Grouping size for hunting

[LAKEMASTER]

For 100 - 200 - 300 yard hunting, what would you consider accurate enough?

My friend uses a load that pushes 2200 fps and yeilds 3" @ 100 yards.

He hunts in an area where you lose visibility @ 75 yards.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

that's about the same as I do with my sks, and same hunting conditions, I think it is fine. a pigs heart is probably 4"

[LAKEMASTER]

We tested 18 @19 grains of unique today.
18 gave me 4" @ 50 yards. 19 was 5/6"

17 grains seems to be promising for my gun

[LAKEMASTER]

I might try 4198 for longer distances

[Texas by God]

List your cartridge and boolit and help will come. For me, 3" at 100 yds would limit me to 100 yds.
Best, Thomas.

[LAKEMASTER]

I was looking for a generalization of accuracy moa.

[Digital Dan]

For 300 yard chipmunks I'd recommend no more than .25 MOA.

It's hard to evaluate that with a .45-70 since the holes are big on paper and measuring a one hole cluster is problematic.

What are you hunting and what cartridge are you using?

[Cowboy_Dan]

I was looking for a generalization of accuracy moa.

MOA may not be the best standard, per se. It really depends on the size of your target. My thinking is to find the distance at which you can reliably group about 3/4 the size of the vitals of your quarry. That is your maximum range with that load.

[jhalcott]

I put apaper plateat the farthest range I will shot at game.if I miss, I move thetarget closer. When all 5 shots stay in the plate, that is the range IWill hunt with that load.Itts different for rifles and handguns.

[quilbilly]

An 8" paper salad plate for deer. With iron sights my old eyes can't get a good sight picture much beyond 140 yards and that is in the morning when they are fresh.

[white eagle]

generally I like 1/2 to 3/4"@100 yds
often settle for 1"though

[runfiverun]

need to keep things In perspective.

a 45 colt shooting 5 shots all but touching in an X shape is a 2" group.
2"s doesn't sound too impressive but shoot that same group with a 223 and it's 1/2".

I find hunting loads work a lot better for me if I simply have confidence in the load/rifle to hit the target.
I don't sit and shoot a lot of groups at 300 yds but I will shoot our 8" swingers with my hunting rigs at that distance.
I know if i need to keep a bullet in a deer's boiler room that far out I can settle in on my walking stick, a rock, or a tree branch and put one in there with 100% confidence.

doubting the shot or looking for the hit will cause more misses than settling in behind the rifle, focusing on the sights, and working the trigger with confidence.

[popper]

Close as you can get to MOA @ 100 & verify decent group at 200, 200. With all the 'other' stuff going on in the field and a 4" target area (pig, deer, bear, etc.). Less accuracy lets you track more if you want. I prefer not to.

[Drm50]

For me on LV deer guns open sights, reciever sights 4" is what I go for. These same rifles with
scopes will do less than 2" at 100yds. My bolt gun/ scope are in 1" or less at 100yds, most
sighted 1 1/2" hi at 100yds. There are a lot of rifles that won't do this, no matter what the load.
If they don't preform they go down the road. A off the rack common rifle is not worth the time
or expense to make it shoot. Rifles are like cars, you buy 10 identical, one is a lemon, one is
target grade, and the rest are mediocre.

[toallmy]

Doing some tests in the field builds confidence and will show you what you can really do at different ranges . I have set sticks with paper plates tacked to them around the farm I hunt , then climb into my stand to put a few rounds on them this is still a stress free test so consider the stress when really shooting at game . By the way when the wind blows my stand moves to .

[Larry Gibson]

For 100 - 200 - 300 yard hunting, what would you consider accurate enough?

My friend uses a load that pushes 2200 fps and yeilds 3" @ 100 yards.

He hunts in an area where you lose visibility @ 75 yards.

With cast bullets in rifle cartridges for hunting deer size game I have, in the past, restricted myself to 200 yards max range. I also prefer as much terminal performance as is practical with cast bullets. For that I prefer a softer cast bullet (usually COWWs + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead) pushed to 2000 - 2200 fps. I usually also slightly HP the 30 - 375 Cal cast bullet with a 1/8" HP to 3/16" deep. That allows for reasonable expansion and excellent terminal ballistics out to my self imposed 200 yard max range. With that I usually use medium to slow burning powders in the 4895 to 4831 range. I prefer to have 2 moa or less accuracy at 200 yards with the 1st six or seven shots out of a clean barrel (or fouled with not more than 2 shots). That accuracy criteria has proven entirely sufficient over the last 30+ years I have been hunting with cast bullets.

However, the last few years has seen an improvement in cast bullet performance. I am now able to achieve 2500 - 2900+ fps with cast bullets by controlling the RPM and maintain 2 moa accuracy out to 300 to 400 yards which is where velocity drops to a level of diminished terminal performance. So far tests of several cast bullets designs in well soaked newsprint at 300 yards have demonstrated the high terminal potential at those increased ranges the higher velocity provides. Also the testing has disproven the theorized bullet disintegration and lack of penetration some speculate at. Tests have shown, for example, a 311041 at 2600 fps retains 1600+ fps and 1000+ ft lbs at 300 yards. That is entirely sufficient. The NOE 30 XCB bullet cast of #2 alloy at 2900+ fps holds together at 50 yards with through and through on 12" of wet pack and gives some expansion at 300 yards with 14 - 18" of penetration in wet pack. Limited results of actual performance on big game such as deer, etc. has shown that cast bullets at those velocities do not "shatter" as many have guestimated they would.

Anyways, bottom line is 2 moa at the farthest range probable is my criteria.

Larry Gibson

[tdoyka]

it depends,

if i used my 444 marlin with 275gr ranch dogs on deer, it will go to 200 yards.
if i use my 6.5 creedmoor or 270win with 120gr and 150gr bt on deer, it will go 300 yards.
if i use my sbh in 44 mag with 250gr mihek hp on deer, it will go 25 yards.
if i use my 20 vartarg with 32gr varmadeggon on varmints, it will go 350+ yards.

for deer using cast boolits will be 6" at 200 yards. i use a 275gr rd that goes 1/2 - 3/4" at 100yards(5 shots with a tc encore).
for deer using jacketed bullet will be 6" at 300 yards. i use a 120gr bt(6.5cm) that goes 1/4 - 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots with a tc encore)
for varmints using a jacketed bullet will be 1/2" at 100 yards. i use a 32gr varmadeggon that goes .2" at 100 yards(5 shots with a tc encore)

for deer using my revolver will be 6" at 25 yards. i want to get it at 50 yards, but 25 yards is good enuff for this disabled guy:lol:.

[Sur-shot]

I have one bottom line objective, develop the best loads possible, always, shoot those loads in the best rifle possible, so when I leave the bench to go afield I have absolute confidence in the gun and the load. My equipment or loads rarely miss, I take care of all the missing all by myself.
Ed

[tdoyka]

I take care of all the missing all by myself.
Ed

missing? missing? i know of no missing...yes, i tried to shoot that limb, so i could save the buck ...er..yeah, for next year!!!:kidding:

:lol::lol::lol:

[KYCaster]

MOA may not be the best standard, per se. It really depends on the size of your target. My thinking is to find the distance at which you can reliably group about 3/4 the size of the vitals of your quarry. That is your maximum range with that load.


Cowboy Dan has the correct answer.

Jerry

[kobeinu]

The paper plate method with a 1' circle (or oblong sorta thingy) has worked for me for years. I put them up at 50, 100, 200 and 300 yds. If I can hit or knick the plate I am satisfied. I am usually exactly where I want to be from 50-200 in or near the circle. Further out is where I start to call knicks good but then I am not going to shoot at anything that far where I hunt. Ever.

[54bore]

I strive for 1" groups at 100 Yards from my rifles, if i cant get an inch i sell it and buy another. I handload and have done so for 30 years, i can usually find a rifles 'sweet spot' within a few loadings, seating depth, etc. I have only had a few rifles out of MANY MANY that i got rid of.

[psweigle]

I like the way cowboy Dan explained it. Can't really argue with it.

[RU shooter]

just because a load/gun combo can shoot good bench groups don't mean nothing in the woods or field . Get yourself a good load on the bench and shoot offhand or sitting or kneeling as you would if your taking a shot at an animal . See what range you can keep every shot in a 9" paper plate target less is better imo .

[Dan Cash]

At whatever range you can consistantly maintain 3 inch 5 shot groups from a field position is your max range. Does not always have anything to do with your gun or load.

[white eagle]

a bench group tells you your load and ammo are dialed in
confidence in the field about your equipment goes along way

[Snow ninja]

Yep, cowboy dan is right on.
My rule of thumb has always been for rifles anything I can cover with my fist (around here I don't have anywhere I shoot over about 150 yards, and that's a stretch). For a defensive handgun, if I can keep all my shots at a quick/rapid fire pace within a paper plate I'm happy.

[barrabruce]

Well by the look of it most of you should be getting medals in the cast bullet benchrest nationals :D

I'll settle for a consistent on demand 1 1/2 to 2" 10 shot group at 100 yrds than a lucky 3 or 5 shot 1" or less "best" group out of ten.

It don't matter much to me as I only take the shot if I'm able to place the round where I want it at the time.

So what we all have to let a few go because or range or weather ...shaking to much.

Seems there seems too much shooting these days instead of hunting and stalking.

I get my long range fun at the range.

Makes me wonder how do you all do it so well with out a range finder and doping the wind etc.

Is hunting just setting up a sniper hide these days and taking a shot.

In that case I can shoot more steel and paper critters and have the same feeling as I can shooting game in a life time.

Ha......

[dverna]

I use jacketed bullets for hunting. I want no more than 1.5 MOA from the load. My current .308 load is about .75 MOA.

I still hunt or use a blind. Maximum range is determined by factors that affect my ability to make the shot. Shooting position, target profile, wind, brush etc. It can be as short as 50 yards or up to 400 yards.

[DougGuy]

I set my preferences at tennis ball size group. I want to know within the space of a tennis ball where that boolit is going to strike on game. My M77 in .308 will put 3 into a guitar pick @ 200yds, and I have taken game to 340yds and hit within 1/2" of POA. So if I have a 300 ~ 350yd shot on game that is standing still, I can confidently take that shot.

With a revolver, same tennis ball size requirement. This limits me to roughly 50yds and less from a comfortable rested position against a tree, sitting with my wrists on my knees, or sitting in a tree stand.

[LAKEMASTER]

In my bowhunting days, i forced myself to shoot. Within 4" up to 40 yards.

I personally feel 4" even@ 200 yards is more then deadly and humane...

Granted, i wish to have 2k MV

[Tailhunter]

Just depends on the weapon. I have a .308 and a .223 that if they won't give me a .5 inch at any given time, I'm pissed.

With my lever guns an 1.5 group and I'm happy. If you are into the 4 or 5" area you had better shorten your distances up.

I always strive to put each bullet into the same hole. Some of you guys that are happy with minute of pie plate need to rethink things.

[LAKEMASTER]

Just depends on the weapon. I have a .308 and a .223 that if they won't give me a .5 inch at any given time, I'm pissed.

With my lever guns an 1.5 group and I'm happy. If you are into the 4 or 5" area you had better shorten your distances up.

I always strive to put each bullet into the same hole. Some of you guys that are happy with minute of pie plate need to rethink things.

.5 @ 300 yards?

Doubt my 64 year old gun will do that

[badbob454]

that is .5 at 100 yards, or 2'' at 300 yards, it think is what he meant 1/2'' minute of angle at 100yds or 1'' at 200 yds or 2'' at 300 yds

if i cant get under 1'' at 100 yards on the bench i will work it until i can .... , change powder load, or different bullet.

[shafer44]

1/2" groups are nice to have, but I agree that you mainly need to be able to hit the vitals size target at some range and use that range as your max.

[Norske]

I volunteer at an indoor rifle range(www.rrrmc.com (http://www.rrrmc.com)). The range has a "dime club" meaning 3 shots at 100 yards off sandbags can be completely covered with a dime (.7"). I've shot the largest bullet diameter that's done it with my 358 Winchester BLR and cast bullets. Others of mine include two 22-250s, a 6.5X55 (Tikka T3), 300 Savage (Savage 99). The dime covering the outside of the group was picked to encourage shooting. How accurate does a game rifle need to be? 2/3 of the deer I've taken were killed with a single shot from a Ruger 257Roberts that's a 1 1/2" rifle. I ambush deer like a bow hunter, and have shot no more than 3 at ranges over 100 yards.

[Iowa Fox]

My goal is clay birds at 100 from a rest. I try to shoot 50-100 rounds per week for practice to get there. If I can't hit almost 100 percent of the time I need more practice. I don't have anything new so I know the loads and the firearm are up to it.

[ole 5 hole group]

Every rifle I own will give me between 0.250" and 2" groups at 100 yards benched all day long. Those same rifles in my hands can also miss a gallon jug at 100 yards off-hand without much of a problem on some days.

I've been known to gut shoot an antelope going Mach II at about 250 yards and I've missed a prairie dog mound at 700 yards in windy conditions - diameter of mound was maybe 14' - ya feet, not inches.;)

A 3" rested group at 100 yards is good to go when going after anything coyote or larger - In my opinion a 10" group at 100 yards rested will get the job done in a riflemen's hands on deer.

[tdoyka]

Idea makes me wonder as I recollect a thread about a guy who was discussing the use of "low powered" loads in a 44 mag handgun for hunting,,, I believe 240-260 grain bullets at 1050 fps. -what I think skeeter did with "heavy duty 44 special"- as being unethical for hunting...

that could be me, i use a 44 mag in ruger sbh(4 5/8" barrel) and i use a 250gr mihek hp(1:40) and 7.0gr of unique in a 44 sp. right now i can hit a 6" circular piece of steel at 25 yards(one handed). i have 280gr wfn gc(lyman #15) that i have to try, using unique/44 mag brass. for banging steel/deer it will be 25 yard shot, maybe even a 50 yarder, but i will see if a 280gr/unique keyholes or not.

i'm only using my sbh one handed because i'm disabled(stroke). i used to be able to do a 2 hander/shovel handle about at 2 1/2" at 100-125 yards.

[JohnH]

Off a rest? Standing on your feet? Sittin' on your rump? My first muzzle loader deer I shot at ten yards. It was late afternoon, I was sitting on the ground about 25 yards in a pine thicket from a trail coming off a steep hill. I was dozing off (that nodding, snapping awake, nodding, awake thing) when i heard a noise behind me. The young fella had come down the trail, got right on me, spooked and turned to figure out what I was (big mistake) I swung the musket with me as I turned, shouldered it and fired. Group size had nothing to do with anything. That CVA Hawken will at 50 yards from a sitting position (butt on the ground) group at about 3" depending on how often I swab the bore between shots. Cartridge guns I shoot into half that at that range when sitting. Standing on my hind legs I'm about a four inch shooter at 50 yards with irons and with a scope am good to about 100 for 6", this with rifles I shoot 1 1/2" to 3" groups at 100 yards with off a bench. I've killed about 30 deer in some forty years of hunting. I've shot 1 at a measured 225 yards, one at 80 and all the others have been at 50 and less, the average something like 35 yards. I've shot 'em with jacketed bullets and cast alike, from sitting on my butt to standing on my hind legs to having a perfect rest on the window ledge of a shooting shack. While I would argue that there is no such thing as accuracy which you can't use (it's impossible to be too accurate) I think we overemphasize accuracy and sacrifice ability. A gun/load combination that will shoot sub MOA groups is useless if you can't hit with it. Over the course of the year I will shoot from both sitting and standing positions with the load(s) I intend to hunt with. The farthest distance I can reliably (90% or better) put everything into a 7 inch high x 9 inch long target (round the corners with a coffee can lid) is my person farthest distance. Standing, it's about 100 yards. Sitting about 140. Bench, further than I'll shoot at a deer. But considering the realities of my hunting experience, group size is far less important than my ability to put the first shot where I want. I have a 44 Mag Rossi that puts it's first shot anywhere from 3 to 5 inches away from the main group, but so long as I don't let the barrel cool completely off it'll shoot all I can hold with it's ironsights. The gun will not go hunting with me. I have an 1893 sporterized Mauser that will regularly shoot 4-4 1/2" groups at two hundred yards off the bench with peep sights. I shot my best 8 pointer at 20 yards with this rifle on a very slow walk down a shallow drainage. He was feeding, walking toward me from my left. I raised the rifle and waited and as he stepped out from behind a tree I slapped him. There was a hole through the thicket of scrub trees and brush about half the size of a basketball. At the short range a rifle that wouldn't shoot half as well would have done the job, but had I been using a handgun I'd have felt it would take all my ability to have made the shot and at 25 yhards i can shoot 4" all day with my Ruger 45 Colt Blackhawk. So my hard answer to your question is "all the accuracy you can wring out of your gun, and then know what your honest ability is under the conditions you're shooting at the moment of truth.

[kobeinu]

I always strive to put each bullet into the same hole. Some of you guys that are happy with minute of pie plate need to rethink things.

I absolutely agree with the first sentence quoted above.

I wholly disagree with your last sentence quoted above.

[54bore]

I have always shot for 1" Groups out of my rifles