Marlin 1894 .44 Mag...sideways bullets...

[Surfdog]

Folks,

I picked up an inexpensive, used Marlin 1894 made in the late 70's. My goto cast load of a lyman 429244 over 18.3grs of 2400 literally had me spraying bullets all over the target...sideways...at 25 yards. I believe that the bullet drops from the mold at .429

A 5.5gr of W231 under a non-gas checked MP 433640 and it would print a 1.5" round group for 5 shots and drops from the mold at .433 and was sized to .432

Is this typical for the microgroove? I know that the bores are typically oversized, but I did not expect bullets to be sideways at 25 yards!

Surfdog

[shoot-n-lead]

Mine have LARGE bores...but, I have never had them keyhole a bullet at any distance...much less, at 25yds.

However, I never got decent groups with cast, gave up and went to jacketed bullets...just got fed up with trying.

[tbceja]

It's junk sell it to me lol. I know the twist rate on a lot of those is slow and won't stabilize a heavy bullet ad that with it being .429 but keyhole at 25 is extreme. I would like to see what happens with a .432 bullet at the same weight. What weight is the bullet that is giving you problems?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Wally]

I had one from the 80's...horrible accuracy with any cast bullets..hard or soft. I now have a .444...fortunately .431" cast bullets are accurate in it up to 1,600 FPS. I am afraid that yours will only do well with Jacketed bullets. In the .44 Magnum I have a Win 94...it shoots cast bullets very well...sized to .431".

[Poygan]

Mine likes the 429421 sized at .431. I haven't experimented a lot but this boolit with 4227 worked well today. Plan to try the Lee 200 grain boolit with more combinations for less recoil. It kinda liked this boolit with Universal today. 4X scope helps, too. I seem to recall it liked the RCBS 240 with gas checks....

[Surfdog]

Intersting responses. The 429244 bullet is a gas checked SWC that is 255grs. I'm think that there is something wrong with the load, not the rifle, but to keyhole at 25 yards just is astonishing to me...

Oh, yes...the rifle has a 1.5x4.5 Bausch and Lomb Elite on it...and it seems to be working fine...

[Outpost75]

In a MicroGroove Marlin you need to be sizing bullets not less than .430 if in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and light loads with plainbased bullets at .44-40 velocities up to 1300 fps, and .432-.433" for full-charge .44 Magnum loads with harder bullets BHN 12-15 BHN.

[Nobade]

However big a bullet will slip into a fired case is what you want to use. Mine shoots great with .433"bullets, terrible with anything less. If I want to use some of my normal size moulds I just paper patch the bullets they throw. Size to .427" and patch to .433" Works like a champ.

-Nobade

[GhostHawk]

I had the exact same problem with a 9mm. Soon as I quit fussing around with .356's and loaded a .359 - 360 keyholes went away, group went from shotgun patterns to better than jacketed.

Bullet fit is king, and must be right FIRST. Everything else follows.

Take a lead bullet and smack it with a rubber mallet fairly hard. Or you can do the same thing with mechanical advantage. Either will shorten it a smidge and make it bigger. Does not take much to go from .429 to .432 or .433.

[frankmako]

what i have found out in my early 1970 1894 44 mag likes slow running cast bullets. keep it around 1,200 fps or under for best groups out to 200 meters. also they need to be sized .431 or larger. slug the rifle to see the correct size. my rifle will group good with fmj and or plated if i keep it around 1,600 fps or under.

[wv109323]

I have the same problems with the exact same rifle. I could not get my cast bullets to shoot at all. I was using 200 gn. Lee molds, not sure of number. Yes 25 yards is enough to get keyholes. At 50 yards I could not hit a target 8X11". I could get jacketed boolits and commercial cast boolits to shoot well. These bullets would around 1" at 50 yards. I have powder coated boolits to try. I have not tried those yet.

[Drm50]

I have a 1970 1894 saddle ring. Only purpose is legal deer rifle in Ohio. I couldn't better than 4"
at 100yds. with cast of 5 different WTS up to 240g. Ended up with Horn XTP 240s / 22.5 of
H2400. It will cut clovers at 60yds. my sight in distance.

[historicfirearms]

Your rifle needs a bigger diameter boolit. Likely .432 or .433. Measure the inside of a fired case mouth to get you close to the diameter you need.

[Dusty Ed]

Howdy SurfDog
Slug Your Rifle Bore an Size your bullet .002 over the size of your slug .
Keep your velocity below 1500 fps , preferably between 1200 an 1300 fps

[ReloaderFred]

The SAAMI specification for .44 Magnum RIFLE bores is .431". Whatever the reason, that's what they chose for rifles in that caliber, but handgun specs are .429". You need to slug the bore and find out what size bullet you actually need, but I'm going to bet it's at least .431", but probably .432" or .433".

Hope this helps.

Fred

[17nut]

The wast majority of MG Marlins are on the huge side and a .44 clocking in at .432-.433" is not unheard of!

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Marlin/Bore%20Dimensions%20Doc1%20small_zpsyiez020c.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Marlin/Bore%20Dimensions%20Doc1%20small_zpsyiez020c.jpg.h tml)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Marlin/Nominal%20Bore%20Dimensions%20Doc1%20small_zpskfqu gtfi.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Marlin/Nominal%20Bore%20Dimensions%20Doc1%20small_zpskfqu gtfi.jpg.html)

Mine from '72 on the other hand measures @ .4295" and shoots like a lazer with cast.
Here it is after @4,5k shots and but a boresnake twice a year:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Marlin/R0012037_zpsffolees5.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Marlin/R0012037_zpsffolees5.jpg.html)

So do what you was supposed to do before you started shooting and go slug that barrel, so you know what size bullets to feed the beast.
In general @275grains bullets are as heavy as the 1:38" twist will stabilize but some have found 300gr bullets to shoot fine.

[Surfdog]

I will slug it and post the results, although you folks have already confirmed my thoughts...I just thought it unlikley that a undersized cast boolit would keyhole at 25 yards...but apparently that is very possible. The MP bullets shot pretty good with no development sized at .432...next I'll try a LBT 260 sized the same...

Surfdog

[labradigger1]

You may want to run a tight patch through the bore to check for tight and loose spots.

[trapper9260]

I have one that I got used that is of 1980 and what ever I shot out of it is no problem and I size them to .430 for cast what ever I shoot out my RH will use the same in the Marlin. no keyhole,

[MyFlatline]

I've got a keyholer also. I size 431 432, still key hole. I am finding it has to do with my alloy and the short barrel. They don't key hole with the 20" barrel but do with the 16. Bumped up the BHN a few notches and things improved. Still need to do some more testing tho.

[longbow]

I had a few significant issues with mine:

- barrel slugs at 0.4315" groove but as already pointed out, that is SAAMI spec
- I started out with the famous 429421 so what could be bad there? Well, not only is the nose too long to feed well unless the boolit is seated deep but it cast at 0.429" so well undersize in my 0.4315" groove barrel. Shoulda slugged the bore before buying the mould. I was getting mediocre to poor accuracy and moderate leading. No keyholing though.
- My barrel was one that suffered from roll stamping and dovetail cutting causing constrictions in the bore. I read about that on the Marlin owners forum so checked my gun and sure enough, tight spots. So I lapped them out.

I now use boolits of 0.433"/0.434" with good accuracy and no leading.

I don't think there is anything wrong with microgroove barrels or cast boolits in microgroove barrels but make sure you slug the bore and use a boolit of at least 0.001" larger than groove diameter.

Longbow

[GooseGestapo]

I had a '70's vintage Marlin '94 in .44mag. With Lyman 429421 at .429" did EXACTLY the same thing.
IMO, all lead bullets for .44mag should be .431" minimum. My S&W 69 likes .431". My .1895 Marlin .45/70 wants .460" (don't have any larger sizers).

[bikerbeans]

Marlin overbored my 44-40 barrel, I need at least a .430" diameter to shoot cast. Groove on this barrel measures 0.4295" on this barrel. I can't use a larger bullet because of a tight neck.

BB

BB

[Drm50]

I have a 1970, 1894-44mg. I got it in a trade a few years back. The only reason for this rifle is
deer hunting in Ohio. I have several 44mg revolvers, my deer load for them is Hornady 240 JHP
21.5g of H-2400. I put a K3 on the 1894 and sighted in at 60yds. The gun would shoot 3/4" 5
shot groups consistently. I then shot a Gas checked SWC-hp at slightly less velocity. Sized to .430
Grouped just as well, with vert little point of impact difference at 60yds. I have never slugged the
barrel. I have no tight and loose spots. I think this difference in bore is caused by wear on tooling
during production. Their QC had to have a minimum and maximum diameter rejection spec.

[BAGTIC]

I suspect more problems with lead bullets are caused by them being too small than too large. Not much need to size a lead bullet unless it is too big to chamber. The gun itself is the best sizing die.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My Marlin 1894 CB with a 24" bbl. put it's first 25 or so rounds of reloads thru the target sideways at 50 ft! I pulled bullets and they were .428. This gun has a .431 groove dia. which is nominal SAAMI spec for .44 Mag Rifles.

I run boolits at .432 and everything is fine. Go to load is 429244 at .432 with 22.0 gr of H110.

Your problem is boolit size, nothing else. These guns are not hard to get to shoot right.

Randy

[Iowa Fox]

My Marlin 1894 CB with a 24" bbl. put it's first 25 or so rounds of reloads thru the target sideways at 50 ft! I pulled bullets and they were .428. This gun has a .431 groove dia. which is nominal SAAMI spec for .44 Mag Rifles.

I run boolits at .432 and everything is fine. Go to load is 429244 at .432 with 22.0 gr of H110.

Your problem is boolit size, nothing else. These guns are not hard to get to shoot right.

Randy

Same here.

I quit slugging bores a long time ago. I use molds that cast fat, I size fat with good lube, and if it will chamber the barrel can do the additional sizing it needs. Sounds hoaky I know but it works for me and NO leading with good accuracy.

[Nobade]

Same here.

I quit slugging bores a long time ago. I use molds that cast fat, I size fat with good lube, and if it will chamber the barrel can do the additional sizing it needs. Sounds hoaky I know but it works for me and NO leading with good accuracy.
This is why I keep repeating...if the bullet is just barely a slip fit in a fired case, it is the right size. It really does make things easy.

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[JohnH]

I have a Rossi and an NEF in 44 Mag. boolits of 430 and 432 diameter pattern more than group. An NOE copy of Keiths 250 grain semi wadcutter at 434 resolved that issue. I think the difference in bore/groove diameter between handgun and rifle barrels allowed by SAMMI has to do with the cylinder gap of revolvers. Still, maximum pressures should occur before the bullet fully exits the cylinder so no "pressure relief" should be needed. Tis a mystrey to me why SAMMI even created/allows this nonsense. Life would be much easier without it.

[ironhead7544]

My 1894 Cowboy with 24" barrel in 44 Magnum requires a .433 bullet. Very accurate with no leading.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a Rossi and an NEF in 44 Mag. boolits of 430 and 432 diameter pattern more than group. An NOE copy of Keiths 250 grain semi wadcutter at 434 resolved that issue. I think the difference in bore/groove diameter between handgun and rifle barrels allowed by SAMMI has to do with the cylinder gap of revolvers. Still, maximum pressures should occur before the bullet fully exits the cylinder so no "pressure relief" should be needed. Tis a mystrey to me why SAMMI even created/allows this nonsense. Life would be much easier without it.

But that reason is exactly why they did it. opening up the grooves .002 made a significant difference but more importantly it put a little more safety cushion in place that wasn't there before.

When I called Marlin inquiring why my barrel was .431 instead of .429 the guy I talked to clued me in and after I went to the SAAMI site and looked it up for myself to confirm that he wasn't just pulling my leg to get me to go away, I realized why it was done.

Now if we could just get them to make 1:20 twist barrel for the .44's and .45's. The original 1:38 twist was derived from that dreaded Greenhill Formula and carried over from the .44-40 to the .44 Mag. It works OK for short fat boolits like you'd shoot in a .44-40 but as the boolits get longer with the .44 Mags ability to push bigger boolits it all falls apart and all you can do to get them to stabilize is make them go faster and faster. That obviously has limits.

Randy

[Surfdog]

Surfdog Update:

I appreciate all the good feedback, and I'm happy to verify that all boolits I've loaded that are .432 shoot great, and at all speeds.

For reference, here are the bullets and loads that performed the best at this point in time. I was just testing gross accuracy and have yet to fine tune the loads much.

6.5gr W231 over a MP 433640 HP (210 Hollow Point) cast with 16-1 shoots an honest 3/4" group at 25 yards with a Skinner peep.

8.0gr of W231 over an LBT .432 WFNGC (260 Big Meplat) cast with 16-1 shoots an honest 1" group at 25 yards with a Skinner peep with no bruising :p

I'm going to be curious to chronograph these loads, because I was looking to put together some light pistol loads that shoot well in the rifle. I believe both the above loads will be good deer loads within 50 yards, which is all the farther I'd expect to shoot these limited recoil loads.

I'd also like to thank Beagle for helping me choose to buy the MP 433640 HP Mold. It shoots great in the Marlin, and my S&W 329PD....unfortunately I think my Ruger SBH just does not like light bullets...

Surfdog

[crackshotsdad]

After reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I have an 'odd ball' Marlin 1894. It will do a cloverleaf at 50 yards with Lee's 310 grain gc sized to .430. In an effort to extend the practical range of the rifle, I've been experimenting with some lighter cast boolit designs. I have a 200 gr rnfp gc from Accurate Molds that I sized to .430 loaded over 26.4 gr of w296. Using a Lead Sled and a Nikon scope, I printed 2 consecutive 2 1/2" 5 shot groups at 200 yards, much to the disbelief of my Son, my long-range-shooting buddy, and the range officer that all witnessed it. I've never slugged the bore but I strongly suspect it is on the tight end of SAMMI's specs. Thoughts?.............

[Nobade]

Don't sell it. You have a good one.

[kidmma]

Remember if you use the Lee factory crimp die it may size that bullet down below the 430 diameter inside the case....