Case trimmer vs File Trim Die

[Bazoo]

I started with a lyman univeral case trimmer. I like it pretty good. I can see it wont be the absolute most square cutting, but its fast, and accurate enough for all of my needs. And its relatively easy to use.

As of late, i've been thinking about getting a file trim die for my 30-30. Why? I ask myself this often. Maybe, something simple about it, back to basics. I wouldnt be tied to the bench, using my lee hand press.

So is who uses file trim dies, and why do you use them? is there any advantages or disadvantages to them verses and bench mounted case trimmer?

~Bazoo

[Soundguy]

Funny you ask. The first bottleneck cartridge I loaded, and thus needed to trim was 30-30, and yeah, have a trim die for it.

Best money I ever spent was for an rcbs trim pro.

I've not used the trim die in ?? Years. ;)

[Bazoo]

Sound guy... do you have any notion to sell the trim die?

In my research, I found that some of the dies also sized, and some did not. Which version do you have?

[richhodg66]

I kind of like trim dies. No fuss, about as simple as it gets. Only ever used a .222 one, but am considering getting a few others.

[AZ Pete]

I have been hand loading since about 1964. I have one trim die, and I use it for case forming, not trimming.


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[Char-Gar]

I have file trim dies in most calibers I load for, but seldom use them. I prefer to use my Wilson lathe type trimer for absolute precision and square cut. It take no more time to use the Wilson than it does a file trim die.

IIRC the Redding dies only trim while the RCBS dies FL size as well as trim. That is what I have Redding file trim dies. If I am using a fire formed case to my chamber that I neck size only, why would I want to full length resize it.

[country gent]

It depends on the amount needed to be removed from the case, Under .015 - .020 the trimmer gets used On 357 herrets and case forming where large amounts need to be removed the trim die as a pre trim form die. I use a jewelers saw here and leave .005-.010 to remove in the trimmer. On cases where 1/8"-1/4" are being removed it speeds things up and cuts down on heavy burrs.

[EDG]

I have several dozen trim dies. I like them for case forming and sometimes they are good for resizing.

As far as I am concerned they are just a good way to ruin a file. All my trimming is done with a Forster case trimmer. I can trim almost every normal size case without buying anymore stuff with the Forster trimmer. On the other hand there are a lot of file trim dies that cost $40 to more than $100 for some of the obscure calibers.

The real reason for a file trim die is for forming cases and cutting them to length.

For example for years Norma's very expensive brass was the only game around for the many cheap 1891 Mausers. Three or 4 boxes of ammo cost as much as the rifles.
A file trim die could be used to make 7.65 Mauser brass from cheap and easy to find 30-06 and .270 Win. To protect the trim die and saber saw blade from each other I put a soft steel washer over the case neck and cut off the case with the saw. Then I trim to finished length with the Forster trimmer powered by a drill.
Forming 250 Savage cases is another favorite trim die application.

So I buy trim dies when I find them cheap and useful for forming brass. But I only used them to form and cut off cases and never use a file on them. Good files are too expensive to ruin and they can eventually chew up the trim die too.

[Wally]

I use the Lee cutter/ball grip & pilot. I also have their case spinner/3 jaw chuck. Fast & easy as I spin the case on my drill. The pilot ensures that you trim always to the correct length. I then chamfer the case mouths while the case is still mounted on the chuck. I find this faster than using a Forrester tool.

http://leeprecision.com/images/P/p-211.jpg
http://leeprecision.com/images/T/t-210.jpg
http://leeprecision.com/images/T/xctmpo8tcqX.png

[lightman]

I use the only trim die that I own about the same way Country Gent does. Its also a 357 Herrett. For routine trimming I prefer using a case trimmer. The fine shavings created by filing are harder to clean up than those from a case trimmer.

[mdi]

Only one mention of Lee's case trimming system? I simplified my reloading first with a Lee set for my bottle necked brass, and then the Lyman's E-Zee Trim, which I think is a better design than Lee's. I have a "lathe type" trimmer, but adjusting, getting square mouths, etc. isn't easy (forgot the make, it's been several years since I took it out).

[ikarus1]

I have the Lee power quick trim with requisite dies. Works well with a cheap Harbor Freight power screwdriver. Chamfers trims and deburrs. Not sure what I am missing by getting one of those bench mounted types, since I have a cheap C reloader single stage I dedicate to jobs like these

[Bent Ramrod]

I've used a few file trim dies. For reducing stretched or sawed-off case mouths to standard length, they do fine, unless you don't want to full-length size the cases. I use one of my crummier, worn Chinese files for this task. Plenty good enough for thin brass, and if I press down too hard, nothing important is damaged.

If you only neck size, or don't size at all, and have a case you want to trim to standard length, the quickest and most versatile tool by far is the Lee setup, with the shell holder in a power drill or screwdriver, or, better, the cutter and rod chucked in a drill press.

If you load for a lot of calibers, or obsolete calibers or wildcats, one of the lathe-type trimmers is the best option. I like the Forster and the Lyman, as the pilots can be accumulated cheaply, or made, and stored in a small space.

For some reason, case trimming is the one reloading-related operation that really, really bores me. The tiny variations in case length that certain trimmers allegedly cause aren't significant on my crude measuring tools, and I have never seen any effect on a target. So for me, the reason for the trimmer, whatever it is and however set up, is to get the whole miserable ordeal over with as expeditiously as possible. I use the Lyman (with a power screwdriver) 85% of the time, the Lees (on drill press) another 10%, the Forster (hand cranked) 5%, and the file dies once in a blue moon.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have several dozen trim dies. I like them for case forming and sometimes they are good for resizing.

As far as I am concerned they are just a good way to ruin a file. All my trimming is done with a Forster case trimmer. I can trim almost every normal size case without buying anymore stuff with the Forster trimmer. On the other hand there are a lot of file trim dies that cost $40 to more than $100 for some of the obscure calibers.

The real reason for a file trim die is for forming cases and cutting them to length.

For example for years Norma's very expensive brass was the only game around for the many cheap 1891 Mausers. Three or 4 boxes of ammo cost as much as the rifles.
A file trim die could be used to make 7.65 Mauser brass from cheap and easy to find 30-06 and .270 Win. To protect the trim die and saber saw blade from each other I put a soft steel washer over the case neck and cut off the case with the saw. Then I trim to finished length with the Forster trimmer powered by a drill.
Forming 250 Savage cases is another favorite trim die application.

So I buy trim dies when I find them cheap and useful for forming brass. But I only used them to form and cut off cases and never use a file on them. Good files are too expensive to ruin and they can eventually chew up the trim die too.

That about sums it up. They are only really quick and easy to use when you have a good, sharp file, and pretty soon you don't have a good, sharp file any more. I don't know about all RCBS trim dies sizing as well, but the only one I have used, 8x60R Portuguese, certainly did.

As it happens I found that .348 Winchester brass was small on diameter, and therefore better, cheaper and easier than .450 Express, although a little under length, so I ended up not having to use it for trimming. If I did use one again, it wouldn't be for curing brass lengthening in use, but for case forming from longer brass. In this case I would use a fine jeweller's saw (the sheet steel kind, not the metal-piercing fretsaw), and if it had an outward set on the teeth I would remove it with an oilstone or diamond hone.

A trim die is also good for fireforming in the die with a light charge and filler, screwed into a threaded holder. There is nowhere in the die for unburnt powder to lodge.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I use them and like them, and have one for almost every rifle caliber that I own. True, they will dull a file, but one gets a lot of cases processed before that happens. I started off with the Forrester case trimmers and soon learned that I needed one large and one small, plus a whole bunch of cutter pilots. One has to clamp the base of the case in a stepped chuck and has to get it in the right step. Then I went to the L.D. Wilson case trimmer which requires a die-type holder for each caliber to be trimmed, and I liked that one better but there's the fooling around with putting the case in and out of the die, and sometimes when turning the cutter the case spins in the die. With the file trim dies one just adjusts the die to trim to the desired length (using a new, unfired case as a pattern is a good method) and then you run the ram up, file off everything flush to the top of the die, drop the ram, remove the case and give it one light pass inside and outside the neck with the de-burring tool and you're finished. Goes pretty quickly and the results are very uniform. Last winter I processes 500+ pieces of .30-06 range pick up cases for my M1 rifles. It went quickly and the file is still working.

[mold maker]

Started with a Forester, but didn't like the collet system of shell holders. Got a Lyman with the universal chuck and have used it for decades. I did purchase the drill driven arbor shaft to aid my arthritis a few years ago.
I don't understand the problem some folks report about mouths being out of square. If you fully seat the case and have a proper pilot how can it cut out of square?

[Bazoo]

Hmm....an interesting variation in responses. Thanks everyone.

[mdi]

With all the positive responses for file trim dies, I may get one for my .308...

Later; I was looking at trim dies on google and didn't see any dimensions for trim length. Anybody know what a .308 Win. trim die trims to? But a trim die may not work on my Co-Ax...

[TNsailorman]

I have used file trim dies in the past and still have one for the 8x57mm mauser which I convert from 30-06 military cases and sometimes .270, .280, and even 25-06. My method is to first run the case through a form die, then go to the trim die where I cut the excess neck off with a hack saw instead of using a file. Then I chamfer the inside and outside of the mouth to removes burrs. I then run the case through a full length die. Then I use a Forster trimmer set up with and inside neck reamer to trim to exact length and cut the case mouth to correct thickness using a custom inside neck trimmer made for me by Forster. I finish the case off by again chamfering the inside and outside of the case mouth again. I then check the case with a Forster case length/ headspace gage. Never had one to fail yet. I then check the case in the rifle I am going to load the case for. This process works for me even though it may be a little more involved than others methods, but I get some pretty accurate ammo by using this method. I have used the same method to form.300 Savage brass from 7.62x51mm military brass in the past. As I said, works for me, james

[RogerDat]

I only use file trim die for 30-06 conversion to 8mm Mauser. I form, mark, then take to the HF chop saw to shorten, then back in the form/trim die to file close before finish trim in the Lee EZ trim to square and chamfer the mouth. It s a little extra handling but by cutting close but leaving a little to file gives me room to true up mouth with the file since the HF chop saw is not a true 90* cut and the file allows squaring by eye before final trim.

I didn't even consider that the file dies existed as a method of trimming stretched brass. Makes sense, just didn't think of them as a sizing tool, only as a brass conversion tool.

[Bazoo]

In either the lyman 46 or 47 manual, If I recall correctly, it talks of using them for normal length trimming. Which is where I first learned of search.

[Bazoo]

What is the benefits or detractors of a sizing trim die, or a NON-sizing die for my intended application?

[EDG]

Trim dies may be confusing to some people. Sometimes they are confuising to me.

I had a Redding .40-65 trim die that had exactly the same internal dimensions as a Redding FL sizing die. The only difference was the die permitted you to trim an over length case with a file.
I have maybe 2 dozen or more file trim dies made by RCBS. All of these dies except one are the same size as a FL die except in the neck. The neck is .010 larger than the neck of a RCBS FL die. The one RCBS trim die that is different is a 45-70 trim die and it is the same size as a FL die.
I also have a few Pacific and CH trim dies. They all have the over size neck but size the rest of the case body.
I think the point of the body sizing is the case is pretty much squeezed back to normal dimensions so when it is trimmed you get the correct length case.
If you trim a case and then size it the case will get longer and it might need more trimming according to the numbers in the manual.
Based on my experience, when fired, a case may get shorter by .005 to .007. When it is resized it will get the missing .005 to .007 back plus any stretching that occurred when fire formed.
If you trim a fired case then resize it it may still be too long.

The oversize neck allows you to run the case through the FL die and size everything without the neck of the case being worked twice.
I do not use trim dies to trim cases. I use trim dies to form cut off way over length cases using a saw. For me it is more accurately a cut off die. The fine trimming is done in a case trimmer.
I have no real use for a trim die with the same neck as a FL die. Since I don't trim in them I could form the cases in a FL die.

There is one other use I have found for one or two trim dies - the 38-55 trim die made by RCBS in particular.
The .38-55 barrel groove diameters and therefore the bullet diameters vary from .375 to about .382. Most brass is about .010 thick and Starline brass is .007 thick.
The SAAMI chambers are too small to use a groove diameter bullet for the maximum SAAMI groove diameters with standard WW or similar brass.
Using the .38-55 trim die with its over size neck it will size a case to be a good fit for the bullet with a Starline case and a .380 to .382 bullet. The normal .38-55 FL die makes the loaded round look like the snake that swallowed a bowling ball.



What is the benefits or detractors of a sizing trim die, or a NON-sizing die for my intended application?

Since you desire a simple non-thinking way to trim cases it should work ok.
However you still have to lube the case like you are going to size it. Once you get it in the die you have to file off the end of some cases and not others.
Then remove the case from the die. You have to make sure you do not get the brass particles into the die before the next case goes in for a trim.
After trimming the case you have to deburr it and then size it again in your FL die to get the neck sized down to hold the bullet. See how redundant it is for trimming?

If for some reason you get a trim die that matches the neck of a FL die you still have the under size neck to expand. That is not a very big deal if you have Lyman M dies or the 3rd expander die normally found with a set of dies for a straight wall case. It is not so hot with a normal 2 die set.

Here is a summary
All the trim dies that I own size the case body. Two of them also size the neck just like a FL die with no expander. The rest of the dies size the case necks but leave them .010 over size.

I have never seen a trim die that does not size the body.

[Bazoo]

EDG, thank you for that information. That puts a whole new prospective on my idea.

I suppose, unless I could find a die, that does not size the brass, and would be oversized enough that I would not need to lube the cases to insert, then it would be more of a pain than its worth.

[Bazoo]

The redding die says it does not resize the case. This might be just what im thinking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532245/redding-trim-die-30-30-winchester

[EDG]

I read that same thing before I bought the .40-65 die and I was disappointed. I should have complained.
Redding's 40-65 die is dimensioned for the original 40-65 which used a .406 bullet. The die neck measures .416 inside diameter. If the case wall is .0085 thick you get a case neck with a .399.

Modern .40-65s have a .408 groove diameter and I use .410 bullets. Both Lyman and RCBS dies have a .421 ID in the neck so they size the case down to .404 still too small.

Because the Redding .40-65 trim die was so small I had little use for it. Had it been .010 larger than my .416 ID FL die it would have been .426 and would have been just right for a sizer.

I recommend that you interrogate Redding's customer service tech over the phone carefully. I did not find Redding's statement to be accurate.



The redding die says it does not resize the case. This might be just what im thinking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532245/redding-trim-die-30-30-winchester

[lawboy]

Started with a Forester, but didn't like the collet system of shell holders. Got a Lyman with the universal chuck and have used it for decades. I did purchase the drill driven arbor shaft to aid my arthritis a few years ago.
I don't understand the problem some folks report about mouths being out of square. If you fully seat the case and have a proper pilot how can it cut out of square?

Ditto. I have the same setup. I have a few trim dies. I have never used any of them.

[Bazoo]

I wonder if the sizing of the die is due to it being an old caliber?


I read that same thing before I bought the .40-65 die and I was disappointed. I should have complained.
Redding's 40-65 die is dimensioned for the original 40-65 which used a .406 bullet. The die neck measures .416 inside diameter. If the case wall is .0085 thick you get a case neck with a .399.

Modern .40-65s have a .408 groove diameter and I use .410 bullets. Both Lyman and RCBS dies have a .421 ID in the neck so they size the case down to .404 still too small.

Because the Redding .40-65 trim die was so small I had little use for it. Had it been .010 larger than my .416 ID FL die it would have been .426 and would have been just right for a sizer.

I recommend that you interrogate Redding's customer service tech over the phone carefully. I did not find Redding's statement to be accurate.

[lightload]

Be careful and don't forget to lube the case if the trim die also full length resizes or you will stick a case. I fond out the hard way.

[Bazoo]

Lightload, thank you. I definitely do not want a die that sizes, and I dont want to have to lube. I always full length size for my 30-30, and I am thinking I can trim after I size in my normal sizing die.

[EDG]

It is true that it is an old cartridge and the neck sizes but the die was new production bought about 15 years ago when BPCR was at its peak.
You might be overlooking the fact that ALL of my trim dies size the body. That includes a RCBS .30-30 trim die.
I have never seen a 7/8-14 trim die that did not size the body.


I wonder if the sizing of the die is due to it being an old caliber?

[dbosman]

I'm surprised no one mentioned a safe hack saw for cutting cases in a trim die.
File or grind the teeth off one side of a hack saw blade. That side goes against the die.

[EDG]

Many quality saw blades have a wave set such that it is not really possible to easily grind off one side of the blade to make it safe.
Rather than do that I modify a blade to fit my saber saw and drop a washer over the case neck to protect the top of the trim die.


I'm surprised no one mentioned a safe hack saw for cutting cases in a trim die.
File or grind the teeth off one side of a hack saw blade. That side goes against the die.

[dbosman]

Cool, I have a stash of ol.... vintage hack saw blades.

[Soundguy]

I'll check my trim die, pretty sure it sizes though.

[country gent]

The easiest way to grind the set off a hacksaw blade is with a surface grinder. set it on a piece of paper and feed down. If you want real accurate shim under back of blade to bring it to height. Another reason these dies size the body is to provide a load pressure to get reliable results and to help keep the case from spinning in the die when cutting it. The sizing provides down force tacing play out of the press and set up making for more accurate work

[Bazoo]

I would think, that the die body would not have to size the casing, just the neck, to keep things from going askew when trimming. I havent contacted any of the companies about it yet, but I plan to at some point. Been working on other projects of resent.

[Safeshot]

I like a Lee trim cutter in a drill press. Accurate, very fast and low cost.

[1hole]

I have, like and (occasionally) use several file trim dies. I won't bother to say how I use them because each of us has his own reasons and methods, mine are no more important than any others.

I find that dies trim my cases at least as consistent and square as my lathe trimmer and, usually, get it done a little faster, but speed is rarely important in my rifle hand loading. IF cases aren't too long to safely fit a chamber - and few are - the biggest value in uniformly trimmed cases is consistent crimps. But, for handguns ... I know of no way to quickly trim a pile of handgun cases in order to get consistent crimps than using trim dies.

So far as I KNOW, all trim dies are bored within the same tolerances as FL sizers so they would work as a sizer without decap and expanding stems.

My trim dies are case hardened like glass. Files glide over my dies like wet tires over highway glare ice and make no more change than to burnish the surface.