Is a hollow point cast bullet necessary?

[missionary5155]

What is your idea ? I have used cast bullets for 30 years. I have cast Pure Lead to Water Dropped Linetype. As long as I match velocity to hardness I can have pancake flat expansion to no expansion.... So what do you think ? What are your ideas ? :castmine:

[DLCTEX]

Depends on whether it's for rifle or pistol, high or low velocity, large or small caliber, and what you personally expect from the boolit. I have shot prarie dogs with 22 ca. WDWW 46 gr. boolits that mushroom and don't always penetrate, but every one was DRT as long as the hit was in the vitals. I have shot deer with 45 cal. WW 200 gr. SWC that gave complete penetration on 200 lb. class deer, also DRT. Would a holllow point in either have done any better? I don't think so, but it is interesting enough that I want to find out. So far the hollow point molds have been more expensive to the point that I have elected to not buy. I may have toinvest in a hollowpointing tool, such as Forsters, or modify one of my molds . The quest is what keeps this game interesting. DALE

[grumpy one]

A hollow point is used as a way to get more, and more rapid, expansion than the bullet design and metallurgy would otherwise have provided. If you can get enough expansion without a hollow point, don't use one. However if the amount of hardness you need to get the bullet to shoot accurately does not permit the amount of expansion you want, you can tilt the relationship by hollow-pointing the bullet: same hardness therefore same accuracy potential, but more expansion.

Of course a hollow point combined with a bullet metallurgy that lacks toughness, will simply give you fragmentation. Don't use any more hardness than you need, and use the minimum feasible amount of alloying of the lead to get the ductility and toughness that you need. It isn't as complicated as it sounds.

[missionary5155]

Thanks Dale... The Forster tool would make alot of sence rather than getting Just a Hollow point Mold at the Facanating prices they are selling for.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

I used to cast some hollow point bullets, but I never was too happy doing it for several reasons. First of all, my moulds were all single cavity moulds, and I never liked the idea of doing one bullet at a time, and I never seemed to get as good a quality bullet as I did with regular moulds. Then there is the whole extra effort of inserting and removing the the thing that makes the hollow point. I am not saying that no one should cast hollow points; I am just saying that it was more of a problem to me than I was willing to tolerate. I am sure there are lots of folks who don't mind doing it at all.

If one considers casting hollow points to be a problem as I do, I think Dale has made a very good suggestion - using a tool to make hollow points on bullets that have already been cast. I never tried any of these tools, but I think it ought to be something that should be easily done and produce good results.

And I wholeheartedly agree with Dale's statement, "The quest is what keeps this game interesting."

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[AnthonyB]

All, a HP is never of any benefit in any design. They are slower to cast, a real PITA to deal with, and other bullets will far outperfrom them. So, anyone with HP mould should sell it to me.
I'll be standing by for the sale offers.
Tony

[Ricochet]

Some have reported group sizes shrinking with hollowpointing.

[TCLouis]

one article on HP cast. Look for his write up over at the LASC (??) site.

[Bret4207]

As Ricochet said, sometimes the HP will change the COG in the boolit to a better place and improve accuracy. I've often wondered if that wouldn't help some of the spitzer desings with a rep for so-so accuracy.

[Dale53]

This is personal opinion, only. However, it is based on a bit of experience doing "autopsies" on a considerable number of large deer and black bear.

Handguns (at least up to and including the .44 magnum level) have limited power. Hollowpointing reduces penetration with the power that we have to work with. .44-.45 Keith bullets will typically give a 3/4" hole clear through a deer (whatever the angle regardless of what gets in its way) and is TOTALLY reliable in its action. I have had failures with jacketed hollow points at high velocity. I have seen NO failures with a good Keith or RF design with a good, wide meplat (assuming a good hit).

In my humble opinion, game deserves as reliable action as we can give along with as good a hit as we can deliver (AND it's up to us to practice until we can give this "good hit" ON DEMAND). Giving away penetration to get 'questionable" results does not "spin my propeller".

But that's just me...

Dale53

[35remington]

After being sent some hollowpoints, and being inspired to mess around with them myself, I feel that hollowpoints work just fine in certain applications, like small game.

Often these critters are small and don't open up a regular bullet very much, and a hollowpoint will do so at velocities even a pure lead bullet won't expand - at least, not very much. In considerable work now with solid point pure lead bullets in .25-20 and some use on small game, a 1000 fps impact with the pure lead bullet will bump the nose up some, turning the flat point into a larger flat point, depending upon size. "Pancake" expansion really only happens in resistant test media even with soft bullets of solid point construction. Such expansion doesn't happen in game at the velocities possible with soft bullets.

A hollow point will actually open up. So, effect with marginal velocities is somewhat enhanced.

Harder alloys blow the nose off the bullet and the remainder penetrates like a wadcutter. Not a bad effect, really, unless you're the target.

[cbrick]

one article on HP cast. Look for his write up over at the LASC (??) site.

Glen has several articles on HP. Glen's articles are on several sites around the internet but the largest collection of his articles in one place is at the LASC site here: The Articles of Glen E. Fryxell (http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm)

I agree with 35remington. I use very soft lead HP's at low velocity (800-850 fps) in my 1911 45 ACP as a defense round. The soft alloy (6-10 BHN) expands well at this velocity and doesn't over penetrate. Keep in mind that I live in the socialist state of Kalifornia and I'm in enough trouble shooting someone that broke into my home that has far more rights than I do so I don't need to shoot through a wall and shoot the neighbor also.

Rick

[GLL]

Although I am not a hunter I do enjoy eliminating pesky rodents at 100 yards.

Buckshot has made that much more interesting by producing a number of HP conversions on several of my old moulds. Most are single cavity. I make HPs because it is just plain fun. It is indeed a slow process but I rarely cast up more than a hundred at a time anyway. It takes less than an hour.

Jerry

Lyman 358627HP for .357Maximum
http://www.fototime.com/764FE0DF38E319D/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/4D8C83F4EDBB0E5/standard.jpg

[beagle]

I guess most of you know my feeling on HPs. Myself and Crazy Mark have touted them for years. I currently cast about 60 different designs and 99% of my loading is with HPs.

After much practice I am able to sit down and cast sufficient HPs for my needs and don't consider it a hassle.

I have achieved better accuracy with HP'd versus solid designs in all but two of my HP conversions.

The majority of my shooting is plinking, paper and smaller varmints.

Using a HP design gives me better performance on this type targer at what are considerd marginal velocities as I'm no speed demon. Many thousands per year go downrange out of my Marlin .357 Mag carbine, my M-1 Carbine, .22 Hornet, .223 and .222 as well as my .25-20. In these applications on small game, HP designs are great.

But, what I use is not for everyone so I'll let you form your own opinions. I know I like em' and they're worth every bit of the effort./beagle

[AnthonyB]

Beagle, please be quiet; I'm trying to buy some moulds here!
Tony

[beagle]

I knew you were trying to score....Sorry, had to put my $.02 in....../beagle

[Glen]

I'm with beagle on this one -- I like HP cast bullets (but I suspect that most of you already knew that). I am primarily a handgun hunter, and in my experience a HP helps to put down small and medium sized game animals more quickly. I am by no means denigrating the solids (e.g. the Keith SWCs and RN-FPs), quite the contrary, I am a big fan of those bullets as well and use them when the situation warrants it. But the bottom line is a typical sized deer doesn't require a 300 grain solid at 1500 fps for complete penetration! A cast HP makes a wider wound channel, and tends to put them down very quickly (and yes, they do exit). It all comes down to personal preferences and using what makes the hunt most satisfying for you. I will continue to use both, and for critters up to about 300-400lbs in size, that means it will probably be a cast HP.

PS -- I like what Dale had to say on this subject....

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

As I said earlier, I was sure there would be lots of folks who would swear by the casting of hollow points even though I consider it too much trouble for my tolerance. It is good to hear from all those folks who go the extra mile with holllow points, and it hearkens back to Dale's statement that "The quest is what keeps this game interesting."

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[cbrick]

"The quest is what keeps this game interesting."

That's it for me. It was Glen's writing that prompted me to get my first HP mould and I've done quite a bunch of testing with it and bought more HP moulds since. Curious minds need to know how, why, what if.

Rick

[Handgunr]

I've got several HP moulds that I've purchased and used over the years, including some that were discontinued long ago. The Lyman #358156 was one that I used in solid form for a long, long time, and I knew that they produced it long ago in HP form. One of the few times that I used EBay to find one, I ended up paying $80 to gladly get it.

Almost all of my favorite moulds, or at least the standards, have an accompanying HP versions to go along with it. My Lyman #429421 plainbase, and the Lyman #429244 Thompson style w/gascheck, which I use quite often, I also use in HP form. I have the #215 as well in a lighter bullet, but I haven't used this lighter round much at all, and I don't know if they ever made it in HP form anyway. I also have the .429 Lyman Devastator mould that Glen Fryxell did part of his article on, and although it's a little learning curve to cast them if you're use to casting with standard moulds, they are exactly as they claim....devastating. Glen was "spot on" in his assessment of them.

I've been using these cast HP bullets for a long, long time, and to be honest, I've noticed a big difference in hunting performance by using them. In a jacketed bullet with a pure lead core, between the two metals (lead & jacket material) they perform together as intended very well. When using lead alone, being a singular material, hardness of varying BHN's can be utilized to vary the expansion rate, providing the hardness levels shoot well in your particular gun.
Most of my HP hunting bullets wear a gascheck, are of 14-15BHN and are pushed at 1400+fps. I use WW's most often, as it is one of the easiest, or most common alloy's to obtain. What I see in many of my experiments/or experiences with them (HP's), whatever the hardness of an alloy up to a given point, in comparison, the HP seems to give the expansion edge over the flatnosed round.
If I was going to use an alloy that was very hard, similar to lino, it'd more than likely be utilized in an area other than hunting, or where heavy penetration was needed in a particular hunting application.
The best part of casting your own, and using HP's in particular, you can alter the expansion characteristics of the bullet by varying the hardness of the alloy to maybe get the best of both worlds.

PS - Hey Rick.......!


Take care,
Bob

[1Shirt]

Like Beagle says, and he has probably forgot more about HP cast boolits than any of us will ever know. On top of that he is an old soldier who cuts to the chase. Because of him I am now convinced that the Ideal 311413HP'd is one of the most accurate blts in most of my 30 cals. Add to that the fact that Buckshot does a whale of a job in converting to HP and there are real winners out there folks.
I also tend to agree that with SP blts, there is a tendancy for max stablization. As to slow and PIA factors in casting, well, sure is nice to be a codger and not be that worried about time. It's sort of an earned thing that ya get if you outlive a lot of the SOB's in life.
:coffee::coffee:
On top of that, ya just gotta like the fact that HP's loaded just plain look cool!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[runfiveslittlegirl]

for small game and target aplications h/pointing has it's merits.
for deer sized animals the hpt's have a place. but two holes are better than one.
and if the h/p stops that it isn't working.
if i am lucky i get 1 shot at a deer per year.
i'll keep the flat meplat and no h'p thanks..
for small game h'p is fine but i like a fairly brittle alloy, splodes on impact.
this has to do with where i hunt rock chucks,fox ,etc. as there are homes in the vicinity.

[cbrick]

The best part of casting your own, and using HP's in particular, you can alter the expansion characteristics of the bullet by varying the hardness of the alloy to maybe get the best of both worlds. PS - Hey Rick.......!

Take care,
Bob

Hi Bob, bout time we saw you back here in the world of the silver stream. Hope to see you here more often sharing your many years of casting & testing experiemces.

One part of casting HP's you skipped in your post . . . Varying the velocity of a given load to match the alloy composition and/or BHN for expansion and/or penetration.

That's how I arrived at the 800-850 fps 1911 45 ACP defense load. Much past 850 fps and the soft alloy (5-10 BHN) about disinegrates fired into water (water is a very hard medium). The same alloy kept below 850 fps and the boolit stays together and expansion is remarkable even in water.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1661-9.jpg

Rick

[MtGun44]

I like what Dawn said. Smart girl. I also don't get many shots at
deer each season (99% my own fault due to not being in the woods enough)
and will prolly stick to my Keiths in .44 mag when handgunning deer.

With more velocity available, say a .30-30, I would be more inclined to try
a hp or possibly the two alloy softpoint style.

Good, intelligent, friendly discussion folks. This is one of the reasons I love
this board.

Bill

[Handgunr]

runsfives,

Yes, I can understand the "2 holes" theory, and it's a good point. The question is what kind of terminal damage has that round caused when passing throught he animal. What really kills an animal is the level of trauma caused by a round passing through, and the resulting blood loss because of it. The more damage done to the internals, the more, or quicker the blood loss, and in effect, a quicker death.

Hydrostatic shock is another theory involving the pressure/velocity of the round in relation to it's frontal diameter, and the bodily fluid's reaction to it. A shockwave created by a hollowpoint is dimensionally different in comparison to a flatnosed bullet. Both cause one obviously, but the wider shockwave caused by the HP transmit's it's energy over a wider area. The downside to using such a design is that, yes, penetration is, or "can be" limited. The pro's of such a design are one's that cause more trumatic shock to connecting tissues, or to the mass of tissue that it's passing through due to it's vastly increased diameter.

In other words, it dumps it's energy quicker and in a more traumatic fashion, than does a flatnosed round. I worked with ballistic gel over the years that I worked in law enforcement, and profile views of a bullets path through it caused me to change my ideas long ago. Bullet frontal diameter, (obviously based on it's weight, velocity & design somewhat) is what determines it's level of initial energy transference when it impacts a given animal. All else being equal (bullet style, one long & thin, and one short & fat), a thinner diameter projectile will penetrate deeper. When you toss two bullets of the same diameter together, but one being a HP and the other being a flatnose, even though the diameters initially are the same, based on their design differences, that soon changes once the expansion starts.

When thinking of the differences in relation to cast bullets, it's a little different. HP's still expand different, or faster, than flatnosed bullets, but the alloy hardness plays a bigger part in the equasion........as does the velocity like Rick mentioned.
For instance, as you mentioned about the "2 holes" theory.......yes, and many have used the thought that it's better to bleed out through 2 holes than one. Yes and no.

For the purpose of tracking, I guess that it might be an aid, but to be honest, 90% of all the deer I've ever shot with cast bullets have had exits....and bigger exits at that. But let's say that the HP didn't exit for the sake of argument, but sustained a much greater level of internal damage because of it. Is that deer going to bleed less, no......if anything, more so......., but internally, maybe. The difference might be that visible tracking blood might show as less, maybe, but that the internal damage from that HP more than likely will create a much quicker death, and possibly a far shorter tracking job, if need be. Two schools of thought on that subject.

I've shot several deer from "facing to me", straight on, body length shots. A couple were slightly angled, but for the most part, just plain head on. Doesn't happen often, but I've had that cast HP go down through the deer (with what I call) "pinballing" and end up in the back flank fully expanded. The destruction that that bullet caused had to be seen to be believed...period. The deer dropped right on the spot without a kick. On slightly angled, more broadside shots, I don't remember ever not having a pass through with HP's. even when striking shoulders, ribs, etc.
That's with cast HP's exclusively.

Regarding the use of flatnosed or HP's personally, I'm actually the opposite of you. I use flatnosed bullets mainly for practice in certain cases (easier to cast in bulk), and for small game where I don't need or want a HP, like rabbits for instance, or possibly for a magnum load for more dangerous game where more penetration that a harder HP can't produce.

Bottom line is whatever works for you, obviously.


Rick............

Thanks for the kind welcome...............

Yes, I forgot to mention one very important part of the equasion when using them..........velocity....

Take care bud,
Bob

[cbrick]

As a comparison in penetration between HP's and SWC's this HP at 800 fps no doubt had all of it's expansion at or very near the surface (again, water is a very hard medium) and then simply sank to the bottom of the 3 foot deep drum.

This is the Lyman Devastator 200 gr HP.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1661-9.jpg

On the other hand, the below SAECO #068 200 gr SWC also fired at 800 fps into the same 3 feet of water penetrated the water and struck steel plates on the bottom of the drum with enough remaining velocity/energy to do this.

The HP was 6 BHN stick-on WW+ 3% tin. The SWC was clip-on WW+ 3% tin @ 11 BHN.

http://www.lasc.us/Selection-98.jpg http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1500-3.jpg

An interesting side note, The HP splashed water and my Levi's got wet (I was standing above a 55 gal. drum and fired straight down into the water). The SWC literally emptied 1/3 of the water from the drum on the first shot soaking me from head to toe. The drum had to be re-filled to continue testing. The violence and energy of the SWC in water was astonishing.

Rick

[missionary5155]

Thank you to EVERYONE that has responded up to here ! Mnetioned were several aspects of Cast Hollow Points I never thought of... THANKS !!!

[waksupi]

For a defensive bullet, in a populated area, I MIGHT use a hollowpoint. For big game, I like the solid, as it has performed well for me in the 6.5X55, .308, 7.5X55, .44 mag, .358 Win, .45-70, and probably a couple others I don't recall right off. All give a very good wound channel with solids. And as Veral said, once you get a wound channel of over about 1.5", the killing effect goes down, as the body will allow a smaller diameter wound to bleed freely to clean itself, while a larger trauma area causes the nerves and tissue to contract, slowing the bleeding. I believe Fackler also references this point.

[AnthonyB]

All:
Doesn't anyone have any HP molds they want to sell me yet?
I fall into the Beagle camp on this one. The HPs seem to be more accurate (can't prove this scientifically, but all my smallest groups are with HPs) and my testing in wet newspaper has shown excellent results from boolits ranging from the 358156HP through the Lyman 45 Devastator. The only deer I have managed to shoot with a cast boolit was definitely impressed with the custom RCBS 45-405 HP.
Tony

[Handgunr]

Like I said before, it's whatever works for you.......

Like the old song goes.......;"If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands"..........[smilie=w:

I used both varieties in many instances on deer sized game and smaller over a period of probably 30 + years, and freely admitting that it's been while using handguns 99% of the time. Under the differing circumstances offered at times, and considering such, I'll definitely use a cast HP of mid teens BHN numbers as a first choice on most forms of game.

Like Rick stated regarding perceived energy expended, with most of my experiences in the field, the majority of the time they drop right on the spot or within a few feet, which pretty much corresponds with his observations.

Take care,
Bob

[runfiverun]

alot of the discussion boils down to velocity and boolit design.
when i hear the words "energy dump" i cringe internally.
if i could get a boolit to enter 6" expand and exit i would be the biggest proponent of the h-points for hunting.
i am a proponent of them for home defense.

10-12" of penetration is plenty for a person
unless you need to shoot through their arms then it is 20" or more.

[MakeMineA10mm]

when i hear the words "energy dump" i cringe internally.


I'm with you runfiverun. IF (and, that's a BIG "IF") there is energy dumped in the target medium, it is a scientific fact (thanks to Newton) that it would have minimal effect on the target. (The old demonstration that if a bullet fired from a gun has enough energy to knock down the target person, it would also knock down the person shooting the gun... I know we're not talking THAT much energy, but if the energy level is that small, where's the benefit of dumping it into the target's body?)

I say all this with a background in seeing dead bodies (often from gunshot wounds). IMO, energy / energy-dump is a myth foisted upon the masses by the condom-bullet sellers. The real killing effect of a bullet (condom or naked) is (in order of importance) 1. what it hits inside the target, 2. how the target reacts to being hit, 3. how fast it makes blood come out of the target.

What does that mean to this discussion about HPs? Well, it means that with pistols at short range, a hollow point or lack thereof, really only effects the third (least) important factor. This doesn't mean they are not worth it, just that each of us must decide how much that is worth to us in a defensive shooting situation.

[45r]

I like anything 45 and don't need a HP.They might kill em faster,but dead is dead.I aim and hit the high shoulder area most of the time and they drop DRT.If they're quartered away and I have to aim for the far shoulder a long 45 cal hole through em puts them down quick also.I'd use a hollow pointer to make some expanding boolits for hunting but never felt a need when a 280 to 315 grain 45 boolit works plenty well enough.

[Handgunr]

I'm with you runfiverun. IF (and, that's a BIG "IF") there is energy dumped in the target medium, it is a scientific fact (thanks to Newton) that it would have minimal effect on the target. (The old demonstration that if a bullet fired from a gun has enough energy to knock down the target person, it would also knock down the person shooting the gun... I know we're not talking THAT much energy, but if the energy level is that small, where's the benefit of dumping it into the target's body?)

I say all this with a background in seeing dead bodies (often from gunshot wounds). IMO, energy / energy-dump is a myth foisted upon the masses by the condom-bullet sellers. The real killing effect of a bullet (condom or naked) is (in order of importance) 1. what it hits inside the target, 2. how the target reacts to being hit, 3. how fast it makes blood come out of the target.

What does that mean to this discussion about HPs? Well, it means that with pistols at short range, a hollow point or lack thereof, really only effects the third (least) important factor. This doesn't mean they are not worth it, just that each of us must decide how much that is worth to us in a defensive shooting situation.

Makemine,

I respect your opinion as with fiverunfive's. Like I said, you decide what works for you and use it. Hopefully with continued satisfying result.

What I'm saying is not based on opinion at all.
Yes, I've been casting since I was a young kid and I learned plenty over the years, but because of that past, it netted me a job in law enforcement, centered in the firearms field. I'm retired now after a good long period of public service, and not to blow my own horn, but during that time I was one of law enforcement's head firearms instructors for a large portion of western NY. I trained many hundreds of police over a long period of probably 75% of the 20 yrs. I was in service.
A young driver lost control of his car one morning and brought an early retirement for me, but of those I trained, ballistics was a large portion of the curriculum. I was certified in both firearms instructor schools, and sniper/observer schools through the FBI, Marine & Army sniper teams & instructors. A very large portion of the study included ballistics as well as post mortem effects.

Thanks to having the first patrol car with an airbag in it, I'm still around, but the injuries I sustained there ultimately resulted in a reluctant early exit for me. Otherwise, I'd surely still be there, or with the US Marshalls in the Air Marshall's program.

Regarding ammunition choices, and the testing I mentioned earlier. I was ordered by the Sheriff of our county to do evaluation testing on various brands of commercial ammunition for duty use for not only our officers, but in effect, what would more than likely result in a county wide standard (meaning PD's as well), once it was completed.

NYSP Sgt. Jeff Carmichael, who is now in charge of the NY State Police firearms training unit, back when we did the testing and evaluation for duty ammunition, was working with Speer on the initial stages of what would eventually become the Gold Dot "Lawman" ammo. At the time the testing was going on, Speer hadn't as yet released ammunition for testing, but Jeff brought some experimental boxes given to him for field & range testing.

Out of all the tests we ran, ballistic gel, water, paper mediums, car doors, deer carcasses...you name it, I think we probably shot through it, we ended up settling on Winchester SilverTips at the time. We tested the few GoldDot rounds we had back then, and to be honest, the SilverTips and the GoldDots were darn close. Since the testing was regulated to "commercial ammo only" we were limited. GoldDot Lawman ammunition was released sometime in the following year, if I recall, but once we had chosen, the Sheriff wanted to stay put with what we had. I still have boxes of the initial Lawman rounds, as well as a box of the Winchester Eagle Talons we tried.

Now I realize that much of this doesn't correlate necessarily over to hunting situations in some cases, but the performance, in general, does. Of all the years I did work the road, I had many, many car/deer MVA's, cattle issues, as well as other various domestic and game animals that need to be dispatched. Even when using those Winchester SilverTips, which expand quite fast, they penetrated far deeper than you'd expect. Many times with exits.
Not to get into morbidity, but the visual result from dispatching a deer with a head shot within 10yds. using a .357 Mag 158 gr. Federal softpoint, and a 145gr. SilverTip was "vastly" different. The impact with the Federal was usually as expected, but the same shot using the SilverTip, under the same conditions, would eject the eyes from their sockets, and totally jelling the whole skull.
If you were present, you would've been amazed at the energy transmitted.

In relation to the "energy dump" issues, and what was brought up regarding Newton, the basic premise is that "for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction", and yes, if the round was powerful enough to knock the target down, the shooter, more or less would be knocked down as well. Or, if the gun and bullet weighed the same, they'd both part in opposite directions equally. Yes, that's the theory.....but, rounds do produce energy as we all know, and a good portion of that energy is transmitted on initial impact with the intended target, all depending on bullet diameter, frontal area, velocity, etc.
Makemine, I guess we disagree with the different levels of importance required when it comes to bullet performance/tissue damage. Based on the theories and evidence of incapacitation taught, more damage creates more blood loss regardless of where the wound is. Yep, it's better to hit in the vital's, but where ever the round strikes, by it's design and ballistic parameters, the more damage the better. Flesh is very, very elastic, but it has it's limits. The more energy or shock to that skin on impact, the more damage is created. This affect causes the skin to stretch beyond it's limits and it ruptures. The more powerful the round, and with the aided benefit of a HP, the wounds are visually very, very different. This correlates, or continues on into the internals as well. This was what I was referring to as hydraulic shock, or in other words mentioned, "energy dump" I guess. Not totally, but partially.

Considering cast bullets in general, and how their makeup, or construction differs from jacketed bullets, the design of flatnosed and hollowpoints still react similarly between themselves in that venue. A cast HP will perform differently than a jacketed HP, obviously, as will a cast flatnose round will from a jacketed softpoint variety. I might add that we had brought and tested home brewed loads back when we were testing commercial ammo, and a cast HP in many ways, acted much like a jacketed softpoint. The penetration was better overall, and the wound cavity in ballistics gel was only slightly larger than the softpoint jacketed round. Many times, while using HP's in hunting situations, with bullets of 14-15BHN, and which are gaschecked, I've noticed that the hollowpoint expands, washes off, and continues on as a solid anyway. The initial expansion of the bullet causes massive damage within the first 10-12 inches, but continues on afterwards.

Not to write a novel, or continue to bore many, but I really don't agree with the large wound vs. small wound theory. It's in direct contradiction to everything I've been taught or experienced over my career. I love Veral Smith and I've corresponded with him in the past over other issues. Great guy, but I can't say I agree with the theory, nor do the agencies that taught me.

Again, aside from what I've posted, I respect the views of you all, and I also respect your experiences and/or beliefs. Whatever has worked for you, keep doing it, but there is a benefit in using HP's for hunting, and not only for home, or armed protection.

Take care,
Bob

[GLynn41]

Great thread--much wisdom --I was thinking about using Buckshot--now I am sure I will-- while I do not cast hollow points-- I do make dabs =dual alloy bullets-- and then hp them -- for deer -all I have- I use a fairly heavy .41 cal bullets- with the hp soft nose bullets and they expand well --the few I have used on deer-- and as was stated on full length shots- will exit- the one I found was just a wad cutter as all the soft lead was gone-- the bullet them was an SSK?NEI 275 gr--as fired 286- this bullet will exit always except that one time at 10 paces in a ceder thickett-- the bullet was just under the skin in the hip-- it also chewed up a number of ribs in its passage-- interesting about golddots-- in playing with expansion -- a cup point was impressive-- and that is what the GD look like to me- they have a good meplat - I use them some in my 41/445 12" TC

[Ricochet]

The "if it knocks the target down, it'll knock the shooter down" theory is correct regarding MOMENTUM, which is different from energy. It's true that energy has been overhyped for decades and doesn't make up for bad bullet design, or especially for bad shot placement, but it's a mistake to think it's insignificant. If it were, the .44 Special and .44 Magnum loaded with the same bullets would have exactly the same effect.

[Old Ironsights]

...One part of casting HP's you skipped in your post . . . Varying the velocity of a given load to match the alloy composition and/or BHN for expansion and/or penetration. ...Rick

Ditto. I cast pure lead 358156 HP for use in .38/.357 catsneeze loads.

This came as a result of shooting a squirrel with a pure lead solid keith that just icepicked the poor critter and I had to go and pith it as it dragged itself across the ground.

The HPs work much better at quick kills at low velocities - at least on small game.

I wold also guess that if HPs were not a "good thing" the 457122 wouldn't be an HP-only mould.

And while hardcast C358180RF has punched through 3 deer for me, they almost completely failed to expand. The one I recovered had a frontal area of only .370 or so. I would like a little more expansion than that. But now that I have a Forster I'll see what happens - along with softening the alloy a little.

[Handgunr]

Ricochet,

Good point.......that was what I was referring to but failed to clearly state it....momentum.
Mass and velocity = momentum............p=mv...I think (if I'm remembering correctly).
Energy, I believe, is proportional........

It's been awhile........forgive me.....lol.

Ironsights.......

I cast pure lead 358156 HP

Me too......I love that mould.............one of my all time favorites..!


Take care,
Bob

[Larry Gibson]

It seems this discussion has turned to just pistol/revolver bullets. In that case I prefer a HP as they do kill deer quicker. I have observed this on quite a few deer killed as a LEO. I had the opportunity to use multiple cartridges and bullet styles. However if the HP is in a SWC of Keith or other type then if it doesn't expand then you still have all the advantages of the plain SWC. As stated "dead is dead" but if using a HP bullet you can have the best of both.

With cast bullets in rifles I definately find the HP to be the much better killer of deer. However I do not like the long HP that comes with most Lyman moulds. I prefer the HP to be not deeper than 1 caliber, 2 calibers at the most. This aids expansion but does not readily break the petals off (given an appropriately soft alloy) and provides excellent penetration (most often through and through on side shots).

I use HP moulds and also the Forster HPer. For hunting loads I do not find them bothersome at all.
Larry Gibson

[MakeMineA10mm]

Handgunr,
I respect and appreciate your experiences. It sounds to me like it is mainly from from the shooter end, and not necessarily the "shootee."

I've worked as a Coroner for 10 years now, so I see what and how has resulted in terminal, often sudden-terminal effects. That biases me as well, because I don't generally see the wounds the result in a "shootee" who lives through the experience. Then again, ER doctors have a similar but opposite bias, because they generally only see (or spend much time working on) the shootees who live. (ER doctors still see their share of DOAs and folks who die while being worked on, but they generally don't have the time or authority to go poking around to see what the cause of death was.)

So, with the weaknesses of all of our positions, we have to be careful in drawing conclusions without open-mindedly looking at data from outside our areas of specialty.

These debates about stopping-power theories can get pushed and pulled in many directions, especially on an internet message board - Seen and participated in many of them. But to reinforce my position that I weakly described above, I'll merely provide the following food for discussion:

* Rifle and most shotgun rounds are MUCH more lethal/incapacitating than pistol rounds. Rifle rounds more so at long range, shotguns more so at short range.

* When talking the pistol rounds, we have to be careful not to agree too much with any of the stopping power theories (Marshal & Sanow or Martin Fackler), because they are just that: THEORIES. None have been proven or are free of holes in them. (Couple of examples: Marshal & Sanow have calibers that are clearly weaker in every regard - diameter, expansion, energy, etc., which out-score "stronger" rounds in their shooting study. Fackler's theory cannot explain how some people die or pass out instantly from seemingly insignificant wounds.)

* What has been proven by studying shootings is that there is an unknown psychological factor that CAN cause incapacitation from an insignificant wound. Conversely, a person with an irreparable mortal wound can carry on the fight longer than they should be able to, if mentally strong. (This is why the best instructors/schools teach mindset - so that us good-guys won't let ourselves be incapacitated because we realize we've been shot.) No theory can quantify this effect to date.

* Of what factors we CAN quantify, every theory universally agrees on one thing: Shot Placement. (This is so accepted that it is obvious this will be a cornerstone of the stopping power law, whenever it is completely figured out.)

* The other factor we CAN quantify is that blood loss will eventually lead to incapacitation. BUT, this is a slow process, compared to the first two (psychological effect and shot placement). This is where a hollow point can be useful, especially if it creates a bigger drainage port at the exit end of the wound tract.


I'm not sure if either energy or momentum will be any part of the final stopping power law (if one is ever figured out), but I do know that energy of pistol rounds such as the 44 Special and 44 Magnum are so low that there IS very little difference in damage in the shootee, depending on bullet and load. If you shoot identical bullets, such as the 250gr Keith SWC, in both guns, the Special will get it going around 850fps and the Magnum will bump it up to around 1300fps. That 450fps will cause only a small difference inside the target, and that difference will be less and less as range increases. Now, with jacketed bullets, the expansion qualities of the bullets come into play, and velocity is a significant factor in expansion. Therefore, with jacketed or soft lead HP bullets, the work that can be done with the extra velocity in the 44 Magnum will create a distinctly larger/messier wound tract because of the added expansion. Still, that's not energy alone doing the work - the Energy provides the impetus for the expansion to accomplish something. It's not the other way around with the expansion providing a bigger area for the energy to work on. At least IMO.

And the one other personal opinion I will add to this is that I agree with Elmer Keith in that a wound with both an entrance and exit hole bleeds faster/better, than one with only an entrance wound. As to how that plays to this discussion? If I were using a cast HP boolit, I'd make sure that it still has the momentum and construction to completely penetrate my anticipated target, regardless of level of expansion. A hollow-point that expands so much that it inhibits complete penetration is a bullet I have no use for.

Wow, this is longer than I wanted it to be... [smilie=1:

[runfiverun]

this has to be one of the best discussions on a subject for quite some time.
instead of having a rather large opening of a boolit i would rather have a frontal distortion,
with complete penetration.
it is that strectching and eventual tearing of the offside skin that will create the
shootee's trauma.
hence the soaking up lead theory/story's.
i have seen the bulging of head shot animals that is caused by air being pushed into the cavity which is already full, i have seen this also when a pellet hits a bird in the head.
and there can't be more than 2-3 ft lbs of energy at play there.

[Handgunr]

Makemine,

Thanks bud..........several of us here probably have seen the darker side of wound ballistic's.....or better yet, the damage levels different rounds can create.

Much like my old hero Mas Ayoob, I've been called in to testify in murder trials where firearms have been used, based mainly on the workings of weapons, but also in forensics where it was hard for the pathologist to determine the outcome based on the evidence left in the body.

This reminds me of an old case...bear with me....lol

Not to get into a long story here or nothing, or, like I said, blow my own horn, (just an average schlup like anyone else).....
Back when I was working the road, I had a call one night for a shootout in the T/O Orangeville within our county. While responding, and as far as I knew, the shootout was still in progress. As we were a small county, and a fairly meager dept. of maybe 18-25 men at the time, there were 3 officer's on a shift. 1 east, 1 west, and a roving Sgt. That night, there were only two of us, and I was the supervisor (senior "lucky" man) on the shift who had to respond, especially alone.
Anyway, like I said, long story short......2 brothers were in the house with the ex-wife of another. The ex-biker husband called from Alabama to talk to his ex-wife, and the one brother (current boyfriend of the ex-wife) gave him some crap over the phone. He got mad and said he was coming up to get him....and he was true to his word. He snuck in after dark on the following evening and shot the one (boyfirend) brother, who was leaning against the sink in the kitchen through the window....he was DRT. The other brother, who was sitting in the kitchen at the table, and who had been smoking weed, was somewhat oblivious to what had just happened when he heard the pop's and saw his brother collapse on the floor. As he stood to see what was the matter, the ex-husband stepped in the front door and shot the 2nd brother straight in the forehead, where as he collasped to the floor. The weapon used was a Ruger Single Six in .22Mag......(remember that.)
The 2nd brother shot in the head survived. He regained conciousness after being shot, retrieved a shotgun and killed the ex-husband with a shotgun blast to side of his chest (talk about a strong mental state or will to survive). Unbeknownst to me, the shooting was over when I arrived, but no one (any of us responding) knew that, or whether the badguy was dead or not......when I cleared the house, it was found that he was deceased, but I promised to keep it short (or as short as possible...lol).
Anyway, the wounded brother came out with the ex-wife, when ordered to do so. Like I said, I was alone, so I had to alter normal procedures somewhat (ordering wounded people to come out). Oddly, he came out walking & talking and holding his hand to his head....fully functional.

The EMT's couldn't believe that the guy was shot in the head, was still walking & talking......and like I said, neither could I. After he had gotten to the hospital, and I was turning the scene over to CID to process, I was ordered to respond to the hospital.......in my mind thinking "what now ?"
The doctor was claiming that he was actually shot twice in the head......??? ! I saw the bullet hole when the guy lifted his hand from his forehead, I knew what gun was used (yeah, single action), and all that considered, I found it puzzling as to why the doctor was stating that....but my curiosity was killing me.

The Sheriff was there talking to the doctor and he wanted me there for consultation regarding the x-ray, from a firearms perspective. The Sheriff knew the doctor didn't know squat about guns, and since he saw two foreign bodies in the guys head, the doctor figured....2 bullets.

Like any of you, it wouldn't be that hard to figure out once you guys saw it, I'm positive. By outside appearance of the wound, which looked like a ragged figure "8".......yep, it could give the appearance of 2 holes I guess, I'll give you that. It wouldn't have been so bad, but the doctor was kind of cocky & adamant...."matter of factly" if you would. (yeah, one of those guys that irk you).

He brought me in and showed me the wound saying, "see, there, hole number 1, and hole number 2".........then he took me to the x-ray and showed me the two bullet fragments, then stood there with his arms folded waiting for my, or the Sheriff's response. (The Sheriff looked a little nervous wiating for me to say something......and I enjoyed it) The doctor didn't have the benefit of knowing what weapon was used, or that the victim had falled after the first (and only) shot. I told the doctor that it was virtually impossible to be two shots based on the gun & the circumstances. Once I filled him in that the gun had to be cocked to be fired, and that once the victim was shot and falling, for the perpetrator to recock the gun, fire again, and have the two shots create a figure eight wound hole like that....would be virtually impossible. Since we were at the x-ray, he asked, "well Mr. expert"...(yeah, I got PO'd), how do you explain the two fragments ?".........Pointing at them.......I said, "jacket......, and core !......22 Magnums come mainly jacketed "....
Now he was really frustrated and stormed into the ER waiving me in with him.....yeah, the Sheriff was following...and smiling. He leaned over the victim, and picking up the gauze, he pointed and asked, "okay Mr.expert...(getting really PO'd now) , how do you explain the shape of the wound ?".....After another look at it, it wasn't so much a figure eight, as it was more ragged on one side. I just said that since the gun was so close to the victim's head, the round going in lifted the skin and ripped a small section out........that was obvious on second look.

We left, I got a pat from the Sheriff, and the doctor was redfaced and embarassed for being such an ass.

Thanks for allowing me to relay the story........just one of many over the years, as most cops would know.

Anyway, back on topic.......the wound ballistics training that I got initially was based pathological cases through the FBI. I know some coroners attend post mortems as well, so I do know what you guys go through. Most of my training was based on some autopsy work, but mainly from those case history records that have already been determined. Many autopsies, at the time they're done, are left up to determination until the lab results have been concluded.
The Army & Marine sniper/observer teams also provided the added privilege of being able to offer military evidence regarding wound ballistics, which was very enlightening.

Since you mentioned it, regarding our old hero Elmer Keith, ironically he saw the benefit of hollowpints as well and campaigned Lyman to produce a HP version of the #429421 mould, which they did.

Check out this link by Glen Fryxell;
http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cast.htm

Regardless, I respect your opinions & views. Sounds like you've had your time in public service as well.

Take care,
Bob

[Handgunr]

runfiverun,

Good points..........

Most cast HP's will enter flesh/game, the same, or very silmilar to a flatnosed SWC. I cast & shoot both, and have shot game with both. On the other hand, jacketed HP's pushed hard will cause some massive entrance wounds. Namely, the .357 Maximum shot out of my 14" TC at 1995fps.
That gun has killed more deer than I can count, or remember, and while using the old Sierra 170gr. JHP at that speed, I don't think a rifle round could drop a deer quicker. You had to see the difference in person to believe it. Stating it here means nothing really.
It's just that those old 170gr. Sierra PowerJackets (now extinct) when pushed at those speeds, were what I called "flying grenades". The bullet had a minimum workable velocity of 800fps., and I was pushing them at 2000 more or less.

Beyond 150yds. the effect was far less, but inside of 100yds., man, like I said, you had to be there. BTW.....the .357 Max is one of my favorite calibers. I got one of the first 200 barrels that came out of TC back in 83' in that caliber, and I'll never part with it.

Regarding that "bulging" effect you notice when you shoot an animal with a high power round, or HP.......that's based on fluid (or blood) hydraulics, or the fluids reaction/result from the bullet's pressure (or energy) being transmitted. Hydraulic shock is something else.
Being that you can't compress fluids, but you can air, or gas, once the energy, or better yet, pressure from that energy is added to the equasion, it becomes explosive as hell.
Much like shooting water jugs, pop cans, etc.

.....or why CBRick got so wet.......LOL......

This effect "can be" equally as devastating while using a solid projectile as long as the velocity level or mass is present. Just take a look at the 50BMG sniper teams in Irag & Afghanistan. Those 750gr. soilds travelling at 3000fps create some devastating wounds based on those parameters alone.
HP's create this effect on a much lower level, but there is a cost, which can result in less penetration. What I've mentioned, admitting this, is that cast bullets are different in that they are of one material (mostly, omitting 2 piece bullets) when cast, making them different from JHP's, and that material, or alloy can be altered to change it's characteristics.
Velocity also considered there.........

Take care pard,
Bob

[runfiverun]

like i said boolit design and velocity.
it took me quite some time to work this out with jacketed bullets in rifles.
but i thought that i finally had a handle on it, till i shot a small buck with a bonded bullet at high velocity, at fairly close range. [mess everywhere]
elk and deer overlap a week here, i was planning a fairly long shot on an elk. and had set up for it.
long story short i went back to the medium high veocities, and c&c bullet
shot my elk, two holes ,drt elk and no mess.
next year shot a slightly larger deer, closer, with this same load and same results as elk.
hmmm. says i.....

[DLCTEX]

Regarding hydraulic shock, an unnamed relative was diving and found a section of large pipe housing a number of fish. one of which was quite large. Having already experimented with firing a 45 underwater, he surfaced and retrieved his and fired at the fish with the muzzle just in the opening. The bullet did not hit a fish, but killed all the fish in the pipe. I also witnessed a fellow shooting at a fish in a stream, missing the fish, but killing it. I once killed a bullfrog sitting in a half buried paint can from across the pond. Frog flopped out dead but unscratched. The power of hydraulics. DALE

[Handgunr]

Amen Dale........

Makes fishing with dynamite alot more appealing.......!




runfiverun,

I currently don't use cast bullets in rifles. I have in the past, and still do from time to time, but for the amount of shooting I do, and the velocities I shoot at, jacketed works best for me currently.
I'm very familiar with bonded bullets from various companies and rifle bullets in general, but are you speaking of the difference between general rifle bullets, or the difference of softpoints vs. HP's in rifles ?
..............I'm missing you and I want to make sure I'm on the same page........

Take care,
Bob

[runfiverun]

the point i was making was the correlation to boolit speed and design.
if someone shoots you with a sewing needle at 15,000 fps are you gonna drt? doubt it

but a bowling ball dropped from 3" aint gonna either.
the solution lies some where in between, doesn't matter if it is cast or jacketed.
the boolit/bullet is gonna do what it is designed to do.
as far as the h-point opening if you jack the speed too high it opens too fast [impact]
and causes shallow wounds.

the reason i like the flat nose boolits is. there is just plain old boolit flying through the air and animal.

[Old Ironsights]

the point i was making was the correlation to boolit speed and design.
if someone shoots you with a sewing needle at 15,000 fps are you gonna drt? doubt it...

I'd say that depended on the sewing needle.

A UHV fleschette will turn a body inside out. At those velocities if the fleschette didn't turn to plasma, any tissue (solid) it hit would vaporize on impact.

There's a whopping difference between 3,000fps and 15,000fps. (that's a little more than Mach 13 vs mach 2.6...)

That's why KEM rounds are so fun against Tanks...

FWIW there is a whole field of weapons development trying to make a Needle Gun work (it's a subset of EM/Gauss/Rail tech) [smilie=1:

Oh... In case you haven't heard...

In February 2008 the US Navy tested a magnetic railgun; it fired a shell at 5,600 miles (9,000 km) per hour (8,213+ fps) using 10 megajoules of energy. Its expected performance is over 13,000 miles (21,000 km) per hour muzzle velocity (19,050+fps), accurate enough to hit a 5 meter target from 200 nautical miles away while shooting at 10 shots per minute. It is expected to be ready in 2020 to 2025

BOOM. :twisted:

[runfiverun]

i have heard about the rail gun.
i have also thought the magnetic impulse thing would be a great way to stop a boolit course it would have to have a steel insert.
that would be a great way to build a boolit trap.

[Dale53]

>>>that would be a great way to build a boolit trap.<<<

Yep, it would only cost a "BAZILLION" dollars...:???:

Dale53