44 magnum Super blackhawk leading. [Archive]

Bazoo

04-14-2017, 09:01 PM

My 4 5/8 super blackhawk 44 magnum is leading.

Bullet is accurate 434240A or 434240AG.
Lube is 2:1 Beeswax/crisco, on the hard side. Powder is
19.80 grains of AA9 from a lee dipper, is just over a starting load. Edit: Actually, this is near max. I was using load books USA, And it does list it as on the lower side in one section, but according to other sources it is not.
Alloy is straight wheel weights.
Hornady gas checks
Sized .429

Now... I started with no gas check. And I got leading. From forcing cone all the way to the muzzle, streaks following the rifling, and then when cleaned, a concentration at the threads. So I surmised, i have a constriction there.

I was suggested to size .430. But havent picked up a sizer in .430 yet.

So i just got around to trying it with gas checks... all the while I was thinking, Gas checks will surely give me little to no leading. I still have leading. Perhaps not quite as bad, but a good amount at the threads, and at the muzzle, with less between.

I can slide a bullet into my throats, and my calipers register them at .430 or larger.

So.... my next course of action should be sizing larger... correct?

Should I consider a different lube? Either before or after sizing larger?

Up until now... i've never had a problem with leading, but i've always used low pressure cartridges, 45acp and 38 special, and 357magnum with gas checks. All using the same lube, and with wheel weights.

Thanks for any encouragement.

DougGuy

04-14-2017, 09:13 PM

Boolits are undersized, you are getting gas cutting while in the cylinder and it continues into the barrel. You can size to fit the throats and see how that works, -OR- you can use a softer alloy and definitely a soft lube, and let the pressure from firing obturate the boolit to fit both the cylinder and the bore.

Mixing coww with pure lead at equal parts, then adding a bit of tin will give you probably the best alloy for that gun, 50/50+2% which with softer lube you would likely never need to clean the bore as long as your boolits are larger than the bore and they make a good seal.

With throats at .430" you may want to consider having them sized to .4315" and moving to a .431" boolit, this would be a good arrangement provided none of the throats are already larger than .4315"

Bazoo

04-14-2017, 09:44 PM

Thank you for the advice DougGuy.

I will measure my throats again to make sure. Should I go to the trouble to slug the throats, or would measuring be accurate enough with the inside measurement part of my calipers?

I want to stick with wheel weight alloy, as its the easiest and cheapest for me at present. I do feel like my lube is not soft enough, and that it isnt good enough, But im only going to change one thing at a time. I might change the lube before I change the size, as a reference.

woodsie57

04-14-2017, 09:52 PM

Maybe don't size them at all- I've had good luck w/ lee TL 240's, straight whl wt lead- no sizing die, from my Redhawk, lubed w/ JPW-Alox

ShooterAZ

04-14-2017, 10:06 PM

You pretty much answered your questions already, size to 431 (.429 is WAY too small) and switch lube. White label BAC works well for me, might give it a try.

Char-Gar

04-14-2017, 11:07 PM

Calipers won't give an accurate measurement of a round hole. Even though small, the caliber blades have a flat edge which is not allow the calipers to measure the full diamter of a hole. Your cylinder throats are more likely in the .431 - .432 range.

Some folks use pin gauges to measure holes and that works. I use a Starett expandable hole gauge and measure that with a good micrometer. Calipers have their use in a reloading shop, but measuring round holes is not one of them.

DougGuy

04-14-2017, 11:08 PM

Thank you for the advice DougGuy.

I will measure my throats again to make sure. Should I go to the trouble to slug the throats, or would measuring be accurate enough with the inside measurement part of my calipers?

Caliper is probably the worst way to measure a small diameter ID like a cylinder throat. And they're not really a good way to measure a slug either, you need a mic that reads in .0001" for this to be honest. Mitutoyo digimatic on ebay about $40 used, great mics.

I want to stick with wheel weight alloy, as its the easiest and cheapest for me at present. I do feel like my lube is not soft enough, and that it isnt good enough, But im only going to change one thing at a time. I might change the lube before I change the size, as a reference.

WW is fine, but it may be a bit too hard to obturate to the throats or the bore with your starting loads. This would actually contribute to leading. Change the lube, then see if a .431" will slide into the throats from the front..

The *perfect* fit is when you got the boolit sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter of the barrel, and the throats sized .0005" to .001" over the boolit diameter. This way the throats won't size the boolit down before it even gets out of the cylinder, and you are presenting a boolit to the forcing cone which is over groove diameter so you have some lead to swage into the rifling and make a good seal.

Even once this perfect fitment has been achieved, you still need a soft lube and you will likely not find a more suitable alloy than 50/50+2% it just works and works good but go ahead at your speed, change the lube, shoot the gun, go to a .431" with soft lube, shoot some more, etc....

Bookworm

04-15-2017, 07:32 AM

Let's look at the load.

According to Accurate Load Data version 3.5, a 240g LSWC load starts at 18.2, and goes to 20.2 grains of AA9.

You don't have a load just over start, you have a load approaching max.

Perhaps back it off just a bit, and try it again ?

44man

04-15-2017, 08:23 AM

Absolutely get a better lube. I use only Felix and some of my revolvers have not had the bores cleaned as long as 5 years. I keep cylinders clean so new STP can be applied.
I am not a "fit" with my .44. The boolit I shoot most is water dropped WW at .430" to .431". My groove is .430" and throats are .4324". The RD shoots great at .432" and I think most important is a little over groove. I will not shoot any over throat size.
Slug throats with a pure RB and get good mikes. Most Rugers run about .430" groove so your .429" IS too small.
I have never believed in expanding a softer boolit to fit with powder. If a boolit is soft enough the expand past thread restrictions, it is slumped anyway.
Fast powders are worse on a boolit even if a low pressure load because pressure is instant. You want peak a little into the barrel. 296 and 2400 has proven best.
Soft also makes it hard to get proper case tension without sizing the boolit when seating, not good in a revolver.
Next is to toss magnum primers, they have too much pressure and will move boolits before powder burn. I have used the Fed 150 since about 1979.
Nobody understands GC's, they are not scrapers. never shoot a GC boolit without one because you change drive length and open paths for gas. The GC is a "SKID" stop to grip rifling and seal gas escape.

44man

04-15-2017, 08:30 AM

I move to a Fed 155 for the .475, .500's and 45-70 revolver. The .45 Colt is borderline and works good with a WW primer. The .45 ACP is too small for any LP primer and the .454 needs a LP mag, both of these are wrong. Case size and capacity determine the primer.

Bazoo

06-14-2017, 10:19 PM

I slugged my bore, and cylinder throats. The bore at muzzle sizes to .429. The bore when a bullet is driven through sizes .430. And the cyldinder throats measure .433 for 4, and .434 for 2.

I know Its suggested to size to cylinder throats, and I know mine are large. So, what is the best compromise? Should I still size to throat diameter?

Thanks, ~Bazoo

Lloyd Smale

06-15-2017, 06:08 AM

agree with the others you need your bullets at least 430 and you need to get rid of that black powder lube and get a better lube. Try some of lar's lubes. There about as cheap as you can make it yourself and are great lubes. Hes an advertiser here.

LUCKYDAWG13

06-15-2017, 07:08 AM

this is good stuff http://www.lsstuff.com/

Lloyd Smale

06-15-2017, 07:35 AM

that's the stuff!
this is good stuff http://www.lsstuff.com/

Larry Gibson

06-15-2017, 11:27 AM

Your using COWW alloy, A GC and bullets are sized .429 - .430 and you get leading......it is the lube that is failing. Get some White label 50/50 or BAC.

I understand this is heresy but I have been shooting 44 magnums since '68 and shot a bajillon COWW cast bullets through them sized .429 lubed with an NRA 50/50 lube at 1250 - 1400+ fps w/o any leading. Back in the day a 1" six shot group at 25 yards was considered excellent. I could do that with all the Rugers and Hawes I had using Lyman moulds and sizing at .429.

I pin gauge the throats and bore.

The Hawes I still have has .433 - .434 throats and a .429 barrel. My Ruger FTBH has .431 -.432 throats and a .429 barrel. I have spent money on one revolver having the throats reamed, they were well done and the same at .433. I have spent more money on custom over size moulds so the bullet could be sized the "fit". Spent more money on different size sizers to get the perfect "fit". What I found was all with .429 - .430 groove diameter barrels gave the best accuracy if the bullets were at groove diameter or not more than .002 over groove diameter regardless of how well the bullet "fit" the throats. When the cast bullets were sized more than .002 over groove the revolver would no longer pass the 1" at 25 yards with 6 shot test. Considering the bullet is sized by the barrel and the lube it must ride over to not lead down .003 - .005 smaller than the groove diameter if we add another .003+ over groove diameter the bullet gets really disfigured before it gets out the barrel. The less the bullet has to swage down in transition between the cylinder throats and the bore the more accurate it will be. All of my factory .44s shoot the best with the bullets sized at .429 or .430........yes, I know I am a heretic but that's what I've found.

I suggest simply trying a known proven lube and adding 2% tin to your COWW alloy. Most COWWs these days has little to no tin in it and you may be getting more antimonal wash than "leading". The tin will combine with the antimony, form a sub metallic SbSn which will stay in solution in the lead. That will give you a much better alloy, the bullets will have a higher BHN and it will prevent antimonal wash and you will cast better bullets.

My most accurate 44 magnum is my Colt Anaconda. It has straight throats (Rugers are tapered) that all pin out at .429. The barrel is .429 so the bullets are a perfect fit. My Ruger Vaquero 44-40 also has .429 throats and a .429 barrel. It also is extremely accurate. Bullets are sized .429 for both of those. As previously mentioned my Ruger FTBH with .431 -.432 shoots more accurate than I can and I use .430 sized bullets. Groups open with .432 sized bullets.....they just get swaged down too much when shot through the .429 barrel.

My apologies to Doug as I know he provides an excellent service. However, I've not found any need to ream/uniform any Ruger cylinder throats.......

Your humble and friendly heretic

Larry Gibson

tdoyka

06-15-2017, 12:59 PM

i shoot a ruger sbh(4 5/8" barrel) in 44 mag too. i've shot a .431" 220gr wc(coww), .429" 250gr hp(40:1),.432" 275gr ranch dog(coww and 5% tin), and a .431" 280gr wfngc(bought from montana bullets, i guess its 22bhn). i guess that i've shot around 1500 boolits and it does not lead up. i've bought the sbh last year and i never slugged my cylinder throats or bore. the cylinder does .432" boolit just fine, i could probably put a .433" or .434" boolit into it but .429"-.432" boolit is good enuff for me. i go from 800-1000fps and i use unique and tite group. i plan to start using 2400. i don't know if that helps or not.

i thought that would lead when i shot the 250gr hp(40:1) but it didn't. i thought it would lead for the .432" ranch dog, but it didn't. i'd try mr gibson's 2%tin with coww and see how that works.

Bazoo

06-15-2017, 08:52 PM

Thank you for the replies.

I got froggy last night and opened my lee sizing die up to .431.

I've used this lube for 38 special and 45 auto without any problems. I havent however, shot exclusively 44 specials to see if with .429 sized bullets, the lube is sufficient. I suspect that since my bore was .430, it would be a waste of effort to load any more sized to .429, although im tempted to try what I have left for 44 special loads.

I do have a stick of LsS carnauba red But I aint ever used it as I dont have a lube sizer.

Thanks again for the advice everyone.

Bazoo

06-28-2017, 06:32 PM

Thanks for the help and encouragement everyone. And the advice.

I hand lubed 50 with my stick of carnauba red, and sized them 431. Loaded them under 9.2 unique from a lee dipper. Shot half a box with the wife the other day. Just plinking, but I shot one group on paper and it was respectable enough for quick and offhand. Just looking down the bore with a flashlight, fouling is present, but leading seems to be either gone or almost gone.

Since my bore sized 430, I'll probably find a 430 die for my new to me lubesizer to start.

W.R.Buchanan

07-03-2017, 04:27 PM

I feel I should add my .02 to this discussion.

I have converted shooting nothing but Powder Coated Cast Boolits.

I no longer wonder about my Lube. The PC is polymer based. There is no leading,,, Period.

Boolits dropped from moulds that are normally considered undersized get .001-2 per side added to them and thus can be sized to any appropriate dimension. My Mihec .429421 mould drops at .434 with plain WW. They still size perfectly when pushed thru a .431 die with no PC removal.

I have always (since I figured out what worked) sized to .431 for my SBH Bisley as the throats are .4300-.4305 and the barrel is .429. So the throats theoretically size the boolit .0005-.001 and the barrel sizes the boolit another .001 but since the boolit is coated with a polymer paint it slips thru with no problems.

Cleaning the barrel is one patch to clean out the powder fouling from the last shot, and a Small Brush to clean the forcing cone.

This also works for my S&W 696 and BH Bisley which are essentially the same dimensions for the throats and barrels.

The powder coating has removed a bunch of variables for me, and it is not that hard to do. Leading barrels is a thing of the past.

Randy

Bazoo

07-25-2017, 09:46 PM

W.R., I aint been able to warm up to powder coating yet. It might happen one day, but it aint happening right now. Thank you though for sharing that, and I will keep it in mind.

Bazoo

07-25-2017, 10:07 PM

After finishing the box of bullets I made sized .431 and lubed with carnauba red, I checked the bore, and I had leading at the forcing cone, and about an inch into the barrel. The bullets were plane base.

I bought a .433 sizing die off a member here. And I made a dummy cartridge with it. It chambered, but with no room to spare. And it bulged the case badly, and didnt look "right". I didnt try shooting any of them cause I aint going to make ammo that looks that "off". Maybe If i had a resizing die that sized the case on the large size it wouldnt look like a goof, and it'd be okay.

So I cleaned it thoroughly.

The forcing cone, as always, seemed rough to me, so I figured heck with it. I chucked a cleaning rod section in a drill, and using a patch loop, turned a piece of scotchbrite pad in the forcing cone. I lubed it with hoppes as thats what I had handy. Dont get me wrong, I didnt grind the stuffings out of it and did my best to keep out of the rifling with the pressure centered. It did remove the machining marks after a minute or so. Then I turned a patch covered with the finest polishing compound I had (green) and that shined it nice. I will report back if this helps any.

Next I will try some gc bullets again.

I aint got to completely cure the leading issue to be satisfied, but Its got to improve a fair amount. If I had shot 300 rounds instead of 50, with the same amount of leading, i'd say, cleaning my gun is part of life if it dont get any better.

Larry Gibson

07-26-2017, 10:36 AM

If it still leads after polishing add 2 % tin to alloy. Allow 7 - 10 days to age bullets if AC'd before sizing, loading.

If it still leads use NRA 50/50 or BAC lube.

Grmps

07-26-2017, 04:16 PM

Due to the inconsistency of modern COWW, range scrap and non-commercial lead I prefer to mix large batches together to get a common alloy to deal with. I'm real scientific in testing unknown non-commercial alloys for smelting. I drop it on a concrete floor and if it doesn't have a dull thud, if it rings I put it in my alloy smelting pile. When I get a large batch I smelt it twice, once seperating each smelt into groups and the second using equal parts of each group to create ingot of common aloy. I get this alloy XRF'd then I know exactly how much tin/monotype/pure I need to add to get my desired aloy.
Alloys with equal quantities of tin and antimony have been popular and highly effective for a long time. IE. Lyman#2 5-5-90 or 3-3-94 which I believe Larry is trying to get your COWW alloyed to.

Bazoo

07-26-2017, 10:13 PM

Thank you for the replies.

Larry, There is some tin in these bullets. I aint sure exactly how much as I added some to the pot when casting when I was having problems and experimenting to figure out what turned out to be a brain flub on mold temperature. Also, its been 2 weeks or so since I cast these bullets.

Im lubing with carnauba red now. Did you know this?, and are still suggesting 50/50 or BAC? If so, why you reckon the CR aint good enough?

Today I tried a small number (11) gas checked bullets sized to .431. 11 because thats all I had cast up. This leaded the forcing cone, but the rifling was clean.

Cleaned it.

Then I tried 3 cylinders of PB bullets sized to .433. This leaded the forcing cone and about an inch of rifling. I was surprised, as everyone has told me to size to cylinder throats and my problems will go away.

So yall got any other ideas?

I'll try a greater number of the 431 sized GC bullets next and see how my results are. I dont want to have to resort to GC only bullets as they cost more.

Loudenboomer

07-26-2017, 11:10 PM

Caranuba Red is a very good lube. IMHO Not the first choice in the 44 mag though. I think you will have better results with BAC. It's softer but it works well even past 2000 fps.

Larry Gibson

07-26-2017, 11:33 PM

I know this is heresy but sometimes "fit" is not "king", especially as it applies to revolver cylinder throats. Sometimes it is the "court jester" as you've found out. Here's the problem; in cylinder throats at .432 +/- a bullet sized at .432 will have to be swaged down to .429 in a barrel of that groove size. Then as it is in the barrel it gets sized down another .003 - .005+/- because it rides over a layer of lube/fouling between it and the bore surface. The more the bullet has to be swaged down at the throat the greater the odds leading will occur there unless a proper lube is used.

In this case Carnauba Red is not a "proper lube".....that should be obvious from the leading. It is not doing the job under the circumstances of use in this case. Quite frankly I've shot a bajillion .429/.430 sized bullets in numerous .44s with cylinder throats ranging from .429 to .434 (pin gauged) with out any leading and with excellent accuracy. I didn't know I was all wrong until I read the magazine article years ago that started all this "size" to fit the cylinder throat". I even bought a mould (GB on this forum) that gave me .435 "Keith" bullets. I sized them to "fit" the throats of my Ruger BH (.432) and my Hawes Western Marshal (.433- .434). With .430 sized bullets they both shot quite well and I was expecting awesome results.....what I got was improved cylinder groups with both medium level loads and magnum level loads......went back to .430 sized bullets and accuracy went back to as good as I can shoot. Additional testing has demonstrated to me that forcing a cast bullet .003 or more over groove diameter into a barrels forcing cone is detrimental to accuracy. Bottom line with the bullet (Accurate 43-240A and AG) you're using I suggest you size them at .430 for your Ruger.

So why the leading with CR lube? The bullet you're using is a WFN with the nose tapering from full diameter. Thus you have that portion of the bullet plus the drive band (crimp groove is between them) at what ever you size them or at what the cylinder sizes them to being forced into and swaged down by the barrel forcing cone WITH OUT any lube on the bare alloy as that is done...... you've found with the larger the bullet the more leading there is......that should tell you something. It is leading there because there is no CR lube in that area. The forcing cone get's coated from bullet one and leading builds up there and afterword's is pushing leading further down the barrel. CR is a HV lube that works sometimes quite well at lower velocity but sometimes it fails miserably simply because of the wrong alloy, the wrong sizing and the wrong bullet design. You got lucky (?) and have all three......That's why it is leading. Let me say that CR is an excellent HV lube when properly used and I'm not criticizing it at all. It just isn't working the way you're using it.

I suggest you switch to BAC (a softer lube with CR in it) or an NRA 50/50 lube. Both are soft and will lube better at the lower velocities of even magnum 44s. What you might try is size your bullets .430 and lube with CR. Then TL them with a light coat of LLA and let thoroughly dry before loading. That will give you some alox lube up front. I use that most often on hard cast commercial bullets that lead because of the too hard wax lubes most have on them. Leading then is either non existent or minimal.

As to the alloy, okay, so you added "some" tin but don't know how much........add 1% more. The tin combines with the antimony in equal amounts up through 5% each to form the sub metal SbSn. That sub metal stays in solution in the lead during the hardening/aging of the bullet. That means the antimony present in COWWs won't harden separately from the lead. That gives a much better alloy (95- 2.5- 2 to 2.5 %s) and it casts much better.

DougGuy

07-27-2017, 12:15 AM

Lot of good info here especially Larry Gibson's input. OP -may- have a rough forcing cone as well, Ruger IS well known for shipping revolvers with a radially oriented collection of tool marks where the forcing cone usually is. A call to 4D rentals for rental of their kit will fix a bad forcing cone, they have a very good video on using the cutter.

Bazoo

07-27-2017, 09:24 AM

Larry, thank you for taking the time to explain that. That makes perfect sense. I noticed last night after firing the last batch of test ammo, that there was some pieces of lube left in the cylinder throats. It didnt register until reading your post.

gwpercle

07-27-2017, 04:19 PM

An easy to make effective handgun boolit lube is 3 parts beeswax and 1 part lithium grease (Lucas Red-N-Tacky). Good old Lithi-Bee. I keep coming back to it and no harder to make than beeswax and Crisco. Those magnum loads just need a little extra lubrication that the lithium grease seems to add. Gas checks will help too.
Good luck with the SBH.
Gary

Bazoo

07-28-2017, 06:33 PM

Upon further inspection. After firing the .433 sized bullets, lubed with CR, I have a heck of a lot of lube in the end of the chamber just before the beginning of the throats. When the bullets were sized smaller, there was a small amount of lube left in the end of the chamber, but nothing like this. I will get some different lube and try that next, along with sizing .430 when the die arrives.

What Larry says is what I want to hear to some degree, but it also make a lot of sense as he describes very well what is happening. I hope that .430 sized bullets will give me good results, even with large cylinder throats, as I want to be able to utilize other bullet designs without having to buy custom molds of a larger size. The accurate 43-240-A&AG is what I have to work with at present, other than a lee 430-310-RF.

I appreciate everyones replies, and their time and effort in trying to help me understand, and to resolve this problem. I will continue experimenting as time and money allows.

DougGuy

07-28-2017, 07:47 PM

OP, there is also the possibility of sending the gun back to Ruger, just say that it doesn't group well and leads the bore something fierce, if it doesn't group for them they will repair it on their dime, and you may come out with a new cylinder with more appealing throat diameters..

Bazoo

07-28-2017, 08:08 PM

DG, that is a good idea. I will keep it in mind.

Bazoo

08-10-2017, 10:24 PM

OlDeuce

08-10-2017, 11:04 PM

Okay. I have acquired some BAC lube, cleaned out the sizer, and lubed and sized a box worth of bullets to .431. We'll see how these do. Next i'll try changing the alloy I think. I have some alloy that is almost identical to electrotype that I can try, sep'n I want it to work with ww alloy if'n it will.

I've had my 44 mag Super Blackhawk sense the mid 70s it's a 7 1/2'' barreled shooter......Most all my hunting was done with it up to the mid '80s !!!
what I did to get the distance was to shoot at a 55gal drum at 200yds!!!!! but I did start at a 100yds than 150yds than the 200 yd mark!!!! lots of shooting
to get comfortable with the distance .

Ol Deuce

Bazoo

08-10-2017, 11:18 PM

OlDeuce

08-11-2017, 12:16 AM

I aint been able to keep the dang thang from leading, much less try for accuracy. But with a handgun, i have a 2/3 ipsc I can hit at 125 yards. I wouldnt chance a handgun shot past about 60 yards though.

Your not living until you take a antilope at 200yds with your .44 !!! I can't do it now but when I was 1/2 my age that was the best I could do !!!! Ol Deuce

Bazoo

08-11-2017, 12:40 AM

It would be nice... but I aint got the skills yet. I can hold 6" at 50 with a handgun, once I get used to it. I have been able to a little better, if I was really familiar with the gun.

OlDeuce

08-11-2017, 01:04 AM

It would be nice... but I aint got the skills yet. I can hold 6" at 50 with a handgun, once I get used to it. I have been able to a little better, if I was really familiar with the gun.

It takes lots of shots to do it LoL Lots of shots:Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fi re::Fire::target_smiley: Ol Deuce

Bazoo

08-11-2017, 11:01 PM

I fired the cartridges made with BAC lube and sized .431, It was some better, but still leaded the forcing cone some, and just a wisper in the beginning of the barrel. It was the best so far, will report back as experimentation continues.

gnostic

08-13-2017, 10:20 AM

My SBH leads up with bullets sized under .430, with as little as five grains of Bulls Eye.

Bazoo

08-24-2017, 12:09 AM

I did a little reading, and im thinking that my alloy is not sufficient for the pressures im loading to. I settled on a starting load of unique as a test round, the books says its a smidge over 25k psi Or cup... cant remember. So... wheel weight alloy with or without tin added aint quite enough for this according to lasc webpage.

So I will try some 44 special loads with my made bullets, with no other change, and if that is acceptable, I will try water dropped ww for the magnum loads.

I am both enjoying and frustrated by the "problems" im experiencing. If I can get it figured out though, i'll have learned a heck of a lot about the gun and casting and bullet development. I appreciate everyones patience with me as I continue my reckon'n.

DougGuy

08-24-2017, 12:40 AM

Bazoo, if you want to send the cylinder and get it measured really accurately, I have a brand new Starrett 82BZ Split Ball Bore Gauge coming. This is a $1350.00 dial bore gauge that reads in .0001" increments. This is even closer than the Z minus pin gages I use that are in .0005" increments.

Throughout this thread I don't think the boolits have yet been sized to fit the throats. This is generally what's required to stop leading, and it's pretty easy to keep lube from being blown out of the groove if powder gas can't get to it to begin with, so my suggestion is to mic the throats and get an accurate reading, hone the smaller throats to match the larger so they would all be even now, and then size .0005" under that diameter. I would hone out a sizing die to fit the throats if you want to send one.

The Uberti in my avatar is a 45 Colt with .451" barrel and .4565" throats! I size to .456" and use a 454190 boolit made up of 50/50+2% with SPG lube, the gun shoots lights out and only has a slight bit of powder residue in the barrel after a shooting session. It performs like a dream and never needs cleaning. I think I have hit on the combo this one likes.

My 7 1/2" SBH has 4325" throats, I size to .432" and use a Lee C430-310-RF with the gas check, again cast in 50/50+2% alloy, I can scratch it with a thumbnail, and I use either Felix or randyrat's TAC1 soft lube, exact same results as the Uberti. The 45 Colt really came to life with 9.0gr HS6, and the heavy boolit in the 44mag loves 17.0gr 2400 both guns get WLP primers.

What I have managed to arrive at, is the perfect COMBO that works the best in both guns. Dimensions are good, sized to just under throats, alloys are soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, soft lube, forcing cones properly cut and polished, if I change one thing in the scheme of things, it begins to take away from the sum of the whole. Does that make any sense?

It's like taking a boat out on a lake, and you can feel it when it "planes out" and everything is working as one. Same way with your 44magnum. You just haven't gotten close enough yet.

Silver Jack Hammer

08-24-2017, 08:47 AM

Take DougGuy's advice, he turned my SBH from an OK shooter into the most accurate pistol in my collection.

Bazoo

08-24-2017, 09:13 PM

I slugged the cylinder throats and measured the slug to determine the measurements of .433 and .434. I also have made and fired a small batch of ammo with bullets sized to .433, which leaded worse.

2 dogs

08-30-2017, 02:57 AM

In post #42, Doug gives precise information as to the correct size of the cast bullet you should be shooting. I'm quite sure both he and I would like to take a look at that cylinder and do some measuring for ourselves. I would also be interested to see if the barrel has restriction at the threads. You should consider sending it off to be carefully measured along with some of your cast bullets so an actual accurate measurement can be taken on them as well.

DougGuy

08-30-2017, 11:12 PM

2 dogs I hope you are safe from the ravages of Harvey! I have good friends in the flood water now, but they are safe. So far.

Now.. I am "upping the bar" a notch with the tooling I use for cylinders and barrels, I have put into service a Starrett Split Ball Dial Bore Gauge and a stack of master ring gauges in all the pistol calibers.. This indicator reads in .0001" increments and let me tell you, NOTHING about a cylinder throat or a barrel throat will escape the telltale precision which it brings to the table! It finds oval cylinder throats in a New York INSTANT, it finds bell mouths, tapers, uneven throats and any small miniscule irregularity in the throat will immediately show itself. The thing is brutally honest in reporting measurements. I have been without one for too long!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/20170830_230739-640_zpsib2tnyru.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/20170830_230739-640_zpsib2tnyru.jpg.html)

BHill

09-02-2017, 07:42 PM

Tool envy is not a pretty thing. That has abilities that make me drool and my wheel guns are shooting very well but i still want to play with it.

You loan that thing out?:mrgreen:

You would be crazy!!!

Bazoo

11-28-2017, 09:20 PM

I shelved this project for a while, but i've been pondering it, and researching it some. I have not tried anything else. But im convinced that the ww lead alloy is too soft for the pressures I was loading to. I will try some 44 special pressure loads next.

According to http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm I shouldnt get leading even with over sized cylinder throats, just less than ideal accuracy. I am also convinced that i'll get good results from fire lapping as it will smooth anything in the throats that needs it, and remove any restriction in the barrel as I believe I have a slight one but not excessive.

One thing at a time however.

Thanks for everyones suggestions and help. I work slow sometimes so it might take me a while to get it all going again. I needa fire it up and make some more bullets... .dagummit

~Bazoo

Bazoo

09-20-2018, 10:22 PM

El Bibliotecario

09-20-2018, 10:32 PM

I shoot what are probably undersize. 429 bullets with gas checks in a 44 magnum and 44 special revolvers and get no leading.

Bazoo

09-20-2018, 10:37 PM

El Bibliotecario, I was getting leading the cylinder throats, forcing cone, and the first inch of barrel using plain base bullets. When I shot gas checked bullets, the leading was completely alleviated in the bore, but the forcing cone still was bad.

DougGuy

09-22-2018, 11:18 PM

I sent the gun back to ruger with a note complaining of leading. I received the gun back with a note that they adjusted the timing. I've yet to shoot it as I dont have any bullets. I sold my bullet mold and am going to get another one.

After thinking it all over, I think the barrel constriction is the problem. I expect that after I fire lap it, I wont have any further issues with leading. I will report back as I get a mould and test more. I havent given up on it yet, but i've been working on other stuff so its been on the pondering shelf a while.

You may want to send the cylinder and get it checked, and corrected if needed. Firelapping will be much more effective if the throats are dimensionally corrected first.

You can rent the forcing cone cutter kit from 4D or one of the other rental places, 4D has a great video showing how to use the tool.

Bazoo

09-22-2018, 11:31 PM

You may want to send the cylinder and get it checked, and corrected if needed. Firelapping will be much more effective if the throats are dimensionally corrected first.

You can rent the forcing cone cutter kit from 4D or one of the other rental places, 4D has a great video showing how to use the tool.

Other than with throats that are undersized, what would be the benefit of reaming them? Having slugged them and measured with calipers, I know it isnt the most accurate measurement, but its not completely useless right? I measured .433 x4 and .434 x2 when I slugged them. My goal is to rid myself of the leading. If I fire lap it with .430 bullets... they wouldnt do much of anything to the throats right?

DougGuy

09-22-2018, 11:38 PM

You would want to firelap with the biggest boolits you can load and chamber.

Ultimately, the MOST important part of the cylinder throats isn't their diameter, it's how even they are in diameter. Uneven throats cause pressure variations which cause the gun to recoil differently in the shooter's hands, shot to shot. With the SBH, the boolit exits the muzzle as the muzzle is arcing upward in recoil. Variations in the position the muzzle is in from varying pressure, will cause groups to open. You can always size to fit the throats, but you cannot size to fit uneven throats.

I have a Uberti (avatar photo) with .4565" throats, I size to .456" to fill the throats to a light drag fit, and it shoots extremely well. At 10yds that gun is a fly's worst nightmare.

I suspect your larger throats are closer to .432" and the others smaller. The reason I say this is that Ruger used to ream cylinders on a Hitachi machine with 3 cutters, and as the cutters wore they cut smaller and smaller throats. Finally when the smallest and most worn of the reamers was replaced, they cut .432" holes, and since the others were not worn to the point of being unserviceable they were used until they wore out. They gang ream 3 throats, index the cylinder one hole and gang ream the other 3. Each cutter cut a pair of throats, adjacent to one another. I have not seen factory cylinders larger than .4325" although with Ruger, -anything- is possible. This is just my suspicion. And in the 1 1/2 years this thread has been up, no accurate measurements have been taken so all this discussion is based on measuring a slug with a caliper, which is probably the most "iffy" way to measure a cylinder.

Bazoo

09-24-2018, 10:11 PM

That is really interesting info. I didnt know that they reamed the cylinders 3 then rotate and 3 more.

The difference in pressure from one chamber to the other causing difference in recoil is not something i've ever heard of, nor thought of. I can see how it would cause vertical stringing.

How will honing the cylinder throats to be consistent affect my leading problem?

DougGuy

09-24-2018, 10:20 PM

By honing them all to match the largest throats, the smaller ones won't be downsizing the boolits as they are fired, that is, IF you size to a light drag fit in the largest throat(s). If you are shooting full power loads, and your alloy is somewhat malleable, BHN14 or softer, then boolits will obturate on firing to fill the throats. Now you have all the throats the same, you will be presenting a consistent and larger boolit to the bore.

Since no definite measurements have been taken and posted for this cylinder, there is speculation that the boolits/throats may be smaller than your calipers say they are, and if they are not bumping up in the throats as they are fired, then you are losing powder gas which is cutting the side of the boolits. You may have oval throats as well, this is common. Honing them would make them round. Awful hard to size a boolit so it will seal in a throat that is bigger on one part.

Then there is the thread choke. The larger you can shoot firelapping boolits, the better lap job they will do.

That is really interesting info. I didnt know that they reamed the cylinders 3 then rotate and 3 more.

The difference in pressure from one chamber to the other causing difference in recoil is not something i've ever heard of, nor thought of. I can see how it would cause vertical stringing.

It doesn't cause strictly vertical stringing, since the gun torques sideways as well when it fires, there is enough lateral deviation that groups just open up.

Bazoo

09-24-2018, 10:44 PM

Hmm, let me think that over a while. Thank you.

CJR

09-25-2018, 10:27 AM

I second what DG stated about re-cutting the barrel forcing cone. I routinely re-cut all 44 barrel forcing cones to clean them up and to insure the forcing cones are concentric to the bore/rifling axis. This helps center the CB, as it enters the barrel, and it also reduces the "lateral spitting", of shaved lead + unburned powder kernals, through the barrel/cylinder gap.

Best regards,

CJR

white eagle

09-25-2018, 11:26 AM

powder coat and use gas checks
why size larger than the throats just to size to the throats when you fire

W.R.Buchanan

09-29-2018, 05:12 PM

Bazoo: Have you warmed up to Powder Coating yet?

It would have solved all your leading problems a year ago.

Might want to look into it since you can be up and running with an old Toaster Oven and a Harbor Freight PC gun.

Might be a better way of fixing this problem than endless experimentation with lubes and bullet sizing and gun mods which so far don't appear to be working.

Just trying to help.

Randy

Bazoo

09-29-2018, 11:52 PM

Thank you all for the replies.

Randy, I havent warmed up to it. I havent completely written it off, but its outside of the scope of what im interested in. I want to stay traditional, with lube in grooves.

If I cant get fire lapping to resolve the leading problem, I will try recutting the forcing cone and or having the throats honed out . If it comes to that... i'll be asking for some help with it as i've never cut metal with a reamer of any variety. Im sure I can handle it with some instruction though. If after those things... I still am getting unacceptable leading... then i'll probably ponder on the powder coating.

Sounds extreme as I write it, But If I wanted to away from tradition, i'd just shoot jacketed bullets, or buy plated bullets.

CJR

09-30-2018, 04:11 PM

Bazoo,

Regarding your concern about re-coning the barrel's forcing cone. Brownells sells the barrel forcing cone reamers and they are very simple to use and work very well. There are, I believe, three (3) different angle forcing cone reamers. In my view, the eleven (11) degree taper is the best all-around. If the barrel manufacturers indexed on the bore/rifling axis there would no need to re-cone the barrel forcing cone. Apparently, they index on the centerless ground outside diameter which in many cases is not concentric to the bore/rifling axis. The Brownells forcing cone reamer properly indexes on the bore/rifling axis. Many times when refinishing the forcing cone,with the Brownells' forcing cone reamer, you can see the initial slight offset between the centerless ground axis and the bore/rifling axis.

Best regards,

CJR

oger

09-30-2018, 04:18 PM

I don't know how hot AA-9 burns but I found that IMR 4227 is the only powder that worked for heavy loads with cast bullets in a 44mag.

CJR

10-01-2018, 08:31 AM

I agree with Oger about IMR4227 in the 44 Mag. I use 25 gr. of IMR4227 behind a Keith 250 gr CB with Mag primers at about 1350FPS (chrono'd). It was an accuracy load published by Lyman years ago. I believe Lyman later reduced it slightly. However I still use 25gr. IMR4227.

Best regards,

CJR

Bazoo

10-15-2018, 05:55 PM

I have an update finally.

I gave the gun a more thorough inspection the other day, and I believe that Ruger has recut the forcing cone. The forcing cone was smooth, now, it has spiral cutting marks, and appears deeper than I remember it. The tool marks are quite pronounced now. The end of the rifling was more pronounced, as I recall, than it is now. The paper I received back with the gun said that they adjusted the timing, nothing else.

I sold the accurate 434240 A/AG mould, and now have procured an RCBS 44-245-SWC. It casts small, at around .429. However, I lubed them and run them through the .430 sizer as some of them would measure .430.

I loaded a box of 44 specials to try. In magnum cases, 5.0 grains of HP-38, BAC lube, straight wheel weights. RCBS 44-245-SWC. I cant remember the weight, but it was right at either 248 or 249 grains.

I shot half a box. Well... the leading is much better. I previously would have had some serious leading in the forcing cone, and first part of the rifling, and some in the forcing cones. Now, there is some in the forcing cone, but thats to be expected with it rough as a cob. However, there was none in the barrel and none in the cylinder throats.

I wish i'd thought ahead and kept some of the Accurate 434240A bullets to compare. So I am not sure if the bullet shape has made any difference or if it is just what Ruger did.

So now im going either smooth the forcing cone or find a gunsmith to do it. I dont know what angle it is. Will Ruger have recut it at a different angle other than factory?

Bazoo

11-19-2018, 02:25 AM

I loaded some 44 special +p ammo with 8 grains of unique, and it leaded the forcing cone and the first inch or so of barrel pretty bad.

Some copper scrub pad around the bore brush took it down to steel in about 5 minutes. If im not mistaken, thats Veral Smiths technique. Found the scrub pads at the local grocery store 2 for 50 cents, cedar brand.

I bought an 11 degree forcing cone hone, the rod and the muzzle protector. I tried lapping out the cone using my fire lapping kit's compound. It helped it a fair amount, but the compound also cut into the hone, so it wont smooth more than that now.

I slugged my barrel, and I still have a constriction, so I figured i'd fire lap it. I fire lapped it with 3.5 grains of HP-38, cleaned and checked it, and am going to do more of the course grit. I've run 24 bullets with the course through and have some improvement in the constriction, but its still there. Im going to do the next with a larger charge, probably 5 grains of HP-38. I think the extra pressure will make it cut better. Of the research i've done, most folks are using squib loads for fire lapping though. I've seen some reports of folksing running 50 rounds or some high number of rounds before their constriction went away.

Im Not real sure of what im doing, but im winging it, like I wing everything else. I dont see any noticeable problem though, like the rifling being worn down noticeably.

Anyways the fire lapping has blown grit back into the forcing cone and its smoothed it some more so that part is going to be fine.