question about 32 acp sizes?

[mistermog]

So I have a kommer model 4 that I got on a whim a few years ago and got a hankerin to reload some 32 acp for it (7.65marked on the slide) and i slugged it and bullet came out to be .307....

Looking around .312 is normal 32 acp? Wow... is this real, what did i stumble into here? Anyone else seen 32 acp go so small?

[JWFilips]

My French MAB Model D slugs .309 But I still shoot .312 in it

[dondiego]

If .312 boolits won't chamber, try a .309 or 310 sizer on them.

[Outpost75]

.32 ACP barrels vary greatly. I have seen them everywhere from .307" to .315", but a, .312 works in most.

[gwpercle]

I never measured the bore of my Walther PPK. The Lyman manual said to use mould 311252 - 77 grain or 313249 - 84 grain and size them .309 . I bought the 77 grain mould and had the .309 sizer for 30-06 , 30-30 and 7.5 Swiss , so used it . Somehow the loads worked fine with 2.0 grains of Bullseye ! Back then there was no computer, no internet and I only had a yardstick to measure things with and the old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook .
I just checked the latest Lyman Handbook ...it says to size them .309 and still shows those same two boolits for loading. Not much has changed.
Gary

[Outpost75]

My Walther PP is .309, both my Berettas are .312, my Colt M1903 Type III is .311, I use .312 cast bullets in all of them. Measuring jacketed bullets on factory ammo I have, Norma is .307, WW2 Geco and modern RWS are both .309, WW2-era Remington-UMC .312, WW2-era WRA .312, modern Fiocchi, Hornady and Magtech bullets are all .312.

[mistermog]

Wow these little guys are all over the map.

[gwpercle]

My Walther PP is .309, both my Berettas are .312, my Colt M1903 Type III is .311, I use .312 cast bullets in all of them. Measuring jacketed bullets on factory ammo I have, Norma is .307, WW2 Geco and modern RWS are both .309, WW2-era Remington-UMC .312, WW2-era WRA .312, modern Fiocchi, Hornady and Magtech bullets are all .312.
WOW ! talk about all over the place.

[mistermog]

So there's no problem using .312 in a .307? Lead or fmj?

[JWFilips]

Lead!

[Guesser]

My Walther PP, 1965 vintage; performs really well with .309 cast bullets. I never did slug it since it worked so well with my first try of the .309 castings.

[GooseGestapo]

I've used .311 for decades.
Even find it works for .32S&W up to.327mag.

[Texas by God]

Wow these little guys are all over the map.

And they still shoot accurately in my experience. Every one I've owned. My PP shoots .307 Privis and Outpost's .312 lead hammers into little groups.

[mistermog]

Interesting... why is oversize so bad in every other caliber except 32s? Heh my old h&r swL is a .311. That'd be .004 over the acp?

[reddog81]

Interesting... why is oversize so bad in every other caliber except 32s? Heh my old h&r swL is a .311. That'd be .004 over the acp?

What do you mean?
Ideally you want .001 or .002 over bore diameter if shooting a lead bullet. Most 32 ACP guns are small pocket sized guns shot at 5 to 10 yards. At these distances even a a poor fit bullet can get a 1 to 2 inch group which is good enough. Going .005 over isn't a good idea but it'll work.

[Outpost75]

Throat size! NOT barrel groove diameter!

With CIP chamber nearly all .32 ACPs will do best with .312", with min. SAAMI .3105-.311"

Two-inch, ten shot groups at 50 feet are typical for decent pistol such as Colt M1903, or Walther PP with good ammo.


I had custom barrels done for my Beretta pistols using Douglas .308" groove diameter barrels with 10" twist and min CIP chamber set up to headspace on case mouth which shoot 1" ten-shot groups at 25 yards off sandbags.

[reddog81]

How's do you measure throat size in your autoloader? The vast majority of people go for .001 or .002 over "bore diameter" which is often times incorrectly referred to as groove diameter.

Tight groups are definitely possible but very rarely do I see anyone shooting handguns at 25 yards much less small 32 ACP's

[rond]

My Frommer gets .311 along with the rest of m .32s.

[Outpost75]

How's do you measure throat size in your autoloader? The vast majority of people go for .001 or .002 over "bore diameter" which is often times incorrectly referred to as groove diameter.

Tight groups are definitely possible but very rarely do I see anyone shooting handguns at 25 yards much less small 32 ACP's

Read the sticky on making a pound cast.

[35remington]

Actually too often people here and elsewhere say "bore diameter" when they really mean groove diameter. Bore diameter is land to land. Groove diameter is groove to groove. Of the two groove diameter is the larger dimension.

0.001 to 0.002" over "bore diameter" will produce a drastically undersized bullet that will not reach the bottom of the grooves.

Outpost's preferred dimension of "throat size" very well may be larger than groove diameter and often is.

[35remington]

Bore diameter versus groove diameter definition:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/3/15/terminology-bore-diametergroove-diameter/

[JWFilips]

Fatter is better! When it comes to cast!

[dondiego]

Well, I am fat, and I cast, that is good to know!

[Boolseye]

My CZ 70 slugs at .308", I size to .309" and they shoot great.
I'm going to size to .311" from now on though. Better neck tension, some cases are loose, others are fine. Don't know why there's so much variability with .32 acp cases!

[Outpost75]

Here is velocity test of jacketed bullets of different diameters in .32 ACP with same +P powder charge of 3 grains of AutoComp, measured with RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #0 in Starline cases with Federal 200 primers. This load is absolutely NOT for Beretta Tomcats or Keltecs, because you WILL crack frame, but is OK for sound STEEL FRAME Colt M1903, Beretta M1935, CZ27, CZ50, Walther PP.

DO NOT use in older Savage, original Remington 51 or any light alloy frame!

Ammunition ______________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”____Beretta M1935 3.4”

WW2 Geco Steel Cased 74-gr. FMJ__907 fps, 14 Sd_________977 fps, 11 Sd
WW2 WRA 73-grain FMJ__________923 fps, 28 Sd_________1001 fps, 15 Sd
RWS 73-grain FMJ______________896 fps, 29 Sd__________981 fps, 16 Sd
Buffalo Bore 75-grain LFN________883, fps, 6 Sd__________997 fps, 7 Sd

Hdy85XTP.312” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__853, 23 Sd______976, 8 Sd
Hdy90XTP.309” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__868, 12 Sd______968, 17 Sd
Nor93FMJ .307” LD#0 3.0 AutoComp+P__856, 6 Sd_______933, 11 Sd

Water Jug Expansion Test of Hdy 90-gr. XTP .309"(left) and 85-gr. XTP .312" (right) with 3.0 grains AutoComp, fired from Beretta Tomcat with 2.4" barrel. FOR STEEL FRAME GUNS ONLY, my Beretta Tomcat FRAME CRACKED after firing several hundred of these loads! I still use them in my Beretta 1935, Walther PP and Colt M1903 Type III, after replacing the standard .32 ACP recoil spring with heavier-duty Wolff .380 ACP equivalent replacements.

192817

[OuchHot!]

Thank you very much Outpost! You just got me going on another project. Your Sd are pretty nice.

[mistermog]

Interesting. I slugged my kommer and picked up a cz70. They slugged 307 and 308 respectively. My h&r 32sw long slugged at 311.

[GhostHawk]

Well I know I am raising this thread from the dead. So be it.

Looking hard at a Vz 70 from Classic Firearms at 200$.

Will start with 100 rounds of PPU ammo pretty reasonably priced same location, and a spare mag.
Whole package with shipping and FFL will put me about 5$ over 300. Seems like fun to me.

https://www.classicfirearms.com/czech-made-cz-70-pistol-32-acp-semi-auto/

I have a Cz-52 in 7.62x25.

I'm thinking I will really dig this almost brother in .32acp.

https://cdn.classicfirearms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/580x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/h/g/hgn-cz-70-p_2_web.jpg

[mattw]

My CZ 70 slugs at .308", I size to .309" and they shoot great.
I'm going to size to .311" from now on though. Better neck tension, some cases are loose, others are fine. Don't know why there's so much variability with .32 acp cases!

32ACP cases do vary a bunch. US makers tend to make the brass thinner than European manufacturers. I only have 2 32ACP's, a CZ70 and a Kel-tec P32. I have settled on .3105 to .311 as my goto diameter. The CZ70 slugs out at a little over .309 and the Kel-tec is a very roomy .311. To deal with brass variances I have 2 size dies, both Lee. The first is a standard size die and is used on the Euro brass and some newer W-W brass. The second is a -.002 sizer that I use on most US brass, this allows them to have a reasonable amount of neck tension on the smaller diameter cast boolits. I sort my brass by headstamp and load by boxes of the same headstamp. I have become very fond of G.F.L. (Fiocchi) brass, it holds up well and seems to be more consistent to me.

The CIP chamber is tighter and the lead in is much shorter to non-existant when compared to the few US chambers I have had the chance to look at. It is my belief that the CZ70 really needs the lead in increased a small amount to allow for proper chambering of any boolets with a forward driving band. But, this could be the fault of my one CIP chambered example gun. Otherwise the CZ70 is heck of a nice pistol, aside from the DA trigger.

[gun_slinger_boy]

I'd like to resurrect this thread to offer my experience and help anyone that may find this post searching the internetz. I've reloaded many different calibers with many different bullet types for over the past 10 years+ and this is what I've found to be the case with 32 ACP. Problems with reloading this fun little cartridge will come down to either bullet diameter or case thickness (so basically both). You either need thin case thickness with a wider bullet diameter or a thick case thickness with a thinner bullet diameter.

I load 78gr cast PC bullets that mic out at .313 with Fiocchi brass that I've had for a long time. All from the same lot. This brass is visually and tactilely much thicker than American brands. If I tried to load the bullets at .313 they will not even come close to chambering in the Vz61. Wouldn't even get a quarter of the way in. That's because you can clearly see the coke bottle effect (bulge) on the case when using it in the European brass. A .313 bullet is simply too wide for this particular brass.

When first starting load development I quickly saw what was happening and knew that the bullets would have to be sized down. I started with .311 and nothin doin. .310 and still a no go. .309 was workable but still sticky on extraction of completed rounds. So it ended up being sized down to .308 for them to feed and extract flawlessly. I've never slugged my chamber/bore because I found what worked but this leads me to believe that the VZ61 or at least MY 61 has a .307 bore. We also know that European ammo tends to use smaller diameter bullets in some of their calibers.

And on my last note I'll talk about crimp. This too is also very important especially if you have a tight chamber. Even sizing the bullets down to .308, without the proper crimp it still has the tiniest bit of stickiness. This is exacerbated by the fact that you should (at least I do) flare your necks a bit more than for a jacketed bullets when using PC bullets to preserve the powder coat. There is no mystery to a proper crimp for an auto. In autos the crimp is for cleaning up the flare and NOT for bullet retention. In fact if you apply too much crimp it can allow the bullet to both set back and or jump forward slightly. A properly seated bullet should take several good wacks with a kinetic puller to come free even with zero crimp. Simply look for the SAAMI specs of the caliber you're loading and use that! For 32 ACP the case should measure .337 (maximum) right at the case mouth. I like to set mine to .336-.335 for added feeding reliably. There should be very little to no evidence of a crimp on your bullet if you pull it.

I hope this may be of some help to someone someday roaming the web in search for answers.

[JWFilips]

Interesting... why is oversize so bad in every other caliber except 32s? Heh my old h&r swL is a .311. That'd be .004 over the acp?

Well Don't know where you heard that but that is bull crap!
I shoot over size in all my cast bullet guns ! Pistol & rifle!

[warren5421]

I have 2 Bertta 1935's and 2 Colt 1903 Model III's that I shoot at 25 yards, good days off bench 2"-3" per magazine but bad days 5"-7". I carry one of the Colts from paints on, to paints off. My Colt is loaded with 2.2 gr Red Dot, Winchester small pistol primers, cast lead Hunter Supply 76 gr FP sized to .313, OAL .943. See: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?395937-Coyote-%96-0-32ACP-1

[Green Frog]

There was a recent thread somewhere discussing the fact that in some circles the International Precision (Bullseye) shooters are going from 32 S&W L wad cutters to 32 ACP. I have to wonder what land and groove diameter those guys are using, and the bullet diameter of the highly accurate factory ammo and reloads they are using would be(?) Those guys are shooting tiny groups at 25 (and 50?) meters, so you know inherent accuracy has to be a good primary concern. Are any of you, our forum readers, participating in such activities, and would you be willing to share and enlighten?

Froggie