I need the benefit of your experience on 1911 45ACP

[tazman]

I recently bought a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 45 ACP.
I am using cast boolits. Specifically Lee 452-200-SWC and Lee 452-230-2R. I am using Bullseye powder currently but have others available.
I have tried loads of 4.6 grains under each boolit and they functioned the gun perfectly.
I currently have 200 rounds through the gun since new.
My question is---How light a charge can I use without having to change the standard recoil spring?
Thanks for your input.

[Nobade]

A lot of it depends on how you personally hold the gun. It's hard to predict, just start going lighter until you find out the answer.

-Nobade

[JimB..]

I think you'll need to test in your gun, sorry I can't give you an answer.

[country gent]

They all vary some due to fit and grip. Test and see where it wants to feed and function and what performs the best

[Joe K]

I use 3.5 grains of bullseye under the lee 452 200 swc, wlp primer in a Remington r1 bone stock. This is a nice load at 30 to 50 feet. I have not used the 230 grain mold. Hope this helps.

[GhostHawk]

When I tried to go light with Red Dot 3 gr under Lee 230 I got sooty cases. Gun functioned fine. Went to 3.5 and the soot went away. Is not enough more recoil or muzzle blast to notice between the two IMO.

You do have to reach down and grab the intestinal fortitude before you grab the gun.
Trigger on my SA is pretty light, not hard to get a double tap out of it if you are not careful. I was always a little concerned that it would get out of control. So Control is mostly what I worked on, and reasonably tight groups at 20 feet. Coffee cup size is fine. Aim for the head and they all land in the 2 eyes and the nose works just fine for me. If I am pushed on time or a little rattled push it a little lower and go for that nice big chest target.

But I think it has been some 9 months since I shot it. Probably overdue.

[tazman]

When I tried to go light with Red Dot 3 gr under Lee 230 I got sooty cases. Gun functioned fine. Went to 3.5 and the soot went away. Is not enough more recoil or muzzle blast to notice between the two IMO.

You do have to reach down and grab the intestinal fortitude before you grab the gun.
Trigger on my SA is pretty light, not hard to get a double tap out of it if you are not careful. I was always a little concerned that it would get out of control. So Control is mostly what I worked on, and reasonably tight groups at 20 feet. Coffee cup size is fine. Aim for the head and they all land in the 2 eyes and the nose works just fine for me. If I am pushed on time or a little rattled push it a little lower and go for that nice big chest target.

But I think it has been some 9 months since I shot it. Probably overdue.

Charge weights between Red Dot and Bullseye are pretty comparable according to the manuals that I have. The data you give for Red Dot is the kind of ballpark number I was looking for.
The trigger on mine is heavy at this point so no real possibility of a double tap. The groups you mention are a little tighter than where I am now.
I have been working with loads at around 4.5 grains of Bullseye. Tonight I loaded up some at 4.0 grains and was wondering if I wasted my time.

The trigger on my 9mm Range Officer is much lighter and the gun is a tack driver. I want to get this gun shooting like that one.
A man I met at the range yesterday had his Range Officer 45 ACP running with 3.5 grains of Titegroup under a 200 grain SWC. The recoil was comparable to my 9mm and it shot well but he had a light recoil spring in the gun.

[35remington]

4 grains will function with either bullet and is an excellent practice load. With the 200 SWC it makes a nice mild practice load that is not fatiguing over long strings of fire. Somewhere between 3.5 and 4 grains is the standard for target loads. I cannot guarantee all 1911's with standard springs will function dependably with the 3.5 grain charge but they will for sure with 4.

[DougGuy]

An old Gunny Sgt. taught me a trick with recoil springs in the 1911, he taught me to dbl tap, rapid second shot kind of dbl tap, and when the second shot lands closest to the first as you change out springs, this spring is the right spring for the gun *with that load.*

[Bigslug]

You're really going to have to let the gun tell you, but I think you'll be able to water it down pretty far with the stock spring.

CONSIDER: The stock 16# spring was arrived at for 230 grain ball at ~830 fps, BUT it was also arrived at for allowing that load to force the slide back through all the crud injected into the pistol during military trials testing.

I pretty much ONLY run 230 grain at GI speeds, and I switch to the heavier Wolff 18.5# chrome silicon recoil springs to run it on. Difficult to put into words, but the guns feel happier with that combination - smoother, easier on the hands, etc... A clean, well-oiled gun with a 16# spring should give a similar feel with a lighter load. Your brass should be going 4-6 feet before first bounce. More than that, the gun's taking more of a pounding than it should; less, and you're closing in on failures to eject.

The question to be asking is "What is comfortable?" more than an arbitrary "How light can it go?" You already have a 9mm 1911 - why turn your .45 into another nine?

As to the heavy trigger. . .work on your technique. If you feel you need a match trigger to hit stuff, it's probably because you're watching your sights wobble across the target (news flash - they NEVER stop), waiting for them to look like they're closing in on the bullseye, and then forcing the shot off when you think you're close, disturbing the alignment of the gun as you bash on the trigger. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that (if you're right handed) you're hitting low, and/or left on your target.

Your rounds don't go out in a line; they go out in a cone. Your job is to try to keep the cone (wobble) under control and to steadily increase pressure on the trigger in such a way that it doesn't force the front sight out of that cone. One of my tricks to help folks grasp this is to have them aim the gun, put their finger on the trigger, and then I stand next to them with my finger on top of theirs. The game we play is that all they do is aim, constantly correcting the sight picture while I steadily and evenly press on their finger, letting them feel what a proper trigger press is supposed to feel like. I can't see the sights; they don't know when the gun is going off; and they clearly see that the gun never stops moving; and it usually results in rounds closer to the center than they've been getting. The light bulb kicks on when they realize it's more about good trigger control than having the sights exactly on the juncture of the X inside the x-ring. Once you internalize that, it becomes A LOT less critical for your gun to have one of those fussy "glass rod" triggers to get good results.

ALSO: I've found that lot of practice with a DA revolver helps program this lesson into the amygdala as well. As much as I like the single action and Glock-ish platforms, their triggers that don't move until they do tend to fool your lizard brain into thinking that you actually CAN bash the shot off as the sights get close to the mark. This illusion does not exist with DA - you HAVE to watch your sights as you press.

[bullseye67]

Good evening,
I happen to have just a "bit" of trigger time with 1911's. I just started using mine again. We now have a large auto short line added to our 2700 once a month. Titewad is what I have been using. 3.0gr will function the gun with any 200-230gr. boolit. I then went up to 3.8gr looking for reliability and one hole. I now have close to 10K rounds through it using 3.4gr. of Titewad and good old #68 just a touch over 207gr. cast soft 30WW/70pure TL with 45/45/10. Soft recoil very easy to control in the 10 second round. Have shot 250 plus at 20 yards for several months. Cases are clean, holes are sharp and I have been alibi free.
Has to be a stock pistol so I picked up a very slightly used Remington R1 to use. Hope this helps:drinks:

[Forrest r]

An old Gunny Sgt. taught me a trick with recoil springs in the 1911, he taught me to dbl tap, rapid second shot kind of dbl tap, and when the second shot lands closest to the first as you change out springs, this spring is the right spring for the gun *with that load.*

Excellent advice, I do the same thing. Testing a p+ load/home swaged hp in a springfield ro/45acp. Shot 3 shots then tested with the double tap (the 2 holes touching).
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg.html)

Same ro/45acp, this is not a cherry picked target. It is the actual test target from testing bullseye loads for the ro. 3.6gr to 4.0gr of bullseye and the h&g #68 has been used by countless reloaders for decades. 10-shot group @ 50ft.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38bull50ft_zps126936b2.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/38bull50ft_zps126936b2.jpg.html)

Some people like them, others don't. I use the wolfe variable power springs in the ro/45acp. I run anything from those light target loads to p+ loads with those springs with what I consider excellent accuracy.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1911springs_zpsxar2jhlb.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1911springs_zpsxar2jhlb.jpg.html)

Enjoy your 1911

[tazman]

This is great information and exactly what I need.
Thank you all so much for replying.

Bigslug--You are correct. I was shooting low left. I ran into and old Master Sargent who had been a firearms instructor in the military and continues to train people today. He helped me with my hold and controlling the trigger properly. Using his suggestions, I was immediately shooting in the center instead of low left. I still have to work on that to keep from going back to what I was doing but it is a start in the right direction.
I developed target panic after years of shooting clay targets where it wasn't really a problem. I fight that constantly now with my handguns and rifles.

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been a while since I played in the 1911 sandbox but here's my recollection. With a 230 grain bullet and any type of acceptable load that was close to the 800-850 fps (closer to 800 with cast bullets), most full size 1911's would run fine with stock springs. No need to change anything.
A lot of folks would use a 200 grain FMJ bullet as a practice load and carry the 200 grain "Flying Ashtray" (Speer 200 gr HP) as a load for serious work. They seemed to function with factory springs in full sized 1911's. That load wouldn't feed in every pistol (the HP was giant) and it could get a little squirrelly in Commander length guns. I played with it some and went back to the 230 grain bullet. (I carried a Commander length 1911 and wanted reliability over everything else).

The guys that ran the 185 grain bullets all ran aftermarket springs. Based on my memory, which I acknowledge is the flaw in this, 200 grains is probably the floor when it comes to factory recoil springs.

[ravelode]

I've owned Tarus, Kimber (double stack), Llama, and Colt Gold Cup. Colt is the only one I regret selling.

[Bigslug]

.

. . . I still have to work on that to keep from going back to what I was doing but it is a start in the right direction.

I developed target panic after years of shooting clay targets where it wasn't really a problem. I fight that constantly now with my handguns and rifles.

Since you're on this board, you probably already know part of the answer - free scrounged lead, free scrounged brass, and six metric buttloads of ammo sent downrange in slow, deliberate practice. This is also the answer to recoil-sensitivity issues; unless of course you've got physical stuff going on that makes it actually hurt. Intellectually, we know that 230 grains going out the front end of the gun at 830 fps isn't going to harm us on the back end, but that damnable lizard brain at the top of our spine needs a lot more repetition of that fact before he gets the memo and stops making us jerk/flinch/anticipate.

But a 200 grain bullet is actually a pretty darn good compromise. One of the things I learned in my big meplat experiments is that a non-expanding 230 grain flat nose has a generous surplus of momentum. Unless you want or need to punch through a lot of stuff (guilty), want a practice version of a required-to-carry duty load (guilty), or are hung up on the history of the 1911 platform (REALLY guilty), 200 grains will probably do what you need it to. If I had any interest of keeping it a fighting load, I'd probably start by seating 200 grains on top of the charge for a 230 grain hardball load, see if that's comfortable, and adjust down from there.

I'm becoming a big fan of the humble steel dog food can as a target. For starters, it's about the size of the important anatomical reference points you target with a handgun, so in that sense, you're "keeping it real" regardless of the distance. Second, it immediately moves out of your sight picture when you hit it, giving you instant feedback on what you did right or wrong. The key is using that movement of a blurry object as your "doggie gets a biscuit" reward while you keep your focus on the front sight up to, during, AND AFTER the shot. If you immediately shift your focus downrange to watch the "WOW! NEATO!" effect of a reactive target getting destroyed, you'll tend to start looking for that BEFORE the bullet leaves the gun, and that doesn't help your accuracy AT ALL.

One personal 1911 observation/preference of mine - one way I consider the Springfield Mil Spec superior to most higher end 1911's on the market is that they ship it with the short length, post-1924, 1911-A1 short trigger installed. The short trigger allows you to put the pad of your finger square to the trigger face, hyperextend the second joint, and have the juncture of the second and third joint bent at a 90 degree angle. This lets you pull the trigger STRAIGHT to the rear. The WWI-era long trigger doesn't allow even large-handed folks do this, and it lends itself to pushing rounds left (for right handers). I think they're so popular because people like the look of the holes and other cool designs that are drilled in them (a mud and lint trap as far as I'm concerned), but ergonomically inferior in my book (which is why the Army switched). I'll grant that the WWI flat versus WWII arched mainspring housing preference will be down to hand size and personal preference (arched fan here), but I'm pretty adamant on the short triggers being better. I fit Greider Precision shorts into all of my non-collectible 1911's. This gives me the better reach and still retains the overtravel adjustment screw commonly seen in the long ones.

[charlie b]

An old Gunny Sgt. taught me a trick with recoil springs in the 1911, he taught me to dbl tap, rapid second shot kind of dbl tap, and when the second shot lands closest to the first as you change out springs, this spring is the right spring for the gun *with that load.*

So how do you know which spring to go to? My second shot are usually a little higher than the first. But, not sure it is the gun or my trigger work, ie, starting the trigger pull before the sights come back down :)

And it's a light Commander if that makes a difference.

[gray wolf]

In short, you want full movement of the slide to the rear, and enough forward movement to correctly chamber the next round.

To much slide speed (MORE SPRING THAN IS NEEDED)going back will raise the muzzle UN-necessarily,AND
may possibly damage parts of the pistol. Also the fast slide speed to the rear means fast speed forward,
to fast and the slide could skip over the next round and not load it
Also and very important It will cause the front of the pistol to drop down more than needed, this makes it harder and takes longer to re-align the sights for follow up shots. The font of the pistol bounces to much.
The pistol should be griped high in the hand,the beaver tail should appear to stretch the skin at the web between thumb and forefinger.

don't worry about where the cases fall, to much is put on this, as long as they clear the pistol and do not hit you or your body, they can land 1 foot or 3 or 4 feet away from you. A correctly tuned gun is going to drop them where it wants to providing
extractor and ejector along with mag feed lips are doing there job correctly.
If your empty cases don't land in the exact spot you want them to, use it as a guide to help complete the whole package.



This video explains fairly well what your looking for.

https://youtu.be/w3UVLm2GajI

[birch]

Trick for trigger control:

Get a buddy to put your mags in. Have him randomly put a mag in that is not filled with cartridges. He will have to rack the slide and manually lower the hammer--then give you the pistol. You will have no clue if the gun is "live". You will be able to see if you are pulling the gun in any particular direction as the hammer falls on an empty chamber. It is embarrassing, but it will give you a good idea if you are anticipating the shot (flinching or pulling).

Have your partner only put one round in the gun. You will be able to feel the weight difference if he loads them with all 7.

[TexasGrunt]

I've been using WST for my .45 target loads. I've got around 20 lbs of it and it works quite well, I happened to get a deal at a store going out of business and scooped it all up.

Standard load under a 200 gr SWC is 4.3 grains. Very soft shooting and cycles every .45 I've tried it in. I've thought about trying to see how low I could go but why mess with success? I can shoot these loads all day without a problem.

[Groo]

Groo here
Just remember the hammer spring is involved too.
That spring holds the slide shut .[cocking the hammer]
If you shoot a lighter load , start with a Colt goldcup or lighter hammer. [helps the trigger some too.]

[Multigunner]

I used a lot of Remington 185 Grain semi wadcutters in my Remington Rand with no malfunctions.

[DougGuy]

So how do you know which spring to go to? My second shot are usually a little higher than the first. But, not sure it is the gun or my trigger work, ie, starting the trigger pull before the sights come back down :)

And it's a light Commander if that makes a difference.

Try a few different weight springs. Shoot pairs of double taps. Choose the one that your second shot is closest to the first. This approach actually takes into consideration your grip, weight and velocity of the slide, recoil from the particular load, it takes in all of the physics that affect point of impact.

[gray wolf]

If someone wants to judge things by how well they do double taps, or even controlled pairs, then many things have to come together.
First thing is to know what a good double tap looks like, how it feels,and what you actually see down the barrel as to a sight picture. Done correctly the two shots should be reasonably close together, taking into account, distance, and naturally ones own ability. Grip and trigger control are very important.
Far as what you see as to the sights ? it's not very much, perhaps a flash front sight.
Controlled pairs are a tad slower so a little more sight is seen.

I shoot some very fast doubles, even at 75 Years old. I tried for a long time to recall after every session exactly what I was seeing as the shots broke. I just could not
replay it back in my mind, seconds after I could no re-see the picture.
Finally for me, I had to realize that I was not seeing much at all.
The pistol correctly set up did almost all the work, feeling the trigger re-set, and the pistol rising and falling back on target. with the proper grip and trigger, along with a good stance that lets you drive the pistol. I use a neutral grip, same pressure on the gun on the strong side as the week side, recoil is straight up--straight down.
side to side torque has to be eliminated, so even grip pressure on both sides is a must.

For me it happens like this, the shot breaks, the muzzle rises, the muzzle dip is minimum so pistol comes back on target quickly
AND IN THE SAME PLACE IT WAS BEFORE THE SHOT BROKE muzzle drop has to be minimized, this happens when the recoil spring is tuned for the load.
Change the load and you change the recoil impulse. The muzzle comes up differently and dips down differently.

My advise, and it's free, is to watch someone that can shoot
(speaks it and and can do it) try his pistol if you can and try to attach yourself to what your feeling and seeing, THEN, reproduce it with your own pistol.

I don't recommend a so, so shooter using double taps as a guide to correct spring weight. At least not till you know what it should look like and the results that should be obtained. Sometimes shooting is like what you see when a grade a grade a dance team dose it's thing, the package comes together and things just seem to flow.
My 2 cents, again, it was free.

Sam

[tazman]

I got out to the range again today with my 4.0 grains of Bullseye loads under both 230rn and 200swc. Both loads functioned the pistol and were accurate to the limits of my ability(currently about 3 inches at 10 yards). Today I wasn't flinching nearly so much. I only pulled 3 of 50 rounds out of the group which for me is outstanding.
The absolute best part was all groups fired were centered on point of aim. No more low left or anywhere else. The tips that old master sergeant gave me worked like a champ.
I am much more confident with the pistol now.
I am going to try a few of the mentioned loads that I have powders for and see if there are any appreciable differences.
Thanks to all of you for all your help and information.