.492-550 'Hotrod Renegade' no dice!

[54bore]

I got a chance this morning to try the 'Anticipated' Buffalo Arms .492 550 Grain PP bullets, as you can see by my Target they didn't fair well, all 5 shots felt rock solid good. This Rifle shoots the Lee C501-440-RF S&W 500 bullet that Idahoron Paper Patch pioneered EXTREMELY well!! I fully expected these long 550 grain Buffalo Arms bullets to punch centers out, NO DICE! My new little 1:20 Twist .50 Cal Scout shot these bullets pretty darn decent, Good enough i am confident i can get them better in it, but wont be happening in this Green Mountain LRH 1:28 .50

These bullets are a PITA anyway to paper patch and dry size like we are doing, being swaged they have a sharp edge around the base that needs removed before running them through the sizing die or they will cut your papers. I like the .492 'true paper patch' diameter, but thats about all i have good to say about these.

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[Edward]

I have had those same sharp edges sizing down 454 to 446 to 440 3 steps works great except the sharp edge so I put a 220 sheet on my steel bench top and rub the base and done . The added benefit I can tighten up the bell curve ,ending up with closer groups (weight wise) almost like fine tuning ,of course it helps if your not pressed for time ! Most folks paper patching aren"t pressed for time /Ed

[54bore]

I have had those same sharp edges sizing down 454 to 446 to 440 3 steps works great except the sharp edge so I put a 220 sheet on my steel bench top and rub the base and done . The added benefit I can tighten up the bell curve ,ending up with closer groups (weight wise) almost like fine tuning ,of course it helps if your not pressed for time ! Most folks paper patching aren"t pressed for time /Ed

I did similiar, i used a piece of 320 Grit paper i cup shaped, gave each bullet base a light turn or 2 to remove the burr. It worked good

[54bore]

I went down in my basement yesterday evening to Paper Patch and size some 500 S&W bullets From my Lee Mold, i have had them laying on my loading bench from last year. I ran 15 bullets through my .500 die, switch the .500 die for my new .499, wrapped 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper and started to send them through, first one STUCK, Here is the Result of that

192617

This is about as good of an example as you can get of why NOT to paper patch a bullet that is already oversize

I ended up drilling a hole through the center of the bullet to weaken it so i could remove it easier. I immediately took 2 bullets upstairs and tested the hardness with my Cabin tree lead hardness tester, they were dead on 8 BHN, I cleaned the living PI$$ out of the .500 die and tried sending them through it first, another one STUCK. I ended up sticking 3 total, 2 weren't bad to remove.

I could NOT figure out *** had happened? I have paper patched these bullets before, they shoot AWESOME out of my Green Mountain LRH .50 Cal, The ONLY thing different was the Temperature, it is cold in my basement! (i dont keep heat down there) it NEVER freezes, but it is cold, i checked the Temp and it was 53 Degrees in my basement. I brought the bullets and dies upstairs and used the wife's hair dryer to heat them, This solved the problem and allowed me to finish the remaining bullets. BUT, This would NOT be a problem IF the bullet dropped from the mold in the low to mid .490s, BUT this bullet drops at .503 From my mold, Then you wrap 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper around it and you have .511, Then you send that through a .498-499 die, that is a DAMN HARSH PUSH! THERE IS A REASON A TRUE PAPER PATCH BULLET MEASURES UNDER BORE SEVERAL THOU!!!

I am on my way over to Buffalo Arms this morning to get a box of their .492 diameter, 450 Grain bullets. If they shoot good this will be the last time i use the S&W .500 Bullet, The Mold will be free, you pay the shipping.

[54bore]

Just in case anyone thinks it, This is NOTHING against Idahoron! He is a personal friend of mine and I think the world of the guy!! Ron pioneer Paper Patched this bullet and it has worked AWESOME for him! This bullet shot absolutely AWESOME for me as well out of my Stainless .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH, My plan yesterday evening was to make some of these up and show how well they shoot out of my rifle compared to the long .492-550 grain Buffalo Arms bullets i shot in the starting of this thread. But after this RODEO i won't be hassling with the S&W 500 bullet anymore

If for some reason the new Bullets i get from Buffalo Arms this morning (.492-450s) don't shoot well, i will get Tom at Accurate molds to closely copy the S&W 500 bullet, BUT make the body diameter .493ish

[Edward]

Just to let you know it happened 2 weeks ago I had a similar problem casting with stik on wheel weight ,my Lee tester called it 8 BHN the only thing I added was 6 inch of 50/50 solder for fill out . Immediately after cooling I sized some (was in a hurry) no problem wrapped and shot ,how ever 3-4 days later I was going to finish up this pile and got the same result as you and ended up sizing three times as in the result I used in the above post to get sizing done and like you I do not know why /still 8 BHN /Ed

[johnson1942]

there is is simple way to use that bullet. order from lee a .492 push through resizeing die and resize those bullets then wrap them. i have never ever resized after ive wrapped my bullets. the other way is take a 3/8th wooden dowel about 6 inches long and cut down the middle about 3 inches. get some 2000 grit emery paper from the auto parts store or online. cut a long 4 inch strip and insert one end in the slot on the 3/8 dowel and wind it around it so it just fits into you reducing die, with you 3/8 drill motor and that dowel, polish the entrance and the die so it is better than chrome. it wont become sticky it will get slippery. there is alway a way 54 bore, there is always a way.

[johnson1942]

oh yes, my bullets for my 50 cal 1/28 twist are between 500 and 550, more like 535, however they have the shortest nose possible and that is still a nose. the 550/s must be too long for your gun. we learn to improvise as we go and when we find the perfect nitch its locked in the computer brain of ours and then we get what we want. dont give up, just keep going on.

[54bore]

Just to let you know it happened 2 weeks ago I had a similar problem casting with stik on wheel weight ,my Lee tester called it 8 BHN the only thing I added was 6 inch of 50/50 solder for fill out . Immediately after cooling I sized some (was in a hurry) no problem wrapped and shot ,how ever 3-4 days later I was going to finish up this pile and got the same result as you and ended up sizing three times as in the result I used in the above post to get sizing done and like you I do not know why /still 8 BHN /Ed

It is an odd deal for sure! Here is a Group from this EXACT same batch of bullets a year or so ago, after i poured them they sized and patched ok, not great, but that's to be expected when you try to run .511 through a .498 sizing die, I DEFINITELY didn't have the kind of trouble above by ANY means. Something happened with age, and being cold? This is 5 Shots at 80 yards with this same batch of bullets

192623

[54bore]

If i were to try this again with the .500 S&W bullet i would get them sized shortly after pouring them, NOT after they sat on my bench for a year or better. The reason i offered the mold is it is HIGHLY DOUBTFUL i will bother with this again

I will seek a better way, that being a bullet of similiar design with a body diameter 'dropped from the mold' at .493ish

[54bore]

Since i don't plan to shoot these bullets anymore i decided to do a thorough lead hardness test, I unwrapped the 15 bullets i had ready to shoot and tested every one of them in my Cabin Tree, .057-.060 is 8 BHN on my dial cross referenced to the BHN sheet that came with my Cabin Tree, all 15 of these came out at the top end of .060, so they are definitely in the 8 BHN

[johnson1942]

54 bore, i never bothered to learn the hardness scale. maybe you bullets were too hard. they have to bump up or its no good for the groups. i use pure lead or close to it. mine are deep hollow bases also and they bump up easier.

[54bore]

A few pics of the new Buffalo Arms .492-450 Grain, these bullets actually weigh 455.5 grains, being swaged they are spot on with eachother, i weighed several and they are no more than a few tenths either way

New .492-450 Patched up, sized to .499, ready to test
192637

Standing beside the S&W 500 bullet
192638

Left is the .492-550 i tried in the beginning of this thread, didn't work out in my rifle. Center is The new .492-450, and right is the S&W 500 bullet. Some comparison idea of the 3
192640

[idahoron]

Since i don't plan to shoot these bullets anymore i decided to do a thorough lead hardness test, I unwrapped the 15 bullets i had ready to shoot and tested every one of them in my Cabin Tree, .057-.060 is 8 BHN on my dial cross referenced to the BHN sheet that came with my Cabin Tree, all 15 of these came out at the top end of .060, so they are definitely in the 8 BHN

I think your hardness chart and mine are different. From .045 to .050 is 8.5 BHN, from .062 to .065 on my cabine Tree chart is 9.5 BHN. ,068 to .070 is 10 BHN. If yours is on the high side of .060's you might be in the 10 BHN range according to my chart.

That is pretty hard. Like I said I had trouble with sizing lead that was 9 BHN. At the time I was thinking that it was purely the hardness was the factor. Maybe a cold die that is slightly shrunk could have been an issue too, maybe. But I got to fall back on the hardness and larger diameter due to the harder alloy. We had a discussion on this not too long ago. I don't remember the name of the thread but I questioned the hardness of the bullets you were sizing. I was worried that 9 was too hard. This is the 9 BHN hardness bullets I had trouble with.




http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Coreysbullets.jpg




Another thing that waves a flag that the alloy is too hard is the size of the bullets. I know that moulds can vary in size a bit but mine drops out pretty regular a .500 to .501 weighing 458 to 459 grains. The dial reading on my tester is .032 to .038 for the lead I am using. If I wrap my bullets I get a measurement of .506 to .507 That is a lot different than yours. Again either the moulds are way different or the alloy is much harder.




One last thing thing that leads me to think the bullets are too hard is there are a lot of guys sizing these like I do to .501 with soft lead and have no troubles. With the bullets in the picture above that I had trouble with at 9 bhn, yours that appear to be between 9 and 10, and Edwards that stuck at 8 BHN. I am leaning back to my original thought that if the lead is harder than my target of 6 to 7 BHN they are going to not go through well at all. I have been sizing these bullets at this hardness and shooting them for close to 10 years. The only trouble I have had was lead that was too hard.

[charlie b]

I got a bunch of the .492-450s a while ago and they seem to work well with my GPH barrel. Hope they do for you too.

Lead does change a bit over time. Some alloys will get harder or brittle, some get softer. Father-in-law and I used to test them every month or so after we cast them. We found some alloys that worked well, plain WW being one of them. We tried for some really soft stuff and found that it had to be almost pure lead with just a little tin in it, just enough for it to fill the molds well. IIRC it was about 1oz of tin per 10lb pot of lead or something like that, not much. Anything else and then ran into the hardness issues until you hit another good combination.

We also tried putting the harder ones in an oven to anneal them. It worked, but, over time they would harden again.

Oh, and, yes the temp of the cast and mold were even more important. Not too cold, not too hot.... :)

[idahoron]

Just in case anyone thinks it, This is NOTHING against Idahoron! He is a personal friend of mine and I think the world of the guy!! Ron pioneer Paper Patched this bullet and it has worked AWESOME for him! This bullet shot absolutely AWESOME for me as well out of my Stainless .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH, My plan yesterday evening was to make some of these up and show how well they shoot out of my rifle compared to the long .492-550 grain Buffalo Arms bullets i shot in the starting of this thread. But after this RODEO i won't be hassling with the S&W 500 bullet anymore



I can understand that you want to try something different because of the trouble with the sizing but. In all fairness your not using the combination I designed for the bullet.

If you go back to lead that is .032 to .038 on the Tester dial, wrap and size to .501 that bullet will go through the sizer and they will shoot well out of that GM barrel.

I know everyone that shoots changes something on their loads. Some guys shoot more powder than I do others use different wads, some use different paper. But your blaming the bullet and paper combination for something that I believe comes from lead that is too hard.

[54bore]

I understand the hardness being important in sizing, but i Wonder Why this EXACT same batch of bullets worked so well one time? A year later they wouldn't go through my sizer? And my sizer is now 1 thou bigger so it should have been even easier than before.

[54bore]

You will never hear me say the S&W 500 bullet is bad, The bullet is PROVEN plain n simple! My complaint is the Size of the bullet for Paper Patching, it drops from the mold at .502-.503ish, ad 2 wraps of my 9# onion skin paper and that bumps the high side up to .511, then push that through a 498-501 sizing die, that is a **** TON OF FORCE no matter what the hardness is, obviously the softer the lead the better. My idea of the PERFECT bullet to PP is this EXACT S&W 500 design (minus the gas check) with a body diameter of .493-.494, I plan to have Tom at Accurate Cut this mold for me.

My reason for starting this is really simple, to help someone else that might run in to this problem.

[idahoron]

I understand the hardness being important in sizing, but i Wonder Why this EXACT same batch of bullets worked so well one time? A year later they wouldn't go through my sizer? And my sizer is now 1 thou bigger so it should have been even easier than before.

Alloy gets harder with age. When they are fresh sizing is much easier even with the soft ones I am doing.

[idahoron]

You will never hear me say the S&W 500 bullet is bad, The bullet is PROVEN plain n simple! My complaint is the Size of the bullet for Paper Patching, it drops from the mold at .502-.503ish, ad 2 wraps of my 9# onion skin paper and that bumps the high side up to .511, then push that through a 498-501 sizing die, that is a **** TON OF FORCE no matter what the hardness is, obviously the softer the lead the better. My idea of the PERFECT bullet to PP is this EXACT S&W 500 design (minus the gas check) with a body diameter of .493-.494, I plan to have Tom at Accurate Cut this mold for me.

My reason for starting this is really simple, to help someone else that might run in to this problem.

Again hard alloy will drop out of a mould larger in diameter. Yours are at .511 after wrapping mine are .506 to .507

When shoving them through with soft lead from .507 to .501

I don't see that much resistance at all.

Again if your lead is hard alloy the bullets will drop out larger than soft lead. Alloy depending on what the alloy is can be very tough/hard to size.

If your lead was .032 to .038 on your dial you will see a drastic difference in force needed to push them through the die.

[54bore]

Alloy gets harder with age. When they are fresh sizing is much easier even with the soft ones I am doing.

I wish i would of had my Cabin tree hardness tester back when i poured this batch of bullets a year or so ago so i could have known what they were then, and what they read now on my tester, even though our charts differ, i stil would have known.

[54bore]

Again hard alloy will drop out of a mould larger in diameter. Yours are at .511 after wrapping mine are .506 to .507

When shoving them through with soft lead from .507 to .501

I don't see that much resistance at all.

Again if your lead is hard alloy the bullets will drop out larger than soft lead. Alloy depending on what the alloy is can be very tough/hard to size.

If your lead was .032 to .038 on your dial you will see a drastic difference in force needed to push them through the die.


Remember our paper is not the exact same thickness either, i have the newer stuff, I believe yours is the older thinner paper? My bet is most of the new guys getting into this are using the same newer paper like myself? I dont think you can even get that old thinner onion skin paper anymore? I see it sold on Ebay and such as 'vintage' onion skin paper. 2 wraps of My paper adds 8 thou to the overall diameter

[idahoron]

Don't get me wrong as I answer these questions. We are friends, GOOD friends. I value your friendship.


I have three kinds of paper, the newer paper and the old style and air mail paper. I sell bullets wrapped in the newer stuff.



Sometimes the root of the problem is not so easy to see. I am wanting to try to get to the root of the trouble so others don't see it as a barrier for them if they want to take up paper patching with the 500 s&w bullet. If others run into the same trouble you did I want them to get the answer to the problem.




The reason I developed this load was for guys that didn't or couldn't get a custom mould made to an exact size. They just want a cheep mould, a cheep sizer, and some paper. If they just buy pure lead and not worry about hardening at all, this load will shoot in a large assortment of rifles. I have used them or seen others that have used them in Green Mountain, Knight, Thompson center White Mountain carbines, Lyman Great Plains, Pedersoldi Missouri river Hawken, and several CVA's. A lot of testing went into this when I wrote the sticky above. When I published it I had several years of work into it. I have only seen paper strip once on me. That was on bullets that were harder than I recommend. The man that sent them to me had the same trouble and he sent me the sample to test. I tested them and tried to wrap them. They stripped on me like they did him.

Again we all change things to fit our needs. You have changed these quite a bit and they are not fitting your needs. The answer can be found two ways. Go back to known soft lead and make a batch. Wrap them and size them to .501 if you have one. Then wrap some and try them with your .499 sizer. to see if there is a difference. But you need to make sure you have pure lead or lead that is under .038 on the tester.

[54bore]

Don't get me wrong as I answer these questions. We are friends, GOOD friends. I value your friendship.


I have three kinds of paper, the newer paper and the old style and air mail paper. I sell bullets wrapped in the newer stuff.



Sometimes the root of the problem is not so easy to see. I am wanting to try to get to the root of the trouble so others don't see it as a barrier for them if they want to take up paper patching with the 500 s&w bullet. If others run into the same trouble you did I want them to get the answer to the problem.




The reason I developed this load was for guys that didn't or couldn't get a custom mould made to an exact size. They just want a cheep mould, a cheep sizer, and some paper. If they just buy pure lead and not worry about hardening at all, this load will shoot in a large assortment of rifles. I have used them or seen others that have used them in Green Mountain, Knight, Thompson center White Mountain carbines, Lyman Great Plains, Pedersoldi Missouri river Hawken, and several CVA's. A lot of testing went into this when I wrote the sticky above. When I published it I had several years of work into it. I have only seen paper strip once on me. That was on bullets that were harder than I recommend. The man that sent them to me had the same trouble and he sent me the sample to test. I tested them and tried to wrap them. They stripped on me like they did him.

Again we all change things to fit our needs. You have changed these quite a bit and they are not fitting your needs. The answer can be found two ways. Go back to known soft lead and make a batch. Wrap them and size them to .501 if you have one. Then wrap some and try them with your .499 sizer. to see if there is a difference. But you need to make sure you have pure lead or lead that is under .038 on the tester.


I agree, and RESPECT your work on this project Ron, after all you are who i followed when i got in to this. The key to success with this system is SOFT PURE LEAD, After what i just went through I wouldn't advise trying to harden the lead at all, Unless you have a good hardness tester. This EXACT batch of bullets that STUCK in my sizer last night, patched and sized fine a year ago, and they shot amazing out of my rifle! When i ran into this glitch last night it PI$$ED me off, I thought it would be helpful to share my problems, so others are aware and hopefully prevent this from happening to them.

Me being me, if something interests me i will take it as far as i can possibly run with it, I have learned an absolute TON about this stuff From guys like you, through my own trial and error, and Competitive shooters, living next to Buffalo arms has been a good and expensive thing! I have found other ways that I believe and SWEAR are much better, but they also cost more than a cheap Lee Mold to get in to.

[Saxtonyoung]

Ron is right on the money when he says that an lead alloy will age harden. Veral Smith discusses this same thing in his book " Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets".

About 10 years ago I was shooting in a muzzleloader league with a gun I built with a Green Mountain 45 caliber barrel with a 1 - 18" twist. Using a batch of lead with a unknown to me alloy I casted several hundred bullets using a Lyman Witworth mold and sized and lube them all to .450 for a bore size fit. These bullets shot incredibly accurate anywhere from 25 - 250 yards using a peep sight and 50 grains of 777. After a few weeks I was shooting at the league at the 50 yard range and about half my bullets were hitting the target sideways and not necessarily where I was aiming. I'm assuming they were not bumping up correctly to fill the grooves. That's when I learned I could use this alloy for my purposes only if they where recently cast or I needed to find a softer lead. I did finish using this alloy but re-casted bullets on a need to use in the next couple of weeks basis.

[54bore]

Ron is right on the money when he says that an lead alloy will age harden. Veral Smith discusses this same thing in his book " Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets".

About 10 years ago I was shooting in a muzzleloader league with a gun I built with a Green Mountain 45 caliber barrel with a 1 - 18" twist. Using a batch of lead with a unknown to me alloy I casted several hundred bullets using a Lyman Witworth mold and sized and lube them all to .450 for a bore size fit. These bullets shot incredibly accurate anywhere from 25 - 250 yards using a peep sight and 50 grains of 777. After a few weeks I was shooting at the league at the 50 yard range and about half my bullets were hitting the target sideways and not necessarily where I was aiming. I'm assuming they were not bumping up correctly to fill the grooves. That's when I learned I could use this alloy for my purposes only if they where recently cast or I needed to find a softer lead. I did finish using this alloy but re-casted bullets on a need to use in the next couple of weeks basis.

This is exactly what happened in my situation. Ron and i cross referenced our lead hardness sheets that came with our Cabin tree testers and they are TOTALLY different, according to the sheet that came with my Tester (bought new 6 months ago) These bullets are 8BHN, according to Ron's they are 9-9.5BHN, In case any of you bought a Cabin tree lead hardness tester from the new Company your sheet is OFF

[johnson1942]

can i ask a stupid question? wouldnt it be easier to use pure lead? also when i swage with a stiff lip and a deep hollow base the bullet is going to bump up no matter what. i think this makes every thing simple and with out the hassel. just a thought.

[54bore]

can i ask a stupid question? wouldnt it be easier to use pure lead? also when i swage with a stiff lip and a deep hollow base the bullet is going to bump up no matter what. i think this makes every thing simple and with out the hassel. just a thought.

Roger, not a stupid question at all! I now see the key to making Idahoron's system work well with the Lee 500 S&W bullet is using PURE SOFT LEAD or very close to it, after my experience i personally would not advise hardening at all, UNLESS you are very familiar with it and have an adequate tester

[Good Cheer]

Yep, soft. That's what I ran up on with the .458 bore New Englander and the .52 bore Renegade.

[charlie b]

So, did you fire the 450gn PP bullets? Did they do OK in your rifle?

I was curious if you knew the drop on those at range. I have them on zero at 100yd (80gn Pyrodex select) and will try 200yd next.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[54bore]

So, did you fire the 450gn PP bullets? Did they do OK in your rifle?

I was curious if you knew the drop on those at range. I have them on zero at 100yd (80gn Pyrodex select) and will try 200yd next.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Charlie b, i stil haven't had a chance to shoot them, they are sitting here ready to go, our weather has been junk, rain, and more rain. I plan to group shoot them the next break in weather we get

[charlie b]

Thanks. I'll be taking mine out again this week so I will see how it goes.