Musket debut

[peter72]

A couple of pics from the debut outing of the musket.
Had fun but it was a bit frustrating. The flint was striking the frizzen near the top, I was lead to believe it should be in the lower half? Shots were at 25 paces with 55gns Wano 2p and a .614 PRB. This is only my second flinter but man, do I flinch.
It annoys me as I know nothing bad is going to happen, doesnt help that I had a LOT of missfires, not flash in the pans, but flint issues. Im all ears to any ideas or what you can see Im doing wrong
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170325/ed5e14f169f2e1b19be218a04904d5e5.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170325/1dc14d45f55070e7ea7436e0af9f3c34.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170325/6e1beaabbe479e7186f61f0a540b6d36.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[54bore]

Nice looking gun! The 'Flinching' part is what holds me back from trying a flintlock, my fear is it would start a bad habit? But the more i think about it, if you can shoot a Flinchlock you should be able to shoot anything!?

[rancher1913]

flint might be a bit long, can you seat it any deeper or try a shorter one. hopefully rfd chimes in, the rifle I got from him shoots like a dream.

[mooman76]

I don't know much about flint but hope to getinto it some day. The flint should be closer to middle or maybe lower half like you said but there definately shouldn't be those gouges you are getting. Hopefully someone will chime in that knowes more than me.

[curator]

Peter72,

There is a bit of a learning curve to shooting any flintlock firearm. Yours is a "Trade Musket" with a military size lock. These usually have a heavy cock-spring and being smooth bore aren't expected to be extremely accurate. The pictures of your frizzen may indicate that it is a bit soft or your flints are not positioned correctly. Flint selection is very important. You don't indicate what you are using and how it is held. A "cut-agate" flint would inflict this kind of damage particularly if positioned incorrectly. A good "English flint" that was too long and not striking at the correct 50-60 degree angle would also gouge the frizzen face. Find a muzzle loading rifle club in your area and go to one of their shoots. There should be a few old hands at flintlock shooting who will give you some pointers on flint selection and positioning.

As far as the flinching problem, a good pair of machinists safety glasses with side protection will keep the hot flash and stray particles out of your eyes so you can train yourself to keep your eyes open while practicing good follow-through. This and dry-firing with a wooden "flint" will improve your shooting tremendously. Until you master your flinch, you won't know if your gun can shoot accurately.

[waksupi]

Does the flint point at the center of the pan when in fired position?

I'm thinking your frizzen may need hardened. That's a lot of wear for just a few shots.

[Eddie2002]

I'm with Waksupi on the frizzen needing to be hardened, those gouges shouldn't be there after only a few shots. I had the same problem with a Silier lock I put on a pistol, it wasn't hardened properly, got some gouges on it and wouldn't spark. I re-hardened it by heating it cherry red and cooling it in automatic tranny fluid. I first tried used motor oil but it was too thick and didn't cool the frizzen quickly enough.
A shorter flint would also help, the flint is smacking the frizzen about a 1/4 inch high which is causing the gouges and flipping the frizzen over before it can scrape a good spark.
I stopped using store bought flints and instead use a gritty yellow chert flint that I knap for my self. I picked up a nice chunk of the chert flint at the Alifia Rendezvous two years ago from a trader and spent a few days figuring out how to knap the stuff. Still can't make them as pretty as store bought but they throw sparks like a 4th of July sparkler.
Just for the record, I still flinch a little when firing my rock lock because I shoot my right handed rifle as a lefty. ;)

[stubshaft]

You can use Kasenit and a torch to reharden the frizzen.

[rfd]

You can use Kasenit and a torch to reharden the frizzen.

you know where it's for sale? long been discontinued. some folks like cherry red, others wish it was kasenit.

[rfd]

A couple of pics from the debut outing of the musket.
Had fun but it was a bit frustrating. The flint was striking the frizzen near the top, I was lead to believe it should be in the lower half? Shots were at 25 paces with 55gns Wano 2p and a .614 PRB. This is only my second flinter but man, do I flinch.
It annoys me as I know nothing bad is going to happen, doesnt help that I had a LOT of missfires, not flash in the pans, but flint issues. Im all ears to any ideas or what you can see Im doing wrong


Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk


that frizzen looks like it's been toasted.

[varsity07840]

Your flint is too long. The gouge in the frizzed is from the flint hitting it head on instead of at an angle. That will also destroy flints
very quickly.

[curator]

varsity07840 sees what I did. A frizzen needs to be the right hardness to allow small chips of steel to be scraped off its face. If a flint hits at a 90 degree angle it will gouge a properly hardened frizzen's face. Angle is everything. Unfortunately the OP did not include a picture of his cock & flint setup so we could give the advice needed instead of speculating. Years ago when my former students would call me up about a similar problem, I would flippantly say " hold it up to the phone and I will take a look at it." Today someone can actually do it. The OP needs to give enough information (good photo) for us to really help.


Your flint is too long. The gouge in the frizzed is from the flint hitting it head on instead of at an angle. That will also destroy flints
very quickly.

[rfd]

if, in the side view pic of his rifle, it's at half cock, there's the core of the problem - incorrect flint angle and distance from the hammer steel.

[stubshaft]

When the cock is fully forward, the tip of the flint should be pointing directly at the touchhole. Try and adjust your flint so that it does. At half cock the flint should be slightly away from a closed frizzen face. I usually set mine up with a 1/64" clearance. You may also need to re-harden your frizzen, but getting the geometry right first will go a long way to giving you fewer misfires. Shooting a rock lock is like boolit casting. It looks easy, but, it takes awhile to be proficient...

[bedbugbilly]

What lock does your trade gun have on it?

Take a photo of the lock from the lock side with the frizzen open and the cock all the wy down in fired position and one with the frizzen closed and the cock on half cock. I'm assuming that it is a "trade gun" size lock so you are using 1 1/8' flints?

When the flint is clamped in the jaws (what are you using to wrap the flint?) it should be tight and square with the frozen face - I have a large Davis trade lock on my Fusin de Chasse and when I install the large flint on that lock, I close the frizzen and install the flint so that it just touches the closed frizzen - when the cock is in fired position, the front edge is above the center of the pan in line with the vent - but that will depend on if whoever built your gun has the vent positioned correctly - i.e. center of the pan.

Don't get discouraged . . . once you get the set up correct, you should have quick ignition. When you aim and fire, don't anticipate anything and keep your eyes on the target . . . everything else will happen when you pull the trigger. You'll get used to it!

[peter72]

Gents. Thanks for the info. I will post some more pics this evening.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[peter72]

Ok heres some pics.
Full, half cock and fired positions.
There is a gent here in Australia that can tune my lock. You might ask why I'm asking here. Im a person that wants to know the "whys" and it's good to know for the future.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170326/f60d25da4408f934ea86d2a936c65ec8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170326/edd218bdf96d68e5ddae0a468c4b236a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170326/7bccb6cff55b988cbbd75c861a062a48.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[GARD72977]

Thats a fancy lock for a trade gun. Looks nice

[pietro]

The 'Flinching' part is what holds me back from trying a flintlock, my fear is it would start a bad habit ?




FWIW, I've found that flinching goes away if/when the ignition is very fast, aka: "fast lock time" & the existence of a good/healthy spark from the lock.

Once upon a time, I had a .50cal Austin & Halleck (A&H) Mountain Rifle rocklock that ignited the charge virtually instantaneously - MUCH faster than any of my caplock rifles.


.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks for the photos. It looks like you have everything where it should be. I see that the lock is the "Lott" lock which was a common lock used on kit trade guns. My brother built one from the kits/parts that T of the W carried/carries a number of years ago. If I remember correctly, he had issues with the Lott lock in regards to sparking and had to have the frizzen hardened. You vent looks good and in the right place - positioned at the top of the pan level so when sparks hit the priming it flashes up in to the vent (as opposed to being positioned low in the pan and having to wait for the priming to burn down which will delay ignition). That lock, if the frizzen is hardened correctly, should shower that pan with sparks with no issues at all. My brother had his frizzen hardened by a guy that we knew who built locks. Unfortunately, he passed away a few years back.

If the frizzen needs hardening and you can't find anyone to do it who knows what they are doing, go over to the Longrifle site and inquire if anyone there can do it.

My brother used/uses his NW trade gun a lot. He eventually replaced the Lott lock with one of the large trade size locks that T of the W sells (Davis?). I have a Fusil de Chasse with the same (Davis?) lock on it and it is a very good and superior lock. I have a NW trade gun that is about 75% completed - I bought it from a guy who started it and never finished it. It didn't have the lock with it and I have passed up several "Lott" locks as I prefer the one that T of the W sells.

Don't get me wrong . . there is nothing wrong with the Lott locks and a lot of folks have them on their trade guns and they work just fine. But, if you continue to have problems . . . then I'd get someone to harden he frizzen. Perhaps T of the W could even steer you to someone if you give them a call or someone on here can do it. And don't get discouraged during the process . . . it will all come together for you. I have been shooting BP for 50 + years as well as having built a number of them and over the years, I've seen even what were considered the "best locks" have an issue with a soft frizzen.

There are a number of folks on this site who do knife making, forge work, etc. who are experienced with the hardening process and I would post an inquiry in the WTB section as well as possibly the gunsmith section and see if somebody responds.

Good luck to you and that's a mighty nice looking trade gun - enjoy and have fun!

[stubshaft]

From the pictures you posted it appears that the cock may need to be bent downward. The flint, or should I say the lower jaw of the cock is not pointing at the pan.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, the frizzen just might be inadequately hardened, but I am sure the flint is too long. Even when it fires, the ignition time is probably longer than it needs to be.

Even positioning the flint between two squares of sheet lead or leather, instead of one continuous piece, would allow it to come a little further back. If you have a lot of them, or can't get them just the right length, you could use a diamond burr to cut a groove in the rear edge, allowing it to fit a little around the clamping screw.

If you have the means to heat an improvised metal box, like a piece of pipe with two threaded caps, to red hardness for a while, you can harden a frizzen at least as well with animal charcoal as with commercial compounds. I've done it for other parts with a mixture of leather scraps and bone meal from a garden shop, but for my next attempt I've saved horn chips and sawdust, which some say is better, from my shepherd's crook-making attempts. You have to tip it out into water to quench it, and if you can arrange for the water to be aerated with bubbles, colour case-hardening is what you get.

[waksupi]

That definitely isn't a Lott that North Star made. All North Star locks have always been made in-house. No idea of the maker.

The flint is pointed too high, needs to be pointing at the pan.

If a flint needs back further in any gun, I cut a notch in the rear center of the leather, so I can move it back as far as possible.

[peter72]

I'm glad you mentioned the "Lott".
I didn't know what it meant.
The gun is a Pedersoli and I believe all their locks are made in house.
Once again, thankyou for all the replies, Ive learnt a lot.
I'm sending the lock off to have it tuned. Not 100% sure on what that entails?
Frizzen/flint orientation?
Frizzen hardening?

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[KCSO]

Upper Missouri Trading Co 402-388-4844 Doc's UMTC Hardening compound is the best I have ever used.

[JohnCWF]

I have the same Trade Gun. Lock geometry looks the same. Haven't noticed any appreciable lag time, and have had no failures to fire (yet). But I've only put about 20 rounds through it. I use plain round ball and tow (no patch). Going to try shot loads next. Please post an update when your lock comes back from tuning.

191877191878

[duckey]

Well for S and G's I put my lock into my Lyman GPR which I am just about to the finishing stage. I tried the Agate flint once and saw some gouging in the frozen (I was warned but curiosity got to me). I then put my TOTW English flint on and figure out where it needed to be based off all the input from this thread and noticed a big difference. Turned the lights down in the garage to see just how sparky it was. I think I got but the first shot will tell the truth. The post before mine shows a frozen with light scratches on the frozen and not gouging. I know gouging is not right but the light scratches are, I'm assuming. Is it necessary to recondition the frizzed surface over time? If so what is the proper method?

[swheeler]

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg234/kmw3291/cut%20flints_zps3y9yfigs.jpg (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/kmw3291/media/cut%20flints_zps3y9yfigs.jpg.html)

Yes, it looks like the flint is too long, and from the picture it looks like the frizzen is in the white? I have rehardened my frizzen 3 times and it is mottled blue or case colored after hardening. The photo is of a cut flint in it now but have used knapped English, French amber and my own Montana agate, all give 100% ignition that seems to me to be faster than all my percussion guns.

you can see the touch hole right below the flint in the photo and I believe this is the correct set up

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you have a camera that lets you leave the shutter open while you fire, in a dark room, you will get some spectacular photos, either for comparing different flint arrangements or just for fun.

[swheeler]

BIS if you are talking to me, that is my cell phone photo and they suck but best I got. It does make a shower of sparks though

[Ballistics in Scotland]

No, just something that could be interesting to anybody with a flintlock. It can show the direction the sparks are heading, and ignition is best if most of them go into the pan.

[OverMax]

There's more chert wear on this frizzen seen in a few shots than I've encountered on my rifle over 30 years. Before any bending work done to the cock other than re-case hardening the frizzen.
Just saying.
Consider swapping out the chert with some others product knapped out of area. As there is such a thing as one knapper's flint being harder than another's.

[waksupi]

There's more chert wear on this frizzen seen in a few shots than I've encountered on my rifle over 30 years. Before any bending work done to the cock other than re-case hardening the frizzen.
Just saying.
Consider swapping out the chert with some others product knapped out of area. As there is such a thing as one knapper's flint being harder than another's.


I've found the same thing. I have a supply of Rich Pierce's flints, and they definitely will chew up a frizzen, to the point I quit using them.

[peter72]

Recieved my lock back from the gent who did some work on it, he is a genius. 8 shots in a row and not 1 flash in the pan.
Let's not talk about how things went after that other than to say I need to continue working on my flinch.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170511/08954e9de56b34b09c721b4f35bac161.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[square butte]

Who did your lock work?

[peter72]

A gentleman in South Australia.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Whiterabbit]

Looks better.

What I find to be very telling is this:

In a dark room (not too dark), dry fire. You should see a shower of sparks hit square in the pan. If you have that plus a good flash hole than your lock time will be as fast as a cap lock.

If you get a shower of sparks but they hit forward of the pan, behind, you have work to do, either hammer tuning, frizzen shaping, something like that. I'm no expert on this, I tinker till I get it.

If you don't get a shower of sparks, gotta change the flint or harden the frizzen. Dunno how to tell the difference. I get poor spark with english flints and GREAT spark with french. I think others get the opposite. I think most people chuck cut agate in the trash. I know I do.

For flint hardening, I've had good luck with brownells surface hardening compound, even though it's not kasenite. My technique is to polish the frizzen, including those gouges you got there, till you are mirror smooth. Get them all out. I chuck the frizzen with locking pliers on the hinge, so the frizzen face is outward facing. Then heat with oxyfuel to really, really hot. I could never get it to work with a propane torch, though I did get success once with a turkey frier. Though that was a huge waste of propane. Oxy-fuel makes the work easy. I'd pass it a few times in the compound, get it nicely exposed. Just the frizzen face. First try, I'd oil quench because "they say" you will crack your frizzen if you water quench it. Then put into service.

If you still gouge it, repeat, but water quench. When I quench my frizzen I try only to submerge the frizzen face in the water, and minimize the quench on the backside of the frizzen and certainly avoid the hinge. Just personal insurance against it shattering when I fire it. That has worked out for me REALLY well. But maybe I'm just lucky.

But if you can get that shower of sparks into the center of the pan (regardless of where the flint is pointing, where it hits the frizzen, etc), then I'll bet that lock time will have you flinching way after that ball is already on its way down range.

[toot]

LOTT, locks were made in ITALY. a very long time ago I had one on a trade musket and it had trouble making enough sparks, sent it to CURLY GASTUMPSKY, long sense gone. he was the original owner of NORTH STAR GUN'S I believe, because it was a very long time ago, and he informed me that they were the locks that he and IRMA, his wife used on there trade guns and he said that they were made in ITALY. he made it spark.

[waksupi]

LOTT, locks were made in ITALY. a very long time ago I had one on a trade musket and it had trouble making enough sparks, sent it to CURLY GASTUMPSKY, long sense gone. he was the original owner of NORTH STAR GUN'S I believe, because it was a very long time ago, and he informed me that they were the locks that he and IRMA, his wife used on there trade guns and he said that they were made in ITALY. he made it spark.

I beg to differ. I'm currently building the last guns for North Star West, and I knew Curly for many years. Curly had made all of the lock part patterns, and the wax casts were sent out to be cast, and then returned for final polish and assembly. The same patterns are still being used with little modification. The same has held through to this day. Maybe Bob will see this thread, and add in if that varied at all when he owned the company.