W German Sig P225s

[Angus]

Has anyone bought one of these? They seem to be going for a very reasonable sum, and I haven;t read any complaints about them elsewhere on the net. However, as a cast guy, I'd like to know how they are with cast boolits. Is the bore oversized like is traditional with 9mms? I'm applying for my permit next month, and would like to have something lined up for when it gets approved.

[9.3X62AL]

No hands-on with this lot of P-225s, but quite a bit with later variants imported to USA in late 1980s. These European-issued P-225s may have bottom-release magazine systems rather than the USA thumb-button release system--inquire before buying.

Most of the SIG-Sauer 9mm pistols I've dealt with had somewhat wide grooves (.356"-.357") and throats, but their chambers aren't as sloppy as many service-grade 9mm's. I use .357" castings in 92/6/2 alloy in my two SIG pistols, and both shoot very well using Javelina lube. I suggest the use of truncated cone (Lee's is a GREAT design) or something similar to Lyman #356402 that has two wide drive bands between the lube groove, instead of a RN design with one drive band and an indistinct ogival form ahead of the lube groove. This latter design seems to not engage rifling as well as the TC's two drive bands, and accuracy suffers accordingly. Most 9mm barrels use a 1-10" twist that requires all the "bite" you can get at the high pressures present in the 9mm.

[smirker]

Good guns in variouis conditions.Getting one this late into "Big Selloff" you will have problems finding magazines and grips.Try to get as many magazines in the deal as you can.

[MtGun44]

I have two, they just seemed like a good deal. Nearly new, looks like only
one mag has ever been loaded. Quality manufacture, not super accurate but
you wouldn't want to stand out there. 3-6" @ 25yds depending on the ammo.

Mine feeds everything I have tried, one friend says his doesn't like JHP, mine
feeds all styles. Lee TC works real well size .357", as bore is about .3563 IIRC,
I am far from home and running on memory.

Decent guns, I still hate the "conventional double action" for the really disconcerting
jump in trigger pull length and wt from 1st shot to subsequent. I actually
ADed one round (into the target) because after the first heavy long dbl
action pull, I forgot that the second pull would be MUCH lighter and shorter,
so "OOOPS".

Comes with the silliest clown holster you could ever imagine. How about a
three stroke draw? The Germans are nothing if not safe.

Short version - worth the money if you like dbl action 9mms, carries about
like a Colt LTWT Commander.

Comes with 2 mags no more available currently, since many pistols on the
market, I expect this to change in the next year or whatever.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Mtn Gun points out a quirk of D/A autopistols that can plague users not accustomed to the "transition shooting" required to step down from the first long/strong trigger stroke to the short/sharp stroke of succeeding rounds. This was a HUGE question in the late 1980's when my agency added autopistols to their approved sidearm schedule, and we addressed it with training sequences that repeated the transition until it became "muscle memory".

What we did--full magazine, 7 yard line--draw and fire 2 shots, then decock. Repeat, ad nauseum. Passing grade after the training process was 10 shots in the black on a small pistol bull @ 7 yards.

[Dale53]

Here is the web site of our "local" mail order place:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Sig_Sauer_P225_P6_9mm_Pistol.html

I have bought a number of guns from them (walk in) and they are a reliable outfit.

Dale53

[Slowpoke]

Mtn Gun points out a quirk of D/A autopistols that can plague users not accustomed to the "transition shooting" required to step down from the first long/strong trigger stroke to the short/sharp stroke of succeeding rounds. This was a HUGE question in the late 1980's when my agency added autopistols to their approved sidearm schedule, and we addressed it with training sequences that repeated the transition until it became "muscle memory".

What we did--full magazine, 7 yard line--draw and fire 2 shots, then decock. Repeat, ad nauseum. Passing grade after the training process was 10 shots in the black on a small pistol bull @ 7 yards.

You mean your dept. didn't think much of Jeff Cooper's method of handling DA auto's, I think he called it shot cocking. :)

good luck

[MtGun44]

After about a zillion rounds thru various 1911 pattern pistols, then a moderate
amount of DA revolvers, the transition from DA to SA with the same gun is a
bit of a trick to pick for this old fart. I kinda like the guns but I will do a bunch of the
2 shot drills the next time I go to the range. (Thanks Al !) I think if I **had** to make a really
good hit with the first shot and had just a second, I'd thumb the hammer back
with the weak hand - knowing that is very poor form and all. . . . :roll:

Bill

[ChuckS1]

I think you're talking about the P6, which was marketed as the P225 here in the US. I have a P225 and it's my favorite 9mm, beating my CZ-75 that I bought in Germany back in 1984 and a T-series Hi Power.

I get best results with 147 grain cast bullets.

[schreibwy]

I bought a P6 Sig after a friend bought one. Another friend after seeing mine bought his. A third friend after borrowing mine for a plate shoot ordered his. They are well made, reasonably accurate, and utterly dependable.

Like all handguns this isn't a buy and defend yourself miracle, it is a buy and practice lots tool so you can defend yourself. I will start doing the "two shot" drill, but so far drawing and cocking is just as fast and a lot more accurate for me.

[shotman]

you guys that have those try to get a back up extractor that is the only down side to the pistol. The later sig has an external ejector/extractor that is real nice. I bought a new 226 in 357sig, another barrel and have a 40 cal. Then I bought a 9mm barrel, had to go to a real lite spring but it has never failed rick

[S.R.Custom]

You mean your dept. didn't think much of Jeff Cooper's method of handling DA auto's, I think he called it shot cocking. :)

Is that the one where you're pulling the trigger in DA mode as you're clearing leather? That's how I learned to deal with it at Pin & Plate matches...

DA/SA is easier to deal with when you associate the two with different functions-- the heavy DA pull works nicely if you start pulling the trigger as you draw the pistol from the holster, timing the shot with when you just come on target. When done like this, you don't even think about the transition, as it becomes the difference between the first draw shot and the other on-target shots, which by their natures are very different beasts to start with.

[Slowpoke]

Is that the one where you're pulling the trigger in DA mode as you're clearing leather? That's how I learned to deal with it at Pin & Plate matches...

DA/SA is easier to deal with when you associate the two with different functions-- the heavy DA pull works nicely if you start pulling the trigger as you draw the pistol from the holster, timing the shot with when you just come on target. When done like this, you don't even think about the transition, as it becomes the difference between the first draw shot and the other on-target shots, which by their natures are very different beasts to start with.

Look up Cooper's Commentaries: Vol.12 No 7 -- Google

good shooting

[9.3X62AL]

Uh, NO--"shot cocking" was viewed with great disfavor, because once the very perishable skill of D/A autopistol shooting perished, most of the first shots went places other than the B-27 target. Not a huge issue on the target range, but shots into the background in real life have the potential to strike things like kids, moms, dads..........all bad.

One other drill I instituted on quals days was to draw extra ammo and do some kind of informal "warm-up" sequence that challenged the shooters right outta the gate. One such drill was 5 rounds totally unsupported in 5 seconds on a B-27, from holstered/snapped at 20-25 yards. Hits inside the "8-bottle" were good to go, all others were zero score. Once everyone fired that drill--and many shooters threw that first D/A shot into another ZIP Code--a short consciousness-raising bit got intro'd, something like "Your first shot MUST connect well, or your survival chances in an armed encounter degrade MARKEDLY. Your response is reactive to a presented lethal threat, so you are already at a pronounced disadvantage from the git-go. Your first shot MUST HIT WELL, and all succeeding shots fired MUST HIT WELL. Misses are wasted oppurtunities to survive."

Another firing sequence followed, and the shooters generally did a lot better on their second and subsequent strings. The shooting was slower, but more accurate. At the end of 50 rounds, both speed and accuracy were improved significantly. Whoever said "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast" said a mouthful. A naturally-occurring progression. At the end of the session, I encouraged the shooters to fire their 50 rounds a month in this fashion--2 strings of 5 rounds, 2 strings of 10 rounds, then fill up the mag(s) with the remaining rounds to get the feel of firing and emptying the pistol "as carried". I strongly suggested that they buy another box of rounds per month, and to shoot monthly to preserve those perishable skills.

Same goes for citizen CCW folks as for deputy sheriffs. Contact dynamics of your lethal threat management scenarios differs little from those of LEOs, and none of this is classified info. Despite the strident stupidities of the hoplophobic politicos, citizen CCWs (licensed or otherwise) are The Good Guys, too.

My own view--Col. Cooper's description of the double-action autopistol as "an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem" is classic. My agency didn't adopt Glock pistols in 1987 when autos first came on board. These came aboard in 1992, along with the 40 S&W and 380 ACP calibers. I pointed out in the company of a few other less administratively astute rangemasters that the Glock's trigger was essentially little different than that of a 1911A1 or Browning High Power, so why not add on John Moses' offspring? No dice--no matter how strong a hand you've drawn, admin pogues always have 5 aces. Hated that.

[Geraldo]

Is that the one where you're pulling the trigger in DA mode as you're clearing leather? That's how I learned to deal with it at Pin & Plate matches...


That sounds like a good way to get DQed in the matches I shot. In real life, it has the same or even worse potential than Cooper's "shot cocking." What happens if you fire one before clearing leather? Don't help your opponent by wounding yourself.

Like all shooting skills, it's how much you practice. Do the drills, shoot the same pistol or system consistently and you'll do fine.

[S.R.Custom]

...What happens if you fire one before clearing leather? ...Like all shooting skills, it's how much you practice.

Indeed. As I like to point out whenever the discussion of the DA/SA pistol arises, it's not an issue of inherent design flaw, but one of practice and proficiency.

That said, I've always liked the DA pull of my W. German Sig P220. What with the half-cock click (which is more like 25%) and the trigger weight stacking of the remainder of the pull, you pretty much know at all times where the hammer is in relation to the release point. With sufficient practice, it's one of those things you don't even think about and just do, like knowing when to start aiming the fork at your face when you eat... ;)

[9.3X62AL]

Hear that, Super Mag--the P-220/226/228 have very nice D/A triggers, and the whole transition shooting question was much larger in theory than in practice. Like most shooting skill sets, it is perishable, and needs to be re-visited with some frequency. Most posters here don't have the aversion to range time that a lot of LEOs have, a curious anomaly that always was a poser for me.

[Geraldo]

Supermag,

I knew a kid in high school who used the same technique right up to the point where he put a bullet into his strong side leg.

Rather than violate rules of firearms safety, why not get your pistol up so that your sights are in your line of vision earlier in you drawstroke and then take up slack as you extend your arms more fully toward the target? When I went to Barnhart's this was the technique he pushed me to use with my 92F. It sounds weird, but it's fast and you don't risk a self-inflicted GSW.