Boolit Skid?

[sutherpride59]

So I just got back from the range shooting my beretta .45 px4 and it was not a good day. I loaded some 225grn flat round nose and 217 grn swc over 3.8grn of Hogdon clays. The alloy was 50WW/50PB + 2%Sn by weight all air cooled. They were sized to .452 and lubed with Felix lube. I seated them both to the end of the driving bands. I was using CCI large standard pistol primers for all these. The 225s chronoed at a 6round average of 781, the 217 SWCs a 6 round average of 793.

Now that all the data is out of the way the problem I was havei g is that my rounds are landing in a fan pattern high and left. The flat round nose are doing it worse with a 6" group at 25yards and the SWCs are doing the same in about a 4.5" group in the same fan like pattern. What gives? Is this because of boolit skid? Do I need to use a harder alloy for my speed?

I was having the same problem but worse with a softer lube. I tried shooting off hand with a super loose grip, a very hard grip, locked arms, bent arms, from a sand bag, with my arms resting on a sand bag, and braced as hard as I can against several sand bags. Nothing made it better.

Now you may say you're breaking your wrist or anticipating in a funny way but nope. I have some boolits I cast almost a year ago that were way too much Sn, I think It was about 10%sn and the rest pure WW alloy. These rounds gave me a 1.5" group at 25 yards 2 months ago. I shot some of these today and I had a 1.72" group center to center at 25 yards off hand. Theses were seated to the same depth as the other SWCs but weigh 208 grains and are sitting over 3.6 grains of hogdon clays, lubed with LLA, and sized to .452

Now like I said my best guess to fix the problem is to try a harder alloy, maybe just water quench with my 50/50 alloy and see what happens. The reason I think it's because they are too soft is mostly because the 225 rfn have the worse accuracy and the shortest driving band, the 217grn SWCs are bad but not as bad and have a longer driving band, and my way too hard SWCs are shooting great even with very mild leading.

Also if my rounds are too soft at a 50/50 mix wouldn't that go with the disproven theory that harder lead is better than softer in pistols?

Let me know what y'all think!

[RobS]

When did you reload your boolits. It takes time to age harden so reloading too soon can create a situation where the boolit is swage down in the case upon seating.

[44man]

In 63 years with handguns I have never been able to shoot soft boolits. Even 50-50 oven hardened are worthless. Only way I got close was to GC them.
Try WD straight WW once, let them age a week or so before loading.

[TexasGrunt]

I shoot 50/50 COWW/pure in my .45 ACP all the time. I shoot the same in every pistol, .38 SPL, .357 Mag, 10MM, .44 Mag and have no problems. However I don't use lube. I either Hi-Tek or PC.

[sutherpride59]

RobS you may have a point I cast these and reloaded them the same day and shot them maybe 5 days later. I should mention that I am using a very light crimp for all these and have ZERO leading. If it was a boolit fit issue I feel like I would have some leading going on to some degree for sure. I will never PC my boolits you can't make me!

i guess the thing that has me floored is the amount of people on this forum that have told me not to worry about my alloy for 45 when it comes to accuracy that 50/50 air cooled is just fine and in "From I got to target" he talks about people getting bad accuracy from shooting to hard of lead and that we often shoot too hard of lead. I'm starting to throw the BS flag on that. Maybe there is something else going on here with the boolits I just can't see. I wish I could have found a couple in the berm but I looked to no avail.

[runfiverun]

well so far all you've seen is an alloy with more tin than antimony and hasn't fully age hardened doesn't shoot well in YOUR reloading and pistol combination.

lets look at what we are working with here.
first the rifling in the barrel
is it shallow and wide or narrow and taller?
shallow and wide generally wants a bit more antimony in the alloy and the higher bhn that accompanies it..
taller and narrow will do fine with a softer alloy.

you need to examine each step of your process and what it's outcome is before condemning one piece of the puzzle.

[OS OK]

I'd say to speed those rounds up to 850 FPS and that'll be the end of it.

And...for goodness sake...don't ever PC them!

[44MAG#1]

Your at Bullseye velocity levels. Something else is wrong other than velocity. Did you start out with a clean barrel? I never put much stock in any shooting with a cast bullet, boolit, projectile, missle or anything else you want to call it, unless my barrel has had many cast through it. Say at least a hundred rounds then pay attention. I am not one,of the ones that likes to run home and start brushing my barrel and swabbing it to pristine levels. In fact when using cast the only time I clean it is when going to jacketed.

[sutherpride59]

I'm not condemning anything, heck if nothing else I'm starting to lean towards the fact that I needed to let my boolits age harden for a couple of weeks before I went off wasting them putting them down range. I just bought a Lee master press so I may have jumped the gun(pun absolutely intended) on loading these before I gave them enough time to harden up. I also need to start testing my hardness before loading and take better notes.

[sutherpride59]

I did start with a clean barrel...... like a month ago lol. The first time I cleaned it was halfway through shooting I ran a patch with oil and a pinch of bronze wool down the barrel to clean out any possible whatever could cause these terrible groups. Then I ran a Cooper brush through the barrel, a few dry patches and started shooting again. My groups did not get better or worse. This gun alone has at least 500+ cast boolits through it and I haven't shot copper since I started casting about a year ago.

[BNE]

50/50/2 is my "Go To" mix for pistols. My .45 shoots them the best. That being said, I have no advice.... but I want to see what the experts tell you!

[Whitespider]

I make no claim to be an expert, but I can say I've never had much luck shooting boolits that ain't been given some time to age. I like to get them lube-sized as soon as I can after casting, mostly because a "green" boolit seems to require less effort on the handle. Then I like to give them at least 10 days or so after lube-sizing before stuffing them into brass cases.

Of course, life don't always work out exactly like you want; sometimes I have a pile of boolits waiting to be lube-sized for weeks... but still like to give them 10 days or so after lube-sizing before loading.

Just my unsolicited 2¢
*

[OS OK]

I would imagine that pistol is sprung for 230 grain ball ammo and IIRC'ly it runs @ about 850 FPS...that's why I say speed those lightweight rounds up so they are operating the springs closer to what the 230's would do.

[243winxb]

To much taper crimp, like before or using a FCD is my guess.

[sutherpride59]

To much taper crimp, like before or using a FCD is my guess.

Lol no trust me it's not the crimp my crimp is just enough to take the bell out of the cases. It is a very light crimp indeed and the boolits take almost no effort to seat so I doubt they are being swaged down by the seating operation. I think the fact that I have zero leading at all after 500 rounds is evidence enough it's not a size issue or anything being squished out of size. That is a good point just not a likely source of my problem.

[Soundguy]

50/50/2

if the 50/50 was COWW and lead.. you are probably looking at about 10 bhn as cast.

If it was SOWW and lead.. you could be looking at 8 BHN.

Have you shot any into a dirt pile so that you can dig out and see the engraving on the projectile? that will tell you a few things. ( also if there is any lube left )

[44man]

I have found a few things with the ACP. The case is small and only certain powders can be used, all pretty fast so pressure rise is fast, velocity does not matter.
Next is they have too large a primer. We went to SP brass. What happens is the boolit is driven into the rifling a little, then BOOM, the powder reaches peak. This is very evident in an ACP revolver.
I would change brass, use the slowest powder that can be used and make boolits harder.

[44MAG#1]

I try to taper crimp to .469" on the case mouth on the 45Auto. Of course I tend to taper crimp somewhat heavier than most. Seems to work well.

[sutherpride59]

I water quenched some 50/50 last night. So we will see what the bhn comes out to in a couple of days. I did some comparisons with the boolits that were spot on and the ones that weren't and what I found was the know good load used a 207grn swc at 11BHN over 3.6grn of hogdon clays with a light crimp. My crappy load was a 218 grn swc at 9.8BHN over 3.8grn of hogdon clays. Both same primer and lightly crimped. What I'm guessing is that from reading the pressure write up in the Lee second edition their is a point where you are at the perfect hardness and as soon as you step over that point it's like falling off the edge of a cliff, your accuracy goes to ****. Probably from boolit skid and all sorts of stuff. My two loads aren't that far off from each other but one performed magnificently and the other was garbage. I think I went off the cliff. So with a harder alloy evidence would point to success provided this alloy isn't too hard. We shall see, I'm going to do a step ladder load and try to confirm my results.

[gray wolf]

May I ask a simple ?
you say you have about 500 rounds down range with bullets you cast, loaded, lubed and shot before. your accuracy was good, better, great or the same ?
If it was better then what in heck did you change ?
Simple ? that should have a simple answer.

Forget the mystery about loading 45 ACP, correct sizing, almost any alloy works,
You don't need special coatings, don't need water dropped, you don't need special primers, and I doubt the recoil spring has any influence.

If you have any rounds left, pull a couple and see if they are the same size they were before you loaded them. Thinking here if they were small cause you loaded to soon you would have leading before your accuracy went so far south.

25 yards, how were you shooting, standing ? bags ? any change with that ?
Reverse engineer what you did and see if you can find the problem.

[MT Chambers]

Retrieving a fired cast bullet can tell you alot by measuring the rifling marks near the base of the bullet, if done right it can tell you if the bullet skidded at all. You would measure against another bullet from the same barrel that you know did not skid.

[popper]

fan pattern high and left Pic of a target would help. Either mis-shaping the nose on chambering or soft alloy base is getting mis-shaped when firing. Softer lube points in this direction - LG collapses. I've seen it with non-flat base, would make a circle if you shoot enough rounds. If it's not leading, it's not skidding.

[sutherpride59]

Well my water quench SWCs came out at 218 grains at 15BHN, went and shot them today with a "step ladder" load(going from starting load to near max) and I got some nice clean groups. I switched to W231 just to see if Clays wasn't pushing hard enough to get a good bore seal. I guess my 50/50 just needed to age harden a bit more for it to have been effective. Either way water quenching these they hardened a lot quicker and I got some very nice groups out of my PX4. Also I have to eat a little crow, someone mentioned that it could have been my crimp. Well I checked my crimp and I may have been a bit too excessive on my crimp, not by much but I did adjust my crimping due to make it a very light crimp. This is a 10 shot group at 25 yards. I still need to drift my sights a hair more.

[GooseGestapo]

SLUG YOUR BORE!!!
My Taurus PT99 has a .358" bore. "Needs" at least a .358" sized boolit to shoot decent.

[sutherpride59]

I slugged the bore on all my pistols and did a pound cast of all my rifles when I first started casting. All 3 of my 45's are .452. My beretta is .4522 from what the mic says.