Surprising reacton on Christian forum

[Idaho45guy]

I joined a Christian forum last year that has over 100k members from all over the world. Giant site. I got burned out by a couple of the firearms sites that seem to be taken over by non-believers who take every opportunity to bash Christianity. I also found this site and have found it to be very, very polite compared to the others. Very happy!

So, recently the Christian site decided to create a new sub-forum for firearms. They were very clear that it was to be a safe-space forum for gun owners to discuss their hobby and interest in firearms and not a place to debate gun control or ownership, etc.

The forum has been open for about a month or so and despite there being a couple of troublemakers popping into threads here and there, it has been a pleasant place.

Then yesterday I started a thread/poll asking who carries a concealed pistol in church. I prefaced by saying I usually didn't in the past but have begun recently due to threats against Christians and conservatives by those on the left, especially relevant due to the current manhunt for the crazy guy in Wisconsin.

The thread was meant for the relatively small group of Christian gun owners.

Then a mod saw it and liked it so much he thought it should be a "featured" thread on the main page of the site. All hell broke loose.

Pages and pages of attacks by Christians against gun owners. Talk about the most intolerant, close-minded, hateful, mean-spirited people I have ever seen. I was accused of not being a Christian for owning a gun, having murder in my heart, being mentally ill, just awful things, really.

It really surprised me and made me question my faith. How can so many people profess to follow the same God and yet have so much hate and disagreement with their brother??

[merlin101]

All I can say is that those supposed Christians are just that," supposed". Ignore them as they may be nothing more than trolls or at best Sunday Christians.

[kungfustyle]

They have forgotten how and why our great country was founded. In Luke 22 Jesus tells the disciples to sell there coats and buy a sword. They already had two. The disciples were packing!!!!!!! No you are not anti anything but anti idiots. They are the ones with the problem and will be the first to run and hid when it hits the fan. There is a reason that God puts sheep dogs among his sheep. THERE ARE WOLVES! Stay strong in your faith and your calling as a sheepdog. Take a step back and look at where the church has gone. If they are a 5013c they are no longer allowed to preach the truth and are more concerned with money than getting God's word out and the congregation is suffering for it. Look at what has happened to marriage. Jesus said they hated him they will hate you.

[Half Dog]

I'm with you on this subject. It's people like that who helped to keep Obama elected.

[Chili]

Those people on that site can say those things from the comfort of their homes. It sounds obvious they have yet to face the persecution of Christians in other countries. If God was really against killing, would He have allowed David kill Goliath? How about Moses' parting of the Red Sea and then allowing it to close on Pharaoh's army killing them all?

The truth is many Churches have armed security. They are so well hidden, many of the members of those bodies do not know. My own pastor keeps a 357 mag in his desk and allows concealed weapons permit classes to be held on Church property.

Exodus 21:14, "But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die."

Exodus 22:2, "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him."

[EMC45]

I have faced the same thing online and in person with Christians.

The church my family and I have been visiting have multiple armed security personnel onsite. They have ear wires and wear a shirt denoting their security status. One fella looks like he carries a Desert Eagle! It is huge under his shirt. I have often times heard many conversations in the lobby and in small groups about guns, so the crowd is receptive for gun stuff. Last small home group I went to the leader took me out to his truck to show me his XD, so I think they are in tune to what I believe-both spiritually and socially.

[dragon813gt]

Sounds like Sunday Christians. Stab you in the back all week and then play the part on Sunday. I find these type of people deplorable. They're nothing more than liars.

[dverna]

Sadly, there are many like that. Your experience is not unique. As a non-believer looking for answers I can attest to being very aware of the hypocrisy many "Christians" exhibit. It causes me to question the value of organized religion as it seems that is where it is most prevalent. Most people ignore the obvious disconnect until it affects them personally.

But I have been blessed to know two Christians who are my closest friends...I have cried with them as I would with a brother. They both pray for me and one has been instrumental in moving me along the path to God. It has been a circuitous route, with a few dead ends...but I keep making progress. Still my BS meter is on high alert for the many Christians that are, at the worst, phonies; or, at the best, of such weak character that they are untrustworthy.

[JimB..]

Do not judge them, they are in a different place than you or I. Rejoice in the knowledge that the vile comments by some will cause other readers to question whom they've been listening too online.

Having said that, you might ask how many of them have jobs, do they not trust the Lord to provide for them? It's a 2nd grade argument, perfect for the Internet, but it moves the discussion away from absolutes which in an anti-gun crowd is a win.

[Idaho45guy]

Just so you know I'm not exaggerating the ridiculousness, here are some quotes... The really bad ones were deleted by the mods...

"I guess I'm supposed to pretend that it's okay if gun-loving Christians give Jesus a bad name.
But gun-loving Christians do give Jesus a bad name.
Gun lovers who call themselves Christians make other people think Jesus was a Warrior God."

"This is what following Jesus has come to, men with murder in their hearts claiming to be followers of the meek and lowly Jesus. You cannot prove by the New Testament that killing your opponent is being Christian."

"What is going on in Christian America?
Did Jesus die so that we could arm ourselves?
Did Jesus die so that we could feel the thrill of deadly power in our hands?
Is that why Jesus let those nails be driven into his nerve endings?
So we could shoot bullets into other people's nerve endings?
Or so that we could threaten to do so, and feel big and powerful?
Is that why Jesus died?"

[Pine Baron]

Ignorant people saying ignorant things...sad.

[gtrpickr]

Just because your a christian doesnt mean you dont have the right to protect yourself and your family. A couple years ago I bought a really nice Springfield XDS 45acp from a pastor. What gets me is the hypocrites that condem something and are sneaking off doing it themselves

[w5pv]

Most of the above post are the reason I don't attend an orginised church,I prefer tp worship God one on one and enjoy the suroundings that he put there for us to enjoy.

[frkelly74]

A church is really no different in the distribution of liberal leaning people and conservative leaning people. All kinds of people go to church. Our church is generally looked on as being really conservative and yet I did overhear a long time union electrician member who is retired say that he was voting for Hillary Clinton, I was surprised in spite of myself, but it goes to prove a point that all kinds of people are in any congregation. To be attacked on a forum comprised of christians or any forum really should not be surprising. Those who lean liberal have got to make their opinions heard, they can't help it. They believe that their way is the only way that makes sense and can not brook any disagreement. On the other hand a conservative , even if he or she is in the majority may want to live and let live. They want no interference and also give no interference. They will be quiet and hope everyone behaves. The difference is cultural.

[Ickisrulz]

How many people really sit down and think about what they believe and why they believe it? People are a certain political party because their parents were. People believe what they do about God because that is what they have been taught in church and in their home.

There are people who are genuine Christians who have all kinds of "crazy" ideas because they have not educated themselves or questioned what they have been taught. This isn't too different from non-Christians.

[Blackwater]

Unfortunately, a lot of Christian believers have PC and Christianity mixed up, and can't tell where one begins and the other ends. Just because we're believers doesn't mean we're all of one accord, or necessarily believe all the same things. Some 140 years ago, Mark Twain wrote, "Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers," and unfortunately, that covers some of us believers as well as the average population. We don't become perfect or errorless in our thinking and acts just because we come to believe. We're just saved sinners, and as another old saying goes, "A leopard doesn't change its spots," or at least it doesn't overnight.

Most people are motivated MUCH more strongly by their emotions than by their intellect. This was the downfall of quite a few characters in the Bible. Remember how both David and Solomon were led astray by women? Passions are always a constant source of our erroneous decisions, and perhaps today more than ever. Whenever we try to think with our hearts and feel with our heads, we strongly tend to err, and often grievously.

It's just human beings being human, and not even salvation can make us all perfect or of one accord, unfortunately. A GOOD Christian just accepts the things he can't change, and does all he CAN to make things better. And that's hard enough for us error-prone humans, usually!

We shooters who also believe will NEVER convince all believers that "Thou shalt not kill" really meant "Thou shalt not murder." ALL killing is not "murder," but these days, PC makes it impossible for all people to recognize and accept that. And many, many fear guns, because they have no knowledge of them, or other factors, and people tend to want things they fear to "just go away." It's foolish, of course, and it IS written that "A strong man, armed, keepeth his house in good order." But most believers don't really "study to show thyself approved," and thus, kind'a tend to make up their own "interpretations" of scripture without really knowing them to start with.

This has long been a plague on us believers, and has resulted in many non-believers pointing toward our variations and inconsistencies as a "reason" for their disbelief, as though WE were responsible for their choice to disbelieve. That's sheer foolishness, of course, but they like needling us for not being "perfect" in their sight.

But Christ said we'd not have it EASY as believers. Those who've studdied and know and have honestly and earnestly sought the real meanings behind the words, know things that the more lacadaisical types will never know, or often, even WANT to learn. Many seem to prefer what they make up than what the actual contents of the Bible really are. And enough of it is ambiguous enough that only those who really WANT to know, after much study and consideration, can actually glean from the scriptures. Being a Christian is a constant challenge on many fronts. This is really a "minor" one, but one that CAN have serious effects on a nation. I fear for what kind of world my grandboys will work and live in, in time. People today seem to want to argue rather than discuss issues. It's a plague on our nation, and I don't see it changing any time soon, unfortunately.

[buckwheatpaul]

I still remember the first church shooting....happened in Dangerfield Texas....since that time the number of church shootings have mushroomed and will continue to grow as more and more people become more intolerant of Christians......those that are bashing you should get downwind of themselves they have the issues....not you.....they are sheeples and the wolves are definitely out there.

[Boaz]

I have dodged this thread , nothing wrong with it but folks are folks ...Christian or not . We all have our own ideas . Guns scare some that didn't grow up with them , it's our obligation to teach ...pretty simple . Knives , shovels , brick bats can kill or injure . In my mind guns are not 'biblical' , although the bible speaks of ..buying a sword [chosen weapon of the time) or the right and ability to defend your life or others . ....We have the right to defend ourselves or others regardless of the means at our disposal . Owning a 'gun' in responsible hands can save your life ...that belongs to GOD ?

[mold maker]

It takes tolerance and thick skin to be a Christian or gun owner, let alone both. As posted above Obama got elected twice and Hillary won the 2016 popular vote.
There is a mindset that doesn't recognize your right to an opinion other than the one they share. If some one shows curiousity, share your feelings a little bit at a time and listen closely for their reaction. At any point they show an argumentative attitude, back off and let them have time to think about it without confrontation.
Given time they might come back to honestly discuss the subject again. Even some stanch hard heads will eventually come around to realize you have something to share, that is of interest.
Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.

[Boaz]

It takes tolerance and thick skin to be a Christian or gun owner, let alone both. As posted above Obama got elected twice and Hillary won the 2016 popular vote.
There is a mindset that doesn't recognize your right to an opinion other than the one they share. If some one shows curiousity, share your feelings a little bit at a time and listen closely for their reaction. At any point they show an argumentative attitude, back off and let them have time to think about it without confrontation.
Given time they might come back to honestly discuss the subject again. Even some stanch hard heads will eventually come around to realize you have something to share, that is of interest.
Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.


'Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.'

I totally agree ! Thank you .

[JimB..]

'Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.'

I totally agree ! Thank you .

Or, based on the quotes, of even a modicum of tolerance.

[JSnover]

It really surprised me and made me question my faith. How can so many people profess to follow the same God and yet have so much hate and disagreement with their brother??
No need to question your faith. Question theirs, or at least question their judgement.

[GhostHawk]

Well I have to admit a lot of my faith is tied into my conservative roots.
I never saw my dad carry a gun. But he was the only sparring partner who could stay in the ring with his friend who happened to win the Golden Gloves that year.

I don't think there was a half a dozen times in his life that Dad felt like he could not handle whatever had to be handled without a gun. He was a peace loving man who hated fights. He had 5 brothers constantly arguing and wanting him to take their side.
So instead of asking for his dad to give him land like his brothers all did he bought his. And he bought it 8 miles away. So he could have some peace and quiet.

I have in my 64 years never seen him hit someone in anger. He came close once.
He came home from the farm around 7 in the evening. I was 6, my older brother bob was 8. Mom was on the couch crying buckets. We were hiding.

Whats wrong he thundered. "The k ki kids sssss sasssed me. Wouldn't listen"

Thunder rolled. Boys, you better be here saying sorry to your mom when I get back.

He disappeared into the basement. Terrible sounds came drifting up. Sawing, first the power saw, then the hand saw. Then the plane shaping and smothing.

He came up the stairs calm, cool, collected. He knew exactly what he was doing.
In his hand was a 18' chunk of rough cut cottonwood inch and a half thick. One end carved down to fit ma's smaller hands.

Dad whispered "what did you do?" We sass'd mom, backtalked, did not obey, ran off.
Are you going to do it again? No sir, no sir, never.

Turn around, grab your ankles. He gave me 6 fair taps, and my brother 8. Who promptly questioned it. You are older, you are supposed to know better, you are supposed to be a good example.

Then he turned to mom. The day you break this over one of my sons backsides. Is the day I take you 40 miles to town and buy you a whole brand new outfit. Then he added for emphasis. With SHOES!

Then he turned back to us. And if you get big enough, and she can't do it, I will.

Mom never had to use it. If she grabbed it and shook it we were done. She still has it.

Dad used it a couple of times.

When it was all done, he sat down in his chair, called me to him, lifted me into his lap. And we talked. About why what we had done was wrong. About how it was dangerous for all of us. And about how someday we too might have a child that needs to be spanked. I think it was the hardest thing he ever did. To get control of the anger, to do what needed doing.

I don't concealed carry a gun. I do have a 3.5 inch knife that I carry every day.
I can get it into action in about 2 seconds. Assisted open.

If someone was being shot I like to think I would watch for a time when I could make a difference and use it.

I don't want to live by the sword. But I won't be held, tortured, or watch it happen to those I care about while I stand by and do nothing. If it gets bad enough I would concealed carry. And I am lucky, as of Aug 1st North Dakota citizens can concealed carry with only a valid drivers license. Nothing else needed. As it should be.

The only way to stop a bad man with a gun is for a good man to have a gun and use it. Police are not in the business of stopping crimes. The are in the business of punishing them. In most cases they can not get there fast enough to prevent anything.

I believe that God helps those who help themselves first.
That includes being prepared for things to go wrong.

I have no ill will in my heart towards anyone.
But I have been through hell, and I say never again. Not while I am alive and able to do something about it.

I don't think that makes me less Christian. I reckon I won't know for sure until I stand before my maker.

[sghart3578]

The subject of this thread is one of the reasons I have left the Catholic Church. I don't get along with the lefties and their thinking.

[fatelk]

'Claiming to be a Christian is no guarantee of an open mind.'
+1 to that. Or even a remotely good person for that matter. I have a brother-in-law who was a pastor, and I could tell stories...

On the other hand, rejecting Christianity because of some hypocrites is a small-minded cop-out. Christians are people just like anyone else; with all different levels of sincerity, understanding, and maturity. It's a little more wise to consider one's beliefs based on the best understanding and merits of the faith.

I've known Atheists and Muslims who were genuinely nicer people than some Christians I know, and who I would prefer as neighbors or friends, but I'm neither Atheist nor Muslim, because I reject those faiths based on an understanding of the faiths, not the people.

[johnson1942]

to even think politics and being a christian in the same breath is unacceptable. american christians are watered down, it makes no difference if your left or right, but is you mix it with being a real christian, it is making it worthless. when you go into Gods house its all about God and his Son and nothing else at all. our church is made up of left and right but no one ever talks about it in church. it will get in the way of your service to each other and your prayers for each other. if you carry a gun concealed in church and it is legal, dont tell anyone about it.i could careless if you do or dont or if your sitting next to me. just dont let anyone know as then you invite anyone to make a comment about it. and what is taking about guns doing on a christian talk site? that sure was a step down for that site or even this site. when christians get to gether it should be about the Father and his Son and building up the body of believers and nothing else or it is just wasted moment and not worth the time. you did nothing wrong except tell some about it. remember the internet is a open door meeting and anyone can attend. your not going to like alot of the people who come through that door. it sounds like to me that a lot of those to the right think no one from the left are going to heaven. well ive got news for you, its about if you have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and accepted Christ as you Savior, not if your left or right. lets cowboy up here and stop the political christain talk, one has nothing to do with the other. EVER.

[Char-Gar]

And folks say that Muslims are intolerant of people who hold religious views different from theirs.

[Bzcraig]

This really is an interesting thread. Much of what I'm going to say has already been mentioned in various posts. First, there are many, many liberal Christians, not only politically, but theologically, socially, fiscally, and idealistically, so it is no surprise you got those responses. Let's not forget that being a Christian simply means being a Christ follower, not meaning we all agree theologically​. As long as they are following the Jesus of the Bible (acknowledging his deity) then it really could become a pretty good theological debate. But them being buttheads is wrong on every level. However, the one passage of Scripture that cannot be debated regarding this is, at least in my mind, Romans 13. Beginning in verse 1 it explains the government is established by God, not debatable. If that is so and owning guns is legal (and Constitutional), including concealed carry, whether in church or out, it's a moot point! I will never attempt to debate with anyone whose idea of debating includes personal attacks.

[Hamish]

We have concealed carry in the state of Illinois because of the violent attack on a church secretary.

Pay at no attention to the badly mistaken. Pay close attention to the innate Creator given desire for self defence and the preservation of life and limb.

Sheep get no vote on what the sheepdog does.

[fatelk]

lets cowboy up here and stop the political christain talk, one has nothing to do with the other. EVER.

I get where you're coming from, I really do, and I don't mean to challenge it, but I had a recent discussion with a friend about the same subject. The pastor preached a sermon on politics after the election saying pretty much what you are, but he kind of took it a step farther to say that politics doesn't really matter, Democrat or Republican, that we pretty much need to get over it and forget about it, that both sides can be good, sincere Christians. He seemed to imply that both sides were equally right and wrong. He specifically said "Get real, Hillary's not going to take your guns." (Not to me personally, but from the pulpit)

I liked much of what he had to say, but wasn't convinced about the rest. I agree that church is no place for politics, and that all types can be sincere Christians. What I disagreed with was the statement that it doesn't matter. That really seems to diminish the hard work of those who have been fighting for this country politically. I totally agree that Democrats can be sincere Christians and good people, but given the fact that the current Democrat party is wholly owned by the radical left, and the radical left is openly hostile towards any sort of Bible believing Christianity, can a mature Bible-believing Christian really be an informed, loyal Democrat? I'm not going to judge anyone, but I have a hard time understanding how. Again, I agree that church is not the place to push politics for politics sake, but I disagree that it's not important. Sincere Christians can be Democrats or Republicans, radical environmentalists, hard left, hard right, or even Nazis for that matter. Sincere Christians can also be politically very wrong.

I have relatives who are good people. They are generous, attend church, identify as Christian, and are just nice people. They are also what is considered the "religious left". Thoroughly Marxist, Bernie supporters, voted socialist 30 years ago because the Democrats weren't liberal enough. They like certain "Christian ideals" such as love and giving and helping the poor, but reject much/most of the rest of the Bible, including some important foundational stuff. I'm pretty open to different views, and figure it's not my place to question someone's faith, but to be honest I do not consider them to be Christian, any more than the pastor in Portland who came out as an Atheist, who says he's Christian because he believes in the feel-good teachings of Christ, but doesn't believe in God. Again, I'm against pushing politics in church, but do we really have to water church down to the point where we avoid anything controversial except loving everyone and helping the poor?

I truly don't mean to be judgemental; I've just been mulling these kinds of things recently.

Added: on second thought, I'm thinking that my musings here might be more fitting in "politics & religion" and perhaps inappropriate here? If a moderator deems that to be the case, please delete this post. I don't want to cause dissension in the Chapel.

[sghart3578]

In my parrish I couldn't escape politics, as much as I wanted to. It was spewed from the pulpit from several priests who relished their community organizing roles and bragged constantly about being arrested in different protests.

My younger brother is a member of a Christian church in southern California and he tells me that it is much the same with him.

It took me years to make my wife see that the Democrat supporting Catholic church was indirectly supporting abortion by their political affiliations.

I don't need my priest telling me to give up my guns and take in Muslim refugees.

If you are cool with that then you can have my old seat at the pew.

My last statement on this and I am sorry if I offend my fellow Catholics or any of my KOC brothers. Wake up, the modern Catholic church is focused on getting us to be politically compliant with the left and all of their social engineering experiments.

I long for the day when a true Catholic leader emerges to take the up sword against deviants and usurpers. Who would defend Christians with force if necessary. That would be a leader that I could swear allegiance to.

[johnson1942]

apart of my christian life is prayer for the needs of another human being when the Holy Spirit it on my heart. if i put every one in a box i would most likely ending up praying for my wife and some of my children only. i do not care who they are or what they think in politics as that is worldly and God looks beyond that. if the Holy Spirit tell me to pray for some one i have to do it or the Holy Spirit will move on to someone else to do it. the ministers of to day or priests of to day should have one message and one message only, God and His Son. there are a 1000 ways to preach that message and all the rest of the rabbit hole stuff will take care of its self and need never ever to come up in church. our pastor also preached a post election message similar to the one mentioned. a couple of elders went to him in private and said do not ever do that again, this is Gods house and politics is not welcome here.about the gun thing. if it is legal and know one knows as it is CONCEALED and not open carry, never tell anybody about it. why would anyone tell anyone about it. i drive to town now and then because they have not much wind there when i walk a couple of miles. in my pocket is a very very small very well made 38. ive never ever told anyone but you all about it. some things are better left quiet. if your going to serve God and his Son, serve them, if your going to serve man, then serve him, its up to each person.

[EMC45]

In my parrish I couldn't escape politics, as much as I wanted to. It was spewed from the pulpit from several priests who relished their community organizing roles and bragged constantly about being arrested in different protests.

My younger brother is a member of a Christian church in southern California and he tells me that it is much the same with him.

It took me years to make my wife see that the Democrat supporting Catholic church was indirectly supporting abortion by their political affiliations.

I don't need my priest telling me to give up my guns and take in Muslim refugees.

If you are cool with that then you can have my old seat at the pew.

My last statement on this and I am sorry if I offend my fellow Catholics or any of my KOC brothers. Wake up, the modern Catholic church is focused on getting us to be politically compliant with the left and all of their social engineering experiments.

I long for the day when a true Catholic leader emerges to take the up sword against deviants and usurpers. Who would defend Christians with force if necessary. That would be a leader that I could swear allegiance to.


Well put. You have "priests" like "father" Pfleger and the Pope who I believe is on a socialist bent.

[Blackwater]

I too have noted the Catholic priests who make it into the media, but there are many more who are of a very different bent. ALL Catholics and priests are NOT liberal by ANY means, so let's not go throwing the baby out with the bathwater, lest we disparage some really great believers with genuine conservative values. I believe the word "catholic" means "composed of many sources." They're very ecclectic, except when it comes to official church policy. Much of their theology is amazingly clear and well supported. I find much wisdom in it. Some of the rest, I haven't made up my mind about, and am presently quite resistant to a bit of it, but the rest still has value, when properly read.

But that's also true of most other sects as well. Personally, I've heard some terribly liberal stuff come from Baptist preachers, and I've almost never dealt with or countered it. I have, on occasion, asked rather pointed and clearly relevant questions of the speaker, but there's nothing good going to come from arguing with a preacher, and maybe especially a Baptist one.

It's unfortunate that many believers assume so much is "Biblical" when it's really much more attitude and PC than it is Biblical. Lots of folks don't have the time to really study the Bible deeply and thoroughly, so .... how could they be expected to NOT come up with some extraneous "solutions" from time to time? I've come to just chuckle, and ask a few questions in as friendly a manner as I can, and sometimes, I get that "doe in the headlights" look with just a question, kind'a like being caught unzipped in church.

Arguing doesn't convert many people. All it CAN do is confront them with another set of facts and a view. But in today's world, the more people argue, the more dead set they become on their initial statement, even AFTER being confronted with the fact that it can't possibly be that way. Truly, we humans are a willful and prideful lot, and those factors SO often get in the way of our edification and obtaining some real wisdom. I know I'm still working on it, but it's a very slow process to gain real wisdom. We're all "works in progress," and I just hope we can all find what we're really looking for before we self-destruct. It's a good thing God takes better care of us than we often take of ourselves! And he DOES!

[cpileri]

Don't let satan win.
Satan puts up many obstacles to staying the course.




The subject of this thread is one of the reasons I have left the Catholic Church.

[cpileri]

I too have noted the Catholic priests who make it into the media, !


There has always been a bad problem with bad priests because there have always been bad human beings. For example, if you read 1 Samuel 2:22, you will find out that the two priests who were sons of Eli were publicly known for sleeping with the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. This was the ancient equivalent of sleeping with your church secretary.
Now if you had lived in Old Testament times and judged the religion of Israel by the performance of some of its priests, you would have missed out on the true religion. In the same way today, if you judge a Church by the performance of some of its priests or ministers, the same thing will happen: You will miss out on the true religion of God.


Jesus said that we are to judge a tree by its fruits, but that is a test for the quality of individual ministers, not the truth of religious systems.

[Char-Gar]

Politics of some sort is dissolved into Christianity like salt in the sea. Jesus was very critical of the Jewish leadership of his day, which was also the political leadership. Though Palestine was a Roman province, the Romans delegated the day to day operations to the Jewish Sanhedrin. The principal interest of the Romans was in collective taxes. The criticism by Jesus is what drove the Jewish leadership to have the Romans kill him on trumped up charges. There has never been a time when Christianity did not bump hard again the political establishment wherever it was.

Throughout history, Chritians have been for or against various governments. From the Pilgrims to Hitler's Germany, there has been both conflict and support. Why should we think it is any different today?

Christianity has much to say about how individual Christians and Christian groups relate to each other and to the world. These belief, diverse as they are work their ways into laws and attitudes toward a government and it's people. The Christian faith was a driving force in forming the thinking about how America was to be formed and the shape it took.

Bottom line is politics has always been and will always be intermingled with the Christian faith, whether we like it or not. Today we tend to seek out churches that nurture out beliefs about how we should live and function as a nation. Conversely we avoid those who don't. No reason to get spun up, just bear up or go elsewhere and find groups that are supportive of your point of view. Political diversity in the church is certainly no reason to rend your cloak and beat your breast.

[fatelk]

You said it far better than I could have, Char-Gar. I have seen both sides of politics and church. On one hand you have the political church, where one's politics seem to be more important than their faith. On the other hand is the church where anything that could be politically controversial is strictly taboo.

Our previous church before we moved was fairly conservative as far as the people in the congregation. The pastor was pretty conservative also, but not in a politically activist way. He's just an intelligent, principled family man with admirable integrity.

As he preached through the Bible he would occasionally touch on things that could be considered political, as you would expect. He's not the type to push politics for politics sake, just to honestly consider these issues as they relate to scripture, faith, and real life.

Any time he touched on something that sounded slightly political, he got visibly nervous, and extremely cautious with how he worded things. I thought that was odd considering the makeup of the congregation. I then heard from a reliable source that the head deacon (a government employee and a Democrat) had essentially threatened him, that he better stay away from any of that right-wing political stuff, or else.

The pastor wasn't the type to push politics, but he wasn't the type to be stifled either. They left shorty after we did.

The internal politics of church turn me off cold. I've seen and heard stuff in church business meetings that made me cringe, and realize that there really are a lot of hypocrites in the pews, and in leadership. That doesn't stop us from going, just makes us realize the church is made up of human beings, with all our human flaws, hypocrisy, and ugliness.

[Traffer]

This is only MY OPINION:
There are many Christians nowadays that see "traditional Christianity" as evil "legalism". They believe in a progressive Christianity. I had been in a church like that for several years. To me they are very poorly informed non-Biblical "do gooders". It is really not a church but more like a social group where people do charity work...only. They accuse others of judging them but judge others according to what they do or do not do as volunteers for community projects. It is easy to determine who they are. The people who want to form groups to challenge "climate change". The people who are silent when it comes to condemning abortion. The people who walk out when a hard sermon is preached. Yes there are many whole "churches" like this. It is one of the reasons that I have tried to get people to take a serious look at Gorsuch. His congregation and denomination is much like that. (I did a half hour research on Google to find out.) Most folks here live in the South. If you were to go to random "churches" in north, east or west coast, you might have a rude awakening. Broad is the road that leads to destruction. There is a lot of "broad road" pseudo-Christianity out there folks. Where supposed Christians are pro-womens right to choose abortion, pro-homosexuality, pro-women pastors, anti-gun, anti-american, etc.
Sorry but my heart grieves over the Church and sometimes I express that. With this in mind, there is also an element in the church that is on the other extreme. The individuals are probably more offensive. Those who really are racists, and haters of their fellow man. Individuals who are always ready to escalate a conversation to incite hatred and ill will toward others. Those who are filled with glee over conflicts they see and read about.
My most recurrent prayer is for the Church. (I mean all of those who are in Christ) would return to God with all of their hearts, we would turn this world upside down in a hurry. I believe that if even a substantial number of God's people would get radical about being yoked with Christ, God might grant us another great revival. We need a revival.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar is right on target, and Traffer makes some really salient points. Politics and our Faith ARE interrelated, but one doesn't have to control the other, though many seem to make that mistake. And today, PC has become so much of a "virtual religion" in so many, that many believers have fallen prey to it just because it "sounds good" at first hearing. PC, though, was developed and spread by libs, SPECIFICALLY to allow they to spew their confusion and error in otherwise good discussions and arguments about some of the important aspects of our daily lives, our attitudes, and our behavior. It ALSO sought to stifle the expression of traditional values and conservative thought. It was, since the outset, a contrivance to allow libs to get the upper hand. But that part of it flew right over most folks' heads.

I really feel for preachers, who pretty much all must deal with these things, and their effect on their congregations. It's virtually a no-win situation. My own preacher tries hard to avoid politics, and when and IF he says anything abou it, he's got to be pretty sure no one will take offense at what he DOES say. Get him one-on-one, though, and he'll unload, and his assessments are spot on and he can back them up with good scriptures and analogies from the Bible. Preachers today have to walk a fine line, and it's probably a highly developed art form for them to walk it effectively. People almost seem to HUNT for things to be insulted or offended about!

The quote that comes to mind when I hear PC masquerading as "Christianity," is "There but for the grace of God go I." I've led a very varied and complex life that's allowed me to see many things that most will never see in their time here. I may not be that bright, but I DO try to pay attention, and think about the things I see, and what they mean, and how they came to be as they are. As an old Judge of mine used to be fond of saying, "Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then if he just keeps rooting." There's a lot of Truth in that, and perhaps my greatest asset in life has been the simple fact that I've never stopped searching and learning and observing, so I can learn yet more. I've still got an awful long way to go before I get to where I'd really like to be, but ..... what else do I have to do in this world, BUT that???

People who can't separate their politics out from their Faith need our prayers, just as Johnson said. Personally, I feel a real NEED to be involved in politics, since it controls so much of our lives, but my Faith is my NECESSITY. Nothing else takes precedence over my Faith. It can't. Faith is the cornerstone on which we build our lives. Lacking Faith, one is much like an anchorless ship, drifting wherever the tides and winds drive it to. Having a simple anchor in life CAN and often DOES keep us from much harm and sorrow. I think that anchor slips when one of our group gets strung out on political matters, kind'a like the tail wagging the dog. Just MHO, of course, but I think we all know and understand that not all who claim "religion" are truly Christian. Christ himself said, "Many will come in my name and say yea, yea, but they do not know me." I'll leave the judging to Him, but a certain amount of assessment is necessary for us to evaluate what to do and who to believe, perhaps now more than ever.

[w5pv]

Go find you a good quiet place in the woods and talk to Gods creations,to me this is the ultimate way to worship.No politics involved just you and God one on one

[Blackwater]

Amen! There's nothing more restorative, and to get our minds back on track again, than some quiet time, away from all the shouting and accusations, with what God so wonderfully and lovingly created for us. Too many get caught up in the whirlwind of political thought, and can't seem to find their way out again. They really need our prayers, a LOT!

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Never let junk make you question your faith or your salvation. You are only responsible for your relationship with God, don't let the devil deceive you. Deception is his only weapon, and he uses very well.

Have a blessed Easter,

Leon

[Preacher Jim]

Anyone who loves the Lord should never condemn another believer, take the log out of your own eye before you try to take the speck out of your brother.
That said come in the church I pastor, almost all the ladies have their pistols in their purses and the fellows one in their pocket or in a concealed holster.
We have shooting matches and bbqs twice a year and most folks hunt and fish. Is this a lack of faith no it is the world we live in created by the liberals do good erstwhile who need to get saved an start studying their bibles not blasting you. Hang in there brother Jesus is coming back an most of those liberals will be wondering where you went.

[Blackwater]

"A strong man armed, keepeth his house in good order." I carry in church, but have never divulged that fact. No need to go seeking trouble, and no need to cave in to the expectations of any other believer, either. Outside the church, just chuckle, and try (whether you think it'll do any good or not - give yourself a chance, at least, to be surprised) to get them to understand the logic and rationality of being ready and willing to deal with whatever comes up in this world of everprestent evil and hate. And the real kicker is to invite them out to try for themselves, or at least watch you. Make sure they have muffs, though! And if they'll just come to watch, once they see you shoot a little, they will usually give it a try themselves. Only a few will be so controlled by their fears that they won't at least give it a try.

For many, shooting will be exhilerating, and then you have a good "hook" to reel them in with. Keep feeding them ammo and showing them good technique, so they keep getting closer and closer to the target, and they'll get the feeling of success and accomplishment. Let them surprise themselves. It's not uncommon to hear, "Well I never thought it would be like THIS!"

Converts are really made one at a time, and almost alwyas one-on-one, just like believers are made, usually. Never be afraid or offended by erroneous and irrational sentiments. Overcome them. That's the only way these things will ever change. So many are so "urbanized" today, and PC is so prevalent and so tenaciously and forcefully pushed onto so many, that we have a rather large challenge before us, and probably always have. Let's get busy rather than merely being "offended" by such sentiments. In particular, let women know that if they want to learn to defend themselves, you're willing to show them how, and let them make up their own minds. Who else CAN make up their minds for them? Just be friendly and low key (they often key off your attitude and demeanor much more than what you say), and you may well get yourself a big surprise. Never be intimidated by a liberal attitude. It's all made of thin air anyway, so there's nothing there TO be concerned about. Your only task is to find out what will get them out to see for themselves, and if you can get two or more our there in a group, you're really giving yourself a chance to make a big difference.

It's the only way we'll ever really have to deal with all this mis/disinformation, really. We just need to take the bulls by the horns, and not wait for someone else to do it FOR us. That last is far too much the "modern ethic" of our day now, but that has, and will NEVER, work. Somewhere I once read of someone who said, "I cried out for help, but when I looked around, there was noone to help but ME!" Our forefathers did what THEY needed to. That will always be where our salvation comes from. NOT from "the other guy."