Smith 625 question

[Dpmsman]

I've decided to try competing with my 625 Smith. Being the original double action trigger pull was fairly heavy I decided to order a wolf spring kit. I installed the reduce powered mainspring along with the 13 pound trigger rebound spring. I'm sure you guys know where this is going. I tried some of my reloads with CCI large pistol primers and they won't fire, primers are too hard. Then I tried some federal match primers and still had one that needed a restrike. I really enjoy the trigger pull with the Wolf spring kit installed and would like to try and make it reliable. So my question is how do I make this revolver reliable without putting the original mainspring back in? Would a bobbed hammer help or hurt?

Thanks Jon

[Outpost75]

Bobbed hammer will further reduce striker indent and make problem worse.

Try the original mainspring with the 13-lb. rebound spring.

Are you cleaning and uniforming primer pockets? Seating primer in a dirty pocket cushions the firing pin blow if marginal.

How are you seating primers? With a hand tool or in progressive machine?

If primer is not fully seated to bottom of pocket to position the anvil legs firing pin blow is cushioned as it tries to finish seating of primer.

Try Remington 2-1/2 or Federal 150 primers.

[30calflash]

All above good. CCI, at one time, had the hardest to fire primers.

After a trigger job my S&W smith would run a cylinder full of CCI primed cases thru to make sure they all went bang.

[Dpmsman]

Bobbed hammer will further reduce striker indent and make problem worse.

That was kinda what I thought. I was reading another thread here and someone mentioned bobbing the hammer might speed it up.

Try the original mainspring with the 13-lb. rebound spring.

I reinstalled the original mainspring and can't tell much difference in the trigger pull with the 13-pound rebound spring from being full Factory.

Are you cleaning and uniforming primer pockets? Seating primer in a dirty pocket cushions the firing pin blow if marginal.

This I will admit I have not tried yet, I'll have to see if this works. Not want to sound like I'm lazy but I can't picture myself cleaning all the primer Pockets after every firing. But I will give it a try none the less if it works I might have to start.

How are you seating primers? With a hand tool or in progressive machine?

I seat the primers with the Press. I use a Lee classic turret press so the primers should be fully seated.

If primer is not fully seated to bottom of pocket to position the anvil legs firing pin blow is cushioned as it tries to finish seating of primer.

Try Remington 2-1/2 or Federal 150 primers.

I did try the Remington two and a half but they were about like cci's in hardness.The firing pin barely dimple them.

[Dpmsman]

Is there a way to get more tension on the Wolf spring. Maybe a longer tension screw?

[9.3X62AL]

If the OEM hammer spring enabled reliable ignition of CCI primers, then I think you have your answer via Oupost's text. NONE of my S&W revolvers have aftermarket springs installed. Period.

[Char-Gar]

The Smith and Wesson DA sixguns in 45 ACP have a longer hammer throw that others N frames Smiths. Couple this is the clips which absorb some of the blow and you can see what your problem is. These revolvers need a pretty robust spring to overcome the design difference and set off the primers. I take it you have a spring that is designed for N frame of any caliber.

You can try 45 Auto Rim cases and that would probably be a help, but like others I am not a fan of after market springs in the Smith and Wesson DA revolvers. None of mine have them.

[Dpmsman]

If the OEM hammer spring enabled reliable ignition of CCI primers, then I think you have your answer via Oupost's text. NONE of my S&W revolvers have aftermarket springs installed. Period.

You might be right. The revolver is a 625 JM. A newer Smith. I have a few older Smith's and the triggers on most of the new ones don't come close. I have a 624 with an amazing factory trigger. I'm just trying to give myself a little help in competition.

[9.3X62AL]

You might be right. The revolver is a 625 JM. A newer Smith. I have a few older Smith's and the triggers on most of the new ones don't come close. I have a 624 with an amazing factory trigger. I'm just trying to give myself a little help in competition.

I get that. Gun game arms are a different calculus than that used in self-defense venues. "Failure to ignite" is a PITA in any application, though.

[Dpmsman]

The Smith and Wesson DA sixguns in 45 ACP have a longer hammer throw that others N frames Smiths. Couple this is the clips which absorb some of the blow and you can see what your problem is. These revolvers need a pretty robust spring to overcome the design difference and set off the primers. I take it you have a spring that is designed for N frame of any caliber.

You can try 45 Auto Rim cases and that would probably be a help, but like others I am not a fan of after market springs in the Smith and Wesson DA revolvers. None of mine have them.

I bought the Wolf type 2 reduced power mainspring shooters pack. This kit includes a 13lb, 14lb and 15lb trigger rebound Springs. It was not frame or caliber specific.

[Outpost75]

16 lbs. is standard for a postwar N-frame. 18 lbs. was standard for the US M1917.

[JSH]

Leave it as is the way you set it up.
Go to cylinder and slide and get one of there longer firing pins, problem solved.
I will get a misfire once in a great while on CCI primers.
As mentioned if you clean primer pockets and fully seat by hand all is well. I am not playing any race games, so I still use my progressive and do it all on there.
Jeff

[Loudenboomer]

X2 on Federal Primers

[dubber123]

The newer MIM parts are a bit lighter in my experience, and will produce more misfires compared to their older forged counterparts. I competed with a MIM gun for years, and just used a full power mainspring with a reduced power rebound for reliability. If you need "just a little more umph", slip a fired primer cup over the end of the strain screw that presses against the mainspring in the grip, this will increase spring rate a bit.

[Dpmsman]

The newer MIM parts are a bit lighter in my experience, and will produce more misfires compared to their older forged counterparts. I competed with a MIM gun for years, and just used a full power mainspring with a reduced power rebound for reliability. If you need "just a little more umph", slip a fired primer cup over the end of the strain screw that presses against the mainspring in the grip, this will increase spring rate a bit.

I'll give that a try. I also ordered a longer firing pin from cylinder and slide. Hopefully with these two mods it'll be 100 percent reliable.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Polish rebound slide, maybe lighter rebound spring - I don't care much for reduced mainsprings on any firearm. I have a(an?) 686 - extremely smooth and light, also 1917 and 1937 .45's, all smooth. There are usually many other places to smooth and lighten the trigger feel depending on the weapon. Lots of dry firing, action cycling helps the gun and the shooter - snap caps or practice dummies should be used. If it don't go bang it's not a firearm.

[imashooter2]

Federal primers are a must for lightened competition revolvers.

The Wolff "Power Rib" springs have a formed recess on them. The tip of the strain screw often seats into this recess causing misfires even with Federal primers. Place a fired small pistol primer cup over the tip of the strain screw and your problem will go away. Going much under 7.5 pounds DA pull requires a lot of work to get reliability.

Take the extended firing pin out of your gun. They aren't needed and they break easily. If you choose to keep it in, carry the factory pin in your range bag. It will save the match for you when the C&S pin fails.

[lotech]

I use Auto-Rim brass in two 625s and the light strikes have been eliminated. I use CCI large pistol primers exclusively.

[Dpmsman]

[QUOTE=imashooter2;3998269]Federal primers are a must for lightened competition revolvers.

The Wolff "Power Rib" springs have a formed recess on them. The tip of the strain screw often seats into this recess causing misfires even with Federal primers. Place a fired small pistol primer cup over the tip of the strain screw and your problem will go away. Going much under 7.5 pounds DA pull requires a lot of work to get reliability.

Take the extended firing pin out of your gun. They aren't needed and they break easily. If you choose to keep it in, carry the factory pin in your range bag. It will save the match for you when the C&S pin fails.

Thanks for the tip on the extended firing pin. If the spent primer trick doesn't work with my existing firing pin I'll give the extended firing pin a try.

[Dpmsman]

I use Auto-Rim brass in two 625s and the light strikes have been eliminated. I use CCI large pistol primers exclusively.

Auto Rim brass would probably work great but it negates a speedy reload.

[Plate plinker]

Federal primers. +1
beyond that I had a gunsmith buddy do mine. Don't recall what he used, but it is butter.

[9.3X62AL]

Auto Rim brass would probably work great but it negates a speedy reload.

HKS makes their speed-loader sets for the 45 Auto Rim. Re- and de-moon-clipping is a chore I prefer to live without.

[Dpmsman]

Well I tried the spent primer trick and so far it's worked. I will admit it has increased the da trigger pull weight some but I guess there's no free lunch. Anyway thanks for all the advice.
Jonathon

[imashooter2]

HKS makes their speed-loader sets for the 45 Auto Rim. Re- and de-moon-clipping is a chore I prefer to live without.


For competition, there is no comparison between moon clip and HKS speed loader reloads. For the range, there's RIMZ moon clips.

[imashooter2]

Well I tried the spent primer trick and so far it's worked. I will admit it has increased the da trigger pull weight some but I guess there's no free lunch. Anyway thanks for all the advice.
Jonathon

If you want to get lower pull weights with reliability, the first thing to do is shed some hammer weight. Cut the spur way back. You need to get back some of the speed you lost to the lighter springs. The 625 in my avatar runs just over 7 pounds and goes bang every time with Federals. Frankly, taking a couple of pounds more out of the pull weight would not be moving me to Master. [smilie=1:

[JSH]

Interesting in put on the C&S firing pin. I shoot around 500-1000 rounds a year is all in my 625. Have a couple of buddies that travel a bunch, I know one of those guns sees an easy average of 5000 rounds a year in matches and that's not including practice.
Have not talked to them in a year or so, never heard of them having an issue yet.

[imashooter2]

I broke 2 in a 7 pound pull revolver and then sold the free replacements that C&S sent me. The first one killed my match. The second one I swapped the factory pin back in and finished. That pin is still in the gun through 40 - 50,000 rounds.

Pop over to the Enos forum and see the high regard they hold those pins in...

[Murphy]

Just my 2 cents worth. While all of the above answers are good, there is one other route you may want to try.

Cylinder endshake also comes into play when dealing with light hammer hits, or reduced spring power. I've owned numerous S&W's over the decades and have always enjoyed tinkering with them. I fully understand those who avoid changing out any factory springs. Installing an endshake bearing is pretty simple. It will set your cylinder back a few 1000th's toward the recoil shield. The bearings come in several thicknesses. Most common is the .0002 thickness. You can find them on Brownells, or Ron Powers. Also, several sell them on Ebay (not that I care that much for Ebay). Just food for thought.

Murphy

[44man]

Is there a way to get more tension on the Wolf spring. Maybe a longer tension screw?
No. The spring will bottom against the grip frame and can't go more. I have posted many times about hammer springs. I shoot SA and go the other way with over power springs since a weak spring will destroy accuracy. A primer needs struck hard.
I understand about DA where you want less pull but it still stands that a primer needs struck.
I shot IHMSA many years and as soon as I stopped hitting I would change the hammer spring, bought them by the dozen from Ruger but poor springs. I went to Wolfe over power variable springs. I use a 26# in the SA and if a revolver shoots a rifle primer it needs a 28#.
For SA the metal work and trigger spring is worked and I get down to 19 oz with a strong hammer spring. I ran into trouble with Ruger's and BFR's with light triggers, found the transfer bars were too short so I made my own, longer to stay on the firing pin.
I know you want to shoot DA but the release of the hammer is shorter then SA so you have less hammer travel. To look for a primer that is softer is not an answer. I use Fed primers for everything anyway and have taken them to near 60,000 psi.
S&W balances springs to work together and gets it wrong now and then. Cylinder stop spring can be too light.
Use the Wolfe rebound spring but put the S&W hammer spring back in. Keep the strain screw tight.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Federal primers (if you can get your hands on some) and lengthened firing pin should do the trick. My preference is also the Cylinder & Slide but Apex makes on and I think one other but any should do.

I shoot revos in USPSA & IDPA as do a few of my buddies. One almost exclusively shoots 625 JM.

[Sakoluvr]

Is the strain screw all the way in? Try adjusting it in if you can.

[Dpmsman]

Yes, it bottoms out in the frame. There's room inside the frame for the spring to be tightened further but the screw will not go in any farther because it bottoms out in the frame. Kind of hard to explain maybe I'll take a picture of it tonight.

[9.3X62AL]

Yes, it bottoms out in the frame. There's room inside the frame for the spring to be tightened further but the screw will not go in any farther because it bottoms out in the frame. Kind of hard to explain maybe I'll take a picture of it tonight.

Make certain also that some shade tree hacksaw expert hasn't filed down the tip of the strain screw. The usual sign of such butchery is a tip that is other than perfectly square, or has finish removed from the entire tip. Normal wear to the finish on these screw tips is at the tip edge & perimeter.

[RugerFanOH]

Make certain also that some shade tree hacksaw expert hasn't filed down the tip of the strain screw. The usual sign of such butchery is a tip that is other than perfectly square, or has finish removed from the entire tip. Normal wear to the finish on these screw tips is at the tip edge & perimeter.

I purchased a 625 through GunBroker that had received a "custom gunsmithing job" and the same thing happened to me, dreaded sending the revolver to S&W, purchased a replacement screw from Midway and turns out they had filed a significant portion of the screw. After replacing the screw, it never misfires! I saved a couple of hundred dollars to have S&W fix it. The screw is only $1.99 plus shipping. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/781378/smith-and-wesson-strain-screw-s-and-w-625-627-629-686-round-butt

[9.3X62AL]

I saw a couple dozen of these file jobs done to S&W revolvers over my years as a rangemaster at work. More than one gunrag scribbler has written about these surgical procedures, and whenever we saw misfiring revolvers we just rejected them for service and issued the deputy a Model 64 x 4" that DID work. If the deputy wanted his/her personally-owned revolver returned to service, he/she had to have the work done by a certified S&W armorer to restore it to service, and bring the letter from the vendor advising same. On a Department-owned firearm, the carrying deputy got 3 days off without pay for damaging equipment. Almost always, the modded strain screws were found accompanied by clipped rebound slide springs. Same rule for Wolff springs in a personal or Department revolver--all OEM, or all bad. Exspurts need not apply.

[imashooter2]

There is a world of difference in setup between a revolver to be used for self defense and one optimized to play a game.

[RugerFanOH]

Whomever wants to play a game can use a Nerf gun, hobby or competitive firearm target practice is to improve your accuracy if you ever need to defend yourself or a family member. Even if you will only use a firearm for competition, you want it to go "bang" when you squeeze the trigger...

[Dpmsman]

Make certain also that some shade tree hacksaw expert hasn't filed down the tip of the strain screw. The usual sign of such butchery is a tip that is other than perfectly square, or has finish removed from the entire tip. Normal wear to the finish on these screw tips is at the tip edge & perimeter.

The 625 was purchased new by me and I have not messed with it till now. I just changed springs nothing more. No hacksawing.

[imashooter2]

Whomever wants to play a game can use a Nerf gun, hobby or competitive firearm target practice is to improve your accuracy if you ever need to defend yourself or a family member. Even if you will only use a firearm for competition, you want it to go "bang" when you squeeze the trigger...

The 625 in my avatar has a 7 pound DA pull. That comes from moderate polishing, a Wolff 14 pound rebound and a home bent mainspring. It also has 20-30,000 rounds through it since it last went click instead of bang.

Now that record beats a whole lot of daily carry semi-autos, but there is no way I would carry that gun for self defense. It is set up to play USPSA and ICORE. It's a toy with hugely reduced tolerance for error.

We are all adults and everyone is free to do as they wish. Me? I like playing gun games and I stopped pretending games were training a long time ago.