45 acp parent case?

[Hickory]

What was the parent case of the 45 acp?
Or was the 45 acp an original concept?

[.455 Webley]

30-06

[RPRNY]

Original JM Browning design.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

.45 Schofield

[Outpost75]

.380 ACP was introduced in 1908.

The .45 ACP is a direct up-scale of the .380 ACP to .45

[bedbugbilly]

Wikipedia is your best friend . . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

[ReloaderFred]

The 9x19 was introduced in 1902, so it may have influenced the design of the .45 acp as much as any other cartridge.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[pmer]

A while ago I saw a '06 case that suffered case/head separation and it would've gotten lost in a bucket of 45 ACP brass. I joked that's how JMB got the idea.

[17nut]

The 1911 ended up as a further development of the 38 Auto pistol JMB made for the initial trails.
So the whole pistol was pretty much set for 1.275" cartridge length.

[RPRNY]

the 45 ACP has no parent case. It was designed by JMB. That it may be similar to the .380 does not make the .380 the parent case

[Wayne Dobbs]

There are so many stories and influences to the .45 ACP that we will never know the total and true story. The performance was clearly influenced by nearly 50 years of .44 and .45 bore pistol performance on man and beast in war, gunfights, Indian fights, etc. The Scholfield's 230 grain .45 bullet at 725 fps (nominal) was the most recent example and I think it clearly guided the thinking of the time. I wish we could time travel and see what really happened, especially to see JMB in action. I've always said that the aliens brought him here because his ability was beyond belief, given the times and technology available.

[Geezer in NH]

30/03 to find a case to cut off early last century.

Why would JMB make a special new case he was defiantly not stupid and using an existing case modified would be much easier.

The 380 came from a cutoff 9mm IMHO being a blow back he cut the case back so no high pressure 9mm would be a worry.

[John Boy]

What was the parent case of the 45 acp?
45 ACP - no other parent case

[35remington]

The diameter of the case near the solid head is the same as the 30-06 but the extractor groove is much larger on the 45 ACP.

FWIW.

[blackhawk man]

I read a very interesting post a couple years ago by a very knowledgeable former gunsmith and moderator on another forum who said JMB based the 45 a.c.p. case on a 30-40 Krag that was cut down, which he, along with Colt then modified. Also in that post he wrote that JMB approached the Hercules powder company and it was determined that a smokeless shotgun powder they had recently developed had the ideal burn rate for the new pistol cartridge. This powder later became available to the public, and because of it's "unique" double-base design, was called, yup you guessed it, Unique.

[gwpercle]

The US Army wanted a 45 cal. bullet so just makes sense that JMB designed the case around the bullet, the velocity , the fact that it would be loaded with smokeless powder sort of all conspired together to have it work out to what it is. Interesting that shorter and longer cases have come and gone but the original 1911 design keeps winning out. And even more amazing is the fact that John Browning did it all without the use of a computer, just think what he could have invented if he had a computer and a Smart Phone...

[jcren]

Always heard that the army spec'd a 45 with at least 80% of 45 colt power. While simular, the 06 has slightly different extractor groove dimensions, so not a direct parent.

[FergusonTO35]

Why would JMB make a special new case he was defiantly not stupid and using an existing case modified would be much easier.

The 380 came from a cutoff 9mm IMHO being a blow back he cut the case back so no high pressure 9mm would be a worry.

The .380 is most definitely not a cut down 9x19, the bullet diameter and primer size is about all they have in common. As far as I am aware, JMB derived the .380 from his earlier 9mm Browning Long, itself a variant of the previous .38 ACP.

[bedbugbilly]

And let's not forget that the Army went from 45 to 38 which was deemed insufficient against the natives during the Philippine Insurrection. Thus, back to the 45 again.

[w5pv]

They don't kick as much when shot with 45 acp that the reason all your elite forces still use the 45 acp.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I read a very interesting post a couple years ago by a very knowledgeable former gunsmith and moderator on another forum who said JMB based the 45 a.c.p. case on a 30-40 Krag that was cut down, which he, along with Colt then modified. Also in that post he wrote that JMB approached the Hercules powder company and it was determined that a smokeless shotgun powder they had recently developed had the ideal burn rate for the new pistol cartridge. This powder later became available to the public, and because of it's "unique" double-base design, was called, yup you guessed it, Unique.

Although the original loading used 5.0 of Bullseye with the 230 FMJ.

[Wayne Dobbs]

They don't kick as much when shot with 45 acp that the reason all your elite forces still use the 45 acp.

Actually, most of the "elite forces" are in 9mm pistols. MARSOC still has the new M45 Colt Rail guns, but look like they're going Glock 19. CAG (Delta) is using Glock .40's, while the other units are in a mix of Glock 17 and Glock 19 pistols.

[ReloaderFred]

Although the original loading used 5.0 of Bullseye with the 230 FMJ.

That's the load listed on the 20 round GI boxes I have from WW I, 5.0 grains of Bullseye.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Char-Gar]

That's the load listed on the 20 round GI boxes I have from WW I, 5.0 grains of Bullseye.

Hope this helps.
.

Fred


The round and the pistol were designed about the same 5/BE. Many millions if not billions of factory and arsenal rounds were loaded with this same load. To channel Townsend Whelen,"Bulleye is never a mistake in the 45 ACP", or the 38 Special for that matter.

[w5pv]

My nephew who just retired say that they try to shove the 9mm stuff on them but the grunts still want their 45's.I don't know if that is fact or something that he has came up with.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I thought there was a .40 or .41 caliber prototype cartridge that served as the 45acp's parent, or at least inspiration.

I do not recall where I heard this, so I could be wrong.

I don't think it was a production round, though.

Regards,

Josh

[blackhawk man]

Although the original loading used 5.0 of Bullseye with the 230 FMJ.

Yes, of course Bullseye became the standard. I have no way of knowing for sure if Unique was used in the development. I was just passing on a story. Though I do respect the source.

[prestonj12]

I saw a documentary one time. Seems JMB almost never drew anything up. He built it and his brothers documented it. Brilliant guy that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigslug]

No parent case, but I guess an argument could be made that the 7x57 Mauser is sort of the daddy of all rimless cartridges designed for mechanical, controlled-round feeding. Certainly, it's the daddy of the ubiquitous .473" case head.

[jrmartin1964]

I read a very interesting post a couple years ago by a very knowledgeable former gunsmith and moderator on another forum who said JMB based the 45 a.c.p. case on a 30-40 Krag that was cut down, which he, along with Colt then modified. Also in that post he wrote that JMB approached the Hercules powder company and it was determined that a smokeless shotgun powder they had recently developed had the ideal burn rate for the new pistol cartridge. This powder later became available to the public, and because of it's "unique" double-base design, was called, yup you guessed it, Unique.

A good story, but on close examination it doesn't quite hold water:

1) A .30-40 Krag cartridge case measures approximately 0.457" at the head, just above the rim. Even if trimmed to an appropriate length and with the body taper removed, it is seriously doubtful a .45 caliber projectile could be successfully seated. I have several .44 Magnum cases that were made from .30-40 brass, and they had to be reamed to accept a mere 0.429" projectile. Think about it: a 0.452" projectile is only going to leave 0.005" total for case mouth thickness when reamed to accept it, resulting in an extremely thin case mouth thickness of only 0.0025".

2) Unique was a development of the Laflin & Rand Powder Company, not Hercules, c.1900.

3) Unique's original intended use was as a reduced load powder in .30 U.S. (.30-40 Krag) and U.S. Service Revolver (.38 Long Colt) cartridges.

4) There was nothing "unique" about Unique's double-base (nitroglycerin/nitrocellulose) chemistry. The entire smokeless powder output of the Laflin & Rand company was double-base, beginning with W.-A. .30 in 1898 (actually, a development of the American Powder Co. in 1894). The Laflin & Rand Powder Company, and its product line, was absorbed by DuPont in 1902. The L&R powders were continued under DuPont until 1912, when they were transferred to Hercules. It was not until this time that Unique was regarded and marketed a shotgun powder and pistol powder.

191807

FWIW, I have a 20-round box of Frankford Arsenal produced .45 Model 1911 cartridges, dated 1914. According to the box's label, the cartridges inside (headstamped "F A 10 14" and "F A 12 14") were loaded with a powder identified as "H. No.1 Pistol Powder, Lot No.4", with a reported muzzle velocity of 800 f.p.s. +/-25 f.p.s.

191808

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you choose your bullet and think you need a hundredth of an inch neck thickness, you get a neck diameter. If you want a slight taper in the case for ease of extraction, you get a base diameter. I doubt if the design was more complicated than that. It was intended as a military cartridge, produced in very large numbers, so I don't think the ability to be made from existing cases or with existing machinery came into it.

Cols. Thompson and La Garde conducted the Chicago stockyard trials which led to the adoption of the .45AP, Thompson being the ordnance officer and La Garde a military surgeon. They actually wanted a rather different kind of bullet, heavier, blunter and thinner jacketed - not so much for expansion as to prevent glancing off major bones, which other than the major nervous system they judged to be the only way a pistol could have dependably fast stopping power. They knew as they proposed it that it would probably be rejected in a desire to comply with the Hague Convention. The relatively light weight was probably because the pistol, deriving from earlier work on a .41 version, was designed around a 200gr. bullet.

[Artful]

Hello,

I thought there was a .40 or .41 caliber prototype cartridge that served as the 45acp's parent, or at least inspiration.

I do not recall where I heard this, so I could be wrong.

I don't think it was a production round, though.

Regards,

Josh

Josh go to the link above
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP



Colt had been working with Browning on a .41 caliber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_caliber) cartridge in 1904, and in 1905, when the Cavalry asked for a .45 caliber equivalent, Colt modified the pistol design to fire an enlarged version of the prototype .41 round. The result from Colt was the Model 1905 and the new .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge.

The original round that passed the testing fired a 200 grain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(measure))(13 g (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram)) bullet at 900 ft/s (275 m/s), but after a number of rounds of revisions between Winchester Repeating Arms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Repeating_Arms_Company), Frankford Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankford_Arsenal), and Union Metallic Cartridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Arms), it ended up using a 230 grain (14.9 g) bullet fired at a nominal velocity of 850 ft/s (260 m/s). The resulting .45-caliber cartridge, named the .45 ACP, was similar in performance to the .45 Schofield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Schofield) cartridge, and only slightly less powerful (but significantly shorter) than the .45 Colt cartridges the Cavalry was using.
...
The cartridge/pistol combination was quite successful but not satisfactory for U.S. military purposes. Over time, a series of improved designs were offered, culminating in the adoption in 1911 of the "Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911", a 1.273 in (32.3 mm) long round with a bullet weight of 230 grains (15 g). The very first production, at Frankford Arsenal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankford_Arsenal), was marked "F A 8 11", for the August 1911 date.
The cartridge was designed by John Browning for Colt, but the most influential person in selecting the cartridge was Army Ordnance member Gen. John T. Thompson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_T._Thompson). Thompson insisted on a real "man stopper" pistol, following the poor showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In fact even the .45 revolvers, mostly using the Army's Schofield round, which replaced the Colt .38 were far from satisfactory in stopping fanatical attackers. It required a hit on the central nervous system or major bones.

I've seen photographs of the famous Antonio Caspi, who apparently wasn't a juramentado or even a moro, just an ordinary Filipino in disagreement with legislation. The entry and exit wounds were identified, and it looks like one or two of them may have been inflicted while he was lying on the ground.

[Wayne Dobbs]

In fact even the .45 revolvers, mostly using the Army's Schofield round, which replaced the Colt .38 were far from satisfactory in stopping fanatical attackers. It required a hit on the central nervous system or major bones.

I've seen photographs of the famous Antonio Caspi, who apparently wasn't a juramentado or even a moro, just an ordinary Filipino in disagreement with legislation. The entry and exit wounds were identified, and it looks like one or two of them may have been inflicted while he was lying on the ground.

The .30/40 Krag round didn't work very well on the Moros either. In reality, nothing you can hold in your own two hands and fire easily is going to be 100% on determined attackers over the long haul.

[376Steyr]

Just to add to the confusion, I seem to recall reading (a very long time ago) that sometime between the Wars the Government actually cut off fired 30-06 cases and made them into 45 ACP cases as a cost-saving move. Anybody know anything about this, or am I totally wrong?

[W.R.Buchanan]

The parent case is the .30-06 which was derived from the 7x57 Mauser cartridge. IE: essentially the same .473 dia. Case Head.

The extractor groove may have been modified during production but the first ones were cut off .30-06 cases.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

A good story, but on close examination it doesn't quite hold water:

1) A .30-40 Krag cartridge case measures approximately 0.457" at the head, just above the rim. Even if trimmed to an appropriate length and with the body taper removed, it is seriously doubtful a .45 caliber projectile could be successfully seated. I have several .44 Magnum cases that were made from .30-40 brass, and they had to be reamed to accept a mere 0.429" projectile. Think about it: a 0.452" projectile is only going to leave 0.005" total for case mouth thickness when reamed to accept it, resulting in an extremely thin case mouth thickness of only 0.0025".

2) Unique was a development of the Laflin & Rand Powder Company, not Hercules, c.1900.

3) Unique's original intended use was as a reduced load powder in .30 U.S. (.30-40 Krag) and U.S. Service Revolver (.38 Long Colt) cartridges.

4) There was nothing "unique" about Unique's double-base (nitroglycerin/nitrocellulose) chemistry. The entire smokeless powder output of the Laflin & Rand company was double-base, beginning with W.-A. .30 in 1898 (actually, a development of the American Powder Co. in 1894). The Laflin & Rand Powder Company, and its product line, was absorbed by DuPont in 1902. The L&R powders were continued under DuPont until 1912, when they were transferred to Hercules. It was not until this time that Unique was regarded and marketed a shotgun powder and pistol powder.

191807

FWIW, I have a 20-round box of Frankford Arsenal produced .45 Model 1911 cartridges, dated 1914. According to the box's label, the cartridges inside (headstamped "F A 10 14" and "F A 12 14") were loaded with a powder identified as "H. No.1 Pistol Powder, Lot No.4", with a reported muzzle velocity of 800 f.p.s. +/-25 f.p.s.

191808

The Laflin & Rand Powder Company history has always fascinated me. One of my dad's friends had a medium sized powder can collection that was to be mine but they got thrown when he passed. If I remember correctly he had a most if not all of the Laflin and Rand cans.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/GeneralReference/L&R-Smokeless.pdf

http://www.indianahistory.org/our-collections/collection-guides/laflin-and-rand-powder-mill-explosion-collection.pdf

http://www2.dupont.com/Phoenix_Heritage/en_US/1902_h_detail.html

[jrmartin1964]

The Laflin & Rand Powder Company history has always fascinated me. One of my dad's friends had a medium sized powder can collection that was to be mine but they got thrown when he passed. If I remember correctly he had a most if not all of the Laflin and Rand cans.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/GeneralReference/L&R-Smokeless.pdf

http://www.indianahistory.org/our-collections/collection-guides/laflin-and-rand-powder-mill-explosion-collection.pdf

http://www2.dupont.com/Phoenix_Heritage/en_US/1902_h_detail.html

That is quite the shame about the powder cans. Sad that they just tossed them out with the trash. I suppose it really does work both ways: One man's trash is another man's treasure, and one man's treasure is another man's trash.

Thank you for the links!!

[blackhawk man]

jrmartin1964,
Thanks for the clarification and informative post. I am always glad for the chance to learn something new, or unlearn something that was incorrect. That's one of the great things about this forum.

[blackhawk man]

Hello,

I thought there was a .40 or .41 caliber prototype cartridge that served as the 45acp's parent, or at least inspiration.

I do not recall where I heard this, so I could be wrong.

I don't think it was a production round, though.

Regards,

Josh

Well, this got me thinking. Sure enough, according to a page on Wiki, apparently JMB and Colt were indeed working on a .41 caliber cartridge when the Army said they wanted it in .45. So they made a larger version of the prototype. If there's any truth to the cut down 30-40 Krag thing (not saying there is), maybe it was that it inspired the case for this .41 prototype.

[RPRNY]

Inspiration is one thing. Speculate away. But there is no parent case for 45 acp. It was born fully formed from JMB's feverish brain.

[Texas by God]

I agree it wasn't based on another case. The .473" case head first appeared on the 1888 Commission cartridge- the 7.92x57mm(.318" j bore)- not the 7x57. I have seen a photo of the Colt prototype .41 Rimless-Smokeless pistol. It's similar to the 1905 .45 two link design. The wierd part is Winchester used the .45 ACP extractor groove for the .308 Win/7.62 NATO.
Best, Thomas.

[prestonj12]

Wouldn't you love to go back in time and interview JMB?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk