Lead, tin, copper

[leftiye]

Is there anyone here who has information on how much tin and copper can be alloyed with lead? Lead will alloy with as much as 10% tin. copper and tin are very compatible (= brass). I'm curious about what happens when say 60/40 tin/lead solder is mixed with 6% copper, and then mixed again with lead 1 to 6. This would be 10% tin, 1% copper, and 89% lead. I know, the percentages are approximate, and might need further calculating, I did it in my head. Thanks ahead of time for any help. This should be a muy tough alloy if there isn't a reason not to do it (don't worry about the cost of tin).

[docone31]

I have also wondered that.
Tin makes the casting lighter, and harder.
In my mind, the addition of copper would also make the casting lighter, and harder.
Now, before the laughter, I am a goldsmith. One of the ways we can refine gold is by adding lead to the alloy. Lead and gold, for example are found in alloy naturally. Same with silver, and copper.
Because of the varying melt temperatures, it is a question of the lead absorbing the copper.
Years ago, I used to do a lot of soldering. The copper tip would through time, dissolve. I wondered myself, how to add copper to lead. Of course, what would it do?
Black powder needs, recquire a soft elemental, or near elemental lead. Smokeless loads. That is different.
I am not a lead specialist. I really never wondered ratios of copper to lead. I have, though wondered if the addition of copper, would be an aid in attaining velocity. My M77 Ruger loves solid copper projectiles.
If a person tossed a copper bar into molten lead, I imagine, it might just sit there for a while, possibly several millenia. Filings, or powder, there might be an absorption rate there. The powder will also face several issues. Oxidation, absorbtion, fluxing. Fluxing is an item there.
Could the tin, in melt stage, absorb copper, then transfer the alloy into the lead?
Now, from my experience in smithing of non-ferrous metals, lead will break down, under heat, any items it is exposed to. For example, lead soldering a jump ring on a silver, or gold neclace, not only is the ring useless, it cannot be melted and reused in a casting. The lead absorbs the alloy. Now, in refineing, inquartation, adding either silver, or copper to lead allows complete dissolveing in nitric acid. Is the reverse useable in making a lead alloy with copper to enable higher velocities unavailable to elemental lead, or wheel weight alloy?
If the copper could be initiated in the alloying, then the blend is possible.
To what benefit though?
I will be curious to watch this thread. I have wondered this for some years now.

[Cap'n Morgan]

You could try looking at:http://www.matweb.com/index.aspx

Click "Alloy Compositions" and expand "Non Ferrous Metals" Now you can pick your alloy after it's main 'ingridients' Choose an alloy, and click "Find"

There's some pretty interesting stuff under Lead Alloys. Adding a silver spoon to the melting pot could just be the ticket ;)

[copdills]

you might also try http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm good information here

[runfiverun]

1% copper would be all bout you could use for practical purposes.
the problem lies in the fact that copper cools so much faster that it will affect the pouring
of the boolit.
cooling before the mold is full.
an amalgum of copper,silver, "lead" tin,antimony, arsenic.
could be done easily enough with the amounts all in the .5 to 2 % range
and i would bet the final bhn would be quite high.
other small traces of stuff like indium could help also.

[leftiye]

Capn, thanks for the reference. It flat makes me feel dumb though. It seems to give all of the qualities in a range of all three metals, and though maybe I don't understand something it doesn't seem to give information for the specific alloy.

[leftiye]

Run5, That (copper cooling) was why I asked about alloying - and why I specified alloying the tin with the copper, and then the lead - because if it were in a true alloy, then the copper should not freeze separately from the other metals. And a phase diagram would really make a difference if there was one to be found.

[leftiye]

I made some of this alloy this afternoon by the process described at the beginning of the thread. 490 grains of copper went into 1 lb. of 60/40 solder with no problem, just what appeared to be a little ash on top. But when I added the pure lead (6 lbs.) I got a mush on top. Not much, but it would not stir in with a wooden stick. Nor would it stir in with a torch applied; though it seemed to decrease somewhat. At this point it seemed that the metals didn't actually alloy after all, but when I covered the very hot melt with crushed charcoal it appeared that the mush disappeared. I suspect that the top of the melt was cooling, and was cooler than the copper wanted to stay liquid at. In a bottom pour this might cast well. I'll find out tomorrow or the next day depending on what happens.

Without sohisticated test equipment I guess we're left to guestimates based on BHN, and penetration tests. When I've seen if I can actually get the stuff to cast I'll get a BHN reading on them. As they are still lead alloy, this will give us a guess as to how well they might obturate. Too hard and they probably won't obturate, and the purpose here is to find an alloy that will hang together at higher velocities than the pistol velocities usually used when expanding cast boolits are worked up. Not having any antimony in the mix might produce boolits that are still relatively soft. Guess I won't know until later.

Before someone jumps me about moderately hard 50/50 WW/pure expanding at moderate velocities, say 2000 fps, I am aware of this. I am just looking for something that is as much tougher as I can find. Probly to be shot as hunting loads at even higher velocties in paper patched loads with hollow point boolits. Something like a 350 grain .444, or a 300 grain .375-06 for instance.

[docone31]

I believe, the reason for the mush,
When I alloy gold, there is usually a very hard ball in the center of the melt. This is metal that has firescale. Fluxing will break this up.
Copper powder, is surrounded by firescale, or oxidation. Hence the mush at the top. As the oxides are released the alloying continues there is less seperation.
My thoughts on alloying, would be to sneak up on it. Blend the measured metals in tin, then 50/50, then the pot of WW. From there, crank up the heat, and stir. I would do this for a while to get distribution. From that point, the alloy should be stable and the temp can be brought down to casting temp.
I suspect primary fluxing might have to be acid fluxing first. Most of my high temp fluxes are acid based. There is a flux in the hardware stores that is muriatic acid based for lead fluxing that I have used quite successfully. A few drops and a good blend.
The issue with acid based fluxes is they are corrosive to ferrous metals. I am not sure how this would apply to a cast iron pot, but I can see where the Lee, or Lyman bottom pours could be compromised from too much acid fluxing.
Just food for thought.

[felix]

I think your suspecting of which flux to use is paramount, acidic or basic. The idea is to help control the combo of pour temp and mold temp. With all the junk metals we play with, there is no telling what will work. It seems to me, that if one can keep bismuth and copper together with a certain flux, that flux will work with the stuff we use. The problem is the RATE of temperature change. This comes from the literature on using various babbits in industrial bearing applications, giving rise to the validity of choosing a certain flux for that babbit flavor and pouring it directly into a "hole" for the bearing to be created in-situ. Apparently, there is no iron-clad way to keep exotic materials in 'solution' throughout the temp ranges need for our application. ... felix

[docone31]

I agree. I have seperated zinc out with temperature control.
Copper is an high heat metal, lead, tin are low heat metals.
Fluxes react differently with base metals.
It is the combination of processes, and the reactivity of the metals that will enable alloying. Percentages will also play a tremendous part. The order of alloying will also play a part.
An alloy is tough to seperate. Certain heat values can seperate alloys, called cracking. Acids can seperate alloys.
Now, experimenting with alloys. That can be interesting.
I do like the idea of mixing a percentage of copper to the melt. The question is, how much.
I would love to find the perfect alloy, one that could be pushed to jacketed speeds, retain mass, and expand perfectly upon impact.
Heh, heh, heh.
I think I will stay with paper jackets. I love the brain drain though, almost as much as a good cup of coffee. Heck, I am still haveing trouble with mold fillout. Can you imagine using an exotic alloy under uncontrolled conditions? I still have some zinc in my base melt I am still spooning out.
I just love playing with metals.
A person I knew wanted to swage copper bullets. He had a machine shop make some dies. He made a frame. He got an arbor press, 20 ton. He got some copper water pipe and beat it into a ball, then tried to ram it into his die. I am still laughing. "Did you anneal it? Did you melt it into a shape that might even fit into the die?" Nope.
He wanted to save money.

[felix]

Saving money is a joke. Either you want to play, or you don't. If you cannot afford to play, then pick another hobby besides those which require research and development for your enjoyment. In your situation, it seems to me that any jacketed boolit will work, be the jacket material be copper, paper, or just plain ol' motor-mica/baby-powder/any-dust. I prefer the latter because of the ease of application. ... felix

[leftiye]

Thanks guys. Like I said, I think the mush and oxides disappeared when I added crushed charcoal as a flux. I thought heat might have something to do with it (insulating value of the charcoal), but I had it much hotter when I tried to put it back into the melt with a torch.

Docone, could you give me a name or two of the fluxes you mentioned?

I suspect pretty strongly that I didn't know how to read the tables on the link that Cap'n Morgan supplied (or something). If anybody can make heads or tails out of it, please let us know. A source like that which gave single alloy characteristics would be priceless. As it is in the present situation, we only know how hard it is, and that it should be tougher than lead/tin/antimony alloys are.

[docone31]

I use from AlphaMetals
LIQUID SOLDERING FLUX
It really works quite well. I get it at Ace Hardware.
One or two drops and flux city.

[runfiveslittlegirl]

when fluxing antimony into my lead tin mix, i have used the flux from the antimony man.
but have also used marvelux it seems to work also.
it just isn't as fine grained, you may want to mix this in the other direction....
kinda like pouring oil into water, works one way and not the other..

another thought...... i wonder if water dropping would pull the copper to the outside
of the boolit,???

also i notice barnes uses a tin/ copper powder in some of their bullets
pressure formed??
or melted together under swaging??

also a bit of tin in the lead, to start the mixing, may help the transition like wetting the tip on a
soldering iron.

[felix]

another thought...... i wonder if water dropping would pull the copper to the outside
of the boolit,??? ........ no because the copper has already moved
from the center to the outside during the pour. The amount of which is dependent on the flux used, and the temps of the melt and the mold, as well as the percentages of whatever is in the mix.

also i notice barnes uses a tin/ copper powder in some of their bullets
pressure formed??
or melted together under swaging?? ........ yes pressure formed, and just maybe some 'melted' during the swaging process.

also a bit of tin in the lead, to start the mixing, may help the transition like wetting the tip on a
soldering iron. ........ yes, the amount of tin included in the mix seems to play a most important role.

You are pretty bright for such a young person. Keep your curiosity up at all costs. It will pay great dividends throughout your life, as well as bring your frustrations to the forefront.

... felix

[docone31]

In an alloy, hardening should not migrate any of the alloy components. Fluxing can, and so can the introduction of oxides. All hardening does, is modify the alloy, without altering it.
Cupellation will modify an alloy.
In any alloy, the materials will try to stabilize. If there is too much of a particular metal, that will migrate but the original alloy will be stable.
And yeah, definately keep asking questions. The more you ask, the more we have to think. Right now, I think like an engine that hasn't been run for years. It is firing, but #3, and #7 have not really engaged yet. The more I have to think, the more revolutions occur and the greater chance of those cylinders engaging. At least enough to see if they have compression.

[leftiye]

As for the copper/tin powder, I'd guess it might be sintered.

Docone, Is that "compression" what I feel when I'm stuffed up?

I cast some boolits with this alloy this evening. It is an absolute dream to cast! I only put two boolits back and that was for rounded base edges. It will frost, but only if your mold is too hot. I was towards the end casting at over 1000 degrees and the boolits were loverly! Sorry, no pictures, I don't know how to post them, and I threw the boolits all back at the end. I'll get my wife to help me with some pics of the next batch - she used to work for Word Perfect and is my compueter resource as I don't know much about them except that they are a pain in the patoot.

I cast some at 700 degrees at first, but as the previously mentioned mush had returned with a vengeance when I melted the ingots, I put some more charcoal on it and raised the temp and stirred it a bunch. Then I cast ten more, and did it again. For this round the temp was over 850 degrees, and most of the mush was gone. Finally I cast ten more at 1000 degrees. All of the mush was gone, leaving only ashes and crushed charcoal.

The first boolits tested at 8 on my Saeco hardness tester, this is about BHN 15. the second two groups tested at 9 on my saeco tester which id about BHN 18. I did it in three stages at various temps to verify that some or all of my copper was in the mush, and not getting into the boolits. Also to see how the alloy acted at the different temps to see where it cast best. Obviously, there was more copper and tin in the last two groups.

At BHN 18 right out of the mold, this stuff would seem probably to be good for quite high velocity if the tin doesn't cause "leading" (or tinning). If this problem rears its head, or if the alloy won't support higher velocities with accuracy, I'll paper patch the boolits. Also, if the expansion typical of lead alloys is typical here too (if they act similarly), it will take some pretty good impact velocity to cause boolits made of this alloy to expand. We'll have to do expansion tests, but I expect it's a pretty tough alloy that will hang together well.

[leftiye]

I guess we could always hollow point them, and cut an X in the nose!

[docone31]

I get that locked up feeling. Compression is when I am trying to do something stupid, or in a hurry, and it falls on me.
Gas is good.
The more we cut cheese, the more we combat global warming.
Whaaat?
It is simple, humans release hydrogen gas. No carbon, we only have one stomache. Cows release methane gas. They have two stomache chambers. Methane has in the molecle, one carbon atom. Humans release hydrogen. The hydrogen frees up the carbon atom.
The more we let go, the cooler we make our planet.
Putting a large amount of Jalepeno sauce on French toast before the maple syrup and haveing cucumber sandwiches with with peanut butter is actually a real solution to all this.
Beer is good too.

[runfiverun]

we could hollow point and cut an x in them........a lead triple shock....cool.
leftiye
a thought i wonder/bet they continue to harden over a month or so..
i am thinking your final may be 21 or so...
andsecond if they do can the tin/copper be cut in half, and w-dropped.
just some things to play with.

[leftiye]

I suspect that this alloy will neither harden with seasoning, nor heat treat as it has no antimony, and probly no arsenic to form crystalline structure. Further, the high amount of tin will inhibit hardening if there were anything to harden.

[runfiverun]

that makes sense i figured the water ould just cool tem quicker.
but i am not so sure about the timeline.

question??? since your temps are this high anyway, wonder if zinc would hold the copper in solution better?
or possibly help. i know they boolits would be extremely hard but.....
if you gotta way to h-point and scribe them to open???
weight control ,expansion ,and weight retention.
of course i am thinking on a bore riding spire type boolit for hunting here.

[leftiye]

Intrestng thought on the zinc. I've gotta admit that after all the bad press here about zinc contamination that I'm feeling prejudiced against it. But logic says it might be good as far as harder boolits were concerned. I think though that zinc makes boolits brittle? Does it have this effect when in trace amounts too? If silver were cheaper, I think I'd look at that.

[wiljen]

I know battery manufacturers use a calcium/magnesium alloy to remove bismuth from lead since bismuth is counterproductive and causes cracking. I got to looking at the process and wondering if adding magnesium to lead would work to harden it as magnesium has a melting point much closer to lead, tin and antimony than does copper or silver.

Has any research been done on Magnesium lead compounds?

[runfiverun]

isn't magnesium used to harden aluminum? i know scandium is but that is much too cost prohibitive..
i donot think that zinc is brittle in lead till you get quite a bit in there.
but something like 2%zinc and .50% copper would show results ,enough to show whether further testing would pan out imho, of course some tim would also be required.

maybe cut what you have in half and try some zinc.
what the heck.
leftiye.....if you don't have any zinc ww's i think ricky P still has some.

[leftiye]

Remember, this is about tough, not about hard. If I just wanted radically hard I might cast pure zinc. I've got some contaminated linotype (zinc or copper) that is BHN 28; and .5% tin, 5% antimony 94.5% lead will heat treat to BHN 42. I've shot this BHN 42 stuff, and it still leaves the light grey wash, even when coated with Master Lube (moly). Worked fine though at hot pistol velocities. As stated, it may already be hard enough to interfere with expansion.

[runfiverun]

that is part of why i am thinking along the lines of the least amount of hardening agents.
but still the highest amount of hard.
lotta lead to mush around. not brittle.

[leftiye]

Tough is about ability to bend without breaking, to take side force without shearing, and to take tensile pull without separating (better to stretch than to break). Lead itself suffers in the shear, and pull areas when by itself. Antimony just makes it worse in the bend area, and in boolit expansion this translates into shear and fragmentation. I may be wrong, but it looks like antimony, zinc, bismuth, and some others are of no value in this pursuit. And as said, hardness is itself either an enemy to expansion, or at the least a controlling factor.

[runfiverun]

you are gonna have to find long chain binding agents then.
stuff that will bind to more than one other element and the lead also.
it is either that or something that acts like the copper does and create a shell.

you may wanna leave the lead outta the equasion for a bit of testing to see what plays well together.

then make some decisions based on what you see............