Slugged my bore, what is it telling me?

[Aeroscout]

Hello the camp. First post here on Cast Boolits, it has been a great resource thus far, thank you all.

I just bought my first SAA in the form of an Uberti SASS Pro in .45 Colt. I have been reloading for years, but mostly for my .45 ACP and for the most part I have only shot .452 size 200 gr SWC's over 5 grains of 231. Since this load shoots wonderfully out of my 1911 I have never really strayed from that combination, so my experience is somewhat limited.

I have now delved into reloading for my new Colt .45 and have been reading what seems to be a mountainous volume of information as I am toying with the idea of getting into casting for both it and my .45-70 Marlin guide gun. After much reading I did a somewhat cursory slugging of my barrel using what I had on hand. I mic'd my cylinders and they all come out right at .455 I used a 200 gr RNFP that consistently mic at .453 (These are boolits I mistakenly bought form my .45 ACP years ago, and since they are what I had already, this is what I have started with). I lubed up the barrel and the bullet and tapped it flat point end first from the muzzle end through the barrel using a wooden dowel and I am measuring right at .450 on the peaks and .443 in the valleys after passing it through the barrel. Aside from feeling a bit tighter at the muzzle I did not notice any difference in resistance as it passed through the barrel. I assume that means once the boolit squeezed down to .450 the barrel was consistent in its bore diameter without any significant restrictions encountered.

Just to make sure I am understanding this process correctly, what is this telling me concerning bullet size? I believe it is telling me I need to run .452 size boolits.

[square butte]

Size to your cylinder throats - Whatever diameter will pass through with light resistance.

[Aeroscout]

Size to your cylinder throats - Whatever diameter will pass through with light resistance.

Cylinder throats.....That is essentially the "exit holes" in the cylinder correct? And since they measured .455 I would want lead boolits sized to .454?

All I currently have are 200 grain .452 SWC's and 200 grain .453 RNFP. I want to buy some 250 grain boolits (boxes of 500 is how I usually buy them) and I would like to start out with the right size.

[runfiverun]

before you get all wound up measuring and trying to find 454 boolits in a box somewhere.
just load some of your 200gr swc's in the 45 colt brass and try them.
seat them to the shoulder in your 45 colt die.
back off your crimp die for the 45 acp and apply the same taper crimp you apply to the short rounds.
bump the 231 up to 6.5-7.0grs or so and go try them..

[mdi]

How did you measure the throats? Calipers usually don't give an accurate measurement of a small ID hole (shape of jaws). You can slug the throats just like a barrel and measure with micrometers (I prefer real measurements, not "push through", "light pressure" "snug fit" etc.). Use a soft lead slug, several thousandths larger than the throats and push through from cylinder rear to throats. Pin gauges are much more accurate, but you'd have to order one (or a set) and wait for delivery...

[TexasGrunt]

Where ya at in Texas?

I'm in Kaufman. If you're close I've got unsized boolits you can try.

[kungfustyle]

lead will swage down once it enters the forcing cone. What you don't want is the cylinder smaller than the bbl. Slug the cylinders to get a more accurate measurement. If you are not having problems shooting the lead you have then don't worry about it. .451/.452 should be right on for you. 45LC's are many times .454 so you lucked out. Load some up and shoot them at .452 if you don't have an abundance of lead at the forcing cone you are good to go.

[Aeroscout]

How did you measure the throats? Calipers usually don't give an accurate measurement of a small ID hole (shape of jaws). You can slug the throats just like a barrel and measure with micrometers (I prefer real measurements, not "push through", "light pressure" "snug fit" etc.). Use a soft lead slug, several thousandths larger than the throats and push through from cylinder rear to throats. Pin gauges are much more accurate, but you'd have to order one (or a set) and wait for delivery...

I measured using .001 calipers. Made sure I was square in the throat then rotated the caliper looking for my dial to move. stayed consistent at .455

[Aeroscout]

before you get all wound up measuring and trying to find 454 boolits in a box somewhere.
just load some of your 200gr swc's in the 45 colt brass and try them.
seat them to the shoulder in your 45 colt die.
back off your crimp die for the 45 acp and apply the same taper crimp you apply to the short rounds.
bump the 231 up to 6.5-7.0grs or so and go try them..

I have shot some of the 200 grain RNFP's. 12 rounds at 6gr 231, 12 at 6.5, 12 at 7 and 12 at 7.5 The loads at 6 grains seemed under pressure. Very little recoil and sooty brass. All shot low and to the left, but the groups tightened up as the loads got hotter. The 7.5 grain loads produced the best groups of the bunch. Still low and to the left though.

I have read that the lighter boolits tend to shoot low and the the 250gr will shoot closer to point of aim.

I want to try some 250's, but would like to buy some that are properly sized for my gun as this seems to be the way it is done according to my reading.

[Aeroscout]

before you get all wound up measuring and trying to find 454 boolits in a box somewhere.
just load some of your 200gr swc's in the 45 colt brass and try them.
seat them to the shoulder in your 45 colt die.
back off your crimp die for the 45 acp and apply the same taper crimp you apply to the short rounds.
bump the 231 up to 6.5-7.0grs or so and go try them..


What is shooting the 200 grain .452 SWC's taper crimped on the shoulder going to tell me that shooting the .453 RNPF's with a Lee factory crimp die crimped in the groove won't?

[Aeroscout]

Where ya at in Texas?

I'm in Kaufman. If you're close I've got unsized boolits you can try.

Basically right smack in the middle.....Fort Hood. I appreciate the offer, Kaufman is a bit of a hump.

[Good Cheer]

Dangit I miss living with Texans!

[Aeroscout]

How did you measure the throats? Calipers usually don't give an accurate measurement of a small ID hole (shape of jaws). You can slug the throats just like a barrel and measure with micrometers (I prefer real measurements, not "push through", "light pressure" "snug fit" etc.). Use a soft lead slug, several thousandths larger than the throats and push through from cylinder rear to throats. Pin gauges are much more accurate, but you'd have to order one (or a set) and wait for delivery...

PS........Whereabouts in So. Orygun? Originally from Roseburg.

[Bzcraig]

Is this the only gun that shoots low left?

[runfiverun]

low left is [quite often] a trigger thing.

shooting the 250's is fine and what I normally use too.
what shooting the 200's tells you is their diameter works just fine in the pistol, and you can just move along to the 250's.

I'd double check the fcd for boolit squish they are pretty famous for taking what you want and changing it to whatever size carbide ring lee sold you.

[DougGuy]

If you have .455" throats the factory crimp die with the carbide ring in the bottom is the LAST thing in the world you would want to use. That practically guarantees your boolits will be MUCH smaller than the cylinder throats as you have measured them. Calipers will only get you close, you can NOT depend on them for accuracy. You would have a more accurate measurement by driving a soft lead slug through the cylinder throats and then measuring with a micrometer that reads in .0001" Calipers are only good to help you find what drill bit you need to use in drilling holes in metal, they are about worthless for accurately measuring ID of a hole.

The best fitment you will achieve, is a boolit that is a light drag fit in the cylinder throats. Pull one of your boolits that you have run through the factory crimp die and see if it doesn't fall through the throats quite easily. If it has no drag fit at all, it is being sized down as it is being crimped. Lots of people here use the FC die with the carbide ring knocked out.

[mdi]

PS........Whereabouts in So. Orygun? Originally from Roseburg. Brookings, still too close to CA, we get a bit of "liberal overflow" here. I escaped CA 8 years ago after sixty-five years of smut, filth, and smog...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What you don't want is the cylinder smaller than the bbl.

Indeed you don't, but it matters more with hard bullets or with light bullets, or with hard, light bullets. The .455 Webleys often had a chamber throat smaller than the bore diameter, but with soft, hollow based bullets could be very accurate. This was the case with a friend's civilian Webley-Fosbery, their flagship model for a while, at .448 and .455. Some people do well with soft lead which isn't hollow based.

I don't see that the situation would be worse with the ailment people sometimes complain of, barrel threads which are so tight or over-tightened that they constrict the bore. This is often by such a small amount that it could be cured by lapping. I would prefer a lead lap cast in the forward part of the barrel for this, rather than firelapping.

[44man]

I don't like the idea of using a boolit to measure the groove size and the dowel is a real no-no too. Only safe thing is a brass rod. A slug must be pure lead. If hard it can spring back or shave and either will give a false reading.
Calipers are not good for a hole, with a .455" reading, chances are they are even larger.
I have a way of using a pure RB to slug revolvers and can upset it in the bore near the muzzle and another past the cone and get it out. I also upset a ball in the throats. You need a mike that reads to .0001 for accuracy.
It really does no harm to shoot boolits a little under throat as long as they are over groove. What counts is a straight start and steerage at the cone and that leaves out any Keith style boolit.
I shoot a .430" boolit from .430" groove and .4324" throats all the time, my most accurate because I made the ogive to match the forcing cone angle of 11° and I shoot hard lead.
That .45 calls for a proper re-do. Once proper measurements are found it is still no reason to get anal over it.
Toss Lee dies and get Hornady for proper case tension and straight loads. They are as good as my BR dies I had made for the .44, collar dies. I might have the only set of BR dies ever made for a revolver. They use a standard press. No arbor press needed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The class act for measuring land and throat diameters is pin gauges. But they can be very expensive for a set, most of which you will never use. On eBay you can buy single gauges cheaply from China, either steel or carbide, and only a few will do all you need. They are mostly metric, but the international inch got to be 25.4mm. quite a while ago. I made a good D-reamer for a bullet die with one of the carbide ones.

[Aeroscout]

Is this the only gun that shoots low left?

Yes it is. And not grouping particularly well either.

[Aeroscout]

low left is [quite often] a trigger thing.

shooting the 250's is fine and what I normally use too.
what shooting the 200's tells you is their diameter works just fine in the pistol, and you can just move along to the 250's.

I'd double check the fcd for boolit squish they are pretty famous for taking what you want and changing it to whatever size carbide ring lee sold you.


If you have .455" throats the factory crimp die with the carbide ring in the bottom is the LAST thing in the world you would want to use. That practically guarantees your boolits will be MUCH smaller than the cylinder throats as you have measured them. Calipers will only get you close, you can NOT depend on them for accuracy. You would have a more accurate measurement by driving a soft lead slug through the cylinder throats and then measuring with a micrometer that reads in .0001" Calipers are only good to help you find what drill bit you need to use in drilling holes in metal, they are about worthless for accurately measuring ID of a hole.

The best fitment you will achieve, is a boolit that is a light drag fit in the cylinder throats. Pull one of your boolits that you have run through the factory crimp die and see if it doesn't fall through the throats quite easily. If it has no drag fit at all, it is being sized down as it is being crimped. Lots of people here use the FC die with the carbide ring knocked out.

I have pulled and checked a crimped bullet and they still measure .453. Also, I have found the Lee FCD is not touching my brass when I run the cartridge up into the die. Not until the crimping action occurs do I feel any sort of resistance in the FCD. I am loading on a RCBS piggyback II press and the only friction I feel is when the brass goes into and out of the full length resizing/depriming die in station one of the press.

[Aeroscout]

I don't like the idea of using a boolit to measure the groove size and the dowel is a real no-no too. Only safe thing is a brass rod. A slug must be pure lead. If hard it can spring back or shave and either will give a false reading.
Calipers are not good for a hole, with a .455" reading, chances are they are even larger.
I have a way of using a pure RB to slug revolvers and can upset it in the bore near the muzzle and another past the cone and get it out. I also upset a ball in the throats. You need a mike that reads to .0001 for accuracy.
It really does no harm to shoot boolits a little under throat as long as they are over groove. What counts is a straight start and steerage at the cone and that leaves out any Keith style boolit.
I shoot a .430" boolit from .430" groove and .4324" throats all the time, my most accurate because I made the ogive to match the forcing cone angle of 11° and I shoot hard lead.
That .45 calls for a proper re-do. Once proper measurements are found it is still no reason to get anal over it.
Toss Lee dies and get Hornady for proper case tension and straight loads. They are as good as my BR dies I had made for the .44, collar dies. I might have the only set of BR dies ever made for a revolver. They use a standard press. No arbor press needed.

May I ask why a wooden dowel rod is a no-no as opposed to a brass rod? I get the brass rod is the "best" answer but do not understand what is wrong with a wooden dowel as it certainly is not going to harm the barrel.

[Aeroscout]

10 Rounds 200gr RNFP @ 7gr W231

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/rcjaquette/Shot%20Groups/20170407_165454_zpsfdstji88.jpg

18 Rounds 200gr RNFP @ 7.5gr W231

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/rcjaquette/Shot%20Groups/20170407_171533_zpsh9vsih8g.jpg

Reality check....16 rounds 200gr SWC @ 5gr W231 fired from 1911
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/rcjaquette/Shot%20Groups/20170407_172825_zpsryktaw2n.jpg

18 rounds 200gr RNFP @ 8gr W231

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/rcjaquette/Shot%20Groups/20170407_173852_zpsl926proc.jpg

Another sanity check with 16 more 200gr SWC fired from 1911

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/rcjaquette/Shot%20Groups/20170407_180616_zpscneoozg9.jpg


All rounds fired from a rest at 25 feet.......I chrono'd the strings also, so will update with velocity when I get home.

[dondiego]

Wooden rods have been known to get hopefully stuck and I know of one barrel ruined when that person tried to drill it out.

[Aeroscout]

Wooden rods have been known to get hopefully stuck and I know of one barrel ruined when that person tried to drill it out.

Noted. I will get a brass rod.

[Whitespider]

Aeroscout,
If you're used to shooting pistols like the 1911, you're likely making a couple errors shooting the single-action revolver.
Don't grip the revolver handle tightly, it should actually slip/roll into the hand a little when fired.
If you're trying to hold on to the revolver tight enough to stop any handle slippage in your hand they will near always shoot low, and to one side or the other (depending on direction of rifling twist and whether you shoot left or right handed).
The other likely error is you're placing your hand/grip too low on the handle... which does the same thing as holding it too tightly... they'll shoot low every time.

Grip the handle a bit higher, and looser (it will feel a kind'a weird at first)... let the gun roll back into your hand under recoil.
To tighten groups that grip position and tension needs to be consistent from shot-to-shot.

here's a couple of pictures showing the "high" hold on a single action handle.
192962192963
*

[Whitespider]

The "stringing" of your shots are a classic example of what happens with a changing grip position or grip tension when shooting a single action revolver.

192964

*

[Aeroscout]

The "stringing" of your shots are a classic example of what happens with a changing grip position or grip tension when shooting a single action revolver.

192964

*

Well, you are probably on to something there. I was using the typical 2 handed grip I use with my 1911's.

So in effect, if I am following correctly, I want to grip the SAA such that if I were shooting a browning hi power, I would more than likely cause a stovepipe.....a tad limp wristed?

[gpidaho]

Aeroscout;I'm going a bit off track here but pin gauges are one of the handiest measuring tools I own. I picked up a set (.250-.500) From Enco for under $100. I use them a lot and believe them to be well worth their cost. As mentioned above, calipers are one of those kinda close measuring tools that are best used for comparative measuring. Good luck with your new 45 Colt, I enjoy my Blackhawk convertible. Gp

[Whitespider]

Well, you are probably on to something there. I was using the typical 2 handed grip I use with my 1911's.

So in effect, if I am following correctly, I want to grip the SAA such that if I were shooting a browning hi power, I would more than likely cause a stovepipe.....a tad limp wristed?

Well... sort'a... yeah.
More like, don't try to choke-the-chicken... allow the gun to recoil naturally in your hand which will raise point-of-impact. And, most importantly, hold it exactly the same each time or your shots will string (point-of-impact will change with grip changes). A two hand grip is fine, but the support hand is used just to steady the aim, not to "grip" the gun. When I shoot a single action from a rest I pile sandbags under my wrists (not the butt of the handle) and in front of my support hand... nothing except my hands touch the gun. That allows the gun to recoil naturally just as if I was shooting without the rest... If I was lined up for a shot you could lift it from my grip relatively easily.

Of course you have to tighten your grip on harder recoiling guns/loads... meaning I firm-up my grip shooting a .44 Magnum vs. standard .45 Colt loads... or the gun will rotate in your hand hard enough to plunge the hammer into the web between the thumb and forefinger. But again... be consistent... and remember the "firmer" you hold the gun, the lower the point of impact.

Once you get you grip down so your groups ain't stringing, and you decide on a load, and it's still shooting a bit low, at the range you want to regulate the sights... the next step is to start filing the front sight down incrementally. And if it's still shooting a bit to the left there's different ways to regulates the sights... you can bend the front sight a tiny bit, or file one side of it if it's thick enough, or file open one side of the rear notch a little, or actually turn the barrel in the frame a tiny bit (which requires proper tools so you don't warp the frame).

Seriously though, I'm thinkin' you can get it hitting pretty close to center bull by just playing with your grip and making it consistent.
*

[Whitespider]

Oh... also... a heavier boolit will shoot higher.
Likely the sights are "factory regulated" to the standard 255 grain boolit at 750 fps... or possibly the 230 grain "Cowboy" type load.
You might wanna' try something heavier before messing with the sights.
*

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Wooden rods have been known to get hopefully stuck and I know of one barrel ruined when that person tried to drill it out.

That is true, even one well under bore size if it splits diagonally. It may undergo more strain than a ramrod or cleaning rod. You can use a brass tube as a drill guide, but if you are going to get a tube why not get a rod?

If it does happen, heat is probably the easiest way to loosen it, so long as it is something like pine or birch, and you can divest the gun of springs and plastic sight elements. But I wouldn't do that with any more exotic wood, excellent as they may be for cleaning rods. You never know what is going to ooze out of those.

[Aeroscout]

Well... sort'a... yeah.
More like, don't try to choke-the-chicken... allow the gun to recoil naturally in your hand which will raise point-of-impact. And, most importantly, hold it exactly the same each time or your shots will string (point-of-impact will change with grip changes). A two hand grip is fine, but the support hand is used just to steady the aim, not to "grip" the gun. When I shoot a single action from a rest I pile sandbags under my wrists (not the butt of the handle) and in front of my support hand... nothing except my hands touch the gun. That allows the gun to recoil naturally just as if I was shooting without the rest... If I was lined up for a shot you could lift it from my grip relatively easily.

Of course you have to tighten your grip on harder recoiling guns/loads... meaning I firm-up my grip shooting a .44 Magnum vs. standard .45 Colt loads... or the gun will rotate in your hand hard enough to plunge the hammer into the web between the thumb and forefinger. But again... be consistent... and remember the "firmer" you hold the gun, the lower the point of impact.

Once you get you grip down so your groups ain't stringing, and you decide on a load, and it's still shooting a bit low, at the range you want to regulate the sights... the next step is to start filing the front sight down incrementally. And if it's still shooting a bit to the left there's different ways to regulates the sights... you can bend the front sight a tiny bit, or file one side of it if it's thick enough, or file open one side of the rear notch a little, or actually turn the barrel in the frame a tiny bit (which requires proper tools so you don't warp the frame).

Seriously though, I'm thinkin' you can get it hitting pretty close to center bull by just playing with your grip and making it consistent.
*
Thank you for the pointers. I have definitely been using a 2 handed chicken choke type grip and was also resting the butt of the gun on the rest when firing from the bench.

I will incorporate your suggestions into my next range session prior to making any other changes......besides loading up some 250 grainers. Thanks for your time passing me some good poop.

[Whitespider]

I'll be curious about the results.
*

[Aeroscout]

I will definitely post my results.

[44man]

Aeroscout,
If you're used to shooting pistols like the 1911, you're likely making a couple errors shooting the single-action revolver.
Don't grip the revolver handle tightly, it should actually slip/roll into the hand a little when fired.
If you're trying to hold on to the revolver tight enough to stop any handle slippage in your hand they will near always shoot low, and to one side or the other (depending on direction of rifling twist and whether you shoot left or right handed).
The other likely error is you're placing your hand/grip too low on the handle... which does the same thing as holding it too tightly... they'll shoot low every time.

Grip the handle a bit higher, and looser (it will feel a kind'a weird at first)... let the gun roll back into your hand under recoil.
To tighten groups that grip position and tension needs to be consistent from shot-to-shot.

here's a couple of pictures showing the "high" hold on a single action handle.
192962192963
*
Not my way at all. I hold low, little finger under the grip, held so firm my hand does not change position on the grip through recoil and recovery. Finger as straight to the trigger as I can get. No "roll" or movement allowed.193029
Hold my big revolvers loose and let it ride will send you to get stitches and ice bags on your eye, The .44 might split the web of your thumb.

[Whitespider]

Not my way at all. I hold low, little finger under the grip, held so firm my hand does not change position on the grip through recoil and recovery. Finger as straight to the trigger as I can get. No "roll" or movement allowed.193029
Hold my big revolvers loose and let it ride will send you to get stitches and ice bags on your eye, The .44 might split the web of your thumb.
I don't believe it would be possible to let a single-action wearing rubber grips roll naturally in the hand... rubber grips on revolvers just tear the hide off my hands.
I don't own a single revolver, single or double action, with rubber grips... any that came with them were ditched years ago. In fact, the only handgun I own with rubber grip panels is my Star Firestar M40... and that's only because I've never found any wood for it I like.

My M29 Classic came with Hogue rubber grips... I stripped them off before I ever fired the gun and replaced them with these...
193056

My King Cobra also came with rubber grips, and even worse with finger grooves... man I hated them...
193057

All of my single-actions are still wearing the grips that came on them... the factory grips work perfectly for me, even on the Super Blackhawk...
193058
*

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wonder what would be the reaction to someone suggesting Navy-sized grips, if Colt had opted for 1869 Army grips all those years ago?

[Aeroscout]

My King Cobra also came with rubber grips, and even worse with finger grooves... man I hated them...
193057

*

Where did you get the grips for your King Cobra?

[Whitespider]

Where did you get the grips for your King Cobra?
Those are actual Colt grips, complete with the Colt medallion.
I spotted them on a table at a local gun show some years back, just a few weeks after acquiring the revolver. The guy running the table had no idea what model they had come off of, or even what frame size... said they were in a box of "stuff" he'd traded for. I went and got the revolver, and as luck would have it, they fit right on the frame... I trade my rubber, finger groove grips and a 10 dollar bill for them.

It's funny... I've never seen any grips like them on any Colt revolver, I'm thinkin' they must have come off some sort of special or limited edition model.
Here's the other grip panel...
193134
*

[44man]

I never let a revolver "roll". I shoot big guns from the .44 SBH to the BFR 45-70, .475 and .500 JRH all with rubber grips. I shoot bare hand and never had a mark on my palm. You can't hold that loose.
Friend came to shoot my .475 and I forgot to tell him to "hold tight" and he split his head and got a shiner you would not believe. He said he likes to hold loose and he hates my guns.
Too many tout "roll" but it is just not right. Old wives tale to get the hammer closer for the next cock. Get a grip!
What do you do with a large caliber rifle or a shotgun? You pull tight to your shoulder and you hold the gun tight. Why let a revolver move in your hand?

[Aeroscout]

"The Colt Single Action grip frame is also considered as the best for shooting as it rolls naturally in the hand upon recoil which in turn places the thumb in the proper place for fast re-cocking of the hammer. However, once that recoil increases past a certain point the rolling of the grip frame in the hand becomes a liability and often allows the hammer to dig into the back of the hand. This is why the standard grip frame did not last very long on the Ruger .44 Magnum Blackhawk. For most shooters, the Bisley Model grip frame does a much better job of handling recoil than the original Single Action style."
- Single Action Sixguns by John Taffin Chapter 7.

Just sayin