour over the years. You might consider filling with just water several times, flushing it out, and add some bleach just to kill any mold or bad stuff lurking in the base before refilling with some fresh water soluble oil. Lots of us old machinists have got some nasty infections from coolant sumps with bugs growing in them from our exposed cuts. Have fun with it, I sure would,
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

That's real good advice. The fellow who ran it for the county said he did not use it because of the mess. They used some stuff from an aerosol can ... the empty can is on the tombstone. I don't think that would very economical.

But the concept of cuts and "nasty" water is not something I had considered. I can sure see where that would be a bad deal since the drill generates lots of sharp edges.

Thank you and Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

I'd stay away from those sprays or squeeze cans for all except tapping small holes, and it's expensive to use those as well. Water soluble cutting fluid works well for removing heat from drilling larger holes, lubricates at the same time. On smaller things there is a cheap way to go with this that doesn't cause a mess. At the grocery store they sell those cheap plastic spray bottles. Fill one up with that soluble oil already in the coolant system, and use it where it's a small hole, or where you don't have that much heat. Using the plastic squeeze bottle makes a minimal mess. Doing that also prevents contaminating the coolant sump with a bunch of stuff that doesn't belong there and will be difficult to remove or clean out. A gallon jug of Trim soluble oil from MSC, or others is around $30, and should be enough to mix in a cleaned out sump with 20 gallons of water, it will last for a very long time. When you have the mix right, the coolant is a milky blue. The water evaporates, just add more water, you are good to go again. I liked to clean out coolant sumps about once a year. After filling with water, used the built in pump to clear it out, on about the third cycle, add bleach and let it set overnight. That spray can that the guy from the county was using tells me they weren't drilling very big holes to often, that aerosol can could never be enough drilling bigger holes.
Chris

[W.R.Buchanan]

Saw the pics, and you got yourself a serious hole borin' machine ! Good luck and I hope you get lots of use out of it.

Randy

[Three44s]

Chris,

I don't think they did much big hole drilling either and I thought water soluble oil and water would be hard to beat for cooling and lubrication both in cost and effectiveness.

I also see our tombstone is designed with a pretty good drainage system to recirculate the coolant but it's fairly dirty as it came to us. If it's not well maintained you are not going to get good results, i.e. You are going to be wading in your coolant in no time!

Thank you once more for the guidance on what to buy and how to manage the coolant mixture. Using bleach somewhere in the process had come to mind.

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Randy,

Thank you and I am glad you enjoyed the pics etc.

When I embarked on this project of sorts, I was interested in acquiring a drill press large enough to replace our antuiqe broken press that likely uses mt #2 shanked bits.

I think we accomplished that ........ lol What I did not count on was the big hole capability, nor the ability to clear such a big work piece, nor the corker .... the ability to line bore yet not spend a proverbial "arm and a leg" for it.

Best regards

Mark

[jmorris]

What our nation accomplished in tooling for WWII is nothing short of amazing but we had something going for us then ..... time.

Today things move so much faster.

With respect to manufacturing, the advent of CNC allows one to produce parts at a much faster pace with much less man hours ...

CNC is very nice and with additional automation can make human involvement almost unnecessary.

That said up until two years ago I still ran some of that old WWII equipment, some still had the tags on them from back in the day. They could do more operations, faster than any of the modern machines that cost well over $100,000 ea.

Where the problems came in was if you had your regular "button pusher" (what many "old school" machinists call CNC operators) make a mistake and "crash" the machine. Setting it up again wasn't as easy as replacing say tool #7 and typing in a new offset.

I set them up a few times to have someone crash them, still can't figure out how, it's load, run, empty, return, repeat, in any case for the last few years before he closed down I ran the old machines myself, when they needed a run. Not that I would have wanted to do it every day for 25 years but it was pretty neat to make a few hundred parts on them that from first to last were only .0002" different from one another.

I would have bought them myself if I had the room indoors to keep them as all five still worked fine when they sold for $120 at auction. All went from the building directly to the scrap yard.

[Three44s]

jmorris,

"Button pushers .... " That works me!

I think the technology is fine but the way we have gone with it isn't.

Here's a parallel: When we train pilots we teach them to fly .... period! We don't give them a computer and have them push buttons and sit back and enjoy the marvels of flight. All that cute fuzzy stuff comes later if at all. A button pusher would be doomed if there was an equipment failure or some occurrence outside of the parameters of the computer.

We should be training true "old school" machinists first and transitioning them on to CNC second. That way their brain is engaged. Of course, that costs more money and businesses likely make the decision that it's cheaper to crash their equipment a percentage of the time and pay button pushers less.

Best regards

Mark

[EDG]

I ran a radial arm drill press that was about 2 to 3 times heavier and about 50% larger than your new purchase.

Mostly I drilled thousands of 1" holes in tube sheets. Most of the tube sheets were 48" in diameter and were 1" thick. They were stacked 4 deep and were tack welded together.
There were so many holes drilled that the margin wore off of the drills after a while. We had no drill grinder so I had to sharpen them by hand.

There are only a few pointers that can offer.

1. First the machine has to be bolted down to a good concrete floor so you will not turn it over when the arm is 90 degrees to the base.
Otherwise you might have to make some sort of cross arm base that will keep the center of gravity inside the dimensions of the base.

2. If the column rotation lock is manually powered it is possible that it will make the arm move when you lock it causing the hole to be mis-located. Figure out how your drill press behaves when you lock the column rotation.
3. I caught people chewing tobacco (and probably with colds too) spitting into machine sumps. Get your sump cleaned out and dis-infected and make sure no one spits in it again.

4. Those machines have a lot of exposed metal to get dirty and rusty. You might find an old tarp or equivalent to keep it clean in your barn environment.

[jmorris]

Of course, that costs more money and businesses likely make the decision that it's cheaper to crash their equipment a percentage of the time and pay button pushers less.


Yes, pay a few programmers for many operators and as long as your not doing a lot of one offs, it's cheaper.

To keep the thread closer to topic this is a bad photo but one of the big ones he had. For scale that's a roll in saw to the right and an 8ft fluorescent mounted up high. It sold for less than it cost to move it.

Also I'd watch out for tarps or any cover that might trap condensation, especially one you can't see through. So you think it's protected to uncover it a few months later for it to look like you sprayed it with salt water before you covered it up.

[EDG]

Jim I would suppose you are not familiar with the carp that can blown in on a machine in a farm environment.
Sand and dirt is guaranteed if the machine is not protected.

[woodbutcher]

:D Hi Three44`s.As far as bleach goes use a quality brand such as Clorox.As far as I`m concerned,anything else is just dumping your money down a rat hole.YMMV.And again sir that`s an outstanding score.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Three44s]

EDG,

Thank you for the input, it is much appreciated!

To bolt it down vs. using isolation feet is going to be an important decision. We have to build a separate shop for this drill so we have some time on that one. I do anticipate swinging the arm off the base so bolting it down may our only option.

The arm lock is mechanical on our machine and it needs adjusting. I have the maintenance and operation manual for it.

I will look out for chewers and spitters!

I have some rusting that occurred to our buying this drill to clean up. I'll likely get my spray bottle of Corrosion X and give it a good blast where it's needed, then we are planning on covering it. We have a number of gravel roads up wind of us so dust is ever present during our "dry season".

Thanks again and best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

jmorris,

Your point on tarping the drill is well taken. My first thought was to use a cheap plastic tarp but the condensation issue was on my mind. I will need to cover it but it may have to be a canvas tarp and we will have to uncover it periodically and check to see that our "oiling" is doing what we intend.

Big machine there in the pic!

Thanks again and best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Leo,

Thank you for the input, on thing about it ....... bleach is inexpensive enough there is little point in cutting corners!! LOL!

Best regards

Mark

[ulav8r]

Definitely bolt it down. If the head is extended to the end of the arm and the arm is rotated because the workpiece will not fit on the tombstone, you don't want the press tipping.

[Three44s]

ulav8r,

Yes that would be the scenario we'd be most worried about.

Thank you for your input and best regards

Mark

[jmorris]

Jim I would suppose you are not familiar with the carp that can blown in on a machine in a farm environment.
Sand and dirt is guaranteed if the machine is not protected.

Actually I am, thus my advice.

I have an Atlas/craftsman lathe at our farm in a dirt floor barn for emergency use. Being sandy loam country I covered it (not wrapping it up with intent to trap moisture but just covering it) in a heavy duty out door tarp, a rusty machine was the result.

A good portion of my advice is from mistakes I have made in the past and learned from.

Dust lives on top of everything down there but rust lives under the silver tarp at the top right of the photo, if you don't get a bucket of cosmoline and keep it coated.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/target/autoplaterack/HPIM0395.jpg

It would be ideal to have something that kept dust out, could breath and rodents wouldn't tear it up trying to make a home.

[Three44s]

Well, this all gives me something to ponder ..... to tarp or not and if so ..... what with.

That's why I was thinking something out of canvas to breath?

I have two issues ..... one will be the interim storage in our hay shed. One of our issues there is barn swallows. They are getting ready to do their digging and dabbing as I type this and they love that hay shed ...... the rafters and beams overhead.

The second is how to store the machine once we have made a home for it as there will be extended periods of non-use ....... likely.


I am a big fan of Corrosion X and my thought is to use it and cover with a breathing material.

We have dust generated on some roads but nothing like jmorris experiences. We are dry country during the summer generally but our winters are noted for wide temperature swings over time. You get a lot of frost coming out on big temperature jumps.

I figure any way I go it will be wrong but it's a matter of sorting out the least wrong way and periodically treating with a rust preventative.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Because you have a 3ph generator, might be fun to hook it up once setting in the haybarn, start it up, run through all of the gears and feeds, see what you have. Don't swing the arm off the base footprint for safety. Most likely uses turbine oil in the drill head for lube oil. ( AW46 ) Most likely everything is fine, but now would be a good time to know before anymore money goes into it, or a location for it ??
Chris

[MaryB]

Make a wood frame to hold the tarp up off the machine and put a vent as high up on each side as you can with some window screen duct taped in place... will keep dust/bird droppings off an will breathe to let moisture out. I would still make sure to use a rust preventative though!

[jmorris]

That's why I was thinking something out of canvas to breath?

I have two issues ..... one will be the interim storage in our hay shed. One of our issues there is barn swallows. They are getting ready to do their digging and dabbing...

I am a big fan of Corrosion X and my thought is to use it and cover with a breathing material.

Being able to not trap moisture would be a bonus. Mud daubers are a constant PITA around here, I think I could deal with birds easier.

I used to make all of the "handy spray" application systems for Corrosion X.

http://www.corrosionx.com/images/handi-spray-5-gallon.jpg

http://www.corrosionx.com/images/handi-spray-2-gallon.jpg

If you look close, you can see they are actually propane tanks. Add a fill port and chase the NPT threads in the top with straight threads for the fluid control valve and I machined brass dip tubes in the various lengths to siphon the fluid out.

You might know that Jim has many different formulas of his product, I mostly use the aviation stuff but it's all pretty good stuff.

[Three44s]

Hmmm, I have a lot of old propane tanks!

I was aware that there were different formulas. I have the regular or gun one and the "HD" versions thus far.

We also have a Cub that used to be a PA18A from the factory and after my father bought it ......... and a few years of flying it .......... he had to spring for a major rebuild culminating in rebuilding it with a new ..... non "A" airframe ....... big bucks! Some CorrosionX might have saved there as well.

Mark

[Three44s]

Because you have a 3ph generator, might be fun to hook it up once setting in the haybarn, start it up, run through all of the gears and feeds, see what you have. Don't swing the arm off the base footprint for safety. Most likely uses turbine oil in the drill head for lube oil. ( AW46 ) Most likely everything is fine, but now would be a good time to know before anymore money goes into it, or a location for it ??
Chris

Chris,

Yes ....... it would better to get any bad news before we invest sweat and treasure. To the press's credit, the fellow who ran it for the county said it was working fine right up until the bean counters decided to get rid of it ....... they parked in a shed and it sat there for 1 to 1 1/2 years and then was hauled to the auction yard sometime prior to the 4/15 sale and I suspect that's where most of it's rust formed.

We have to maintenance and operation book (courtesy of the county) for it and it lists the oil type in a way I am not used to but also, we have an invoice dated back in '06 where they bought a 5 gallon can of Chevron oil for it ........ AW 220 machine oil .......

Besides the generator option, I can ..... carefully carry the drill over to our shop and it's 3 ph power for a test.

Thank you and best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Make a wood frame to hold the tarp up off the machine and put a vent as high up on each side as you can with some window screen duct taped in place... will keep dust/bird droppings off an will breathe to let moisture out. I would still make sure to use a rust preventative though!

Mary,

That's a great idea and better than my idea of merely using canvas.

Thank you and best regards

Mark

[Wayne Smith]

Mary's idea is good but you will also have to add something to keep the birds from roosting on it. I.E. keep them out from under the tent. Some sort of wall that drops to the floor. Could be screen if you have it.

[Three44s]

Wayne Smith,

Oh ........... like starlings? LOL!

It's in a hay shed right now and sitting on a pair of RR ties so gathering it up would likely be our only path.

And then there are our grey digger squirrels ........

Seems like some guns fit in here?

I have some fair 20 ga. shotguns along with other gauges and my youngest nephew has a brand new 12 ga. Berretta auto and he's taken up all three of the shotgun sports (trap, skeet and clays) and he's itchin' to get at it ....... (if it moves, it grooves) .....

Thanks and best regards

Mark

[woodbutcher]

:D Hi Mark.For a cover for your treasure,you might try contacting a company that supplies REAL canvas sail cloth for sailboats,it comes in many different weights.A friend in Florida has been using it for years with no problems.Just as suggested,use vents to bleed off any moisture that might be present.It is also very washable.How to wash it is information that can be gotten from the supplier.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[cwheel]

We used to have a great solution to keeping the birds out, a owl. Nothing liked nesting in the haybarn while she was there nesting. Think she might have winter killed, didn't come back this spring. Trouble with that was, she made more of a mess than all of the other nests combined, but 5 cats couldn't do the job on our mice that she did. AW 220?? a little different, but I'd sure use what they recommend. Often condensate gets into the sumps, if it's not milky, I'd use it at least for a test. If milky, I'd drain and replace.

[MaryB]

I have barn swallows that try to nest in the corners under my second story deck. I hate getting dive bombed so i break the nests up and toss them, they usually get the hint to move on! Had a pair that refused to leave, no eggs laid, nest was never finished... they ended up being garden fertilizer after I used a tennis racket on them. I always keep a couple yard sale cheap rackets around, I get the occasional bat in the house...

[Three44s]

We used to have a great solution to keeping the birds out, a owl. Nothing liked nesting in the haybarn while she was there nesting. Think she might have winter killed, didn't come back this spring. Trouble with that was, she made more of a mess than all of the other nests combined, but 5 cats couldn't do the job on our mice that she did. AW 220?? a little different, but I'd sure use what they recommend. Often condensate gets into the sumps, if it's not milky, I'd use it at least for a test. If milky, I'd drain and replace.

Chris,

Those owls are workers for sure!

In the front of the manual someone hand wrote: "Texaco Aircraft 100 oil 50 wt."

Within the lubrication section in print the manufacturer states to use " high grade machine oil, specific gravity .979, Redwood viscosity 990 seconds at 100 degrees F.

Mark

[cwheel]

You might want to call your petroleum supplier and ask about that one. Might cross over to something common. Machine tool manufactures will sometimes spec a odd product, especially if the tool is made off shore. I have a feeling that a good turban oil is what that gear box needs, question might be what weight ?? The thing that's important is that it's clean and free of any water or condensate. I've had to take apart and repair several lathe headstocks where condensate or water got into the gearbox and destroyed the bearings, done a job on the gear train. If you can't keep it in a nice dry shop, only other thing is to change the oil often to enough keep it clean and moisture free. Don't know what to tell you on this one except that on the larger radials I've run, each one ran AW-46 turban oil in the gear box, Carlton, American Hole Wizard, several sizes of Cincinnati Bickford, all the same. A call to your petroleum distributor should clear that one up. I'm sure the salesman would like to steer you towards a product that costs like liquid gold, but my question to them would be will AW-46 do the same job ?? Main point is that if there is milky looking lube oil in that gear case, change it out as soon as you can, if you are using it or letting it just sit under a tarp to prevent internal rust forming in the gear box. A 5 gallon bucket might end up being enough for 2 oil changes on your size drill.
Chris

[Wayne Smith]

I thought of it, Mark, because we just put up screens to keep birds off the blueberries in our back yard. Tenting over it would be useful, but birds will get under it and roost - then acidic bird droppings on the machinery - not good.

I grew up with four floors of laying chickens in the barn in Maine. Barn was 40ftx60ft, so lots of chickens. We had cats, but the barn owls kept most of the mice down. Cats play with their food, terriers will go through a nest and kill them all, and owls eat more than cats!

[Three44s]

Chris,

I think you are right about the presence of water in the gear boxes to be more detrimental than the issue of matching the nature and viscosity of that oil to some minute degree.

Furthermore, Lucas Oil produces and markets a product called Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer that I have a great deal of respect for and it has gear box duty written all over it (Power Punch is the original formula product).

The addition of the Lucas or Power Punch products aid in both how a lubricant "carries up" and how well it resists it's film strength breaking down.

Best regards and thank you

Mark

[Three44s]

I thought of it, Mark, because we just put up screens to keep birds off the blueberries in our back yard. Tenting over it would be useful, but birds will get under it and roost - then acidic bird droppings on the machinery - not good.

I grew up with four floors of laying chickens in the barn in Maine. Barn was 40ftx60ft, so lots of chickens. We had cats, but the barn owls kept most of the mice down. Cats play with their food, terriers will go through a nest and kill them all, and owls eat more than cats!

Hmmm,

I think the cats on your family farm were probably too distracted by all those tasty feathered friends to remember that borrowed phrase: Mice, it's what's for dinner!

Best regards

Mark

[Wayne Smith]

An adult laying chicken will peck a cat to death if necessary, and dozens of them definitely will. They left the chickens alone, but with up to 21 cats/kittens we had few mice.

[Three44s]

An adult laying chicken will peck a cat to death if necessary, and dozens of them definitely will. They left the chickens alone, but with up to 21 cats/kittens we had few mice.

Wayne,

I was thinking of hatchlings and other younger birds.

Best regards and thank you

Mark

[cwheel]

Mark, there is one last thing I can think of that might need passing off if your main intent might be line boring. When you lower your spindle on that drill, you will notice a slot milled into the spindle used to drift out Morse tapers and change tools. When doing line boring, one of the reasons for making your own bars and tapers is to avoid using Morse taper adapter sleeves. Any bar you use for boring should be a proper sized taper, with the proper sized tang for your spindle. When your tooling is inserted into the spindle, you need to have a hole drilled and tapped into the tang of the proper size to retain the bar. We often used a large set screw that would lock the bar in the taper. This hole that was drilled and tapped into the tang of the boring bar was placed into the tang so when the set screw was inserted it would rest on the bottom of the extraction slot in the bar. With the locking screw shorter than the spindle's diameter, the spindle could still go up fully. This same locking screw idea is used with a boring head, when tapping single point, or any time there was a uneven load on the spindle to retain the tooling. Not necessary when drilling. If you have seen this done, my apologies for mentioning it, if you haven't see a line boring setup on a radial, it's something to think about, could prevent messing up a job when the tooling falls out of the spindle.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Thanks again for the input. I've heard or read some of what you post but not all previously so it's good you thought of it!

For point of reference, our drill has two slots and I have read that it is an advantage to have both. Thanks to your help I am a little clearer on what is involved to line bore.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Don't recall ever working on a radial with 2 sets of slots, but I sure haven't seen it all, or had time on that brand radial. All I do know is that in some point in time you will end up getting a nice boring head for that ( same as a milling machine, only bigger ) and you will want to be sure that the shank end is threaded so the side load doesn't pop it off the taper. Locking boring bars and heads into the spindle slot is a must do to keep the tooling from self extracting under side cutting loads and messing up jobs. A added benefit of the boring head is that depending on the speeds and feeds available, you can cut threads in larger internal holes on most of these. I personally haven't cut threads in a hole smaller than 2" but it works just fine.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I know I read about "two slots" somewhere. I found it:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/can-radial-arm-drill-used-boring-96672/

I must admit I am quite green at this game and am at the "learning stage".

Best regards and thanks again

Mark

[cwheel]

After reading the article, thinking it was likely that our Carlton, and the American hole Wizard had double slots as well. The Carlton had a 21" column and at least 8' of arm, fair sized machine. American was just a little smaller. More likely after being retired for the last 11 years, my memory could be to blame for not being able to fully remember the setup properly. But I do remember using the set screw through the tang on the Carlton to hold the boring tools, and how important that was to do. Sure do remember pulling 3/8" of steel per side of a bore with no effort, impressive cutting action with this set up.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I have been looking all over to get a sense of what a proper fastening of a boring bar to our drill press would look like.

I found this video a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMM_lJ7q6JY

It does not get me very far about the fastening issue but it was an early inspiration on the fact that line boring was quite do able.

I am not close to a line boring project so there is no direct urgency ....... I am just trying to get a feel for what I may be looking for down the road as to hardware needed in the future.

Thanks as always and best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Lots of options just opened up to you Mark with that radial. That video is a good example of a proper setup and how it's done. Another thing to consider to support the end of a bar is just a plain old pillow block bearing clamped to the side of your table side with the clamping slots. Pillow block bearing will buy you much more spindle travel with the bar than a flange mount will. Lots of other things you can do as well that includes making your own bar end support out of a large chunk of angle and making your own bearing insert out of bronze.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

What I am not understanding is how one fastens the MT so that it does not work out from the side thrust from a boring bar. I get the "why" .... I just have not grasped the how.

With respect to the pilot bearing usage, one fellow at a machinist forum mentioned using a bearing on both ends of his boring bar and a pair of u-joints between the spindle and the bar to drive it. The spindle rotated the bar and provided lateral control but that's all. He preferred such a set up since it took the slack in the spindle bearings on his drill completely out of the equation.

Thank you and best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Retaining the boring bar, or boring head is simple and done in several ways. Best way to think about this is that your boring bar needs to be retained in the spindle much like a draw bar in a milling machine. Your radial doesn't have a through hole in the spindle, and tools have to be retained either by the spindle taper, or something from the side of the spindle. First, the boring bar should be hand made for your particular machine. Never use a morse taper adapter on a single point tool, side load will extract the tool from the spindle from the side cutting load of the tool. Making the boring bar with the largest morse taper that will fit in the spindle as a part of the bar so it's a direct fit. The setup that I've used had the tang of the boring bar taper drilled and tapped all the way through for a large set screw that would seat in the bottom of the slot in the spindle used to extract the taper. This set screw would keep the taper seated during the side load exerted by the cutter under a cut. The other way that I've seen done is to fit a tapered key into the morse taper shank of the boring bar. ( 1/8" per foot taper, just like a taper pin ) The lower slot in your spindle would be excellent for fitting a taper key to hold a bar. When the cross key is seated it will just barely touch the bottom of the extraction slot in the spindle and exert upward pressure on the boring bar at the same time. Same thing happens with the shank of a precision boring head shank when used. The overall length of the key should fit below flush with the spindle for full overall travel of the spindle. Same principal as a drawbar on a milling machine. To bad you live so far away, be easier to show you than explain. And as far as bar supports go, I'm sure there are lots of good setups out there and everyone will have their own opinions. I have found that when line boring ( a setup where you might be machining for a steel bushing at either end of something like bushings on that backhoe arm ) that the spindle and only 1 boring bar end support on the other side of the work gives best results, has the best cut and cleanest finish, least chatter. Multiple supports, and U joints are just asking for tool chatter and misalignment, extra stress on the boring bar. Just a personal opinion. After a lifetime of doing this I've learned everyone does things differently, some better than others. I'll be the first to say that there are lots of different ways to do this, some produce better results than others though.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Thank you again for your assistance!

Don't dwell on not being face to face, as you've done a great job of explaining some good ways of working around mounting a bar. While I don't fully understand it all yet, it is getting clearer ..... much clearer in fact.

I can also print off a copy of your post and have a friend who retired from FMC look this over and he will likely get it right off. If he were to get buffaloed there are a plenty of repair shops with some pretty savvy machinists who can likely help me.

The fact that there are no projects looming on the horizon gives us more time to prepare. Also having more than one method to fasten a bar is good.

With your great help and drawing from local folks this won't be difficult!

Thank you

Mark

[cwheel]

Mark, thinking that is the best answer yet. First setup, let a friend who has done this give you a hand. I'm sure you are going to pick it up right away after that. Easier to see done than describe.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I am not sure he has ran a boring bar off a radial press but during his working years he did a lot of innovative stuff and he has his own lathe, mill press etc. and the "fire" is still there at the age of 90 something. All that and he is self taught ..... no formal training.

Another machinist I know now teaches at the local trade school. I saw his innovation skills full on when at his family's shop he built a hybrid flywheel for a farm tractor for us. His father said it could not be done! My father believed the son had the bull by the horns and could do it!

We needed the rear half of one flywheel and the front half of another in one unit as we converted to a large Cummings engine but we also had to retain the live pro from the original Case engine.

The conversion has been a home run for the past twenty years.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

I watched a friend re-bore a airplane engine he restored on one of our smaller radials many years ago. It turned out fine and passed inspection. ( airplane was a Funk brand ) That airplane flew for many years with that restoration before the owner passed of natural causes. What you can do with yours will only be limited by what you can imagine doing. Sad to see many of these old school skills have now moved off shore along with most of our manufacturing capabilities. If our leadership thinks a service economy is somehow going to replace manufacturing, they are sadly mistaken.
Chris

[William Yanda]

DRILL PRESS FOSDICK 24" X 36" TABLE, 3 MT, 3 PHASE 12/21 (https://rochester.craigslist.org/tls/6091337094.html) $2000 (ROCHESTER)

[Three44s]

William Yanda,

Yes, a regular drill but a nice one and I could have settled for such a unit but I am glad I was successful in scoring the one I did ........ so much more capability and less bucks.

Chris,

You hit the nail on the head ........... service economy ........ dead end ....... manufacturing economy ....... all "engines go" ........ you have better paying jobs and the money supply expanding without just blindly running the printing presses with nothing to show for it.

Not only that but the service economy thrives if there is a manufacturing base behind it.

But I don't think that the old school skills are being shipped off shore ... they are just dying on the vine ......... while overseas, they are just training humans to be robots tending to real robots.

I think like you say ......... once I get a line bore under my belt with a local machinists help .......... I'll be a lot better equiped.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Nice old drill press William Yanda, but I think yours for $2000 is older, and much smaller than what Mark bought home for $500. William, I know machinery prices very widely depending on your area, and the demand factor, but around here you would be lucky to see $400 for it. Would go nice in a farm shop through, someone will want it. I think the owner needs to do a big re-think on what he expects to have someone pay for it if he wants it to sell. Mark, I believe your right about having a machinist friend help you with your first setup. After the first setup, you will only be limited by the size you can fit into that radial and be able to line bore and re-bush anything you own.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I think the key as you posted a short time ago is to get the boring bar driven end built right the first time. The pilot will be a piece of cake, placing it and holding it requires some care so the necessary cuts can be accomplished without bottoming out the bar either in the pilot bearing or the press's base or the floor of the room the press is installed in.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

That's exactly right. Making the bar with the largest taper that will fit that radial, and the cross key or setscrew to retain it seated in the spindle. A pillow block bearing clamped to the top of the side of your table will give you the max stroke. Clearance between the bar and the pillow block bearing should be a easy slip fit with the bar. Sometimes I'd choose a pillow block bearing that matched the largest boring bar dia. I had with available with that machine. You can always make and install a bushing in the larger pillow block bearing that matches a smaller bar with a slip fit. Larger pillow block seams to handle vibration better than the small ones do, more mass. Just try to keep the chips away from the slide fit so things don't get tight and jamb up. You can measure what thickness of a line bore is possible before making your bars. Take the arm all the way to the top, measure from the bottom of the spindle to where a shaft would pass through a pillow block on the side of the table, that + the OAL of the taper gives you the OAL of the bar to make. That will be the max size, you might want shorter. Of course I'd check the spindle stroke to see if it will travel that far.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Yes it makes no sense to make a bar that requires an adapter, just another place for looseness.

I had not thought about the chips jamming the bar in the pilot bearing. Maybe I could make a deflector to haze much of it away? It would have to be easily and quick to remove because it would seem that the fine stuff would cause more trouble than the big chips would.

A cluster of strategically placed magnets that remove for easy cleaning??

You mentioned the length of spindle stroke. Is it practical to design a MT lock for a boring bar that still allows the spindle to retract fully to maintain as much stroke as possible?

I am thinking if this line boring really takes off, that a shorter bar or two are likely to be wanted like you suggest. Lots of possibilities!

On another note, we pulled out the SP hay baler for some TLC prior to hay harvest. This allows us to move the press easier and more safely to where we have power to test it. We might be making some test chips fairly soon ... hooray!

Thanks again and best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

I'm going to assume that you have air in your shop, having a air nozzle close to the job, low pressure, 40 psi or so, while boring to clear the chips when needed is all that's necessary. Most cases with larger holes, coolant keeps things well flushed out. Finish cuts with fine chips being produced using a lite cutting oil for lube are the worse culprits. A small chip getting into the pilot on a finish cut will change the size of the bore by pushing the bar in one direction or another. Full travel with the spindle is achieved by seating the shank key below flush in the spindle on both sides of the spindle. I'm picturing that your jobs are going to be in the smaller size range because you seam to be talking about pin and bushing jobs in equipment ?? Because of this, thinking the stuff you would be line boring would be smaller than 2 1/2" ?? A easier way to do this is to do the same setup for line boring, and bore about 1/16" small. Come back with a shell reamer in the same hole going all the way through both holes in the same setup. Easier than getting exactly the right tool offset in the bar, and gets it done in one pass. No chips to fight in the pilot bearing as well, always the right size. To make this work, you still need to rough bore with the bar first to keep things in alignment. The hay is getting tall here as well, thinking the swathers should take to the fields for the first cut here in the next 2 or 3 weeks. Outside of getting my little garden in, my time is being spent riding the tractor with the brush hog mowing weeds. Weather stays good, another 2 1/2 acres this afternoon.
Chris

[woodbutcher]

:smile: A little FYI on the magnet to collect the chips.Put a cloth around the magnet.Then when its time to get rid of the chips,just take the magnet to the trash bin and remove the cloth covering and the chips are gone in a hurry.No muss,no fuss.
Good luck.have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Three44s]

woodbutcher,

That is a very useful tip!

It is so obvious but one that I had not thought of. I can already see using it for many magnet usage and a paper towel might be employed sometimes and just discard the whole kit and caboodle.

Thank you and best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Chris,

Yes we have air and I figured we would run a line over to the structure I am envisioning we need to construct for the press.

I think the larger bore jobs would run to about 4 to 5 inches.

There is a little bit of hay going down in our area but not much yet and none on our place yet. I have some junk were toying with whacking and using it as a rain draw. LOL!

You cut it so Mother Nature vents on the junk and runs out of steam in time for the good stuff to be harvested free of rain. (I always lose that "bet" and you'd think I would learn that you "can't fool her")

Best regards and thank you

Mark

[cwheel]

Funny how that rain thing goes, 3 cuts a year here, almost always during one of the cuts we get rain, usually thunder storms. Sure see the farmers scramble to save it, the rakes come out. Not to be joked about though, serious business, that's what puts the food on their table, always wish them the best. Farming is very hard work and a little bit of luck. 4-5" bore jobs should go well on your new radial, you must have some big stuff.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

The larger pins would be on the excavators on the main booms, but the press may not have enough elevation travel for the base of the boom on the largest ones. It's ok though, for the price I paid for it, I can't complain.

Farmers joke plenty about the rain on their hay, don't worry about it. If you are a hay grower and don't have a thick skin you are either a rank newbie or in need of finding a new profession!

My wife generally gives me the "business" when we get rained on by asking if it got a good wash and rinsing? Quite a bit of our hay goes to our beef cows and we hand out green tinted glasses to the bossies that complain.

Also there is a lot of degrees of damage and a slight discount is just often just par for the course. When your crop comes off black from two weeks straight of storms that's when the joking gets pretty unappreciated. You know when that's happening when many growers are raking practically in "the rain" since the hay contacting the ground is threatening to rot and air must be gotten to it no matter the forecast. If the hay gets rain when it's freshly cut that is no problem at all but if it's on the verge of being baled that is not good.

The other crop that's quite susceptible are cherries. Don't tease a cherry grower about rain if it's close to picking. It is said that they can stay in business with a good quality crop with good prices if the hit that combination 2 out of 10 years. Don't know if I could maintain my sanity living like that.

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Beginning to see why you need the larger lathe to go with that radial having equipment that big. I rebuilt the backhoe ( JD #8 ) on my little JD 970 TLB when I first got it well used, the largest pin was 1 1/2" on that little guy, small enough to fit on my milling machine for boring job. Those excavators must be quite large with pins that big. Our hay is mostly exported to California, some stays here for the new local dairy with 3000 or so cows, some stays for the feed lots. It's almost the only crop grown here. Farming, with a few of us retirees mixed in makes this a nice peaceful place to live, almost crime free.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

There are three excavators that my brother has that are fair size ..... two JD 892's and a recently added Cat 330 and a Cat backhoe. He also has a couple "200" class excavators as well. We at the farm have a Komatsu 200 and a Case backhoe.

We also have some dozers at the farm, a couple vintage D7's and our big cat, a D9G. I am thinking about some of our past wrecks with front idlers and can see some possibilities with the press.

It looks like once one gets a project under the belt or two, the old imagination will probably start to roll. I sure wish my late uncle was still with us. He trained at a local trade school prior to WWII and worked at the Bremerton Shipyard during the war. At the end of the conflict he bought the lathe he ran there, it swings 30" and has a bed 22' long with a taper attachment. He brought it home to a neighboring community to a farm he bought there.

Anyway he would have really ate up this project and would certainly gave me a hand getting at it. You see his son and grand son were always too busy to really get some time with him to get schooled on his tools, that lathe and a mill he also acquired along the way. The equipment just sits there, now 21 years since his passing. We warned them repeatedly that they would lose him someday and they'd better get on the stick but to no avail.

On our farm, my father never had the formal training that his older brother acquired but he bought two lathes, both three phase, one swings 22" but a really short bed of 6' and the second lathe bought because it was a heck of a bargain swings 16" perhaps and a bed around six feet.

We are not "machinists" by any stretch of the imagination, we are farmers with a couple of lathes and perform some rudimentary stuff with them.

It's getting dark over the mountains from where the storms generally approach ....... we ran the swather around to "antagonize" Mother Nature a little today. Rain soon?

My theory is that drugs is and will bring crime into just about square inch of God's green earth given enough time. Norman Rockwell's America is just about non-existent , sadly.

Best regards and thanks!

Mark

[MaryB]

Memories, Grandpa had a D9 that he used when he was hired to make roads into new areas for houses. I learned to drive it when I was 12! Not much stopped it except the really big granite boulders frost pushed up. Hit one of those and dead stop... one we dug out the top half was as big as a house on the part we exposed. Got to watch that get drilled and blasted...

[cwheel]

Well Mark, no need to be a machinist to make good parts and repairs. Sometimes you might need to talk to different folks, sometimes look it up, but if your patent and thoughtful, you will get it done and save a ton of money. Always a learning process. We are going to have the same problem in my family when I pass on. Three generations of machinists ends with me. Bet they will have fun trying to figure out what stuff is just in the tool boxes, some hand made stuff back to the early 1900's. Time passes on I guess, and things change. Another 5 acres brush hogged today, beautiful day to be outside doing it.
Chris

[Three44s]

Mary,

A great big Cat is a great piece of equipment to operate unless you get them stuck. They always say you have not really ran one until you have gotten one hung up or buried. But when you "lose" the biggest one you've got you are in a real pickle .... nothing man enough to pull you out!

The lucky thing about ours is that it has a hydraulic blade and a four barrel parralellagram ripper. Our main operator for several years was real experienced around mud with big cats because he spent more than half his adult life in Alaska running them in some pretty interesting terra not so firma.

He would use the blade and ripper frame to break the suction around the cat, set it back onto the tracks and inch it, repeat, repeat over and over. I don't think he ever had to have assistance, but he knew the limitations and when to bring in dry dirt to mix in. This was usually in push loading our scrapers for some bodies frost pond construct. We usually refrained from working in muck when ever possible though as it is hard on equipment. If we could time it we'd wait till ground was dried out.

I have always enjoyed running the crawlers but if we are push loading, I much prefer to run scrapper as they are much more challenging and interesting .... every load is different and if you are running in a pack the fill area is going to be a surprise because one or more of your "pack" have changed things since you were there a few minutes ago. Think in terms of dump truck loads .... our cycle time has been as short as six and half minutes ..... two of the "cans" haul 30 yds heaped and one moves 40 yds. One cycle ... equals ten full sized dump trucks ... 100 yds. Never in the mud with that 40 yard can as it would be like a wet noodle since it steers by way of a separate steer axle instead of big hydraulic cylinders.

Even in a part of a day you feel pretty good about what you've accomplished.

Best regards

Mark

[Three44s]

Chris,

Our lathe that swings 22" has a four jaw chuck and we have a dial indicator so it's a matter of what we want to tackle. A lot of times it's a question whether it's more prudent to take it to town or do it ourselves versus doing our other work.

Our other lathe is a three jaw. We do quick and fast stuff on it.

Both lathes need a bunch of work to tighten them up. We find there are fewer and fewer people to talk to though about old school equipment.

Sounds like maybe you'll have your bush hogging done pretty soon! Congrats!

Mark

[cwheel]

I've always preferred a 4 jaw chuck for one of a kind work. Most old 3 jaw chucks will hold round work, but are sprung to some degree, run out of round. Rather dial it in if I can. Guess that's why I've got such a pile of dial indicators and different bases built up from over the years. Most of those old lathes can be rebuilt, and most likely have been already. Nice winter maintenance job if you choose to do it. Chunks are easy enough to come by, lots of them being sold for scrap prices. You will need some larger ones, but they are out there and cheap. Ebay is a poor choice for chucks, shipping will be more than the chuck. We were offered stuff like that all the time. Close to done with the brush hog, one more day to ride and cut. Mid summer, get to do it again. Brake is over, back to work,
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

The stuff we do on our old three jaw you could by an angle grinder and a die grinder, it is pretty rough house stuff.

Glad you have about wrapped up your first round of mowing. Have you ever thought about renting it out to a bunch of Combination Swather/Balers?

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Our irrigation ditch runs across the property. Neighbors swather would sure get through the front half it could access, very fast, but it wouldn't cross the ditch ( no bridges ) and get the other side. I'd have to brush hog the other sides of the ditch with the tractor regardless because of access. Throw the tractor into 4wd and climb right across. Mowing is for wildfire defensible space on old alfalfa fields that have been subdivided. Aside from the sore back from bouncing on the tractor with a 5' brush hog on 15 acres cutting it, it's almost a pleasant job. Done now, later in midsummer do it again.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

I was referring to livestock

No sections or shear pins to replace

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Livestock would take care of the problem for sure, at least it did when we had them. We got rid of the horses and goats 5 years back. It served as a anchor for us keeping us here and not traveling out for to long. Wanted to be able to lock the house and gate, drive away for a week or two, that doesn't go over well with critters. Brushhog is the price paid for not having the critters to feed, so far, it's been a fair trade off so far. A gallon of diesel per acre is much cheaper than a squeeze of hay a few times a year.
Chris

[Three44s]

Chris,

Yes, I know how livestock ties a person down .......... LOL!

Do you suppose they will come up with a robotic bush hog that runs like the robotic vacuums? Run off solar power perhaps?

But then if they linked artificial smarts to the robotic mower things could get scarry ..........

The night of the bush hog rampage?

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Robotic brush hogs ?? I sure wouldn't want to be around one, I see a rock, I stop, move it and mow on. Don't see the rock, you know what happens. Some things like this, and that radial drill are better served with a operator running them.
Chris

[Three44s]

Yes indeed!

Mark

[Three44s]

Chris,

I sent you a pm, did you get it!

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

Hi Mark,
Sorry for the delay, I got wrapped up in other things away from the computer. ( installing irrigation head gates with a neighbor ) I sent a reply, be nice to see pics of the new/old iron.
Chris

[Three44s]

Thanks again Chris!

I might start a new thread for that one ... but so many possible names?

I could run with: This Old Iron Pile ....?

A long time neighbor came for hay one day and we had "resurrected" an International 6x6 of WWII vintage that has our old silage box on it.

He asked when did we get that? I informed him we'd had that since the late 40's or very early fifties!

He asked where it had been parked? I answered ... " Oh, out back!"

With a chuckle he said, "Oh, I bet you have a lot of "treasures" back there!

I held my laughter long enough to reply in the affirmative!

So back to a title .... I might be opening a "pandora's box" with that one .... lol!!

Best regards

Mark

[cwheel]

New title ?? might be time with the new stuff, and you might get a few more different opinions and ideas in the process. For the less than $500 you paid for the new stuff, if you salvage just one of them, and are able press it back into service, you are way ahead $ wise. Way back when I bought my mill and lathe, the DRO for the mill cost 3 times more than what you paid for those last 3 machines. Sounds like in your operation, it's about keeping the machines running longer that make your living, in the end it will show in your bottom line. Having some fun along the way, making your business successful is always worth doing as well. It will be fun seeing pics of your new stuff.
Chris