Rossi 12ga handgun

[shoot-n-lead]

How do ya' like this?


https://youtu.be/fQR21EcH8Rs

[Texas by God]

Stupid on many levels.

[RPRNY]

Mossberg so bitter about the GCA.... Otherwise the Mossberg "Walking Dead Edition Zombie Apocalypse Mega Death 12ga Pistol" would already be out.


Oh, and as per TBG's excellent summary above.

[OptimusPanda]

This looks utterly impractical and absolutely giggle worthy.

[GhostHawk]

No THANK YOU. Not that young and dumb anymore.

.410 sure, 28 ga maybe, 20 ga I would have to be seriously pissed to pull the trigger.

12 no, not enough wrist for that here.

I can do the same thing with my H&R just not legally. Like I can what Uncle S thinks.
At least with a longer barrel and a stock you have a chance for that thing not to rear up and come back and knock ya on the noggin.

[Bzcraig]

No THANK YOU. Not that young and dumb anymore.

You and me both brother!

[NavyVet1959]

I fired a 12-gauge pistol grip pump just holding it in a single hand once before. It felt like it destroyed my wrist. This would be even lighter and I would hate to feel what it would do.

I also fired a 12-gauge polymer flare gun with a regular 12-gauge shell in it ONCE. It actually didn't have that much recoil since very few (if any) of the pellets went out the *front* of the barrel. But, yeah, it still kind of hurt, but it was a different kind of hurt...

[pietro]

.

Not for me, obviously - since only 5 were factory made or authorized. (Aftermarket conversions of longer smoothbore guns are a no-no)

They may be legal in Canada, but in the US, smoothbore handguns are generally illegal.

That said, if they were legally available in the US, I sure wouldn't be a customer for one, anyway.


.

[OptimusPanda]

Here you'd have to make this as an AOW.

[Drm50]

Looks like 5 years or $50000 fine, which ever comes first.

[NavyVet1959]

So, *if* you could get a manufacturer to sell you a receiver that had not been designated as rifle or shotgun and then *if* you could get a rifled slug barrel, you could legally build this as a pistol without paying the $200 ATF bribe ... err ... "tax" ... err ... unconstitutional infringement upon our 2nd Amendment guaranteed rights. That first "if" is going to be pretty difficult from what I understand.

One of the problems with typical rifled barrels with shotshells is that it tends to produce donut shaped patterns. A way around that would be to have a rifled barrel in which there was no twist in the rifling. You would still get the rifling marks on any slug that you shot (which is apparently why the ATF wants the rifling), but it would not impart a spin and thus when you fire shotshells in it, you would not have the donut shaped pattern.

[JimB..]

A way around that would be to have a rifled barrel in which there was no twist in the rifling.

I've wondered by Thompson Center didn't ever raise this option. As I understand it, they built the 410/45 contender barrels specifically for 410 and only rifled them to avoid the NFA issue. If they could have just used shallow and straight rifling they'd be better shotguns.

[RogerDat]

I recall when I was but a young'n there was a fellow with a bolt action 410 converted to a pistol seem to recall some complaints about recoil but not enough that they wouldn't shoot it. Can't imagine what real world use (beyond sinking plastic bottles) one could make of the 410 pistol, even less possible use for the 12 gauge pistol..... with a scope no less.

For accuracy and pleasure to shoot I would imagine that pistol would be about like slipping a 12 gauge shell into a short piece of pipe then taping a BB over the primer and slamming it hard against something to fire.

Howdah pistol in 20 gauge expresses well the range of a shotgun pistol, something attacking the basket on an elephant you are riding in is in range.

[actionpistol327]

Taurus and Smith both mm s make 410 revolvers

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[NavyVet1959]

For accuracy and pleasure to shoot I would imagine that pistol would be about like slipping a 12 gauge shell into a short piece of pipe then taping a BB over the primer and slamming it hard against something to fire.

The way you describe that scenario, it would probably be more pleasant to shoot than the 12-gauge handgun in the video. Your description makes it sound like you are slamming it against a fixed object (since you say "against something") and as such, you would not be experiencing the recoil.

Now, if you create a slam fire 12-gauge firearm where you use a piece of 3/4" sched-40 steel pipe for the barrel and a piece of 1" sched-40 steel pipe for the "receiver" (with an appropriate cap / plug on it), it still would not be as bad as the above 12-gauge handgun because the momentum of the moving receiver acts to reduce the recoil that you will feel. Plus, if the recoil is too much for your grip on the "receiver", it just slides out of your hand. That would impart a lot less force on you than the above handgun. :)

[mcdaniel.mac]

So, *if* you could get a manufacturer to sell you a receiver that had not been designated as rifle or shotgun and then *if* you could get a rifled slug barrel, you could legally build this as a pistol without paying the $200 ATF bribe ... err ... "tax" ... err ... unconstitutional infringement upon our 2nd Amendment guaranteed rights. That first "if" is going to be pretty difficult from what I understand.

One of the problems with typical rifled barrels with shotshells is that it tends to produce donut shaped patterns. A way around that would be to have a rifled barrel in which there was no twist in the rifling. You would still get the rifling marks on any slug that you shot (which is apparently why the ATF wants the rifling), but it would not impart a spin and thus when you fire shotshells in it, you would not have the donut shaped pattern.
Rifled barrel gets you away from AoW, but bore over .50 still requires a sporting purpose exemption to not be a DD.

[DanishM1Garand]

.

Not for me, obviously - since only 5 were factory made or authorized. (Aftermarket conversions of longer smoothbore guns are a no-no)

They may be legal in Canada, but in the US, smoothbore handguns are generally illegal.

That said, if they were legally available in the US, I sure wouldn't be a customer for one, anyway.


.

legal under federal law as an AOW with a 5 dollar transfer fee. State laws may prohibit NFA, mine doesn't if you have a stamp.

[NavyVet1959]

Rifled barrel gets you away from AoW, but bore over .50 still requires a sporting purpose exemption to not be a DD.

I wasn't sure about the destructive device... They mention shotgun shells in it not being subject to be a destructive device, but I wasn't sure.

On the other hand, you could make the shotgun shell just contain powder and no projectiles and use a barrel that has a .50" bore and hand seat the bullet into the rifling with the blank 12-gauge round behind it. A short section of .50 BMG barrel that has had the first 3" reamed slightly so that a 12-gauge shell will fit into it would work for this. From a practical standpoint though, you wouldn't need the full length chamber for all that powder and could get away with a pretty short 12-gauge shell.

[John Taylor]

My 12 ( 72 caliber) does not kick that hard. but then I don't use near as much powder. That's a 1911 on the bottom.

192580

[mcdaniel.mac]

I wasn't sure about the destructive device... They mention shotgun shells in it not being subject to be a destructive device, but I wasn't sure.

On the other hand, you could make the shotgun shell just contain powder and no projectiles and use a barrel that has a .50" bore and hand seat the bullet into the rifling with the blank 12-gauge round behind it. A short section of .50 BMG barrel that has had the first 3" reamed slightly so that a 12-gauge shell will fit into it would work for this. From a practical standpoint though, you wouldn't need the full length chamber for all that powder and could get away with a pretty short 12-gauge shell.
I keep the NFA handbook on my phone for reference, so I took the liberty of copying the relevant subsection:

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons. The second section of the definition states that any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. ATF has issued rulings classifying specific shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable forfor sporting purposes.[19]

Ref. [19] is to the Street Sweeper and similar gats. I would pay special notice to the bolded portion though, stipulating that shotguns and shotguns shells are exempted only as the AG finds them to be suitable for a sporting purpose. I suppose you could try to sell it as a hunting firearm, but I doubt it would fly.

[NavyVet1959]

I keep the NFA handbook on my phone for reference, so I took the liberty of copying the relevant subsection:

2.1.8.2 Large caliber weapons. The second section of the definition states that any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore diameter of more than one-half inch in diameter is a destructive device. This portion of the definition specifically excludes a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes. ATF has issued rulings classifying specific shotguns as destructive devices because they have a bore of more than one half inch in diameter and were found to not be particularly suitable forfor sporting purposes.[19]

Ref. [19] is to the Street Sweeper and similar gats. I would pay special notice to the bolded portion though, stipulating that shotguns and shotguns shells are exempted only as the AG finds them to be suitable for a sporting purpose. I suppose you could try to sell it as a hunting firearm, but I doubt it would fly.

Loaded with #12 shot for Texas mosquitoes...

Loaded with a slug as a backup for hogs.

[NavyVet1959]

legal under federal law as an AOW with a 5 dollar transfer fee. State laws may prohibit NFA, mine doesn't if you have a stamp.

$5 transfer fee, but $200 making fee...

[NavyVet1959]

On the other hand, there is the Thompson Encore. Assuming you had one with a pistol grip, you could add a 12-gauge rifled barrel to it. That solves the problem of the acquiring a frame that was not designated as a shotgun or rifle to start with.

[mcdaniel.mac]

On the other hand, there is the Thompson Encore. Assuming you had one with a pistol grip, you could add a 12-gauge rifled barrel to it. That solves the problem of the acquiring a frame that was not designated as a shotgun or rifle to start with.
Still has to be 18" from breech face to muzzle and 26" from stem to stern or it's a short barreled shotgun.

[shoot-n-lead]

Still has to be 18" from breech face to muzzle and 26" from stem to stern or it's a short barreled shotgun.

What about the .410 Derringer's?

Are they considered short barreled shotguns?

192591

[mcdaniel.mac]

What about the .410 Derringer's?

Are they considered short barreled shotguns?

192591
.410 is smaller than .50, and is not subject to the restrictions of being either a short-barrele shotgun or destructive device since the bore is smaller than .50" rifles and it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

On the other hand, a 12ga barrel is more than .50" bore, so if it's smooth ire it has to comply with the restrictions on shotguns (18"/26") and if rifled it would have to meet the sporting purpose criteria for being exempted from Destructive Device status, just like the 14.5mm target rifles.

Interestingly, anything shorter than a 18" barrel and 26" overall with a smooth bore is considered an AoW unless otherwise exempted, regardless of the caliber.

[NavyVet1959]

Still has to be 18" from breech face to muzzle and 26" from stem to stern or it's a short barreled shotgun.

I was just commenting on the problem of acquiring a frame that you could theoretically be used to legally create such a handgun. Finding a Rossi frame that was not sold as a shotgun or rifle would be more difficult.

[shoot-n-lead]

.410 is smaller than .50, and is not subject to the restrictions of being either a short-barrele shotgun or destructive device since the bore is smaller than .50" rifles and it was not designed to be fired from the shoulder.

On the other hand, a 12ga barrel is more than .50" bore, so if it's smooth ire it has to comply with the restrictions on shotguns (18"/26") and if rifled it would have to meet the sporting purpose criteria for being exempted from Destructive Device status, just like the 14.5mm target rifles.

Interestingly, anything shorter than a 18" barrel and 26" overall with a smooth bore is considered an AoW unless otherwise exempted, regardless of the caliber.

You might be wrong about this...says it has to be made FROM a shotgun...does not mention smoothbore or caliber.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;

[mcdaniel.mac]

You might be wrong about this...says it has to be made FROM a shotgun...does not mention smoothbore or caliber.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
"2.1.1 Shotgun
A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.[10] A shotgun subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length."

~~

"2.1.5 Any other weapon.
Firearms meeting the definition of “any other weapon” are weapons or devices capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive. Many “any other weapons” are disguised devices such as penguns, cigarette lighter guns, knife guns, cane guns and umbrella guns.

Also included in the “any other weapon” definition are pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels
designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

[Photos not attached]
H&R Handy Gun

Ithaca Auto & Burglar Gun

While the above weapons are similar in appearance to weapons made from shotguns, they were originally manufactured in the illustrated configuration and are not modified from existing shotguns. As a result, these weapons do not fit within the definition of shotgun[12] or weapons made from a shotgun[13]. The “any other weapon” definition also includes specifically described weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more but less than 18 inches in length from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading. The firearm most commonly associated with this portion of the definition is the Marble’s Game Getter."

Bore restrictions are under Destructive Device. I would urge anyone reading a legal document to ensure that they do not make the mistake of ignoring context, especially when discussing the legal definition of a thing.

[pietro]

What about the .410 Derringer's?

Are they considered short barreled shotguns?

192591



AFAIK, most (if not all) current .410 handguns are legal because they have rifled, and not smoothbore, barrel(s).

The fact that the chambering is a shotshell makes no difference; as it's the smooth bore that defines it.

.

[shoot-n-lead]

AFAIK, most (if not all) current .410 handguns are legal because they have rifled, and not smoothbore, barrel(s).

The fact that the chambering is a shotshell makes no difference; as it's the smooth bore that defines it.

.

Yeah, and that is what they were talking about back up the thread...rifled barrel...and I think that is the difference. Smoothbore would be a no go...rifled barrel could work as long as it is on a handgun serialized frame.

[BAGTIC]

I once asked BATF if there was a minimum depth of rifling or rate of twist and they told me it must be sufficient to stabilize projectile. That is pretty vague. I suspect the only projectile that would be recognized as stabilized from a zero twist barrel would be a round ball.

[NavyVet1959]

I once asked BATF if there was a minimum depth of rifling or rate of twist and they told me it must be sufficient to stabilize projectile. That is pretty vague. I suspect the only projectile that would be recognized as stabilized from a zero twist barrel would be a round ball.

The only reason to require rifling is so that any bullets recovered can be possibly matched with the source firearm. For that purpose, it doesn't matter whether the rifling has a twist to it or it is perfectly straight.

[Tackleberry41]

Rossi did sell a matched pair pistol, same sort of frame as the single shot rifles/shotguns they sold. BUT they were all 410/22, a 12 ga would not fit. The pistol had an extension that was part of the frame for a pistol grip to attach to. Last I heard they were gonna quit selling the single shots all together anyways.

Not sure what use there is for a single shot 12ga pistol, except ruining your wrists.

[NavyVet1959]

Not sure what use there is for a single shot 12ga pistol, except ruining your wrists.

And there we have the necessary "sporting purposes". :)

[benellinut]

Here's a 12 ga with a 8.5 inch barrel, it's NOT a AOW or NFA. There are other's out there.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/street-legal-short-barreled-shotgun-no-nfa-aow/

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/452ad6_4950556e9b6440b19d672c2a494b256e-1024x1024.jpg

[benellinut]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/short-barrel-no-hassle-black-aces/

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/black-aces-tactical-2477-400x300.jpg

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/black-aces-tactical-2476.jpg

[Texas by God]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/short-barrel-no-hassle-black-aces/

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/black-aces-tactical-2477-400x300.jpg

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/black-aces-tactical-2476.jpg

Would love to hear someone explain that gun to the Highway Patrol.

[NavyVet1959]

It still has to be 26+" long to be classified as just a "firearm".

With just a normal shotgun, you need an 18" barrel in order to keep it from being classified as a short barreled shotgun and it also needs to be 26+" long. That gives you 8" behind the barrel to work with on the mechanics of loading a new round into the chamber for a pump or semi-auto. It should be possible to do that with a bullpup design and you won't loose any velocity due to the shorter barrel like you would with the above "firearms".

[benellinut]

Would love to hear someone explain that gun to the Highway Patrol.

Just show them the ATF's classification

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/452ad6_d269cec5c7434210812bd886c18d235d-1024x1024.jpg

https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/452ad6_2d30b3c4e7d14141b4616f8f85efb853-1024x1024.jpg

[NavyVet1959]

Just show them the ATF's classification

Wouldn't matter... If you get one of the ones who doesn't believe in the 2nd Amendment and they want to harass you, they will. Their jackbooted thug attitude is to arrest you and just say that you can prove your innocence in court. Yeah, guilty until proven innocent... And, of course, they'll claim the Nuremberg defense -- "just following orders" or "just doing my job". That defense didn't work then and it shouldn't work now.

[BigEyeBob]

Friend of mine had a WWI German flare pistol sleeved to 12 gauge , I fired quite a few shots out of it and was surprised how comfortable it was . He usually used 00 buckshot , at 25 feet it would throw a pattern no larger than a dinner plate.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

.

Not for me, obviously - since only 5 were factory made or authorized. (Aftermarket conversions of longer smoothbore guns are a no-no)

They may be legal in Canada, but in the US, smoothbore handguns are generally illegal.

That said, if they were legally available in the US, I sure wouldn't be a customer for one, anyway.


.

Why would they have to make it smoothbore? I don't think the customers (and even latex-clad ladies with whips find a limited demand) would be overly concerned with quality of shot pattern.

I think it could be done legally, as can self-administered trephination of the skull with a holesaw, under local anaesthetic, which I am informed a small subculture of Americans do for recreational or spiritual reasons. It could be quite some time before you got around to wondering if it is better for anything than a conventional firearm.

[Tackleberry41]

Why would they have to make it smoothbore? I don't think the customers (and even latex-clad ladies with whips find a limited demand) would be overly concerned with quality of shot pattern.

I think it could be done legally, as can self-administered trephination of the skull with a holesaw, under local anaesthetic, which I am informed a small subculture of Americans do for recreational or spiritual reasons. It could be quite some time before you got around to wondering if it is better for anything than a conventional firearm.


I doubt the ATF could give any more than a shrug of the shoulders as to the reasoning on rifling a 410 pistol.

[Texas by God]

At last! Liquor store bandits get their own legal shotgun. Long overdue in someone's opinion.......

[DanishM1Garand]

At last! Liquor store bandits get their own legal shotgun. Long overdue in someone's opinion.......
Texans. :rolleyes:


My bedside gun is a Mossberg with a 14" bbl and a shockwave grip with an OAL of 26 1/4". Mossberg even sells these now. I had to build mine. If six rounds of 12 gauge 2 3/4 #1 buck don't get me out of my situation I likely needed a squad of Marines.


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh242/stephenbinion/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06/318A554F-5164-495E-BC68-5CA775543A5A.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/stephenbinion/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-06/318A554F-5164-495E-BC68-5CA775543A5A.jpg.html)

[Texas by God]

Oh you Ohioans & your sawd-offs.:kidding: I prefer a plain riot gun myself but that's just me. It's too hard for me to hit stuff with a whippet gun; I have tried them.
Best, Thomas.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you believe in restrictions on firearms type (and I suppose somebody must), it must surely be to reduce the harm done by firearms in crime. This one can't kill anybody deader than dead, and surely reduces the chances of the perpetrator firing a second shot in a hurry. Or perhaps ever.

[Texas by God]

My 12 ( 72 caliber) does not kick that hard. but then I don't use near as much powder. That's a 1911 on the bottom.

192580
Love the under hammer! Where are the sights?

[benellinut]

Oh you Ohioans & your sawd-offs.:kidding: I prefer a plain riot gun myself but that's just me. It's too hard for me to hit stuff with a whippet gun; I have tried them.
Best, Thomas.

I have a 870 with a pistol grip for a home defense gun, I found out quick it's not easy to judge point of aim from the hip, even at inside the home distance's, so I put a laser on it, problem solved!

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/Python002-1.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/Python002-1.jpg.html)
Here is something Giggleworthy.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/21052014001.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/21052014001.jpg.html)
And another.

[Hickory]

How do ya' like this?

There are people who own guns.
There are stupid people who own guns.
There are stupid people who own stupid guns.
And there are people who shouldn't own stupid guns.

My 2¢.

[Follow Me]

Surely this is photoshopped, it just can't be real. And if it is real, I would not want to be around when the EMT's and police started asking questions after the trigger was pulled.
Just my $.02.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think id like to have one. Make mine a 20 guage though. It would make a great gun in bird season cruising around on the 4 wheeler at camp in the fall. Be a decent home defense gun to boot. Even in 12 with some milder loads.