S&W 500 Bullet (improved for PP)

[54bore]

As previously mentioned in my .492-550 Thread, I followed through with what i said i was gonna do and sent 2 S&W 500 bullets from my Lee Mold to Tom at Accurate molds and had him make a few changes to it, the biggest one being the body Diameter, i had him shave it down to .494 from .503 (My Lee mold dropped bullets at .503) The other change i had him make was to lose the Gas Check, no need for the Gas Check since its being Paper Patched. I will be testing this bullet heavily when the mold arrives, anyone looking at a more Custom approach to a Well Proven Big Game bullet design might wanna check this one out. It is now in Tom's Catalog

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[idahoron]

These should shoot very very well!!

[54bore]

These should shoot very very well!!

High hopes for it Ron!! I will send you a bunch of these to test, and or the mold. This S&W .500 Bullet design is a WELL proven Big Game Hammer by you!!

[Nobade]

Nice! That ought to do the trick. You could even drop the lube grooves and make it a slick, it would work fine in muzzle loaders.

-Nobade

[54bore]

Nice! That ought to do the trick. You could even drop the lube grooves and make it a slick, it would work fine in muzzle loaders.

-Nobade

I wanted to keep the weight as close as possible to the original bullet, by reducing the overall body diameter, but filling in the Gas check closely equaled it out. I wanted to keep the bullet as close as possible in every way to the Original Lee C501-440-RF bullet, Except the Body Diameter and Gas Check. If you were to go with a solid walled PP bullet it would get HEAVY, heavier then i wanted it.

[725]

What cast weight are you expecting?

[54bore]

This new bullet should Paper patch like a dream, and at .494 you will NOT be sizing the actual bullet itself at all, depending on your sizing die, all you will be doing is 'snugging' the paper up to the bullet good and tight, I STRONGLY believe in a .498-.499 sizing die, to me these numbers are about as ideal as you can get, with the .498 being the safest bet to work in ANY 50 Cal. You need to know your bore diameter before trying the .499, for example i have 6 different 54 Cal barrels, all of them EXCEPT 1 barrel accepts the .539 absolutely perfect, but the 1 barrel the .539 is to tight and comprimises the Paper trying to shove it down, i have to drop down size to .538 for this particular barrel, No big deal, just something to keep in mind. I have found this applies to .45, .50, and .54 Cal, Go with the 8s for a for sure fit, examples 45=448, 50=498, and 54=.538, go with 9s if you know your bore and want an even snugger fit.

[54bore]

What cast weight are you expecting?

Im thinking 450ish, my old Lee S&W mold was throwing about 460. It should be SUPER CLOSE

[Saxtonyoung]

Looking forward to the results of this bullet. How many cavities are you having your mold made. Also what cast alloy did you specify for a .494 bullet.

[54bore]

Looking forward to the results of this bullet. How many cavities are you having your mold made. Also what cast alloy did you specify for a .494 bullet.

I'm hoping i get it this week. I will start pouring bullets the day i get it, and be shooting the next day weather permitting. I went with a single cavity Steel mold, they cost a little more but they are a lifetime mold. I stated Lead, and 40:1 as my cast alloy

[Saxtonyoung]

In another thread you were experimenting with a .492-450 bullet, did you find These bullets to be to loose and that is why you are going with .494 with this bullet ? Where did you come up with your .498 and .449 Sizer dies ? Lee ?

[54bore]

In another thread you were experimenting with a .492-450 bullet, did you find These bullets to be to loose and that is why you are going with .494 with this bullet ? Where did you come up with your .498 and .449 Sizer dies ? Lee ?

The .492-450s are stil sitting here ready to go, just haven't had the chance to shoot them yet, Its been raining here nearly everyday. My push through sizers are Lee, you can get a custom die from them for 38 bucks now days. My reason for .494 is to 'snug' the paper to the bullet a little tighter than you get with .492 (Remember you are NOT sizing the bullet at all, just tightening the paper up) The .492 is a great size bullet, but you have to be careful or you will slide the bullet out of the paper jacket, 2 Wraps of my onion skin paper ads 8 thou to the overall body diameter, .492 turns into .500 on the dot, then push that through a .498-499 die you barely feel anything. Out in the field hunting i prefer the paper to grip the bullet a little bit tighter.

As I previously stated you have to be careful with sizing die size, i have found the 8s (448, 498, 538) to be a near Gaurantee to work in ANY Muzzleloader, But I personally prefer the 9s (449, 499, 539) i only have 1 .54 Cal barrel that wont accept a 9 without persuasion (to tight) so i have to size to .538 for it. My other 5 .54s love the 539, in other words if you have a tight bore you will need an 8, otherwise i would personally go 9

[Saxtonyoung]

Thank you for the information. I'm looking forward of your report on both of these bullets. I noticed that the .492-450 bullet is longer and may or may not perform ok with the 1-28 twist.

[54bore]

Thank you for the information. I'm looking forward of your report on both of these bullets. I noticed that the .492-450 bullet is longer and may or may not perform ok with the 1-28 twist.

I am anxious to shoot the .492-450s, while they are a little longer than the S&W 500 bullet, they have less bearing surface, it will be interesting to see how they do? I stripped the paper from this S&W 500 bullet so you can see the bearing surface

193404

[54bore]

As ive mentioned previously, The one complaint i have with the Buffalo bullets is the sharp edge at the base from the Swaging process, you MUST remove that or it will cut your paper like a razor blade. I use a piece of 600 grit sand paper and slide the base across it lightly, then grip them in a paper towel and twist, you can feel the sharp edge disappear. This is not a big job, but something that needs attention, If you dont, i feel there is a HIGH probability of Paper failure when loading and you might not catch it? If you seen my thread on my 45 Cal Hotrod Hawken where i shot the group with the Buffalo .444-400 Grain bullets, i had something go wrong on my very last shot? I am confident this is what happened, i think the bullet pushed through the base of the paper jacket (due to the sharp edge cutting the paper) somewhere down the bore and I didn't feel it? The new Vegetable Fibre wads i am using load fairly stiff, i was starting the wad an inch or so down the bore, then the bullet on top of the wad and pushing them together to the powder, It's unlikely i would have felt the paper fail due to the resistance from the wad, as anyone that's shot many paper patched and sized bullets know, they load EASY with very little resistance. When i shot, it was TOTALLY different? Hardly any Recoil, and just sounded wrong? That bullet was either in the center of the group, or it didn't even touch the target? My guess is the latter

[Saxtonyoung]

I did read your thread on the 45 Hotrod and the problem you were having with the paper tearing. I hope you don't have the same issues with this redesign bullet from Accurate , I like the fact you got rid of the gas check but wonder if it should have a small bevel.

[54bore]

I did read your thread on the 45 Hotrod and the problem you were having with the paper tearing. I hope you don't have the same issues with this redesign bullet from Accurate , I like the fact you got rid of the gas check but wonder if it should have a small bevel.

I am confident it won't be a problem with this new bullet design since it is being poured, the swaging process of the Buffalo bullets is a totally different process, the swaging process is what leaves a super sharp burr around the base edge. They get their lead in wire form on a spool. I also shoot the same RCBS 11MM bullet in my .45 GM LRH That Idahoron Pioneer Paper patched, this bullet has NEVER been a problem and it has no bevel at the base.

[Saxtonyoung]

That's great to know. I have been following the paper patch threads and recently acquired both the Lee 500 and RCBS 11mm molds to try them myself but have yet to do so.

[54bore]

That's great to know. I have been following the paper patch threads and recently acquired both the Lee 500 and RCBS 11mm molds to try them myself but have yet to do so.

JUMP IN and do it!!! Its addicting fun!! I can't imagine ever going back and shooting greased Maxi Balls again after shooting PP and sized bullets.

[54bore]

That's great to know. I have been following the paper patch threads and recently acquired both the Lee 500 and RCBS 11mm molds to try them myself but have yet to do so.

You have 2 awesome proven bullets! I am not a big fan of the Lee S&W 500 bullet mold, i love the bullet design but dislike having to size the lead itself (hence why i had the custom mold made) but the simple fact is the Lee S&W 500 bullet shoots REALLY good EXACTLY the way Ron advises it to be shot!! I will be bummed if this new bullet doesn't shoot as well. Here is an 80 yard target shot with my Stainless .50 Cal GM LRH, Lee S&W 500 Mold, 5 shots, 3 in a clover leaf

193427

[54bore]

That's great to know. I have been following the paper patch threads and recently acquired both the Lee 500 and RCBS 11mm molds to try them myself but have yet to do so.

The RCBS 11MM bullet is ABSOLUTELY ideal in my opinion, the bullets drop from my mold at .445-.446, then ad 2 wraps of onion skin paper and that bumps it up to .453-.454, run that through a .448-.449 sizing die and it tightens the paper up good and tight to the bullet, PERFECT! When you start paper patching try this tip, wrap your paper up high on the nose of the bullet, create a skirt (for lack of better words) you want the paper to 'shuck' from the bullet upon exiting the barrel, by creating a 'skirt' when the bullet exits the muzzle the wind will catch the skirt and 'shuck' the paper immediately. Works AWESOME for me. Here is a pic of what i mean by 'skirt'

193428

[Saxtonyoung]

That's some good information. In the past I've shot a lot of bore size bullet but never any that were paper patched. A couple days ago I poured some of the Lee 500 bullets but had some of the same results you did when running them thru the Sizer die with the patches tearing on about 50 percent of them.

[Saxtonyoung]

The Sizer die I was using was a .500 Lyman that I was pushing the bullets completely thru nose first. I may need to purchase the correct sizes you suggested that Lee makes.

[54bore]

That's some good information. In the past I've shot a lot of bore size bullet but never any that were paper patched. A couple days ago I poured some of the Lee 500 bullets but had some of the same results you did when running them thru the Sizer die with the patches tearing on about 50 percent of them.

Saxton, With that particular bullet and my personal experiences with it, i would use PURE soft lead, or as close to it as you can. I would size them the same day that you pour them. I would also size all of the bullets 1 time through the sizer without paper, get all of the bullets themselves to .500, Then wrap them and send them back through the sizer, Makes it an ABSOLUTE TON easier on your papers and less chances of them sticking to the bullet when exiting the barrel!! (You want that paper to 'Shuck' from the bullet immediately upon exiting) These are my biggest Gripes about the Lee C501-440 Mold and why i had the custom .494 mold made

Here is another tip i learned from Lee Shavers, do you have a Lube pad for cases? If so, roll the bullets across the lube pad just like you would do brass cases before Resizing, The bullets will slide through the sizer SO EASY it will shock ya! Then you MUST wipe the lube from the bullets. You also have to thoroughly clean your sizing die after doing this (not difficult, super easy to clean!) you want to make sure there is NOTHING foreign in the sizing die, you want it Slick smooth steel before running paper patched bullets through it.

2 Things that will cause papers to tear, Something foreign in the die, dried lube, oil, etc. will get gummy/sticky and grab the paper, You need to make sure the sizing die is absolutely slick clean and dry! And the other is your lead being to hard.

If you follow all of Idahoron's steps with this bullet it will work FLAWLESS for you! If you screw up and kick one step sideways it is likely you will have problems with the Lee C501-440 Bullet. Unlike The RCBS 11MM bullet for .45, That bullet drops from the mold undersize (Which In my opinion a bullet you plan to paper patch should drop from the mold undersize) The RCBS 11MM bullet should be called the .45 Hotrod PP bullet LOL, There is NOTHING to fix about that bullet

[54bore]

Another thing that makes a big difference in the way you size a wrapped bullet is to polish the inside of the sizing die to a mirror, But Since you are already .500 i would NOT advise doing this, i used Flitz metal polish, a clean lightweight cloth wrapped around a close fitting dowel, the dowel cut just long enough to extend a couple inches out each side of the die so you can get a hold of it, Remove the die lock ring. I used a piece of really thin drawer/shelf type padding (like a computer mouse pad but thinner, maybe an 1/8" is all) to roll the die on, ad the Flitz metal polish to the cloth, insert it in the die and roll it back n forth. Idealy I would like a .498.5 Sizing die and polish it to a literal mirror inside. This die would ONLY be used on Paper Patched bullets, I would not size lead down in a die i polished like this.

Lee sizing dies are great, but they are rough. A good polishing makes a world of difference! Paper patched bullets slide thru a polished Sizing die like grease

[charlie b]

One caution is to figure out what your bore size is. My Lyman GPH has a .502 bore. So I use a Lee .501 sizer. I use the .492-450PP bullets from BACO, two wraps onion skin and run then through the sizer. When loading I put the wad down to the power first. I put the bullet in and it easily goes down the barrel with just the weight of the hickory ramrod pushing it. I have 2" groups at 100yd with these after just a couple of tries so am happy. Am refining my techniques to get smaller groups and try longer ranges.

I do not cast so I use what I can buy. My next try will be Hornady Great Plains 385gn bullets. Out of the box I had bad luck. So I sized them down to .501. Will try them bare and PP. They do cut nice clean holes in the targets :)

[54bore]

One caution is to figure out what your bore size is. My Lyman GPH has a .502 bore. So I use a Lee .501 sizer. I use the .492-450PP bullets from BACO, two wraps onion skin and run then through the sizer. When loading I put the wad down to the power first. I put the bullet in and it easily goes down the barrel with just the weight of the hickory ramrod pushing it. I have 2" groups at 100yd with these after just a couple of tries so am happy. Am refining my techniques to get smaller groups and try longer ranges.

I do not cast so I use what I can buy. My next try will be Hornady Great Plains 385gn bullets. Out of the box I had bad luck. So I sized them down to .501. Will try them bare and PP. They do cut nice clean holes in the targets :)

Charlie b, I am expecting a new mold in the mail this morning, it is the Lyman Plains .50 Cal bullet mold, Idahoron's Secret FAVORITE LOL!!! I got a brand new one in .54 Cal at an estate type sale, as some know i have had NOT such great luck with .54s in the past, but these Lyman Plains bullets shoot D@MN good for me and my dad, we shot them 2 totally different ways and both of us had impressive groups with them! Maybe i got lucky? With the luck me and my dad both had with this bullet in our 54s It sparked my interest to try them in .50 as well, i found a brand new Lyman plains .50 Cal mold on Ebay and made an offer, i just tracked the package and it shows its at my post office this morning. I will get it cleaned up thoroughly and bullets poured today if all goes well. I got all kinds of stuff to try when our weather finally allows, it's raining here again this morning. Good day to pour some bullets from the new Lyman mold. I will be sizing and paper patching them first. Who knows, my custom .50 Mold from Accurate might be here as well?

[johnson1942]

guys, if you single wrap as you load with 18 pound freezer wrap paper you wont have any problems with paper tearing at the base of the bullet or anywheres on the bullet. the 18 pound paper will come of the muzzle every time and no klinging to the bullet at all also it also comes off in one piece. never any fliers. just a thought.

[Nobade]

guys, if you single wrap as you load with 18 pound freezer wrap paper you wont have any problems with paper tearing at the base of the bullet or anywheres on the bullet. the 18 pound paper will come of the muzzle every time and no klinging to the bullet at all also it also comes off in one piece. never any fliers. just a thought.
I was doing that yesterday with my Renegade. Single wrap patch is the way to go, on top of .060" ldpe wads.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[54bore]

guys, if you single wrap as you load with 18 pound freezer wrap paper you wont have any problems with paper tearing at the base of the bullet or anywheres on the bullet. the 18 pound paper will come of the muzzle every time and no klinging to the bullet at all also it also comes off in one piece. never any fliers. just a thought.

Roger, i don't disagree that the single wrap of butcher paper would work well, but I question it when it comes to hunting? Wouldn't you have to carry papers and wrap your bullets as you load? The double wrap of onion skin going thru a sizing die 'squeezes' the paper on good and tight, creating a Paper Sabot that you can carry in a little box, vial, etc. and it stays put on the bullet, its ready to go immediately, if you need a follow up shot its as simple as dumping the powder in, starting a wad, grabbing an already wrapped bullet and loading it. I can see the freezer paper being awesome at a target bench where time wasn't an issue, but in the field hunting i would prefer a 'ready made package'

[charlie b]

so how about a pic of how you do fhe sinvle wrap.

I also assume you need bullets sized for that paper

[Saxtonyoung]

I spent some time casting some of the LEE .500 bullets today and then proceeded to patch them and ran them thru a .501 LEE Sizer die I just got in the mail and amazingly they all sized very well. I have not shot any yet but I did slip the base into a barrel and it seems to slide in easy. I will find out tomorrow if they slide all the way down the bore. I did however order a .499 and a .449 Sizer dies today from LEE since I have a both 50 and 45 Caliber Green Mountain barrels as well as others to start experimenting with.

[idahoron]

Saxtonyoung, if your stripping paper it is because the lead is too hard. Lewis and I just went over this recently. I have never tested the 500 S&W bullets that hard. I will be interested on how they do for you. But remember I had good luck with lead MUCH softer. So if you don't have good luck with them don't fret, use softer lead.

[idahoron]

I am another one that believes that the single wrap would be a good way to go but the problem is carrying them in the field for field reloading. I use a vinyl tube to carry my patched bullets wrapped. I really don't want to have to wrap a bullet on a second shot.
On my antelope I shot in 2015 I hit the buck as it was dipping into water. The bullet hit the top of the shoulder and went down the back. It was a problem that cam from the animal moving at the wrong moment. I reloaded and set the sight to 150 yards and waited for him to walk to 150 yards. I used a cow elk call and gave a mew. He stopped and looked back. I took the shot and the buck was done. If I would have had to add wrapping a bullet to the reload I don't know if I could have got that second shot when I needed it.

[54bore]

I am another one that believes that the single wrap would be a good way to go but the problem is carrying them in the field for field reloading. I use a vinyl tube to carry my patched bullets wrapped. I really don't want to have to wrap a bullet on a second shot.
On my antelope I shot in 2015 I hit the buck as it was dipping into water. The bullet hit the top of the shoulder and went down the back. It was a problem that cam from the animal moving at the wrong moment. I reloaded and set the sight to 150 yards and waited for him to walk to 150 yards. I used a cow elk call and gave a mew. He stopped and looked back. I took the shot and the buck was done. If I would have had to add wrapping a bullet to the reload I don't know if I could have got that second shot when I needed it.

Ron, Ive meant to ask you what you carried your bullets in while in the field? I keep looking for the perfect little container, i know its out there, just haven't found it yet

[Saxtonyoung]

I did have issues with the paper stripping but I attribute it to using the Lyman Sizer die. For one the Lyman is really long and I was pushing the bullet thru the whole length .the paper may have been cutting on the holes in die used for lube and or the die was not centered in press.

With the Lee die it is only reduced for sizing for less than a 1/2" before it is relieved and the bullet has no more resistance.

I believe my lead is close to pure and was sized within minutes of casting in both instances, in fact I reused the same lead in the Lee that failed in the Lyman.

[johnson1942]

i can load the single wrap as fast as you can load your double wrap. much faster than a patched round ball. i carry two leather possible bags over the shoulder and the makins are right at my finger tips. if you want the paper to come off of your double wrap faster and never ever stick to the bullet, slit it at the seam line 3/4 of the way down the bullet all the way through both wraps. that was called the double wrap single wrap system in the 1800/s. nothing new, just recycled information.

[Saxtonyoung]

I like the concept of this single wrap Chase method. For me to use this method in say a 50 caliber I would need a bullet in the .492 range by either casting bullets that size or use a sizer dies to reduce the bullets I all ready have.

[Harleysboss]

As far as carrying wrapped bullets, I use a plastic tube that Knight used to ship their saboted bullets in. Its about 5" long and has a removable rubberized end cap on each end, Holds I think 4 or 5 PP bullets. Not sure if the 54 cal size bullet fits though. Never tried it...yet.

[johnson1942]

a .492 50 cal bullet is perfect to single wrap with 18 pound freezer wrap paper. put that wrapped bullet on top of a 60 thousands wad and it will be nothing but boring accuracy.

[Harleysboss]

johnson1942, so when you wrap with the single wrap it seems very loose on the bullet. Im guessin you fold under the paper onto the base then slide it into the bore onto of the wad? Shove the whole bullet/wad down as one unit? Im messing around with it and I dont get the paper very tight at all. Is this correct or am I missing something.

[johnson1942]

take a piece of 18 pound freezer wrap paper that wraps around the bullet soeach side just touch each other. hold those seams together with the fingers of one hand. have the paper just long enough so when you fold it over on to the base it goes about 3/4 of the way across the base. it will be snug but not tight. now place the bullet on a 60 thousands thick wad that you have already placed in the bore about 1/4 inch or less keeping the seams together. the wrapped bullet must go down on top of the wad as the wad against the base of the wrapped bullet keeps the paper on the bullet. thats it, not hard to do, you just wrap as you load.

[Harleysboss]

Ok thanks, I will have to try the single wrap.

[54bore]

Ready for testing! Here is the Steel Accurate mold, Bullet comparison side by side of the Lee S&W 500, and The new .494 Version I had made, i Have 8 patched, Sized to .499, and ready to shoot. They all weigh in at 451 Grains (i only keep bullets + or - 1 Grain) The bullets are dead on .494 diameter, 2 wraps of onion skin paper and they slid through my .499 die effortlessly as i knew they would. These Accurate molds are second to none!! If you read any of this stuff Tom, Big THANK YOU!

193873 193875
193874 193876

[Harleysboss]

DAMN YOU LEWIS! Now I got to order another mold from accurate!

[54bore]

DAMN YOU LEWIS! Now I got to order another mold from accurate!


LOL! You wont be disappointed!! This is a GOOD ONE!!