Poor little No1 mk lll

[Okie73]

I picked this up Saturday as a parts gun. Apparently bubba got busy with a welder years ago. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/8645c2fff4aa3ab7c5f872c7b976abbd.jpg


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[rondog]

Ew. Hope it was cheap!

[3006guns]

What in the name of Hortense's bloomers was he trying to do? Weld a peep sight on the barrel? Guy never heard of heat treatment I guess.

If there's no other damage, just jerk that barrel and replace it. There should still be some surplus ones around.

[Okie73]

$30 was cheap enough for me to drag it home from the show.


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[Okie73]

What in the name of Hortense's bloomers was he trying to do? Weld a peep sight on the barrel? Guy never heard of heat treatment I guess.

If there's no other damage, just jerk that barrel and replace it. There should still be some surplus ones around.

The receiver, bolt and magazine are the only things that are salvageable.
Bubba messed up everything else. :-(


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[Okie73]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170403/16c6e86a0d4becd363bd5a2eb1703adb.jpg

Just love the copper penny touch on the front sight.


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[leebuilder]

Sweet jebuss, I just barfed in mouth.
What ever works I guess.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

$30 was cheap enough for me to drag it home from the show.


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Oh yes, especially if nobody saw you. You don't mention the bottom metal and trigger, which would be a help - and of course people who do this kind of thing, and stay out of the nearest booby-hatch, don't put a cash value on their time and trouble. This one wants to be a classic 1920s sporting rifle when it grows up.

It isn't even a peepsight (too far forward) but a notch (too far back, and without the adjustment favoured by people fussy about where the bullets go.) Welding on the receiver would be a big no-no, but I am sure the Lee-Enfield doesn't depend on heat treatment in the barrel. The reason the No1 got a rear sight on a mechanically fitting barrel band was that the long Lee-Enfield, in the sort of use intended for it, heated enough to melt the solder on the sight, and depended on a screw until it froze again on cooling. Further back it probably got even hotter. So this one is well and truly annealed anyway. I doubt if it has distorted the chamber, although if it had, a SAAMI chamber reamer might not be large enough in diameter to clear up the military chamber. I would either do a Cerrosafe chamber cast or fire it by the piece of string method, and see if one thing or the other came out easily. If the barrel is good enough to use, it could easily be a better one than many No4 rifles.

[nekshot]

444 in the future or maybe 30-40?

[John Allen]

It sucks but cheap enfield parts are always a good thing!

[bouncer50]

Its look like a demilled rifle that they drill thru the barrel. Back in the old days if they had bad headspace or bad chamber they demilled them and sold them really cheap as wall hanger or as a lamp. Good old days in the 50s or till early 60s. With cheap surplus rifles working one were really cheap to buy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Its look like a demilled rifle that they drill thru the barrel. Back in the old days if they had bad headspace or bad chamber they demilled them and sold them really cheap as wall hanger or as a lamp. Good old days in the 50s or till early 60s. With cheap surplus rifles working one were really cheap to buy

That isn't impossible, but I don't think the intellectual in question was capable of welding up that hole undetectably. If he hasn't, and the chamber isn't distorted, it could probably be filed smooth.

One relegated to drill purpose only while in the British service would probably be stamped DP. most likely on top of the receiver ring. That could mean anything from dangerously impaired to a perfectly usable rifle, depending on how little they needed that model at the time. Those for schoolboy cadet corps could be deactivated, those for drilling soldiers not. You could hardly dare expect a better 1897 long rifle than I once saw with DP on it.

[bob208]

looking at the "weld" I don't think he got it hot enough to do any real damage to the barrel other then making it look bad. I have used more heat spot welding muzzle breaks on barrels.

[higgins]

If the magazine is in good shape, it's worth what you paid for the rifle.

[Bloodman14]

Just more proof that some people should not be allowed to have guns. That is a crying shame.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Ahh..yet another museum quality example of indigenous rural American gunsmithing!

[Okie73]

If the magazine is in good shape, it's worth what you paid for the rifle.
That's what I thought.

[Okie73]

looking at the "weld" I don't think he got it hot enough to do any real damage to the barrel other then making it look bad. I have used more heat spot welding muzzle breaks on barrels.
The gentleman that I purchased it from said he never fired but was told that it had been in use.
I bought it as a project knowing that the barrel was highly suspect.

[Okie73]

Ballistics in Scotland

The trigger/guard are serviceable.

[Gtek]

If the bore and chamber are "usable", I would be tempted to grind off close, uncork barrel and find a lathe just cause I would have to see. I sure would not want to ride on or be around the farm implements he (Bubba) has fixed. It appears he was not one with the Mig or was welding outside of the window. Everybody knows the best stitch is between two and five adult beverages, front side your too stiff and backside too much swing!

[OptimusPanda]

Looks like a candidate for rechambering to me. Unless you could easily get a new barrel, stock, handguards, rear sight, and nosecap. 444 Marlin does sound kinda fun.

[mcdaniel.mac]

If it were me, I would save the useless parts and turn them into a Mad Max-esque wallhanger. A few parts from a hardware store would stand in for a fake bolt and receiver, a fake magazine could easily to glued together, or you could ask around and see if anyone has a trashed AR mag you could use.

[3006guns]

You know, I agree.........you easily got your money's worth in parts with that rifle. In fact, there's enough to build a decent little "behind the pick up seat" gun and that's always a good thing! :)

[Hardcast416taylor]

Forend stock bands and their screws are pretty difficult to find anymore. Same can be said for bottom metal mounting screws. Magazines always bring good money if original. Safe to say you could recoup your $30 in selling the rifle for individual parts, bolt and magazine will bring that amount and more.Robert

[Okie73]

So what other cartridges work well in the Enfield without much of a headache? I've seen mention of 444 Marlin and 30-40.
Is 45-70 possible?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Forend stock bands and their screws are pretty difficult to find anymore. Same can be said for bottom metal mounting screws.

That is why I suggested a sporting rifle. Most people wouldn't want to alter an original in good condition now. But building up a non-original battle rifle that looks original, when you don't have a battle anyway, sounds needlessly conscientious.

.45-70 has been done, with conflicting opinions on how easy it is to get good feeding. The .444 Marlin, or something smaller calibre based on the .444 case, is probably easier. Then there is .303... About the only other cartridge I know which actually was used in early Lee-Enfield sporting rifles, including some of very high quality, was the .375x2½in. Nitro Express. It can be made from the .444, or a little and probably harmlessly under length from the .303 or .30-40. Is there anybody so dead to imagination that he has never wanted a rifle named nitro express?

[NikA]

If that barrel is trash to you and at least 3/4" in diameter for at least an inch in front of that ugliness (as well as being 16+" long), I have a project in mind that I could use it for. I'd gladly pay shipping and part of your purchase price for it.

[ulav8r]

I built one in 30-40 Krag. While at CST I bought one that did not have a barrel, came with an 03A3 2 groove barrel that was not installed. The seller was a Canadian, so I convinced him he should fit and chamber the barrel because he would be exposed to many of them when he returned home. I then reassembled the parts, worked on the trigger pull and refinished the stock. Feeding did not pose any issues, it worked with no adjustment needed. That rifle was sold as soon as completed as I had no interest in it. It had no capabilities that my .308W did not have. I used the profit to purchase other guns or parts. That was probably in 1975.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Special Interest Arms used to do 7.62x39 conversions, in addition to the .45ACP DeLisle conversions. X39 especially if it used AK mags would be a hoot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Incidentally TJ's make a bore liner for the .30 Luger, available also through, which has a 10in. twist, .303 land, .311 groove and ½in. outer diameter which should be fine for the .303.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/637/1

The .30-40 should work very well in the Lee-Enfield, but the only real advantage is in the use of a commonly available barrel blank. Ammunition and brass are actually harder to get in most places. There is a possibility that some future owner will fire .303 ammunition in it, but Canadians used to do that as a matter of course. This would definitely have been unwise in the Krag, but I think it was in the 1895 Winchester, and I never heard of any mishaps.

[Multigunner]

The .303 shoulder is further forwards than that of the .30-40. .303 brass can be used for .30-40 handloads but you have to set the shoulder back first.

[BigEyeBob]

The BSA catalogue of 1912 lists the BSA sporting rifles in 303, 256 mannlicher,7x57(Rimmed I would think) and a 8x57 cartridge ,the 8mm I believe was the dutch rimmed cartridge but Im not sure on this.
Then there was the no4 pattern in 375 x2 1/2 " Flanged Nitro Express , but these were all mainly on the earlier Lee Metford actions .No reason why you couldnt rechamber the mkIII to any of the above . Im buliding a 375 x 2 1/2 at the moment on a LE1 action ,lack of funds is holding me up , Ive already done the magazine conversion to a 4shot job ,need a chamber reamer and a front sight ,probably end up making both .A bloke in Sth Africa has developed a 416 cartridge from a necked up 303 case I believe or maybe it is the 405 wincase cant recall which .405 win would be good or a 303 necked to 35 or 375 cal ,lots of options .Im using 405 cases for my 375 2 1/2 " FNE.
A fellow I worked with had a mkIiii in 45/70 and was a good rifle , I almost managed to convince him to sell it to me but he came to his senses and decided to keep it .

[Okie73]

I just looked and JES can do 35-303 rebore. Anyone have any experience with having this done?

[Wayne Smith]

I just looked and JES can do 35-303 rebore. Anyone have any experience with having this done?
Talk to the Aussies, pretty standard for them.

[m.chalmers]

Is that a weld or a pool of solder? If solder, file it off an the barrel is still good.

[Okie73]

Is that a weld or a pool of solder? If solder, file it off an the barrel is still good.

Its a weld.

[Multigunner]

I would not consider a barrel with that big and sloppy a weld to be worth the investment of re-boring. Even if the chamber didn't swell somewhere down the line its likely the harmonics are way off.

It would be only a little more expensive to find a worn out take off barrel and have it rebored, far less work and less hassle in the long run. There may be a member here who could contribute one for the project.

You should first check how deep the rear sight cross pin hole is. If too deep a rebore could cut through at that point.
I chopped a NOS SMLE barrel once because the cross pin hole had been double drilled leaving a furrow that nearly cut into the bore. I chopped it to make sure no one else ever tried to use it. I remembered a commercial sporting rifle blowing off its rear sight due to a too deep dovetail cut. A micro fracture that would have never been a problem otherwise found a shortcut to the surface. According to the post mortem at least.

I once considered building a 6.5X57 on a No.4 action, but the maximum pressure of that cartridge is a tad high. OAL is also just a smidgeon more than the No.4 could handle unaltered. I could still have done it but as a handloading proposition only.

I also did a few tests on cartridges that the No.4 could feed and eject.
The 7X57 works fine in an unaltered No.4, despite being rimless. It would probably work in a SMLE as well though I'd be careful of the pressure levels of modern commercial ammo.

Fact is though the .303 is still the best cartridge for a sporter Enfield, though I can see where a heavy .35 would come in handy for Elk and other very large bodied game.
Too bad India won't export their .315 sporting rifles built on the SMLE action. Be nice if the barrels at least showed up for sale.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'd agree that if a barrel is to be taken off and rebored, you might as well do it with another barrel you know to be unimpaired by welding. But I'd just stick with this one if the chamber and throat are good. The chances of anything else being wrong are very low.

I doubt if larger diameter bullets give a worthwhile improvement in performance on game over a heavy bullet .303. Where they might have some advantage would be if use primarily with cast bullets is intended. The .375 cartridge would have a shorter bullet with a fairly long bearing surface, and could have slower twist rifling.

I believe the .315 version currently made in India is actually the old Austro-Hungarian military 8x50R. I don't see this cartridge as a desirable one. It is very large in diameter, entirely wasted when you can't load it to more than SMLE pressures, and it has an undesirably short neck. I think the most likely explanation for its use is the extreme unlikelihood of illicit ammunition or convertible brass being found in India. I wouldn't be surprised if they use the standard .303 bore dimensions.

The British proof houses (curious government-approved but self-appointed institutions) approve rebarrelling of the No4 Enfield to 7.62x51, but not the SMLE. If you use a commercial barrel the 6.5x53R is probably a better conversion than the 6.5x57, although with this one too, you probably ought to keep the loads more moderate than you could in a stronger rifle. It can very easily be made from .303 brass. It was once a very popular sporting and long-range target cartridge in the UK, although it was normally used in box-magazine Mannlichers. Here is a 100 yard group made around 1900 by St. George Littledale, the explorer of Tibet.

[Multigunner]

"It was once a very popular sporting and long-range target cartridge in the UK, although it was normally used in box-magazine Mannlichers"
Some Dutch Mannlichers were converted to .303. A nice looking carbine with muzzle break. Apparently the Dutch enbloc clip can handle the .303 without modification.

The large bore game cartridges based on the .303 case have a following.

Around here even the Black Bear are smaller than anywhere else, and most Whitetail are also smaller than deer found in Northern states. A .303 is overkill on almost all game below the Mason Dixon Line.

[LaPoint]

You've heard of a "Rat Rod?" That Bubba built "Rat Rifle!"