A couple of S&W Model 64 forcing cones

[SP5315]

Swapping out barrels on a pair of S&W Model 64-6's. I've heard that running the light weight 357 magnum loads were hard on the K frame forcing cones. It looks like it's not much better running the light weight 38 spl +P's. These were a couple of police trade ins that have seen plenty of range time with +P ammunition. Both forcing cones have quite a bit of erosion, not to mention both being cracked.

I have a few high round count Model 19's 64's & 66's that have nowhere near the ware these two revolvers show. But then again I stick with 158 grain bullets and don't try to hot rod them.

192983 192984 192985 192986 192987

[tazman]

That's sad to see a couple of guns in that condition.

[Bookworm]

When I want to hotrod a 38Spl, I go to 357 Mag. I've never understood trying to make a cartridge do something it wasn't designed to do.

[FergusonTO35]

Yup. Let the .38 shoot heavy lead slugs like God intended. J-words and/or light bullets at high pressure will do you no favors in this cartridge.

[Jniedbalski]

What causes this in the model 64 S&W k frame guns that usually don't happen in other models and 357 guns? Or is it just from a lot of use

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Someone was using very hot loads with light bullets. None of my K frames are cracked or have erosion like that.


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[2ndAmendmentNut]

What causes this in the model 64 S&W k frame guns that usually don't happen in other models and 357 guns? Or is it just from a lot of use

K frame S&W revolvers have a flat portion on the bottom of the barrel. While this is a weaker spot for 38 and 357 cal guns the strength is sufficient for normal 38 and 357 loads. Supposedly most guns that crack are a combination of heavy leading in the forcing cone along with light 125gr (or lighter) jacketed bullets pushed by over max loads of ball powder.

The K frame 357s were designed as a carry gun to be practiced with 38s and occasionally familiarized with 357s.

When 110gr and 125gr 357mag loads became popular the K frame developed a reputation as weak when compared to the Ruger Six line and various medium framed Colts. S&Ws answer was the L frame for those that felt the need to shoot a steady diet of 357mags.

The S&W K frame model 19s are easily my favorite revolvers ever produced.
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[35remington]

Agree that standard pressure lead bullet 38s are the friend of your forcing cone. I have never seen where hot jacketed loads are a good idea for lots of shooting in either a financial sense or a gun longevity sense.

[Walkingwolf]

Any gun can wear out, even with standard factory ammunition. I would bet the dept that owned these guns had a very active training schedule. If it had been my dept they would have been shot every month 68 rounds. 50 standard for qualification, 18 duty rounds for ammo rotation and to be accustomed to shooting them. That is not much, but who knows how long the gun was in use.

I knew of a detective 40 years ago that carried factory 38/44 in his model 36, he qualified with standard factory though. He did use fire his gun at least once with the 38/44 in a hospital to defend a nurse. There was no apparent damage to the gun, but if done monthly I imagine the gun would have come apart.

I carry HOT ammo in well built 38 spls, I repeat I carry, not regularly shoot them. Any revolver subjected to hot ammo in a constant basis will have damage. Elmer Kieth blew up several guns, shoot a 357 enough times with 357 and sooner or later the forcing cone is going to give out, even on a tank of a gun.

I would not buy a police revolver unseen because one does not know how a gun is cared for. Not cleaning a gun, and lead build up can also cause the same damage. Glock kabooms have been blamed on leading of the barrels, yet owners who shoot cast, and regularly clean have not had problems. Cops generally are not as finicky about their firearm as gun people, they shoot and if not forced to clean the gun probably never gets cleaned. I also see no reason for constant shooting any gun with hot ammo for training, rotation of duty ammo is enough.

I do believe that excessive exposed forcing cone is part of the problem. Probably why most Ruger revolvers the cylinder are a tight fit to the frame. I will never shoot even warm ammo through my 625 for that reason. Smith probably should have used a magnum length cylinder reamed to 38 spl in the 64 like Ruger did.

I am considering buying a new model 64, or 10 for the wife. I can order a police trade in for half the price, but just don't know well they would have been cared for.

[Char-Gar]

Police guns are like Police cars. They are run hard and worn out in the process. In law enforcement both are disposable and replaceable. If we buy either, be prepared to do extensive repair to bring them back to proper function.

[Walkingwolf]

Police guns are like Police cars. They are run hard and worn out in the process. In law enforcement both are disposable and replaceable. If we buy either, be prepared to do extensive repair to bring them back to proper function.

Depends on the dept. Some dept cars are well taken care of, oil changed when it is supposed to be. When something breaks it is repaired properly. Some goes for handguns, probably most have rarely been fired, but also most probably are not cleaned. It is not as much a problem for a tupperware gun, except for the barrel.

I have owned a couple police trade in cars, both good cars. The problem was they sucked gas, but they were both ISP cruisers before the changes in fuel standards.

[SP5315]

Yup. Let the .38 shoot heavy lead slugs like God intended. J-words and/or light bullets at high pressure will do you no favors in this cartridge.


Agree that standard pressure lead bullet 38s are the friend of your forcing cone. I have never seen where hot jacketed loads are a good idea for lots of shooting in either a financial sense or a gun longevity sense.

I'm in 100% agreement with both statements. I have a Model 19, made in 1977 with about 30,000 rounds of 158gr bullets in both jacketed and lead through it with no signs of wear like in these model 64's I will also add that the top straps of these 64's do show some flame cutting that I would say looks comparable to the flame cutting seen with a steady diet of full house 357 loads.


Any gun can wear out, even with standard factory ammunition. I would bet the dept that owned these guns had a very active training schedule. If it had been my dept they would have been shot every month 68 rounds. 50 standard for qualification, 18 duty rounds for ammo rotation and to be accustomed to shooting them. That is not much, but who knows how long the gun was in use.

These were about 15 years old when retired.


Both of these were sold with the cracked forcing cones disclosed, so at $50 bucks a pop I bought them for parts guns. This was the first time I've seen this kind of wear in a .38

[SP5315]

Police guns are like Police cars. They are run hard and worn out in the process. In law enforcement both are disposable and replaceable. If we buy either, be prepared to do extensive repair to bring them back to proper function.

Sometimes, but not always. I picked up 20 Model 64's from one agency in Virginia a few years back, and 15 of them had never been used. They had sat in the armory rack for so long that the factory grease had turned rock hard and you couldn't even cock them. Granted there are not many sold like this, but every now and then you get lucky.

[gwpercle]

WOW ! I wasn't expecting that from 38 Special even +P+!
I took a look at my model 64 and it does not look like that. The B.R.P.D. had not gone to using those loads when they traded in the 64's for new 357 magnums (model 66's I think), thank goodness! I believe they were still using 158 grain lead RN then. No damage observed .
Thanks for the heads up , I know now what to look for.
Gary

[John Allen]

It sucks to see a good barrel ruined. I have a couple of trade ins I picked up and was worried about this myself but got lucky.

[FergusonTO35]

I got an absolute cherry of a 10-10 for $300.00 from a local shop last summer. It was part of a batch which somehow escaped from the Democratic People's Republic of California. These were ex-prison system guns with "CDC" stamped on the frame. Mine doesn't even have a real turn line on the cylinder and I can't tell that it was ever carried in a holster. Prison guns tend to spend most of their time in an armory or guard shack and so don't get as much rough and tumble as cop guns.

[35remington]

I have little use for jacketed bullets in 38's. If a RN, SWC or WC can't do it, (or a cast HP for some) it can't be done with a 38 period. Cannot think of exceptions.

[Wayne Dobbs]

K frame S&W revolvers have a flat portion on the bottom of the barrel. While this is a weaker spot for 38 and 357 cal guns the strength is sufficient for normal 38 and 357 loads. Supposedly most guns that crack are a combination of heavy leading in the forcing cone along with light 125gr (or lighter) jacketed bullets pushed by over max loads of ball powder.

The K frame 357s were designed as a carry gun to be practiced with 38s and occasionally familiarized with 357s.

When 110gr and 125gr 357mag loads became popular the K frame developed a reputation as weak when compared to the Ruger Six line and various medium framed Colts. S&Ws answer was the L frame for those that felt the need to shoot a steady diet of 357mags.

The S&W K frame model 19s are easily my favorite revolvers ever produced.
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I'm a lover of 4" Model 19s. Who made those beautiful grips?

[km101]

My LGS sometimes gets trade-ins from an armored car service. They are S&W Model 64's and are normally 4" barrels, but occasionally a few 2 1/2". Some are DAO and have the factory bobbed hammer. Most have normal holster wear but some have almost no wear at all. These guns are tight and don't appear to have been shot much. Accuracy at 25yds is on par with my other K frame guns. Not the normal police dept. trade-ins. So there are good trade-ins out there

I have been a good customer in the past so she calls me when she gets some in and I am one of the first to pick through them. The best part is that she sells them for $200 for the 4" and $250 for the 2 1/2". So far I have managed to hold myself down to only four. ��

[FergusonTO35]

Good thing I don't live near that shop or I would go broke!

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I'm a lover of 4" Model 19s. Who made those beautiful grips?

They are made by Craig Spegel. He is an artist with wood.
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[FergusonTO35]

I have little use for jacketed bullets in 38's. If a RN, SWC or WC can't do it, (or a cast HP for some) it can't be done with a 38 period. Cannot think of exceptions.

This, 100%. It cracks me up to see how ammo companies keep trying to give cartridges comic book superpowers. I once talked to a long time cop from Northern Illinois, his career spanned from the 60's well into the 90's. He said the most effective handgun round he ever saw was the .38 +P 158 grain LSWCHP. He had the privilege of sitting in on the autopsy of a few perps whose career was cut short by that round and said the effect was pretty devastating. "One per customer is all you need!" he quipped.

[Walkingwolf]

I hated being assigned to autopsies.

[Petrol & Powder]

This, 100%. It cracks me up to see how ammo companies keep trying to give cartridges comic book superpowers. I once talked to a long time cop from Northern Illinois, his career spanned from the 60's well into the 90's. He said the most effective handgun round he ever saw was the .38 +P 158 grain LSWCHP. He had the privilege of sitting in on the autopsy of a few perps whose career was cut short by that round and said the effect was pretty devastating. "One per customer is all you need!" he quipped.

The +P 158grain LSWCHP is one of the most underrated self-defense cartridges out there. That load performs far better than a lot of folks are willing to believe. I've seen a lot of gun store commandos scoff at that round because it looks old fashioned and dismiss it because "it's just a 38 Special".
A LOT of police officers got to live longer because of that round and a LOT of criminals ended up in the morgue because of that round.

Getting back to the OP, it's a shame that those model 64 barrels were ruined but at least the guns could be re-barreled. I've always had some type of S&W 38 Special K-frame in the safe and I always will. They're great guns and I wish people wouldn't abuse them.

[SP5315]

Well the first of the two is on its way to rehabilitation. Installed a very serviceable used barrel. Turned the barrel for proper cylinder gap, headspace is spot on. Then it took a trip through the glass bead blaster. After ultrasonic cleaning it'll be ready for reassembly and further safety checks. The satin finish does a great job of getting rid of all the hairline scratches and makes it look pretty good again.
193100

[Petrol & Powder]

Looking Good!
That's a fairly recent production frame, Someone must have abused the gun to damage that barrel but I think there's a lot of life left in that gun. Thanks for sharing.

[Outpost75]

Flat machined on the barrel extension at 6:00 reduces heat capacity through the thinner section and causes ths crack through heat stress. L-frame had increased charge hole spacing so no clearance cut was needex to clear the gas shield on ths cylinder.

[FergusonTO35]

Love those K frames. Smith needs to bring out an Airweight line with a reasonable price tag. The 637 sells for $350.00 here and my local guy can't keep them in stock. Surely they could do the same thing with 64 and keep the real world price under $500.00.

[km101]

2ndAmmendmentnut, where is Craig Spegel and how can I get in touch with him?

Thanks

[2ndAmendmentNut]

2ndAmmendmentnut, where is Craig Spegel and how can I get in touch with him?

Thanks

http://craigspegel.com

Spegel's grips are of the highest quality and the standard grade woods are not much more than Hogue or other factory available grips. The draw back is it can take a while for your name to come up on the list. Give Mr. Spegel a call, he might have what you need available, if not have your name put down on his calling list. Well worth the wait and money.


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